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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 27 August 2014 08:56:49(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

I have been pondering where to build my layout. Despite having a decent sized bungalow, family and other needs means it can't really be in the house...

So,

- Garage

- Loft

- Garden

- Top of garage?

Garage isn't ideal, I do a lot of work on my cars and need the space in the garage for tools and parts, plus it's dirty. I suppose it could be done if I have to...

Loft, I'm not going to convert or make the loft pretty, don't have the time or money. Loft is massive though, 120m2. I'm worried about the dust up there and having it in the loft means I wouldn't be able to show people and it would be a bit lonely up there.

Garden, we have an 800m2 garden, so could potentially fit it somewhere. I have been wondering if I could have it covered by the kind of acrylic top that models in trains stations and other public places have? Has anyone tried this?

Top of garage... Again would need a cover and I would need planning permission as well, I'm sure, as the garage is a meter from the boundary with our neighbours.

Hmm... How do people find the space for their set-up...
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 27 August 2014 09:12:42(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Very good question!

In Gibraltar space is at a premium, and most people live in apartments. When we moved into our present flat I negotiated with the domestic authorities and eventually obtained a corner of my son's bedroom to build a 2m X 1m layout. This is not ideal, especially when my son is in residence, but now that the kids are grown up I might be able to eventually expand a bit more.

Before the house move all my railway modelling had to be able to vanish when not in use. I went through a series of attempts at a permanent small layout. I started a shelf layout in OO (LNER branch line station), and an N gauge GWR branch terminus which fitted under the bed, both of which never came to fruition, though I still have the trains and some of the buildings.

Meanwhile I occasionally brought out my old Marklin trains and ran them on a carpet layout, and in the 1980s I started to buy new Marklin again to build up a small collection for the day I would be able to have a proper Marklin layout. My collection now runs to 127 locos and numerous items of stock, and I would never be able to build a layout that would accomodate all of them, but I can always dream!

I know this doesn't help with your problem, but I thought I'd share how I coped in a similar situation.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 27 August 2014 09:15:58(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Just a quick afterthought...

Have you considered a shed? There are many sizes of ready made garden sheds available at reasonable prices which I'm sure could occupy a corner of your large garden. You would have to make it reasonably weather proof and secure, but it's doable
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline morsing  
#4 Posted : 27 August 2014 09:55:15(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Actually, I did think of a shed! We love the garden though, so want to keep sheds to a minimum. It would have to be a pretty big shed as well.

TBH, I'd rather have a shed and keep some of all the stuff from the garage in there and have the trains in the garage.

I am constantly pondering the loft idea though, access is a problem though.
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by morsing
Offline Shamu  
#5 Posted : 27 August 2014 10:05:21(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Its a worry, we are hopefully moving to be near kids/grandkids etc and I'm trying my best to convince the other half that we should buy a Queenslander. For non Aussies they tend to be rather large homes more often than not built on stilts so that would give me a area equivalent to the entire house underneath for all my choo-choos.

Not that it helps you at all, depending on the size you are after have you considered a layout in the garage and a pulley system to get it out of the way when needed ? Just a thought. I've also seen some fairly nifty folding stairs that may be a option for your loft.

My biggest concern is keeping everything weather/dust/cat and kid proof.

Best of luck finding a solution.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 27 August 2014 10:21:08(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Morsig,

the end result it looks like money. so you have to do your numbers and see which is the cheapest, best protected against heat, cold, freezing and wet conditions. I think this should be your first priority.

secondly; a croft can always be insulated, windows or a window added if necessary, , power supply is most probably cheaper to because of the power supply already coming from the house, telephone connection or PC. toilet facilities are in the house so if it snows, rains or there is a severe storm outside you don't have to juggle with the weather elements.

thirdly: having an outlook from the croft you may see things you otherwise wouldn't notice, people wandedring around, cars going up and down the road and the local animal society having their daily meeting at the street corner.

to put a window into the croft you do need a planing permission or need a planing application but I would think it would be far cheaper than erecting a shed with no insulation, no power supply or telephone connection.

