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Offline Rocca  
#1 Posted : 10 October 2014 18:02:26(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Dear Märklin friends,

I'm at the minute working on a signal in my Z layout. It has three lights, green, red and yellow and I switch it with 2 different 8946. And I wish I could make the speed of the loco getting slow in front of the yellow light, connected to the green one. So I suppose I can use a resistor and I suppose too that I need to connect the side B of the track to it, in in the insulated section, and the other side of the resistor to the Trafo. Does it sound right? And What about the 8946? How do I need to wire them?
Thanks in advance!

Stefano Rocca
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Offline hgk  
#2 Posted : 11 October 2014 04:59:44(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Stefano,
If you want a fixed slow speed you might want to try switching in a zenier diode instead of the voltage divider. It's hard for me to comment on your circuit without knowing more about how you have the
8946's wired up to your lights, insulated section, and transformer. Is it anything like the circuit shown here?: http://www.guidetozscale.com/html/signals.html It shows the 8946 having a SPDT switch
on the right side which could be wired up to supply EITHER the regular transformer output OR the slow voltage circuit output to the common (middle) leg which would go out to the track. What is the
insulated section of track used for in your application? A diagram like the one in the link above would be a great help to know what your options are and for me to know how you are selecting the lights.
Regards, George
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Offline Rocca  
#3 Posted : 11 October 2014 08:30:40(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Dear George, thanks for the link! The diagram shows my own wiring. I'm having an 893923 lights signal amd the first 8946 is connected as it is set on your diagram : the only difference is that where you put the yellow wire i have set a wire to the trafo ground. The second 8946 is wiring to yellow and to ground. I want to use the resistor because i've it at home...
I have attached 2 pics about the wiring too...so you can have a look on it!
thankd a lot!
Stefano

Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Stefano,
If you want a fixed slow speed you might want to try switching in a zenier diode instead of the voltage divider. It's hard for me to comment on your circuit without knowing more about how you have the
8946's wired up to your lights, insulated section, and transformer. Is it anything like the circuit shown here?: http://www.guidetozscale.com/html/signals.html It shows the 8946 having a SPDT switch
on the right side which could be wired up to supply EITHER the regular transformer output OR the slow voltage circuit output to the common (middle) leg which would go out to the track. What is the
insulated section of track used for in your application? A diagram like the one in the link above would be a great help to know what your options are and for me to know how you are selecting the lights.
Regards, George
Rocca attached the following image(s):
Wiring yo 8469.jpg
track section.jpg
Offline hgk  
#4 Posted : 12 October 2014 06:27:29(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
I've worked up a schematic based on the following assumptions.
Stop- Red lamp lit and 0 volts to the isolated section of track
Slow- Yellow and Green lamps lit (I read that this is correct for Germany/Europe.) Track section is supplied with voltage from Var. resistor.
Proceed- (Run) Green lamp lit. Track section supplied with voltage from transformer.



As you can see there is an additional 10vac N.C. relay which is the only way I could think to do it. Perhaps someone else with a different
solution will reply but doing it this way is pretty easy.

Please ask if you have any questions as it may require more explanation, and let me know if I've made any wrong assumptions.
Offline Rocca  
#5 Posted : 12 October 2014 10:17:20(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hello, George,

Thank you very much! Yes, your assumptions are totally right. I don't understand anyway how in your wiring system I can switch the proceed-green option, because you suggest to put in one 8946 the red light and in other one the green and the yellow. So I could only have the green or the yellow alternatively.
I don't understand too what do you mean with ACCY: do you mean ACCESSORY" or what else?
Finally, about the 10vac N.C. relay: can you give me a link to some online shop where I could buy it? I live in Italy. So it would be fine some shop in Europe. I can't find it on my own, because I don't know what you're meaning.
Thanks in advance.

Best regards
Stefano

Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
I've worked up a schematic based on the following assumptions.
Stop- Red lamp lit and 0 volts to the isolated section of track
Slow- Yellow and Green lamps lit (I read that this is correct for Germany/Europe.) Track section is supplied with voltage from Var. resistor.
Proceed- (Run) Green lamp lit. Track section supplied with voltage from transformer.


As you can see there is an additional 10vac N.C. relay which is the only way I could think to do it. Perhaps someone else with a different
solution will reply but doing it this way is pretty easy.

Please ask if you have any questions as it may require more explanation, and let me know if I've made any wrong assumptions.


Offline hgk  
#6 Posted : 12 October 2014 21:20:20(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
I've made some additions to the drawing labels for a little more clarity.

Yes ACCY was for the accessory output from the transformer. I put the transformer on the drawing.
You can try this relay it should work. If you need information on how to wire it then post the instructions when you receive it and I can help.
http://www.airyear.com/f...45080ca98d883e9c51b2c6cf

The Switches are drawn in the run and fast positions.(normal speed on the isolation track and green lamp lit.)
When you change the position of the switch then the 3 movable contacts in the switch move down and pins 1-2 open; 2-3 close; 4-5 close; 6-7 close.
If you want to save one of the N.O. switches for future use you can move the wire on S1 pin 5 to S1 pin 7 and it will work exactly the same.

Proceed at normal speed with green lamp lit:
Switch S1 in Run position, Switch S2 in Fast position.
The transformer power comes in on S1 pin 2 and out on S1 pin 1 then in on S2 pin 2 and out to isolation track on S2 pin 1. Isolation track is now powered at normal speed.
Accessory power is connected to the lamp yellow wire and one side of the relay coil. Accessory ground is supplied to green lamp via the normally closed relay contact. The relay coil is unpowered in this state and the green lamp is lit. The yellow and red lamps are off.

