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Offline digitaltrains  
#1 Posted : 22 October 2014 12:51:45(UTC)
digitaltrains

Serbia   
Joined: 22/10/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: CENTRAL SERBIA, BELGRADE
Hello, all!


I saw that Marklin is literarely cheating their customers with new cheap 3 poll motor and selling their models for hundreds of Euros. Cursing

Now, my question is does anybody know exact dimensions of that motor (width, hight, lenght) and can it be replaced with Faulhaber or Maxxon, perhaps? My trains are "long liners" and I have serious dobts that it will stand longer then a year or two and wasting money on a trash is not luxury that I can afford.

Also, is it true that the same motor is mounted in BR45 steam loco? What about new BR05 (cabin front)?

Thank You on your suggestions and informations!
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Offline steventrain  
#2 Posted : 22 October 2014 12:55:00(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
37455 BR45, 37923 BR41 and 39008 BR01 came with 3-poles motors (I cancelled order it).ThumbDown

Insider 39053 cab forward came with 5-poles motors.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:00:13(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Please use the search function of this forum and you will discover a lot of discussion, ad nauseum I would say, on the Marklin 3 pole motors.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Purellum  
#4 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:20:06(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Does anybody know for sure that the 3-pole motor is "cheap"? ( And "not good"? )

Has anybody tested the new 3-pole motor against the 5-pole motor, including the decoders?

When Märklin switched from the first 3-pole motors to the 5-pole motor, it was seen as an improvement, and it was IMHO.

Since then, both the engineering of the motors and the decoders have improved a lot, making the new 3-pole motors
completely different compared to the old one, and at the same time totally changing the motor-control-part of the decoders,
giving much better control.

For the motors, e.g. a little build-in twist on the rotor, instead of making it straight in the old-fashioned way,
makes it a completely different motor type; but still 3-pole. Does the new motors have a straight or a twisted rotor?

Has anybody ever had a new 3-pole motor fail, due to too many hours of running?

I don't have any locos with the new 3-pole motor, and don't have a H0 layout at all, why I can't do the test myself;
but in all my 1-gauge locos, 3-pole motors have never been a problem.

Decoders however, have changed a lot, e.g. the frequency of the PWM has doubled ( more than once, I believe ),
making an older loco with a newer decoder a fantastic and silent runner, where before it was "humming" at low speeds.

I really want to know the facts, instead of the guesses based on bashing from people who don't know how a DC-motor really works.

Per.

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Offline biedmatt  
#5 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:27:07(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Does anybody know for sure that the 3-pole motor is "cheap"? ( And "not good"? )


Per.

Cool


I think you'll find your answer here. According to David, this is a Marklin service person who would be knowledgeable of the motor.

https://www.marklin-user...t-s-back.aspx#post470836

Edit: Hopefully we will be able to source a third party replacement so we won't need to constantly replace these 3-pole motors. I wonder if Marklin offers quantity discounts on spare parts?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Purellum  
#6 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:36:39(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I'm sorry; but I don't see how over-oiling or over-greasing can be a problem related to the motor?

It is of cause possible ( But only a guess ) that Märklin get these motors from the motor-manufacturer, with the
oil / grease already applied; but that is still a problem that can be solved, and has nothing to do with the
different design of the newer motor, compared to the older.

Just as if the motor is over-oiled / over-greased at the Märklin factory, it is just a revised work instruction to the
people applying the oil / grease, and the problem is solved.

Has anybody had any problems claiming a new motor from Märklin in case of failure, caused by over-oiling /over-greasing
or in case of motor faliure due to too many running hours?

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

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Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:37:03(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Does anybody know for sure that the 3-pole motor is "cheap"? ( And "not good"? )


Per.

Cool


I think you'll find your answer here. According to David, this is a Marklin service person who would be knowledgeable of the motor.

https://www.marklin-user...t-s-back.aspx#post470836

Edit: Hopefully we will be able to source a third party replacement so we won't need to constantly replace these 3-pole motors. I wonder if Marklin offers quantity discounts on spare parts?


Hi Matt,

Dion runs the Marklin service for the New Zealand agents, and has seen a fair few failures due to overlubrication. This does not mean the motor is bad, it just means the lubrication has been incorrectly applied. Hopefully it will lead to a correction of the factory lubrication procedures to prevent this from happening in the future.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline RayF  
#8 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:41:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
By the way, if you look up these motors in the Marklin spare parts lists they are quoted at 45 euro, so these are not the same cheap motors installed in "Hobby" locos.