As a long term project, get your window in first, than get it insulated and a power supply and the rest can follow

I wouldn't go ahead without a planing permission as there has been a case whereas a fellow did this, somehow the council found out and told him the construction of the loft wasn't secure and didn't comply with structural by laws and he was told if he did not remove everything in the loft he would be prosecuted. if my memory serves me right, he did some structural work himself, I think the case of a fire was also an issue not having an adequate staircase.
by consulting an architect he could do all the plans and submission to the council and they usually can give you a quote how much it is going to cost you.

furthermore if you ever think of selling your home, it would be an asset to have a loft as another room or two.

as much as wife's don't support our hobby they always offer a good cup of tea and a piece of home made cake, my wife enjoys doing it, she gets 3 kicks out of it, a.) exercise, b.) to see if I'm still alive, c.) making sure I'm not starving to death or dying of thirst.

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline jvuye  
#7 Posted : 27 August 2014 10:28:20(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hi there.
120 m2 loft?
I would not hesitate a minute, providing you have enough head clearance.
Maybe a small investment to make it "liveable"...but a shed would not be for free either!
See below what I have done at my place (and it's only 80m2)
A stair is easy to install, you can find spiral ones in kit, and they're easy to install, and have a reduced footprint on both levels!
Just buy the number of steps you need and that's it!
I also installed AC with a reversible heat pump: cool in summer, toasty in winter, and constant air filtering helps keeping dust down, and most of all keep woodwork stable thanks to constant humidity levels.

jvuye attached the following image(s):
avant.jpg
après.jpg
liteP2087379.jpg
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 7 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Chook  
#8 Posted : 27 August 2014 13:13:47(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
Or you could put into an old railway wagon.
I am partway through a restoration for my Marklin home.

Chook attached the following image(s):
IMG_9983.JPG
IMG_0040.JPG
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Chook
Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 28 August 2014 05:23:38(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
I have seen a number of layouts designed to fit in garages described in Loki and other publications. You may not have that much space to work with, but if you plan to have the layout at a height where the nose of your car can fit underneath it, a nice L- or U-shaped layout can be fit in most garages very easily. You would have to keep the main body of the layout rather narrow and use opposing curves to limit the width at crucial points, but it should be relatively easy to do. The other possibility would be to design it so that it can be lifted out of the way when not in use.

Regards

Mike C
Offline cookee_nz  
#10 Posted : 28 August 2014 06:07:05(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,946
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Chook Go to Quoted Post
Or you could put into an old railway wagon.
I am partway through a restoration for my Marklin home.



I'm sure an old railway carriage for a train-den would be a dream for many of us here, provided we had the space, the availability of one, the funds and of course the skills to do the conversion.

Good luck with it.

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline analogmike  
#11 Posted : 28 August 2014 18:01:51(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
i agree with shamu. a pulley system to lift the layout when not in use. when it is in the up position it can fit nice and tight into an insulated cover attached to the ceiling. the benchwork must be stiff to prevent flexing. it can have folding legs (comercialy available metal type). square or rectangular shape will be most practical. use an adjustable counterweight to balance the motion. can be motorized (impress your friends) but a simple crank will do. and finally think of how nice it will be to wire it in the up position. mike
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline Chook  
#12 Posted : 29 August 2014 14:50:02(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Chook Go to Quoted Post
Or you could put into an old railway wagon.
I am partway through a restoration for my Marklin home.



I'm sure an old railway carriage for a train-den would be a dream for many of us here, provided we had the space, the availability of one, the funds and of course the skills to do the conversion.

Good luck with it.

Cookee


Cookee it is taking an age to do.
I have completely stripped all of the wood (what was left of it) and am now waiting for the access track to dry out so that a commercial sand blasting truck can get to it for blasting without becoming bogged. The trick is to get some hot weather immediately afterwards (before the exposed metal has a chance to rust) so that I can apply the 2 pack industrial paint to the whole thing. I have several tonnes of Jarrah hardwood to then machine and attach to get the thing waterproofed and looking like a wagon again. Then lining, electrical, final paint and THEN the Marklin install.

Yep big job.
I will update my thread with pics and words when things start moving a little quicker.

Regards....Chook.
Offline morsing  
#13 Posted : 30 August 2014 20:50:43(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Hi, some good suggestions here...

Mike, I live in Britain where no garage is ever big enough to fit a car in, so it's not the car that's in the way.

I've realised that the temperature fluctuations in the loft would be un-bearable. Freezing in winter and 40C in the summer. And there's no way I'm doing a loft conversion for this.

I think the garage wins. It just needs a realy good tidy-up!