Proceed at slow speed with green and yellow lamps lit:
Switch S1 in Run position, Switch S2 in Slow position.
Transformer power comes in on S1 pin 2 and out on S1 pin 1 then in on S2 pin 2 and out on S2 pin 3 to the voltage divider, the reduced voltage comes from voltage divider to S2 pin 4, and out on S2 pin 5 to isolation track.
Accessory power is connected to the lamp yellow wire and one side of the relay coil. Accessory ground is supplied to green lamp thru the normally closed relay contact. Accessory ground is also connected to S2 pin 6 and goes out on S2 pin 7 to the yellow lamp. The relay is unpowered in this state and the green and yellow lamps are lit.

Stop with red lamp lit:
Switch S1 in Stop position, Switch S2 in either position.
Transformer power comes in on S1 pin 2, out on S1 pin 3. Nothing is connected to pin 3 so there is no voltage going out to the isolation track.
Accessory power is connected to the lamp yellow wire and one side of the relay coil.
Accessory ground comes in on S1 pin 4 and out on S1 pin 5 to the red lamp. The red lamp is lit.
Accessory ground comes in on S1 pin 6 and out on S1 pin 7 to the relay coil; the relay coil energizes and the normally closed relay contact opens; no accessory ground is going from the relay to the green lamp and S2 pin 6; the green and yellow lamps are off.

If you take time to read the descriptions and look at the schematic it should make more sense to you, but be sure to let me know if anything is unclear.
Keep in mind that the voltage divider will give you a proportion of the transformer track voltage so the lower you have the transformer set the lower the divider output will be, so at some point the output may be too slow to drive the locomotive.

you wrote:
"because you suggest to put in one 8946 the red light and in other one the green and the yellow. So I could only have the green or the yellow alternatively."
I designed the lights to work as I described earlier and you confirmed my description so I'm not sure what you mean by the above statement. Did you want the slow speed to light just the yellow lamp and not the green with it?

Sorry, I just realized that I need to add a bridge rectifier for the relay so I put it on the drawing. A .5 amp rectifier should be plenty for that relay coil. It's a real cheap item and hopefully you can find one in your area.

thanks,
George
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Offline Rocca  
#7 Posted : 13 October 2014 16:21:37(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Good afternoon, dear George...well, here it is afternoon to me, but I can't imagine what is for you!
Thank you so so much for the new schema! I understand now that the switching works through the relay and so now U'm totally with you. Now I switch itt through the 8946...so it was why I didn't understand. I've oredered the relay so I'm looking forward to get them.
I have another question about the section in the rail connected to the ground of the Trafo: I'have sectioned it in the different points with a drill, but now when I connect the rail to the ground of the Trafo the Loco doesn't have power and it doesn't work.. Can you help to understand that, please? What have I have done wrong?

Best regards
Stefano Rocca


Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
Yes ACCY was for the accessory output from the transformer. I put the transformer on the drawing.
You can try this relay it should work. If you need information on how to wire it then post the instructions when you receive it and I can help.
http://www.airyear.com/f...45080ca98d883e9c51b2c6cf

The Switches are drawn in the run and fast positions.(normal speed on the isolation track and green lamp lit.)
When you change the position of the switch then the 3 movable contacts in the switch move down and pins 1-2 open; 2-3 close; 4-5 close; 6-7 close.
If you want to save one of the N.O. switches for future use you can move the wire on S1 pin 5 to S1 pin 7 and it will work exactly the same.

Proceed at normal speed with green lamp lit:
Switch S1 in Run position, Switch S2 in Fast position.
The transformer power comes in on S1 pin 2 and out on S1 pin 1 then in on S2 pin 2 and out to isolation track on S2 pin 1. Isolation track is now powered at normal speed.
Accessory power is connected to the lamp yellow wire and one side of the relay coil. Accessory ground is supplied to green lamp via the normally closed relay contact. The relay coil is unpowered in this state and the green lamp is lit. The yellow and red lamps are off.

Proceed at slow speed with green and yellow lamps lit:
Switch S1 in Run position, Switch S2 in Slow position.
Transformer power comes in on S1 pin 2 and out on S1 pin 1 then in on S2 pin 2 and out on S2 pin 3 to the voltage divider, the reduced voltage comes from voltage divider to S2 pin 4, and out on S2 pin 5 to isolation track.
Accessory power is connected to the lamp yellow wire and one side of the relay coil. Accessory ground is supplied to green lamp thru the normally closed relay contact. Accessory ground is also connected to S2 pin 6 and goes out on S2 pin 7 to the yellow lamp. The relay is unpowered in this state and the green and yellow lamps are lit.

Stop with red lamp lit:
Switch S1 in Stop position, Switch S2 in either position.
Transformer power comes in on S1 pin 2, out on S1 pin 3. Nothing is connected to pin 3 so there is no voltage going out to the isolation track.
Accessory power is connected to the lamp yellow wire and one side of the relay coil.
Accessory ground comes in on S1 pin 4 and out on S1 pin 5 to the red lamp. The red lamp is lit.
Accessory ground comes in on S1 pin 6 and out on S1 pin 7 to the relay coil; the relay coil energizes and the normally closed relay contact opens; no accessory ground is going from the relay to the green lamp and S2 pin 6; the green and yellow lamps are off.

If you take time to read the descriptions and look at the schematic it should make more sense to you, but be sure to let me know if anything is unclear.
Keep in mind that the voltage divider will give you a proportion of the transformer track voltage so the lower you have the transformer set the lower the divider output will be, so at some point the output may be too slow to drive the locomotive.

you wrote:
"because you suggest to put in one 8946 the red light and in other one the green and the yellow. So I could only have the green or the yellow alternatively."
I designed the lights to work as I described earlier and you confirmed my description so I'm not sure what you mean by the above statement. Did you want the slow speed to light just the yellow lamp and not the green with it?