"15 E196528 Motor kpl. 45,00 €"


http://www.maerklin.de/s...&artikelnummer=39644
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Janne75  
#9 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:47:45(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi all,

I did an endurance test with my 29539 DB BR 81 steam loco equipped with 3-pole motor. Test went well and it ran in that test 210 hours with short maintenance breaks (greasing the worm drive like it should be done). See on page 4 posting number 176 in my topic:

29539 in can motor endurance test

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Purellum  
#10 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:55:54(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Thank you Janne ThumpUp

I do BTW find it amazing, that a person signs up to this forum today, just to tell us that a motor he has newer seen or tested
is cheap and not worth buying.

Per.

RollEyes


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Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:57:47(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

I did an endurance test with my 29539 DB BR 81 steam loco equipped with 3-pole motor. Test went well and it ran in that test 210 hours with short maintenance breaks (greasing the worm drive like it should be done). See on page 4 posting number 176 in my topic:

29539 in can motor endurance test

Regards,
Janne


Just to add that this loco carries the even cheaper "hobby" type of can motor, which costs 29.50 euro from Marklin

"E159110 Motor 29,50 €"

The higher quality motor in the more expensive models should be even better.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline biedmatt  
#12 Posted : 22 October 2014 13:59:10(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I agree, if it a problem of too much lubrication, that is not a motor problem. But it may be more than just that, see paragraph 2 below. I does become my problem and by extension Marklin's when the motor fails. Marklin is an international company with customers all over the world. It gets damn expensive to send lokos back to them for repair even if it's covered by warranty.

From what I read in the post I linked above, there appears to be a problem with the quality of the brushes used in the motors. Lubrication seems to cause early failure of the brushes. This AFAIK, is not typical of Marklin's other motors. Perhaps the factory employees have been caught out by brushes that do not survive as much lubrication as they have been accustom. None the less, when a Marklin service organization states he has replaced all the motors in one particular loko and some more than once, they have a problem.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Janne75  
#13 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:12:23(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
There are some loco types with new 3-pole motors which has a design problem. By this I mean when there is the greasing point located so the grease will go too easily inside of the motor itself. But it is not the motors fault. All motors brushes get damaged if they will get too much grease or oil on them as they will go softer and deteriorate. In that 29539 there is not such a problem as the worm drive is located differently without any grease going inside the motor. But for example some BR 94.5´s have this bad design. Motor is ok, but the user (or better to say Märklin) should double check there is not too much grease added so it can´t go inside of the motor. In my opinion this is a design flaw, but the motor itself is ok anyway.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Purellum  
#14 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:13:49(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

No brushes likes oil or grease, IMHO this has been the case since the first DC-motor was build.

Quote:
None the less, when a Marklin service organization states he has replaced all the motors in one particular loko and some more than once, they have a problem.


Note that he wrote "In all the locos he had seen"

Quote:
I've had to replace every motor on this model I've seen to date and sometimes twice replaced before I worked out what was occurring and hassled M for real a fix.


He is a service agent, so he sees defect locos sent in for repair. He's statement only tells me that he has never seen a loco
with a defect decoder, a broken gear or whatever defect one could imagine to have repaired under warranty.

Since he also addressed Märklin regarding the problem, we can at least hope that the problem will be solved.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
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Offline biedmatt  
#15 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:24:00(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
My problem with the 3-pole motor has always been the cost cutting measure taken by Marklin. Marklin has always stood for quality. Over the years they trumpeted loud and long improvements made in their lokos. These motors have been supplied in a stealthy manor that causes one to wonder about their motives.

3-poles in and of themself do not cause me concern. I know I can get them to run well with the ESU decoders I install in my lokos.