No-one commented on an outdoor one with a plexiglass cover though... Maybe it hasn't been done?
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline analogmike  
#14 Posted : 30 August 2014 22:16:07(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
describe the garage. overhead door? is there second door? is there entry from the house. size. type of floor etc......outdoor plexiglass not an option. i'll explain later. mike
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline Tom Jessop  
#15 Posted : 30 August 2014 23:14:40(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


Renting or own the house is the first problem . If renting you can not do any alterations without owners approval . If you own I suggest that you rip out the garage doors & install a sliding glass window , then insulate the walls & ceiling before installing Gyprock /dry wall. Maybe a decent size ac to heat or cool or if there is central heating run a duct in . I did all of this at our previous house where I had a double garage for the train room ,was turned into a nice cosy room without needing council permission because there were no external dimension alterations needed .Dust & humidity will be the biggest problem you will have ,fix this & your hallway there.

Cheers Tom in Oz.
Offline jvuye  
#16 Posted : 31 August 2014 09:40:59(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post

Hi, some good suggestions here...

Mike, I live in Britain where no garage is ever big enough to fit a car in, so it's not the car that's in the way.

I've realised that the temperature fluctuations in the loft would be un-bearable. Freezing in winter and 40C in the summer....


Well, I live in SW France were the climate is definitely warmer than Buckinghamshire!!BigGrin
So we know about fluctuations here too. Laugh
I insulated the roof and walls in the loft, improving at the same time the entire (16th century!!) house energy efficiency.ThumpUp
The reversible heat pump/ AC maintains perfect constant temp and humidity and keeps humidity constant and because of the better insulation, my overall energy bill is **lower** since I did the job on the loft.
Of course every situation is a bit different...and making an estimate of the various options, divided by the surface made available woul give you a $/sq.ft price for the various options.

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline morsing  
#17 Posted : 01 September 2014 14:05:42(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
describe the garage. overhead door? is there second door? is there entry from the house. size. type of floor etc......outdoor plexiglass not an option. i'll explain later. mike


- Up-and-over broken door that will be replaced with side-hung doors

- Side door to garden

- No entry from house

- 9' x 20' ? (Guessing)

- Concrete floor
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline analogmike  
#18 Posted : 03 September 2014 02:46:16(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
hello morsing, looks like tom jessop has the right idea here on how to handle the garage. it's got to be climate controlled and you're in for allot of work. then to compound the issue the space has to function as double duty
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by analogmike
Offline analogmike  
#19 Posted : 03 September 2014 03:27:24(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
continued....for your tools and auto repair which requires that you open the big doors resulting in total loss of heat/air conditioning. then the issue of dirt. i know, i do the same thing. working on cars, motorcycles, lawn equipment, welding etc. i feel for you man. you're in a tough spot. you mentioned some type of outdoor acrylic modules. all they are going to do is ''sweat'' inside causing the beloved railroad to look like the titanic in a short time. have you thought of elevating the tracks on clear shelves indoors? sorry.... just a thought. if all else fails; switch over to large scale outdoor garden railroads. totally corrosion resistant year round. perhaps join a modular railroad club. it can be very rewarding. i'm just trying to help. good luck. don't give up! mike.
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by analogmike
Offline Tom Jessop  
#20 Posted : 03 September 2014 07:25:37(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


I should have added that we lived on acres 15 mins from Lithgow ,the home of the Great Zig Zag . When we moved there in Feb 2000 I used the double garage as a store room while we un packed & had considerable time to think about what & where . Ended up building a large conservatory with all glass walls & also a double garage double carport shed further down the block ,this became my garden storage shed , tool /workshop & room to get 1 vehicle into the shed . We also had a large 4 bay cattery built under 1 side in the carport area ,being responsible cat owners & letting it be known that we would be able to board cats for people when on holidays became a little money earner for the wife .

After all of this was up & running I then concentrated my thoughts on to the original double garage & the conversion to a useable room for any thing that was desired if & when we sold Double glass sliding doors were installed first then framework for the dry wall along with R3 insulation [the highest rating we can get in Oz ] plus enough power outlets to sink a ship , down lights in abundance , then in when the walls , the ceiling was already in place , A/C installed & I was then in action ready to start doing frame work for THE layout , I tried a few different ideas but was never satisfied . A friend of ours who was also into "M" contacted me about a second hand layout that was gathering dust & everything else considering it was covered up in a open garage & had been there for about 5 years . I had seen this layout about 25 years before when it was operational & had a lot of 3900 series track ,full double track catenary & trains when running took about 7 minutes to do a full circle from start to finish . Money changed hands very quickly as it was at a bargain bottom price as it had to be out of the garage in a month .