Sorry, I just realized that I need to add a bridge rectifier for the relay so I put it on the drawing. A .5 amp rectifier should be plenty for that relay coil. It's a real cheap item and hopefully you can find one in your area.

thanks,
George


Offline hgk  
#8 Posted : 14 October 2014 05:38:59(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano, Glad to hear we are in agreement with the signals. As to troubleshooting power to the rail it's kind of difficult to do over a webpage so send me an airline ticket and I'll be right over.BigGrin
I don't know if you have a voltmeter but you can check a lot with a lamp. I made up a simple drawing to explain. A cheap volt-ohm meter is all that's needed for this kind of troubleshooting so I would suggest
getting one and substitute the voltmeter for the lamp.


The drawings show a simple straight track but keep in mind that an oval track carries the current in both directions so a single break would not be noticed in operation. A track that dead ends at a buffer would
be noticeable as the train would not run past the break.

You can use any type 12 volt lamp for testing and the automotive world has tons of them. A socket would also be handy for the lamp but some of the automobile lamps have legs which you can solder the
wires to. I think they are called wedge lamps in English.

For Z scale the track has to be very clean and all the track joints tight and all wiring very secure. I'm not sure what you were drilling for the track sections and how you were connecting the wires to the track
sections but make sure that all your red wires are on the same side of the track. If you think of a plain oval track the red wire would always be on the outside rail but if you make a figure 8 then it
changes as it loops around so it's easy to get your section wires wrong which would cause a short circuit shut down when powered. If you have an ohmmeter you can check the wires
removed from the transformer but connected to the track and they should read as an open circuit.

For the lamp testing. Keep in mind that its not really different from running the locomotive till it stops somewhere. It does give some visual indication of the conditions as it shouldn't dim very much unless
there's a poor joint somewhere. If you disconnect the track from the transformer and touch the lamp to the transformer output you will see how bright the lamp is under ideal conditions.
1. Simply shows that connecting the lamp to red and testing the ground rail anywhere will light the lamp. Be sure to turn the transformer up to see it nice and bright.
2. Same as no. 1 but testing the red rail anywhere along the track. If you see the light suddenly go out anywhere along the rail then look for the break there.
3. Shows that you can test any where along the track but it does not indicate which rail is dead, but you should be able to see the break visually. Probably the most useful as you can start at the power connection track and move along without having wires all over.
4. Shows how a break on the ground rail can be found.
5. This one is a little different. Using a lamp and probing the same rail as the transformer output will cause the train to move if you touch past the break - but the lamp does not light. This is because the
lamp filament is very low resistance so there is very little voltage drop across the lamp thus the locomotive motor receives almost all the voltage and runs like normal.

Hope this is some help to you, certainly cheaper than an airline ticket.
George
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Offline Rocca  
#9 Posted : 14 October 2014 12:25:51(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi George,

Here I put two pics of the isolation done with my Dremel:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

I have sorted it soldering again the gap between the rails, because it happened always that the power worked only if the gap between the rails was filled on. So I don't know why, but it seems working now.
Today I'll buythe 5 Amp. rectifier, but what I need know now is how to solder it to the relay.
And so, let me know if I'm right, I haven't to connect any cable to the rail connected to ground and I'll only connect the resistor to the ground of the Trafo.

Thank you again for your help and, if I can't pay a fly, I wish I could get back to you all your help!!

Best regards
Stefano Rocca



Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano, Glad to hear we are in agreement with the signals.
....
Hope this is some help to you, certainly cheaper than an airline ticket.
George


Offline hgk  
#10 Posted : 14 October 2014 20:27:17(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
I'm up a little early today so maybe you will see this today as well.
The bridge rectifier only needs to be 1 amp. I originally put it at 1/2 amp but 1 is a lot more common. Look for one that has long enough legs on it to make it easier to solder the wires to.
The markings on the rectifier are as follows they should be plainly visible on the rectifier.
~ ~ these connect to the accessory power as shown on the schematic in post #6. One ~ leg to Accessory Yellow and the other ~ leg to S1 pin 7.
+ this one connects to the coil + pin on the relay. I need to see the instruction sheet for the relay to know where that is.
- this one connects to the coil - pin on the relay. Again I need to see the relay sheet.

As for the photos.
It looks like I'm not totally clear on what's going on so I put some questions on the photos.
In general- The transformer red track power goes to one rail then through the motor then to the other rail then back to the transformer brown track ground.
If you remove the engine from the track then there should be no connections from the red to the brown rail. When you put the engine on the track it's like plugging a lamp into the wall outlet in your house, it
creates a circuit for electricity to flow.
Any cut in the track creates an open circuit which stops the power to the train at the point of the cut. Therefore it needs a switch connected across the cut to be able to complete the circuit, just as the house lamp has
a switch on it to complete the circuit. To make a section of track under switch control you need to make a beginning cut in the rail and an ending cut further away but on the same side of the track. A switch across
one of the cuts will allow you to put power to the isolated section when needed but both outsides of the cuts need to have transformer power connected . You only need to isolate one side of the track for the motor to stop. It can be the red or the brown side but by convention it's normally the red.

On a model train layout there are many track joints which create a lot of places for voltage to drop a little so it's a common practice to run extra power wires directly from the transformer track outputs to a distribution strip then to any distant points on the track. This gives a boost in power to those distant points. These are wired from transformer red and brown to track red and brown as both rails have the voltage dropping as distance increases.