I was worried about the life of the motors. Janne's test results made me worry less about their lifespan and I have purchased a few of these new lokos with the 3-pole motor. Was Janne's motor unusual? Maybe. When I hear all motors in a series of lokos have been replaced, I begin to believe Janne's test was not indicative of these motors. I do not question Janne's results. But I am beginning to think he just managed to get a "good" motor. Perhaps they have all been one production run that has failed. It is well documented at this site and others how Chinese quality will fade if you do not constantly inspect the product during manufacture. At the moment, I do not believe anyone can state with certainty how long these motors will last. Something that never caused me concern before with Marklin's products.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Purellum  
#16 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:34:54(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
When I hear all motors in a series of lokos have been replaced,


Where did you hear that? You heard that all locos with a defect motor had the motor replaced, some more than once.

Is that 10% of all locos in that series, or is it 1%? 50%? 100%?

IMHO you are jumping to conclusions, making a problem of what you imagine.

Per.

Cool





If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline biedmatt  
#17 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:37:34(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Quote:
When I hear all motors in a series of lokos have been replaced,


Where did you hear that? You heard that all locos with a defect motor had the motor replaced, some more than once.

Is that 10% of all locos in that series, or is it 1%? 50%? 100%?

IMHO you are jumping to conclusions, making a problem of what you imagine.

Per.

Cool








In the post I linked above. He states he has replaced all the motors in this particular loko. Some more than once. I do not know the percentage, I recognize it is not every one Marklin has made. But all that come across a repair desk does not bode well for the production run.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:38:39(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Does anybody know for sure that the 3-pole motor is "cheap"? ( And "not good"? )

Per.

Cool


My thoughts exactly, As for claiming it costs only €3 over in the other thread on goofys loco, I wonder where he got that price from. Is the motor in the loco really from the same manufacturer as the motor that does cost that much? If there are no markings on the motor he can't tell that for certain.

Offline Purellum  
#19 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:56:04(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I'm sorry; but I can't help making fun of this:

All we know is that all the locos that came to the repair desk had to be repaired. ( Surprise )

In this particular loco the problem was the motor, which was then replaced.

I remember other locos where the problem was the decoder or the loudspeaker, and the
first version of the Mobile station had a problem with the speed knob.

All these problems have been solved by Märklin, so what IS the problem?

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline foumaro  
#20 Posted : 22 October 2014 14:58:59(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
The same discussion again and again.Mellow
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Offline RayF  
#21 Posted : 22 October 2014 15:06:40(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
As I said in my post (#3) above....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Janne75  
#22 Posted : 22 October 2014 15:28:08(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
As I see this problem it is just the grease going in the motor and softening of the brushes causing problems. And only in some models with bad design of the greasing point being located so that the grease will go inside of the motor when there is too much grease put in the worm drive. The motors are not bad.

I just compared the .pdf files from Märklin´s website www.maerklin.de . You can all see the cause of the problem when you compare photos of 36321 DB BR 81 (this is basically the same as 29539 starter sets loco = similar design to the one in my endurance test), 37165 DB BR 94.5 and 39644 DB BR 64. Only the 36321 DB BR 81 has the worm drive needing grease on the "right side" = the side without the motor openings. Both 37165 DB BR 94.5 and 39644 DB BR 64 has the worm drive greasing point on the "wrong side" of the motor and the excessive grease will go into the motor and destroy the brushes. The worst situation is with the 37165 DB BR 94.5 as it has also the flywheel on the other side and it´s motor will get the grease even easier inside it´s motor. 39644 DB BR 64 has at least it´s flyheel in front of the motor. It also has a different looking motor, so I can´t be 100% sure if the grease can go in the motor from the worm drive side or not.

Edit: Just to be more clear I want to add that the motor is installed in different direction in the 36321 and 37165. If 37165 would have it´s motor openings on the flywheel side the problem would be solved.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline biedmatt  
#23 Posted : 22 October 2014 15:36:24(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

I'm sorry; but I can't help making fun of this:

All we know is that all the locos that came to the repair desk had to be repaired. ( Surprise )

In this particular loco the problem was the motor, which was then replaced.

I remember other locos where the problem was the decoder or the loudspeaker, and the
first version of the Mobile station had a problem with the speed knob.

All these problems have been solved by Märklin, so what IS the problem?

Per.

Cool


Yes, as funny as: "You heard that all locos with a defect motor had the motor replaced, some more than once." Also a surprise eh?

