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Offline biedmatt  
#101 Posted : 06 October 2014 12:44:30(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I have replaced a lot of MTC21 decoders and have not had any problems getting them to work. Perhaps I have been lucky. As Tom states, there is more than one standard for the 21 pin connector. Edit: I do not know if Marklin uses more than one standard.

I did have trouble identifying which output was under which decoder function. Slider changeover relays (2 functions btw), power for sinus drives, interior lighting, all needed to be configured with trial and error until I bought the ESU decoder tester and could quickly identify output-function pairings. Marklin tries to put outputs under the same decoder function. Sinus drive power is usually F4, but this is not steadfast and true.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline H0  
#102 Posted : 06 October 2014 13:47:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
So, I guess the question being specifically asked is whether an ESU Loksound 4.0 decoder with 21 pin socket will work in the 21 pin mtc interface board that came with a mSD decoder that is fitted into a loco with a DCM motor (not in a later loco with a locked mSD decoder)?
The decoder will work - but items connected to AUX3 or AUX4 could be a problem.

@Matt: old mfx decoders came from ESU and locos had 21MTC boards compatible with NEM 660. Newer locos come with Märklin mfx decoders and may require AUX3 or AUX4 to be amplified and ESU decoders will not work.
Some locos do not use AUX3 or AUX4 and both types of decoders can be used.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#103 Posted : 06 October 2014 22:08:40(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Thanks Tom. That particular loco (BR53) as converted has smoke on AUX1 and the Condenser Fans on AUX2, nothing on AUX3 or AUX4.
Offline H0  
#104 Posted : 11 October 2014 09:12:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Yesterday night I attended a club meeting.
We had problems with mfx registration - using Märklin locos and a Märklin Central Station.

After some trial and error we found out that we just had to lift the centre rail slider of the Märklin 43204/43252 coach set off the track to get locos to register.
Each time we put new locos on the track, we just put a sheet of paper under the centre rail slider of the 43252 and the locos would register. ThumpUp

It's known for a long time that interior lights with a buffering capacitor can disturb mfx feedback. Bad sign that factory-installed interior lights also function as an mfx feedback filter.
Running locos can also disturb mfx feedback. At another club meeting where we were using the MS2 we had to stop all trains because running trains would prevent the registration of new locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#105 Posted : 11 October 2014 09:18:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Yesterday night I attended a club meeting.
We had problems with mfx registration - using Märklin locos and a Märklin Central Station.

After some trial and error we found out that we just had to lift the centre rail slider of the Märklin 43204/43252 coach set off the track to get locos to register.
Each time we put new locos on the track, we just put a sheet of paper under the centre rail slider of the 43252 and the locos would register. ThumpUp

It's known for a long time that interior lights with a buffering capacitor can disturb mfx feedback. Bad sign that factory-installed interior lights also function as an mfx feedback filter.
Running locos can also disturb mfx feedback. At another club meeting where we were using the MS2 we had to stop all trains because running trains would prevent the registration of new locos.


An simple question...
Do Märklin have buffering capacitor too in the lighting sets?

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#106 Posted : 11 October 2014 13:17:02(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Yesterday night I attended a club meeting.
We had problems with mfx registration - using Märklin locos and a Märklin Central Station.

After some trial and error we found out that we just had to lift the centre rail slider of the Märklin 43204/43252 coach set off the track to get locos to register.
Each time we put new locos on the track, we just put a sheet of paper under the centre rail slider of the 43252 and the locos would register. ThumpUp

It's known for a long time that interior lights with a buffering capacitor can disturb mfx feedback. Bad sign that factory-installed interior lights also function as an mfx feedback filter.
Running locos can also disturb mfx feedback. At another club meeting where we were using the MS2 we had to stop all trains because running trains would prevent the registration of new locos.


That's why Märklin say that nothing else should be on the track when registering a loco. I guess we can't blame the technology if we don't follow the given instructions properly!

I have 2 Railcom locos - my ESU BR215 and my KM1 BR01 Gauge 1 loco. The KM1 registers fine (and within a few seconds) on my Ecos, even though there are coaches on the track.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#107 Posted : 11 October 2014 13:18:16(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Do Märklin have buffering capacitor too in the lighting sets?


They don't have a capacitor in my G1 coaches......
Offline H0  
#108 Posted : 11 October 2014 13:30:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
That's why Märklin say that nothing else should be on the track when registering a loco.
Where do they write that?

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I guess we can't blame the technology if we don't follow the given instructions properly!
Nowadays we want technology that works without reading manuals.