So you see that for me to look at the photos I can't tell if a wire is coming from a switch for isolation or an extra power wire from the transformer and there's no way to tell which rail is which.
It would be a lot better to see a drawing showing how it's wired in total rather than just an unlabeled section of the layout. I put some guesses on the photo as to what things are for but I really need a
lot more information to be able to help and a lot of my assumptions can be totally wrong so consider every comment as a question.

thanks,
George

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hgk
Offline Rocca  
#11 Posted : 15 October 2014 09:03:54(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hello, dear George,

Thank you a lot again for your precious help.
Here you can fine a file .pdf with the trackplan:
[img]https://www.marklin-users.net/upload/community/Docs/Rocca/Trackplan_Z.pdf[/img]

I've soldered the ground side of the track and so fixed the isolation I've made with Dremel and now the trains run fine. When I'm switching the signal on Red, the B side of the track through the 8946 the power is getting off and the train stops and when I switch it on Green it restarts. About the resistor so do I only need to connect it to ground of the Trafo without any wiring to the track (ground side of it)? Do I right?
I'll buy the soonest the 1Amp. rectifier.

Thanks in advance
Best regards
Stefano Rocca



Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
I'm up a little early today so maybe you will see this today as well.
The bridge rectifier only needs to be 1 amp. I originally put it at 1/2 amp but 1 is a lot more common. Look for one that has long enough legs on it to make it easier to solder the wires to.
The markings on the rectifier are as follows they should be plainly visible on the rectifier.
~ ~ these connect to the accessory power as shown on the schematic in post #6. One ~ leg to Accessory Yellow and the other ~ leg to S1 pin 7.
+ this one connects to the coil + pin on the relay. I need to see the instruction sheet for the relay to know where that is.
- this one connects to the coil - pin on the relay. Again I need to see the relay sheet.

As for the photos.
It looks like I'm not totally clear on what's going on so I put some questions on the photos.
In general- The transformer red track power goes to one rail then through the motor then to the other rail then back to the transformer brown track ground.
If you remove the engine from the track then there should be no connections from the red to the brown rail. When you put the engine on the track it's like plugging a lamp into the wall outlet in your house, it
creates a circuit for electricity to flow.
Any cut in the track creates an open circuit which stops the power to the train at the point of the cut. Therefore it needs a switch connected across the cut to be able to complete the circuit, just as the house lamp has
a switch on it to complete the circuit. To make a section of track under switch control you need to make a beginning cut in the rail and an ending cut further away but on the same side of the track. A switch across
one of the cuts will allow you to put power to the isolated section when needed but both outsides of the cuts need to have transformer power connected . You only need to isolate one side of the track for the motor to stop. It can be the red or the brown side but by convention it's normally the red.

On a model train layout there are many track joints which create a lot of places for voltage to drop a little so it's a common practice to run extra power wires directly from the transformer track outputs to a distribution strip then to any distant points on the track. This gives a boost in power to those distant points. These are wired from transformer red and brown to track red and brown as both rails have the voltage dropping as distance increases.

So you see that for me to look at the photos I can't tell if a wire is coming from a switch for isolation or an extra power wire from the transformer and there's no way to tell which rail is which.
It would be a lot better to see a drawing showing how it's wired in total rather than just an unlabeled section of the layout. I put some guesses on the photo as to what things are for but I really need a
lot more information to be able to help and a lot of my assumptions can be totally wrong so consider every comment as a question.

thanks,
George



Offline Rocca  
#12 Posted : 15 October 2014 09:56:32(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hello George,
It is sad to say, but I've received just now a mail from the shop
http://www.airyear.com/f...45080ca98d883e9c51b2c6cf
refunding me the money and telling me that the relay is out of stock. Can you suggest another online shop?
Sorry for asking you that too!

Best regards
Stefano Rocca
Offline hgk  
#13 Posted : 15 October 2014 22:47:39(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
If you can use Ebay, just enter 9v pcb relay. The pcb stands for printed circuit board. Look for one that looks about the same size as the other one, about 15 x 20 cm. When you find one (there are plenty on the us ebay most from china with free shipping), just check the specs and look for something like contact form "1B" and/or "1C". That means that there is a normally closed contact which is what you need. Also verify the coil is 9vdc in the specs. Don't worry if it doesn't have a pc board like the other one, you only need a relay.
I don't really know who you can use if you cant use ebay as I'm not familiar with European parts suppliers. You would have to do a search for 9 volt pcb relay and see for yourself what's available.
thanks,
George

Originally Posted by: Rocca Go to Quoted Post
Hello George,
It is sad to say, but I've received just now a mail from the shop
http://www.airyear.com/f...45080ca98d883e9c51b2c6cf
refunding me the money and telling me that the relay is out of stock. Can you suggest another online shop?
Sorry for asking you that too!

Best regards
Stefano Rocca
Offline Rocca  
#14 Posted : 15 October 2014 23:09:28(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi, dear George,

Have you seen the reply with my trackplan in .pdf?
Hope it will be good enough...lol

thanks for the advice about E-bay

Regards
Stefano
Offline hgk  
#15 Posted : 15 October 2014 23:38:08(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Glad to hear your making good progress.
The ground side can be connected anywhere there is a continuous ground back to the Trafo. For example all these connections are electrically identical. You can see why it's often called common because they are all just different points on the same ground source.


I don't know how to view the pdf. Clicking on it does nothing and I tried to copy and paste it on my browser but that didn't work either.
Let me know if you can view it?
thanks,
George


Originally Posted by: Rocca Go to Quoted Post
Hello, dear George,

Thank you a lot again for your precious help.
Here you can fine a file .pdf with the trackplan:
[img]https://www.marklin-users.net/upload/community/Docs/Rocca/Trackplan_Z.pdf[/img]

I've soldered the ground side of the track and so fixed the isolation I've made with Dremel and now the trains run fine. When I'm switching the signal on Red, the B side of the track through the 8946 the power is getting off and the train stops and when I switch it on Green it restarts. About the resistor so do I only need to connect it to ground of the Trafo without any wiring to the track (ground side of it)? Do I right?
I'll buy the soonest the 1Amp. rectifier.