My mistake. There are no documented problems with the 3-pole motor.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Janne75  
#24 Posted : 22 October 2014 15:44:40(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
There certainly is design flaws for example in these 39644 DB BR 64 and 37165 DB BR 94.5 locos. But the problem is not the motors, it´s the grease going inside of the motors, just like Dion wrote in Goofy´s topic (posting #44) about his problems with 39644 coming in service and motors had been changed.

I agree Märklin has problems as the design of these locos has not been done as good as it could have been done. If I had these locos I would open their bodies and take away the excess grease to avoid these unwanted problems with grease going inside the motors.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Purellum  
#25 Posted : 22 October 2014 16:05:40(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
My mistake. There are no documented problems with the 3-pole motor.


I have not heard about problems, neither in performance nor in lifetime with these motors.

The design of DC-motors have changed a lot during the last 10 - 20 years, so you can't compare
a new 3-pole DC-motor with an old 3-pole DC-motor.

Design flaws in the way the motor is build into equipment like a loco is something completely different.

Per.

Cool
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#26 Posted : 22 October 2014 16:56:01(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
There certainly is design flaws for example in these 39644 DB BR 64 and 37165 DB BR 94.5 locos. But the problem is not the motors, it´s the grease going inside of the motors, just like Dion wrote in Goofy´s topic (posting #44) about his problems with 39644 coming in service and motors had been changed.

I agree Märklin has problems as the design of these locos has not been done as good as it could have been done. If I had these locos I would open their bodies and take away the excess grease to avoid these unwanted problems with grease going inside the motors.

Janne



The common thing with the '64 & the '94 designs, is that they both have a worm gear mounted on the shaft adjacent to the motor casing. This is probably dipped in grease just prior to being fitted to the Lok, and the excessive grease migrates along the shaft, past the fixed metal bearing, or case wall, and then to the brushes, destroying them as Dion detailed in the other thread Bored
This can, and does so easily, happen with too much oil on the shaft bearing on the commutator side of our DCM motors, and btw, is made worse if the Lok is stored on it's side with the commutator side uppermost, where the oil runs down the shaft & onto the drum commutater, or flat commutator for that matter Scared

Thanks Per for your balanced and to the point view on this ThumpUp
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline Goofy  
#27 Posted : 22 October 2014 18:45:44(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
The price of 3 pole motor for the Dm3 model cost about €12.
To TS about to change out motor to Faulhaber or Maxon...
www.sb-modellbau.com
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Purellum  
#28 Posted : 22 October 2014 19:14:48(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
The price of 3 pole motor for the Dm3 model cost about €12.


No. It costs 29,50 Euro.

Can you sell me these motors at a price of 12 Euro, I would like to buy 20.

Thanks in advance.

Per.

Cool
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Offline Goofy  
#29 Posted : 22 October 2014 19:18:13(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Quote:
The price of 3 pole motor for the Dm3 model cost about €12.


No. It costs 29,50 Euro.

Can you sell me these motors at a price of 12 Euro, I would like to buy 20.

Thanks in advance.

Per.

Cool


An shop dealer in Sweden sells it about €12.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#30 Posted : 22 October 2014 19:22:13(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
An shop dealer in Sweden sells it about €12.


Can you please tell me the name of the shop / dealer?

Thanks in advance.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

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Offline Goofy  
#31 Posted : 22 October 2014 19:26:00(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Quote:
An shop dealer in Sweden sells it about €12.


Can you please tell me the name of the shop / dealer?

Thanks in advance.

Per.

Cool


Sure!
My mistake about the prices...it´s €13.33.
www.modellhobby.se/index...cat=307&entity=60774

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 22 October 2014 19:30:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
The price of 3 pole motor for the Dm3 model cost about €12.


No. It costs 29,50 Euro.
Now. A few months ago the RRP was €15.
Makes me wonder whether the quality was upgraded (maybe they just increased the price for "cosmetic" reasons).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Purellum  
#33 Posted : 22 October 2014 19:33:51(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Great! So when the motor finally quits after many hundred hours of running, I can get new motors for only 13,33 Euro! BigGrin

Can you also find the older motor types as cheap as this one?

Per.

Edit: I don't think the homepage for Modelljärnvägsspecialisten works, they had 2 listed as being in stock, I bought both,
and they still list 2 as being in stock, even if I have received an order confirmation.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Goofy  
#34 Posted : 22 October 2014 20:51:40(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Great! So when the motor finally quits after many hundred hours of running, I can get new motors for only 13,33 Euro! BigGrin

Can you also find the older motor types as cheap as this one?