Here's what I found in the Central Station manual:
Quote:
Place locomotives to be registered one after the other on the
layout. If several locomotives to be registered are on the track
at the same time, the complete process can take considerably
longer to complete.
They don't write that only one loco should be on the layout. Just add one loco and wait until it finishes registration to save time.

mfx+ also relies on mfx feedback.
Would be very cool if the Spielewelt cab imitation only worked with a single loco on the track, wouldn't it?
Maybe Spielewelt won't work if you have the snoring sleeping car activated on the layout.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#109 Posted : 11 October 2014 16:15:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I´m not really sure,if Railcom with feedback do have disturb too,when there is buffering capacitor in the lighting sets.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#110 Posted : 11 October 2014 17:21:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I´m not really sure,if Railcom with feedback do have disturb too,when there is buffering capacitor in the lighting sets.
RailCom feedback works completely different. Disturbance from buffering capacitors is IMHO very unlikely.
RailCom is optional and can be disabled in the decoder. If RailCom fails, the loco can still be registered manually using DCC.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#111 Posted : 14 October 2014 02:04:52(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Here's what I found in the Central Station manual:
Quote:
Place locomotives to be registered one after the other on the
layout. If several locomotives to be registered are on the track
at the same time, the complete process can take considerably
longer to complete.
They don't write that only one loco should be on the layout. Just add one loco and wait until it finishes registration to save time.


You're splitting hairs there a bit Tom! Even if it isn't written down formally, it has always been accepted convention that you will get faster and more reliable registration if only 1 mfx locomotive is on the track when registering.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
That's why Märklin say that nothing else should be on the track when registering a loco.
Where do they write that?


However, I knew I had seen it written down somewhere and indeed I have. See page 17 in the Ecos 2 manual (even if it is ESU saying it and not Märklin).

"11.2.1. Entering M4 locomotives
..............

We recommend placing new locomotives on the layout one at
a time. If there are several new locomotives on the layout then
the registration process may be unnecessarily delayed."
Offline xxup  
#112 Posted : 14 October 2014 02:19:44(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
I agree with BigDaddyNZ - I have see it written somewhere too.. I think that one of the English edition Insider or Marklin magazines tells you that only one new mFx loco should be on the track at one time..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline biedmatt  
#113 Posted : 14 October 2014 05:37:31(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I think Tom is saying that you must have only one new loko on the track. That is very different from only one loko on the track during registration. If it is the latter, then you must remove all lokos except the new one from the track. Very impractical and what affect would that have on re-registration? Would you then loose sync with prior registrations and end up with the other lokos re-registering when placed on the track? All this strange and abnormal operation is exactly why MFX is such a mess. Do this, but do it exactly like this, in this prescribed order or you will end up with your lokos having to re-register. Why must we have so many conditions on a system sold as plug and play?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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H0
Offline H0  
#114 Posted : 14 October 2014 07:57:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
However, I knew I had seen it written down somewhere and indeed I have. See page 17 in the Ecos 2 manual (even if it is ESU saying it and not Märklin).

"11.2.1. Entering M4 locomotives
..............

We recommend placing new locomotives on the layout one at
a time. If there are several new locomotives on the layout then
the registration process may be unnecessarily delayed."
We had three locos on the track - and one coach set with interior lights. One loco and the coach set were already registered. The mfx sign was off and no registration took place for the two unregistered locos until we put a sheet of paper under the centre rail slider of the sleeping coach.

Later one of the locos was taken off the track and another loco was added. The mfx sign was off and no registration took place until we put a sheet of paper under the centre rail slider of the sleeping coach.

You call it "splitting hairs". We followed recommendations and still it did not work as intended.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#115 Posted : 14 October 2014 10:35:30(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
I think Tom is saying that you must have only one new loko on the track. That is very different from only one loko on the track during registration. If it is the latter, then you must remove all lokos except the new one from the track.


I often have a rolling road or some pieces of track plugged into the programming track output on the Ecos / CS2. That way it is easy to unplug the layout, leaving only the programming track connected.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You call it "splitting hairs".


You're taking me out of context there - the splitting hairs comment referred to you questioning whether there were written instructions or not, to have only 1 loco on track when registering a mfx loco. Nothing to do with what you had to do at your club to get your locos registered.
Offline MalinAC  
#116 Posted : 14 October 2014 12:41:23(UTC)
MalinAC

Ireland   
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH
After seeing all the problems on this post about MFX and all the other new fangled digital gadets I know I was right to stay Analoque. No trouble and everything works as it should - most of the time. Stay happy and positive Eddie Cool Cool
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Offline Deborail  
#117 Posted : 15 October 2014 08:11:23(UTC)
Deborail

United Arab Emirates   
Joined: 06/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 819
Location: RAK
Last night I received a new loco, the French Crocodile, BB 12000 series, Trix 22336, and this comes with an MFX decoder. I must say that there is no need to do the programming with this decoder. It auto-programs itself and its ready to run once it is placed even on the main track. I used to like the procedure of opening up the loco and installing the decoder and then putting the loco on the programming track to program it.