Thanks in advance
Best regards
Stefano Rocca

Offline hgk  
#16 Posted : 16 October 2014 04:55:32(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
I retried the trackplan link and it worked so I must have copied it wrong the first try.
I made a copy of it and numbered the isolation tracks points so please let me know which sections are isolated by indicating number pairs. For example if the section between 2 and 3 is to be isolated and run in
both slow and fast mode then indicate 2-3 in your reply. If the siding is isolated then indicate 5-stop.
Based on your sketch I assume there are 4 tunnel entrances and 3 sidings, is that correct? If any of the isolation is going to be in the tunnels then could you draw the trackplan for inside the tunnels.
Also let me know if I have anything in my drawing wrong. The S1, S2 switches are shown incomplete but what is shown is correct. The dotted line out of S2 will connect to the isolated sections once I know where they are.
thanks,
George
Offline Rocca  
#17 Posted : 16 October 2014 12:26:37(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615

Hello, dear George,

I'm just putting in the attachment all the isolations as they are now in my layout.
About the 8588 the situation is: 1-stop; 5-stop; 4-stop; 11-stop. I don't need there any slow mode.
There isn't any isolation in the tunnel and I've at the minute 4 sidings controlled by a 70749. The other 3 are supposed only for coaches.

UserPostedImage


Thank you again and best regards
Stefano Rocca




Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
I retried the trackplan link and it worked so I must have copied it wrong the first try.
I made a copy of it and numbered the isolation tracks points so please let me know which sections are isolated by indicating number pairs. For example if the section between 2 and 3 is to be isolated and run in
both slow and fast mode then indicate 2-3 in your reply. If the siding is isolated then indicate 5-stop.
Based on your sketch I assume there are 4 tunnel entrances and 3 sidings, is that correct? If any of the isolation is going to be in the tunnels then could you draw the trackplan for inside the tunnels.
Also let me know if I have anything in my drawing wrong. The S1, S2 switches are shown incomplete but what is shown is correct. The dotted line out of S2 will connect to the isolated sections once I know where they are.
thanks,
George


Offline hgk  
#18 Posted : 16 October 2014 20:36:12(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
This one should work for you. I wasn't sure which are tunnel symbols and which are siding buffer stops on the original sketch so I left it alone. I also removed the isolation tracks your not using at this time.


You can try it with 1k resistors 1/2 watt. The voltage divider is a complete circuit so whenever there in any voltage out of the transformer it's on, so you should switch the transformer off when your not running trains.
I don't know what's available in Italy but I plug my train power into an outlet strip that has an on/off switch and use that.
Best wishes on your layout.
-George

Edited by user 19 October 2014 21:02:42(UTC)  | Reason: replaced drawing with later revision

Offline Webmaster  
#19 Posted : 16 October 2014 20:45:24(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Thanks George for providing so much great info and helping out!

Most of the guys in the forum are 3-rail H0 guys so I really appreciate that we also have a Z wizard aboard! ThumpUp
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Webmaster
Offline hgk  
#20 Posted : 16 October 2014 21:07:14(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Thanks George for providing so much great info and helping out!

Most of the guys in the forum are 3-rail H0 guys so I really appreciate that we also have a Z wizard aboard! ThumpUp


For me it's kinda fun to work thru the technical issues I only hope that I got it right. I should probably have done a mockup before I opened my mouth!
thanks,
-George
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hgk
Offline Rocca  
#21 Posted : 16 October 2014 21:27:22(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hello, George,

Thank you so so so much for your help!
I'll let you know when I'll get all the material.

Best regards
Stefano Rocca



Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
This one should work for you. I wasn't sure which are tunnel symbols and which are siding buffer stops on the original sketch so I left it alone. I also removed the isolation tracks your not using at this time.

You can try it with 1k resistors 1/2 watt. The voltage divider is a complete circuit so whenever there in any voltage out of the transformer it's on, so you should switch the transformer off when your not running trains.
I don't know what's available in Italy but I plug my train power into an outlet strip that has an on/off switch and use that.
Best wishes on your layout.
-George


Offline Rocca  
#22 Posted : 18 October 2014 12:31:32(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi, dear George,

I've just found in my local shop a relay, but I could find it only with 12V, not 9V, as you suggested. It is an item by Finder and its code is 36.11.9.012.4001 there is too on it the code B34. It has 5 pins: starting from the left NO and NC; then in the bottom the 3 other pins: in the middle there is COM. I have too the base for the electronic circuits and and blocks of three sockets for fixing cables. Is it all right in your opinion? May it work as you were meaning? How and where do you suggest to solder all the wires.

Best regards
STefano Rocca
Offline Rocca  
#23 Posted : 18 October 2014 18:24:22(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi again, George,

you can find here the datasheet:
http://datasheet.octopar...r-datasheet-10026697.pdf

best regards
Stefano
Offline Renato  
#24 Posted : 18 October 2014 19:55:49(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Hi Stefano,

I have just read your posts for the first time and I can give you an answer: the characteristics of the Finder relay as per datasheet are OK.

You need a relay with a CO (ChangeOver) contact and according to the drawing posted by George (post N. 18), you connect terminals A1 and A2 to the bridge rectifier (it does not matter which terminal is + or -), terminal 11 to the wire going to S1 and terminal 12 to the wire going to S2. (this is a normally closed contact which opens when you energize the relay coil.

If I remember well the accessories voltage for Z-gauge turnouts and other solenoid mechanisms is 10 V DC, so if the relay coil is rated 12 V DC you could not have a reliable operation: this is why George suggested you to buy a relay with 9 V DC coil.

On the data sheet is written: DC coil data - Operating range Umin 9 V DC Umax 18 V DC and if the 10 V DC of your Marklin power supply goes under 9 V DC (it could happen if you operate more solenoid accessories), the relay could change its state.