Per.

Edit: I don't think the homepage for Modelljärnvägsspecialisten works, they had 2 listed as being in stock, I bought both,
and they still list 2 as being in stock, even if I have received an order confirmation.

Cool


They must verified you order first and when they pick up order,it stand later in the store empty out or lesser.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#35 Posted : 22 October 2014 22:26:04(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
I think you'll find your answer here. According to David, this is a Marklin service person who would be knowledgeable of the motor.

https://www.marklin-user...t-s-back.aspx#post470836


Dion does not work for Marklin as such, but he is the New Zealand Marklin Dealer / Distributor and a highly qualified electronics / electrical engineer in his own right. Dion does perform a lot of servicing on Marklin items that he can repair himself (he repaired my 37772 SVT132 when it died), to save items being sent back to Germany. As he states in his post, Dion has replaced a few 3 pole motors that had got oil inside them, which ended up destroying the brushes and shorting out the motor.

Dion's webshop can be found at www.toottoot.co.nz

Many of you will know Bryan 'Oldtoot' on the forum. Bryan is Dion's dad and runs the Toottoot shop in Christchurch.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#36 Posted : 22 October 2014 22:26:54(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Moved topic from 'Loco Reviews' to 'General MRR / H0'.
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Offline leahcim  
#37 Posted : 22 October 2014 23:43:32(UTC)
leahcim

Australia   
Joined: 12/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: QUEENSLAND, BRISBANE
Quote:
The worst situation is with the 37165 DB BR 94.5 as it has also the flywheel on the other side and it´s motor will get the grease even easier inside it´s motor.


Ok, great first new marklin loco I buy in probably 15 years and I hear this. I will open it up and check it when it arrives to make sure it has no grease close to the motor bearing.
What I have been wondering is there a universal grease for all of marklins models with a worm drive?
I've got a 3125 railcar that needs some grease but I'm not sure what grease to get. Seems funny you can buy marklin oil but not grease?

michael
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#38 Posted : 23 October 2014 00:01:28(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Yes, Marklin recommend you use Trix grease.

https://www.amazon.com/T...ial-Grease/dp/B0008EJ1SA
Offline leahcim  
#39 Posted : 23 October 2014 00:34:45(UTC)
leahcim

Australia   
Joined: 12/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: QUEENSLAND, BRISBANE
Thanks bigdaddy. I'll get some. Not from amazon though. It appears they don't ship this item to Aus. I had a look at the exploded view and can understand now, how this is a problem with grease entering the motor. Maybe some sort of plastic or felt shield could be added?

regards
michael
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Offline Shamu  
#40 Posted : 23 October 2014 03:09:13(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Just out of curiosity as I'm not in a position to actually try until after we move house has anyone tried using a "dry lubricant" along the lines of say "Tungsten Disulfide" or "Hexagonal Boron Nitride"

I have never used these products on my trains but have used them in the past on relays and other electro-mechanical devices.

Just a thought.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline NZMarklinist  
#41 Posted : 23 October 2014 06:23:05(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The price of 3 pole motor for the Dm3 model cost about €12.
To TS about to change out motor to Faulhaber or Maxon...
www.sb-modellbau.com


I've been aware of these guys for some years, (I had that link saved) and whilst they're not cheap I have always had in the back of my mind that they could be the go to people in the event of a motor failure (Can or SDS) with a favourite model, with parts unavailable from Marklin Scared
Thanks for the reminder Goofy ThumpUp
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline Mark_1602  
#42 Posted : 23 October 2014 06:49:58(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hello everyone,

I only have one locomotive with three-pole motors, and that's a Märklin Dm3. I can't say that those motors are so bad, but I don't feel good about spending 400-600 euros on locomotives with such inexpensive motors. I've tried to find out about the production costs of DC motors, and it seems that they generally cost between 50 cents and 10 euros each. The infamous three-pole motor used by Märklin probably has a price tag of about two or three euros in a bulk order of 10,000, but that's only an estimation. Some people say it only costs one euro, but it's probably not that cheap. Five-pole motors must be more expensive, maybe between 5 and 10 euros, depending on the type and the quality.