I don't know if I can say that I dislike mfx, I feel ambivalent.
George

Given enough time, tasks manage themselves.
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Offline RayF  
#118 Posted : 15 October 2014 11:47:32(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: MalinAC Go to Quoted Post
After seeing all the problems on this post about MFX and all the other new fangled digital gadets I know I was right to stay Analoque. No trouble and everything works as it should - most of the time. Stay happy and positive Eddie Cool Cool


Eddie, are you sure you're happy with analogue electric operation? Why not stick to tried and tested clockwork? No problem with the technology there!

BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline perz  
#119 Posted : 15 October 2014 23:00:03(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Interior lights with big capacitors are very likely to kill the mfx feedback signal. The feedback is achieved by varying the current consumption of the decoder. This variation is then converted to a signal voltage in a signal transformer in the controller (or in the mfx capable boosters). A big capacitor in the circuit will even out the current variations so that they get too weak to be picked up by the controller.

This is the same electrical principle as in the Digitrax system.

The Railcom works differently. Here the feedback is a voltage driven by stored energy in the decoder during short periods of "dead" track voltage. This can of course also be disturbed by other things on the track, but since the principle is fundamentally different from mfx feedback it can be completely different things that disturb it.

By the way, the mfx protocol itself can very well be operated without feedback, by using manual registration. The fact that this option is not offered in the controllers seems to be only a marketing decision.
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Offline Deborail  
#120 Posted : 16 October 2014 07:07:30(UTC)
Deborail

United Arab Emirates   
Joined: 06/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 819
Location: RAK
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
Interior lights with big capacitors are very likely to kill the mfx feedback signal. The feedback is achieved by varying the current consumption of the decoder. This variation is then converted to a signal voltage in a signal transformer in the controller (or in the mfx capable boosters). A big capacitor in the circuit will even out the current variations so that they get too weak to be picked up by the controller.

This is the same electrical principle as in the Digitrax system.

The Railcom works differently. Here the feedback is a voltage driven by stored energy in the decoder during short periods of "dead" track voltage. This can of course also be disturbed by other things on the track, but since the principle is fundamentally different from mfx feedback it can be completely different things that disturb it.

By the way, the mfx protocol itself can very well be operated without feedback, by using manual registration. The fact that this option is not offered in the controllers seems to be only a marketing decision.


Hello Perz, your comments about the various electronic phenomena occuring are very interesting. I have a DSO (Digital Oscilloscope) and a Wavefrom Generator. I wonder if these two could be put to use to observe these phenomena. Unfortunately my knowledge in electronics is limited but I am still very interested.
George

Given enough time, tasks manage themselves.
Offline perz  
#121 Posted : 16 October 2014 23:32:03(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: Deborail Go to Quoted Post

Hello Perz, your comments about the various electronic phenomena occuring are very interesting. I have a DSO (Digital Oscilloscope) and a Wavefrom Generator. I wonder if these two could be put to use to observe these phenomena. Unfortunately my knowledge in electronics is limited but I am still very interested.


With a digital oscilloscope you can observe the signal behaviour and also see different disturbances. Measuring on mfx feedback is a bit tricky since it is small current variations on top of a large current, which is also varying, but slower. An oscilloscope is however not really sufficient if you want to analyze the data patterns on the signals going back and forth. Then you need some kind of protocol spy tool, with capability to take longer recordings than a normal digital oscilloscope can. I built such a spy tool for my investigations but it only supports analysis of the forward signalling so far.

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Offline leahcim  
#122 Posted : 17 October 2014 05:09:33(UTC)
leahcim

Australia   
Joined: 12/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: QUEENSLAND, BRISBANE
Hi Perz,

I know a lot of DSO's are limited in memory depth which can make it difficult to spy on some signals.
But the oscilloscope can handle the voltages used in marklin digital better than some other logic devices.
What kind of length of time do you think is necesary to monitor the mfx signal?
Having only just got the grasp of the motorola protocol I haven't studied any information on mfx. All that I've found so far is
in German.
As I only have an old analogue scope I bought one of these cheap logic analyzers off ebay.
So far I have been able to look at the signals generated by my delta controller so at under $10 I think it was a
good buy.
Anyone buying one of these cheap analyzers does need to understand about using a diode and voltage divider
to keep the voltages between 0 and 5v tolerance of this device.
The software is free and I think it's great value. I'm not sure when I will have access to an mfx controller to see
how it works with that.

regards
michael
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Offline perz  
#123 Posted : 17 October 2014 19:34:35(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: leahcim Go to Quoted Post
Hi Perz,

What kind of length of time do you think is necesary to monitor the mfx signal?


To really get a feeling for what is going on we are talking about several minutes. Of course you can see some interesting things with much shorter traces too, but you will only get fragments then.



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Offline Deborail  
#124 Posted : 19 October 2014 07:56:51(UTC)
Deborail

United Arab Emirates   
Joined: 06/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 819
Location: RAK
I will try this when my scope and gen arrive...
George

Given enough time, tasks manage themselves.
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