Cheers

Renato
Offline Rocca  
#25 Posted : 18 October 2014 21:46:33(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi, dear Renato,

Thank you so much for your answer. So you're meaning the first of the schema which are on the data sheet. The bridge rectifier has 4 legs: so whatever I connect to A1 and A2 is fine. Is the terminal 12 the NC one: isn't it?

Thanks a lot for the adivices
Best regards

Stefano Rocca


Originally Posted by: Renato Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,

I have just read your posts for the first time and I can give you an answer: the characteristics of the Finder relay as per datasheet are OK.

You need a relay with a CO (ChangeOver) contact and according to the drawing posted by George (post N. 18), you connect terminals A1 and A2 to the bridge rectifier (it does not matter which terminal is + or -), terminal 11 to the wire going to S1 and terminal 12 to the wire going to S2. (this is a normally closed contact which opens when you energize the relay coil.

If I remember well the accessories voltage for Z-gauge turnouts and other solenoid mechanisms is 10 V DC, so if the relay coil is rated 12 V DC you could not have a reliable operation: this is why George suggested you to buy a relay with 9 V DC coil.

On the data sheet is written: DC coil data - Operating range Umin 9 V DC Umax 18 V DC and if the 10 V DC of your Marklin power supply goes under 9 V DC (it could happen if you operate more solenoid accessories), the relay could change its state.

Cheers

Renato


Offline Renato  
#26 Posted : 18 October 2014 23:48:15(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Originally Posted by: Rocca Go to Quoted Post
Is the terminal 12 the NC one: isn't it?

Thanks a lot for the adivices
Best regards

Stefano Rocca


Hi Stefano,

YES it is.

Cheers

Renato

Offline hgk  
#27 Posted : 19 October 2014 05:44:19(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
I've updated the drawing so you can have it for future reference.
If you can try and buy a round bridge rectifier as it has longer legs than the flat type.
Then you could bend and solder the + leg directly to one side of the coil and the - leg to the other side ( A1 and A2 ).
There is no suppression diode in that relay so it's not labeled + and - on the relay so there is no polarity to worry about. The NC contact wires can be soldered directly to the relay pins, and the accessory 10vac wires can
be soldered directly to the bridge rectifier ~ legs. Shorten them up first so they are less likely to move and touch their neighbors. It would be good to use shrink tubing to insulate the connections if you have some.
You can glue the relay down on it's side to a mounting plate or small box. That way you can still read the printing on it.
You can use a three point terminal block for the resistors and their wiring.
Once you have it wired up and working those components should last a very long time so don't worry about making it extra easy to replace them.
Offline Rocca  
#28 Posted : 19 October 2014 11:02:34(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hello, George,

Thank you so much again. I'm happy letting you know, I've soldered everything and I can hear the relay swithcing when I put on green and yellow lights!!! Another thing needed to be known now: in your drawing you're putting 2 resistors and they seem to have to be connected in parallel. Am I right? I have now one resistor 15 W 6 Ω 8 J. May be right another one like that? By the way, the bridge rectifier I have found is round with long legs...lol!!!

Best regards and have a good sunday
Stefano
Offline hgk  
#29 Posted : 19 October 2014 22:42:22(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
It's hard to give a specific answer on the resistor values as it also depends on the locomotive motor but another resistor same as the one you have would be a good choice to try. Is it really 15 watts? That's a good sized resistor but perfectly fine for this use.
The resistors are wired in series not parallel. Where the resistors connect to each other there is also a wire to S2 pin4.
The Brown wire goes to the trafo brown connector. We are switching the trafo red output to the red side of the isolation track. If you are isolating the brown side of the track then things would have to be wired differently.
You should hear the relay click when you change from run to stop or stop to run on S1.
Unfortunately Marklin used red and green dots on the switch positions which is logically opposite of how we are using them so maybe put labels over the dots.
Here's how the resistors should look:

Thanks,
George
Also remember to insulate any exposed resistor wires. Also see how warm it gets in operation and mount it so the resistor bodys are not touching anything.
Offline Rocca  
#30 Posted : 19 October 2014 22:59:43(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi George,

Thank you again so so much! i understand the wiring scheme and next days and I'll go back to the shop and buy the new resistor...!!!
About the resistor, yesss...it tells on the label on it: 15 W
Best regards

Stefano
Offline Rocca  
#31 Posted : 21 October 2014 18:19:02(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hello, dear George,

So glad letting you know that I've purchased the other resistor and now all is working really perfectly...when the signal in on /green/yellow lights the locos run slower and I'm really happy with that! I'll never thank you enough for your marvellous help in doing all that.

Best regards

Stefano
Offline hgk  
#32 Posted : 22 October 2014 02:35:53(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
Hope you enjoyed doing all the manual labor as much as I enjoyed working up a solution for it.
Just as an fyi, I'm sure you could have used a standard marklin relay which would have made it a little less work but then it's 5x the cost and not as much fun. Fun, ok educational.

Looking forward to your next layout project.
-George
Offline Rocca  
#33 Posted : 22 October 2014 08:59:57(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi, dear George,

Yessss, of course, i enjoyed a lot the job and the way i could learn some more about managing a layout!!
By the way, i have now 3 layouts and 1 operative diorama. I adore all made by Märklin: i was an only 6 years old little boy when i got an oval with the 3000!! The diorama is in Gauge 1 and it lets me manouvring. I have too an H0 digital layouts ( with CS1) and another one with Metall tracks, analogic and catenary operating!

Best regards
Stefano

Glare
Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
Hope you enjoyed doing all the manual labor as much as I enjoyed working up a solution for it.
Just as an fyi, I'm sure you could have used a standard marklin relay which would have made it a little less work but then it's 5x the cost and not as much fun. Fun, ok educational.