I was glad to read here in this thread that they can last over 200 hours, and I've been a loyal Märklin fan and customer since the 1970s, but I expect a better motor in expensive locomotives, so I have only ordered medium-priced models this year. I'll sell my Dm3 because it's not the type of product I expect from Märklin.

The main problem with the three-pole motors is simply that some customers refuse to buy any more Märklin products because of them. This is also connected to the design flaws in some models mentioned in this thread. Mr Florian Sieber admitted in an interview this summer that sales are lower than expected this year, and sales were down last year as well. I think that Märklin should set up a task force to eliminate the design flaws in some new models (such as the BR95), as this would increase customer satisfaction. The three-pole motors should be discontinued except in cheap models because they have a negative impact on sales figures. I don't want to criticise Märklin products all the time because I really like them, but those motors have damaged the company's image and its bottom line.

Märklin has started using more five-pole motors (e.g. in the new Nohabs and the E93), but more needs to be done. They used to be the most innovative manufacturer and made the best products, so they should simply do that once again, and all those endless discussions about motors etc. would stop.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline foumaro  
#43 Posted : 23 October 2014 07:21:03(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
This year I bought five locomotives,four from the past and one from the year 2014.They are:
1.Alaska F7 3462
2.Mikado Pennsylvania 37976
3.Mikado NYC 37978
4.Big Boy 37993
5.Super Chief 26496
Mounths before I buy the 26496 I asked Marklin what kind of motors the set will have and they told me that the set will have motors similars to 60941 set,so I bought it.I am trying to say that I buy models I know what kind of motors they have,Mikados have the great faulhaber,the Big Boy have the same motor my GG1 have so I know that the motor is OK.So buy only models with motors you know they are reliable and do not buy all the rest and stop discussing the same problems again and again.Just my opinion.
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Offline H0  
#44 Posted : 23 October 2014 07:56:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Mikados have the great faulhaber,the Big Boy have the same motor my GG1 have so I know that the motor is OK.So buy only models with motors you know they are reliable and do not buy all the rest and stop discussing the same problems again and again.
No more Faulhaber with Big Boy 37994 and later, probably no Faulhaber with recent GG-1 (at least they lowered the RRP significantly). I don't know what happened to the Mikado.

So you have to ask them with every new ref. number which motor will be included.

Märklin could bring this discussion to an end by providing sufficient information in the new items brochure - like they did a few years ago.

Märklin 37307: "can motor with a 5-pole, skewed armature and a flywheel, centrally mounted"
Märklin 39860: "controlled high-efficiency propulsion"

Märklin "Big Boy" 37993: "powerful motor with a bell-shaped armature and a fly-wheel, mounted in the boiler"
Märklin "Big Boy" 37994: "controlled high-efficiency propulsion and a powerful motor"
Thank you, Märklin!

The new three-pole motors I saw disassembled didn't have skewed armatures. They are "returning" to five-pole motors, but the motors are simpler than those they used a few years ago.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Purellum  
#45 Posted : 23 October 2014 08:50:10(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Thanks Tom, I think we more or less have the same opinion on this.

Skewed armature or not, the design and manufacturing methods have changed a lot, and I really don't
find that the price Märklin pays for a motor is relevant, as long as the quality of that motor is OK.

The only thing I'm trying to say, is that just because a motor is 3-pole, it doesn't make it worse than a 5-pole.

You can easily buy a cheap and crappy 5-pole motor, lasting only 10% of the lifetime of a good quality 3-pole motor.

Much more relevant to the quality of the motors are the design and materials used, e.g. are the bearings plastic, brass,
phosphor bronze or real ball bearings; how are the commutator and brushes made, how well is the motor balanced,
how straight and stiff are the shafts and how well were the motors generally manufactured.

As seen with the over-oiling problem, also the design of the equipment where the motors are used, as well as the
motor speed ( RPM ) and the decoder controlling the motor are much more relevant than the 3 or 5 poles, IMHO.

If design problems ends up being seen by the end customer as quality problems, Märklin should be told about this,
and all affected locos returned to be fixed.

I would definitely prefer a good quality 3-pole motor for a not-so-good quality 5-pole motor in all cases I can imagine,
as long as the motor is controlled by a matching PWM-regulated decoder.

Per.