Loaded on to my truck & back to my place where it sat in many pieces for about 6 months while I decided what to do ,rebuild as before or a totally new layout . Decided on looping it into the present loops I already had set up & started to run trains . This is now about 2010 , a lot of decision was needed along with shift work driving real trains .

Had a good offer to change companies & work for a English group called Freightliner who were just starting in Oz , we had to move to Newcastle for their company . Now I have a decent size rectangular room & restarting with another new layout idea . At least I am now retired so will be able to devote more time to models etc if I can ever get away from the computer looking at other peoples ideas for their model bahn .

Hows that for a railway life story .



Cheers Tom in Oz
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Offline Ian555  
#21 Posted : 03 September 2014 08:41:22(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Morsing,

I asked the same question just over 5 years ago....

Built a 5m by 6m Log Cabin (45mm walls) and this was a great success.

Then 2 years ago built a 120m2 purpose built Train House.

The UK Marklin Club hold regular meeting's (every couple of months or so ) I think the next one is at my place, you would be welcome to join in the fun...

Ian.


..


..

....
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Offline Br502362  
#22 Posted : 03 September 2014 09:21:51(UTC)
Br502362

Finland   
Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Finland
Hi,

How about a (insulated) freight container?
There are many sizes to choose from.

One of my friends just bought one and moved all his
reloading machines and other gun stuff (with out guns of course) to it
and made free space to their home which his wife can now fill up LOL

Best regards

Åke

thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Br502362
Offline morsing  
#23 Posted : 04 September 2014 10:01:27(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Morsing,

I asked the same question just over 5 years ago....

Built a 5m by 6m Log Cabin (45mm walls) and this was a great success.

....



I did think about this, but don't want to ruin the garden and views...

I'm trying to plan a layout in half the garage, but the garage is quite narrow causing design problems. Drawing something up in SCARM at the moment, but it's difficult...

-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline analogmike  
#24 Posted : 06 September 2014 04:07:47(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
what kind of track? mike
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline morsing  
#25 Posted : 06 September 2014 18:04:11(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
what kind of track? mike


C-track.

I've got a couple of SCARM plans now, but want to build on them. Also want to build in two or three levels...
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline analogmike  
#26 Posted : 11 September 2014 13:54:14(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
i always use the old plastic marklin template and pencil method. not that i haven't tried it with the computer, it's just more fun that way. i am always amazed at how accurate it can be when i start laying track (+ - 1/8''). btw are c-track switch radii the same as m-track? post what you got so far and maybe we can get something going. mike
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline kiwiAlan  
#27 Posted : 11 September 2014 14:32:13(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
btw are c-track switch radii the same as m-track? post what you got so far and maybe we can get something going. mike


No they are not. The 24611/2 points are R2 radius where the 5117 points are R1 radius. I am not sure if the track centre spacing is the same, but I think it is.

Offline analogmike  
#28 Posted : 11 September 2014 18:17:52(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
i'll bet this was covered in a previous topic forum. thanks for the info. looks like i gotta find a new template. mike
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline morsing  
#29 Posted : 12 September 2014 19:56:28(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
i always use the old plastic marklin template and pencil method. not that i haven't tried it with the computer, it's just more fun that way. i am always amazed at how accurate it can be when i start laying track (+ - 1/8''). btw are c-track switch radii the same as m-track? post what you got so far and maybe we can get something going. mike


Hi,

This is by no means the final or actual design I'm going with, I was just playing around with Scarm and trying out some concepts.

I do like the double loop idea of entering different tracks on the main station, which means the train can go round in circles but will enter the station in four different ways in one "trip".

I would like to make the main station longer though, and put the two loops at different levels. I could possibly make it into an L-shape as wel.

1st ideas

I have also played around with a large triangular corner piece with the main station on the long edge away form the corner and a long stretch along the wall.

EDIT: Looking at the above, there are too many station stops per track length. The trains would barely get started... The top secondary station needs to be scrapped.

Edited by user 13 September 2014 14:57:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline analogmike  
#30 Posted : 13 September 2014 20:25:29(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 735
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
for a start it looks like a nice plan. there are however several locations with ''s'' curves. they will cause all sorts of trouble. making it a habit to avoid these early on in the design process is good practice. do you have overall dimensions for the layout yet? will there be access along the back wall? in the past i have relied on ''pop-up'' hatches but later on in life my body frowns on these. something to think about. i see way to many layouts become a pain in the butt to maintain and operate before they are even finished. mike
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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