Looking forward to your next layout project.
-George


Offline Rocca  
#34 Posted : 25 October 2014 10:12:42(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi dear George,

Sorry for asking your help again, but I'm having some troubles now. The first days it worked all very fine but since yesterday when I switch on gree/yellow the loco stops and with a lamp I checked there isn't any current flowing on the track. I've checked twice all the wiring and all seems in the right place. The green only and red one are working correctly and on red the train stops and on green it runs perfectly.
Have you any suggestion?

Thanks in advance
Stefano

Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
Hope you enjoyed doing all the manual labor as much as I enjoyed working up a solution for it.
Just as an fyi, I'm sure you could have used a standard marklin relay which would have made it a little less work but then it's 5x the cost and not as much fun. Fun, ok educational.

Looking forward to your next layout project.
-George


Offline hgk  
#35 Posted : 26 October 2014 04:06:39(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
Based on what you wrote, try the following procedure to see if it leads to anything.

With no trains on track.
1. Put S1 switch in Run position, Put S2 switch in Slow position.
2. Connect one lead of test lamp to Trafo Brown.
2a Set the trafo to maximum output.
3. Touch other lead of test lamp to S2-pin3 - Lamp should be bright. If yes, go to step 4.
3a. If no light then touch S2-pin2. If lamp lights then switch S2 is bad.
If S2 is bad then I can probably tell you how to swap switches and rewire.
4. Touch S2-pin4. Lamp should be about half bright. If yes go to step 5.
4a. If no light then visually check the connection between S2-pin3 and the one resistor.
4b. Then the connection between S2-pin4 and two resistors.
4c. Then the DC Gnd, brown wire to one resistor and back to the trafo.
5. Touch S2-pin 5 It should be half bright. If no light then the S2 switch may be bad and I can tell you how to swap switches and rewire to work.

Keep in mind that the resistor circuit creates about 1/2 the voltage of whatever the transformer is set to, so if the transformer is set at a low speed then 1/2 of that may not be enough to run the locomotive.

I assume the green and yellow lights are lit together in the above switch setting.
Good luck and let me know what you find.
George
Offline Rocca  
#36 Posted : 26 October 2014 17:31:16(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi George,

I've checked very carefully as you suggested me and something real strange is happening: I don't know if they are good news or if the things are going worst! Anyway it happened that if I connect one lead of the lamp to Trafdo Brown and have all the checking there is no light on (the soldering to the resistors and to the relay seem strong), but if I connect one lead of the lamp to the ground side of the rail all is going as you wrote and the light is on.. Maybe it is just because I'm quite hopeless with electronic...lolCrying Crying Blushing Blushing Blushing Blushing
Add that, if I coonect one lead to Trafo Brown and one to red, both directly to the Trafo with the speed at maximum the light is off. If i connect leads, one Brown and one to Yellow it works!!

Best regards and thanks again for all your help

Stefano Rocca


Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
Based on what you wrote, try the following procedure to see if it leads to anything.

With no trains on track.
1. Put S1 switch in Run position, Put S2 switch in Slow position.
2. Connect one lead of test lamp to Trafo Brown.
2a Set the trafo to maximum output.
3. Touch other lead of test lamp to S2-pin3 - Lamp should be bright. If yes, go to step 4.
3a. If no light then touch S2-pin2. If lamp lights then switch S2 is bad.
If S2 is bad then I can probably tell you how to swap switches and rewire.
4. Touch S2-pin4. Lamp should be about half bright. If yes go to step 5.
4a. If no light then visually check the connection between S2-pin3 and the one resistor.
4b. Then the connection between S2-pin4 and two resistors.
4c. Then the DC Gnd, brown wire to one resistor and back to the trafo.
5. Touch S2-pin 5 It should be half bright. If no light then the S2 switch may be bad and I can tell you how to swap switches and rewire to work.

Keep in mind that the resistor circuit creates about 1/2 the voltage of whatever the transformer is set to, so if the transformer is set at a low speed then 1/2 of that may not be enough to run the locomotive.

I assume the green and yellow lights are lit together in the above switch setting.
Good luck and let me know what you find.
George


Offline hgk  
#37 Posted : 26 October 2014 21:54:43(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,

The fact that everything worked fine for a couple of days then part of it does not tells us that something has changed. For any testing we want everything as it was when it was working. That would even include which engine was in use. The test lamp (or meter) must have tight connections to give a valid reading, or any reading at all. Be very methodical and sequential when troubleshooting. Try to make assumptions based on actual facts. Start at the beginning of the circuit, most time the power supply, then proceed forward one step at a time. If we jump around based on gut feelings sometimes we are right but if not then it often adds confusion to the process.

The fact that it worked normally in run-fast and stop modes tells us that the problem is likely in the run-slow circuit. The fact that in post #35 at step 3a there was no light tells us that there is likely a short somewhere when in run-slow mode. This is a good starting point for troubleshooting the problem.

Step 1. If you connect one test lamp lead to trafo brown and the other to S1-pin2 and move S1 to stop and S2 to slow, does the lamp light? This indicates a normal working stop state and based on your comment that run-fast and stop modes work the test lamp should be lit. If not, wait a minute in case the transformer's thermal switch was tripped. We should now be at a known, good working, starting point.

Step 2. Then when you switch S1 to run (S2 is in slow position) does the lamp turn off? (indicating a short somewhere downstream). If we have determined that there is a short somewhere we can then start disconnecting sections of the circuit to narrow it down. If the lamp is lit now, then it is contradictory to the testing results done by post #36 and I don't know why it's working.