Cool




If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline NZMarklinist  
#46 Posted : 23 October 2014 10:53:59(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
From the 3 Pole Thread;


I was pleased to hear Goofy has his Lok back and working well ThumpUp

I should have mentioned that the difference with the '45s, and most of the other large Damphloks or Steamers, is that the motor is mounted to a gearbox and this may well be done by somebody more technically competent than the final assembly workers, and there is little or no oil or grease applied at this stage, as well as the fact that with the '45s at least, the shaft is pointing down hill away from the motor making migration of lubricant inside the motor can much less likely ! Bored


Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline H0  
#47 Posted : 23 October 2014 12:11:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
The only thing I'm trying to say, is that just because a motor is 3-pole, it doesn't make it worse than a 5-pole.
Yep. I look at it the other way around: five-pole motors are not automatically better then three-pole motors.Wink
A straight-wound three-pole motor requires a much better load regulation in the decoder than a skew-wound five-poler motor.

And IMHO the load regulation of the new decoders of a self-declared "innovation pace maker" is best described as "strong fertilizer".

But since there is no new information from our market leader (except for doubled spare-part prices), there is no point in repeating that discussion.
All is well if the customers are satisfied.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#48 Posted : 23 October 2014 21:30:27(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hello everybody,

Probably there are still a lot of satisfied customers, such as the collectors who never use their locomotives or those who were lucky, but even loyal Märklin fans can't help seeing that there are some problems now. Even without precise testing procedures, everybody who has used Märklin products for a few decades can tell that the motors they used to have some years ago were better.

Sadly, I got three brand-new locomotives that had to be repainted, so I had three warranty cases last year. I only order electric or diesel locomotives now, as they're less likely to have issues. The only steam locomotives I buy now are all vintage. I still keep on buying, but I can't really say I'm 100% satisfied. In my opinion, the main problem they have now is not the factory in Hungary. Those warranty cases I had were only due to poor handling and lack of quality control. I could see the damage when I opened the boxes and even as a loyal Märklin supporter, I must admit that I was disappointed. How could they pack that and ship it to retailers? They should have more German supervisors at that factory in Györ and fix those problems quickly. Maybe the over-oiling of the BR 94 is also due to poor handling or poorly skilled new workers there. Here's the evidence, and I hope they have improved things since then. Some of those LGB trains in the picture must have fallen over during transport. The text also says that the scratched gauge I cars were made in China, that the women in the pictures work without gloves (leaving fingerprints on the products), and that the production in Hungary does not seem to be very professional.

Pictures from Györ

When I saw that, I understood why I had three warranty cases in one year. I'm sure that Märklin will react, but they should do so fast. When my new locomotives arrive later this autumn, I'll report on the quality here. I don't want to stop buying, but the products should at least be so good that the loyal customers are satisfied with every item. I still believe they can do that ...

Best regards,
Mark

Edited by user 24 October 2014 12:19:11(UTC)  | Reason: added some information and a link

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#49 Posted : 24 October 2014 12:50:51(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Does anybody know for sure that the 3-pole motor is "cheap"? ( And "not good"? )

Hello Per,
there are physical constraints, why a 3-pole motor is less good compared to a 5-pole motor. That's a fact, which must not be discussed.

The build quality of the Märklin 3-pole DC-motor is also of low quality. The anker hasn't skewed grooves, the bearing is simple and there are several reports, where this motor died after only a few hours of running.

It is a tragedy, that there are only economic sience people taking technical decisions at Märklin.
Offline RayF  
#50 Posted : 24 October 2014 13:03:13(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Does anybody know for sure that the 3-pole motor is "cheap"? ( And "not good"? )


....

there are physical constraints, why a 3-pole motor is less good compared to a 5-pole motor. ThatÄs a fact, which must not be discussed.

....

.


I beg to disagree. There is nothing that cannot be discussed!

In this case, you cannot say that a 3 pole motor is always less good than a 5 pole motor. 3 pole motors produce more torque than 5 pole motors for the same overall size. They also run at higher speeds. The end result must always be analysed together with the gear train, as this will affect the performance of the whole drive.

It is also true that a badly made 5 pole motor will be worse than a well made 3 pole motor.

Additionally, in a digitally controlled system, the performance of the digital decoder and motor driver have to be taken into account.

We should not generalise.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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