Step 3. If there was a short it would overload the transformer and an internal thermal switch will open and shut the output power off. Switch S1 to stop for a minute to reset the thermal switch. The light will come on when the thermal switch resets.
Disconnect the wire from S2-pin5. Switch S1 to run, does the lamp light? If lit then S2 resistor circuit is ok. Short is somewhere after S2-pin 5. If lamp is still off goto Step 4.

Step 4. Switch S1 to stop for a minute to reset the thermal switch. The light will come on when the thermal switch resets.
Disconnect the wire from S2 pin4. Switch S1 to run, does the lamp light? If lit then short is in S2. If lamp is still off goto Step 5.

Step 5. Switch S1 to stop for a minute to reset the thermal switch. The light will come on when the thermal switch resets.
Disconnect the wire from S2-pin3. Switch S1 to run, does the lamp light? If lit then short is in the resistor circuit. You would need an ohmmeter to test the resistors but at least you know where the problem is. There should only be about 2 watts of heat there which would hardly feel warm. Did you happen to feel the resistors when working?
If lamp is still off then goto step 6.

Step 6. Switch S1 to stop for a minute to reset the thermal switch. The light will come on when the thermal switch resets.
Disconnect the wire from S2 pin 2. If lamp lights then short is in S2.
If lamp is still off then it should not work in run-fast mode which is in contradiction to testing done earlier at post #36.

I must say that when I look at what was written in post#34 and post#36, there are many inconsistencies that make it hard to draw any conclusions. If the above procedures do not point to anything then I would recommend finding someone locally with some basic electronic knowledge to look at it. I've also made some comments below in highlight.


Originally Posted by: Rocca Go to Quoted Post
Hi George,

I've checked very carefully as you suggested me and something real strange is happening: I don't know if they are good news or if the things are going worst! Anyway it happened that if I connect one lead of the lamp to Trafdo Brown and have all the checking there is no light on (the soldering to the resistors and to the relay seem strong), but if I connect one lead of the lamp to the ground side of the rail all is going as you wrote and the light is on. This does not make sense if every thing is the same for both tests and the only thing you have done is move the ground test wire from the trafo to the rail. I can't explain it. BTW you are using an incandescent lamp bulb for testing and not an led I hope.. Maybe it is just because I'm quite hopeless with electronic...lolCrying Crying Blushing Blushing Blushing Blushing You'll be an expert on track isolation when done with this!
Add that, if I coonect one lead to Trafo Brown and one to red, both directly to the Trafo with the speed at maximum the light is off. Sounds like a short circuit downstream. If i connect leads, one Brown and one to Yellow it works!! Just means that the yellow output is working normally (10vac) and the brown is a common ground to it. It does not figure in our troubleshooting.

Best regards and thanks again for all your help

Stefano Rocca


Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Stefano,
Based on what you wrote, try the following procedure to see if it leads to anything.

With no trains on track.
1. Put S1 switch in Run position, Put S2 switch in Slow position.
2. Connect one lead of test lamp to Trafo Brown.
2a Set the trafo to maximum output.
3. Touch other lead of test lamp to S2-pin3 - Lamp should be bright. If yes, go to step 4.
3a. If no light then touch S2-pin2. If lamp lights then switch S2 is bad.
If S2 is bad then I can probably tell you how to swap switches and rewire.
4. Touch S2-pin4. Lamp should be about half bright. If yes go to step 5.
4a. If no light then visually check the connection between S2-pin3 and the one resistor.
4b. Then the connection between S2-pin4 and two resistors.
4c. Then the DC Gnd, brown wire to one resistor and back to the trafo.
5. Touch S2-pin 5 It should be half bright. If no light then the S2 switch may be bad and I can tell you how to swap switches and rewire to work.

Keep in mind that the resistor circuit creates about 1/2 the voltage of whatever the transformer is set to, so if the transformer is set at a low speed then 1/2 of that may not be enough to run the locomotive.

I assume the green and yellow lights are lit together in the above switch setting.
Good luck and let me know what you find.
George


Edited by user 27 October 2014 05:10:57(UTC)  | Reason: added step #6 & fixed typos then added thermal switch wait.

Offline Rocca  
#38 Posted : 27 October 2014 20:10:14(UTC)
Rocca

Italy   
Joined: 28/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 615
Hi George,

Thank you again so so so much for your help, but I don't want to annoy you more about the things happening. I decided to check all the wirings and re-make them again and if I can't fix it, I'll just come back to my old system with no lew-speed in front of yellow/green lights...lol
Anyway, thank you again so much...It is a pleasure knowing you!!
Best regards
Stefano Rocca
Offline hgk  
#39 Posted : 27 October 2014 21:05:51(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Hi Stefano,
Your most welcome anytime.
Unfortunately the troubleshooting process can require much more patience than the design or assembly process.
I've also found that there is always a quick fix for any of these problems but you don't know what it is till after you've solved it.
Best wishes,
George
Offline hxmiesa  
#40 Posted : 30 October 2014 10:32:53(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
My layout is analog 3-rail, and I use DIODE-PAIRS to drop voltage to the tracks. Not only for slow running as your try to do here, but for whole brake- and acceleration tracks. (using more or less pairs of diodes)
In my opinon you do NOT want to use resistances for dropping voltage, because the drop is not constant, but depends on the load. With a diode, the drop is always 0,7V.
I even go a step further, and have equipped all of my locos with 0,1,2 or even 3 diode-pairs INSIDE, in series with the motor, so that each loco has a different top-speed, while the voltage to teh track is always the same.

I use releays to switch in the normal track-power, -or to feed the tracks through the diodes; That way, the tracks leading to a STOP signal will be fed gradually slower voltage, while if the signal shows GO, the normal track-voltage is applied up until the signal.

Many words, so here´s a drawing showin the idea;
[img=http://www.majhost.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=824603]http://www.majhost.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=824603[/img]
http://www.majhost.com/c...bin/gallery.cgi?i=824603
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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