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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 03 August 2014 09:05:54(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I did noticed in my MS2 with BR64,that there is Vmax and Vmin.
I know what acc and dec is for,but not Vmax and Vmin.
What is Vmax and Vmin...?
It don´t stand anywhere in the manual either.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 03 August 2014 09:16:10(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
V stands for Velocity.
Vmax is the maximum speed (full throttle), Vmin is the minimum speed (at speed step 1).

For some of my locos I adjusted Vmax to get the prototypically correct speed at full throttle.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 03 August 2014 09:22:01(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Ahhh...i did get it.
Thanks Tom!
But how much should i adjust Vmax for my BR64?
I can choise speedstep 1 with Vmin.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 03 August 2014 09:52:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
But how much should i adjust Vmax for my BR64?
That's up to you.
If you want the correct scale speed (90 km/h) then you will need measuring equipment (a ruler and a stopwatch will do).
Or maybe another owner of the same model can give you his/her Vmax setting.
It's the 39644, isn't it?

I only have the BR 64 with SDS, so my Vmax settings won't do you any good.

You can also set it as you like it without measuring.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 03 August 2014 10:06:14(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I don't know if this is helpful, but I always set my Vmax so that when the throttle is on maximum the loco looks like it is travelling just a bit too fast to my eye. I then run that loco between half and 3/4 throttle in normal operation.

I know it's not very scientific, but it more or less works.

Some locos, like my T3, are not very fast even at maximum speed, and these I set to the highest value for Vmax.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Janne75  
#6 Posted : 03 August 2014 10:40:40(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi Anders,

What is the Vmax range for this loco? If it is 1-63 try first around 30 and see or measure if it looks good in your eyes. If the speed range is 1-255, try around 120-125. If you decide to measure the speed like I usually always do myself, here is some tips:

Measure some long enough straight track section lenght. I use my straight 144 cm long bridges. Then convert this to real 1:1 scale lenght from our 1:87 scale. My 144 cm long bridges are for example 125,28 meter long in "true World" 1:1. Just 144 x 0,87 = 125,28 and you get the measurement in meters. Then when you know the lenght/distance of your straight track section measure the time it takes of your loco to travel this. Please note that you should get your time measured precise enough. I use myself one decimal precision = 2,9 or 3,0 or 3,1 seconds etc. Then just divide your distance in meters by your time in seconds = for example 125,28 meters : 3,0 seconds. You get from this example 41,76 m/s and then multiply this by value 3,6 = 150,336 km/h. Why multiply by 3,6? Because one m/s is the same as 3,6 km/h. If you want 90 km/h this is then 90 km/h : 3,6 = 25 m/s. With this speed it takes around 5,0 seconds to travel the same 125,28 meter (in H0 1:87 scale 144 long) bridge.

I hope you or someone else will find this way to measure loco speed usefull. RollEyes I have adjusted most of my locos speeds by this method. I always change the speedo range in the CS2 also to suit better the locos speed range. It looks so funny if the speedo is from 0-350, 0-300 or 0-250 km/h in an old slow moving loco with the scale top speed of 60 km/h BigGrin .

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Goofy  
#7 Posted : 03 August 2014 11:46:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I did tested by adjust value with Vmin.
It did stand 18 as standard from Märklin.
I scroll down to 1.
There is no difference by start speedup with the knob.
It seems that Vmin and Vmax is perhaps waste with mfx+ decoder and only difference to adjust acc and dec instead.
I suppose to act like locodriver by speedup the knob,makes Vmin and Vmax unnecessary to use it.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Janne75  
#8 Posted : 03 August 2014 22:21:09(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I did tested by adjust value with Vmin.
It did stand 18 as standard from Märklin.
I scroll down to 1.
There is no difference by start speedup with the knob.
It seems that Vmin and Vmax is perhaps waste with mfx+ decoder and only difference to adjust acc and dec instead.
I suppose to act like locodriver by speedup the knob,makes Vmin and Vmax unnecessary to use it.


Firstly I'm no expert with these settings. Secondly I don't own any loco with mfx+ decoder, but many with normal mfx decoder.

I have noticed that in many newer locos with new type motors the factory value for Vmin is much higher than 1. Just like in your example. Same with SDS motors. It is not good to put so low value in them like value 1 as there is some reason for having it much higher. I think motor needs higher starting voltage or starting current so factory has set a higher value. In my own tests I have found out it is practical to set a lower value than factory value, but it definitely needs to be higher than 1. Around 5-10 in many cases and it depends of the loco, it's gear ratio, driving wheel size and motor type + flywheel inertia. Bigger/heavier flywheel, more motor torque with very low voltage/current and higher gear ratio (runs slower but stronger) and smaller driving wheel size loco can have very different Vmin setting than loco without flywheel, very weak torque with very low voltage/current and higher gear ratio (runs faster but does not accelerate as fast and has not the same pulling power) and larger driving wheel size. Normally Märklin and other manufacturers have their loco done as combinations of these and not these kinds of "extremes".

I have had the same problems setting some values (Vmin, Vmax, acc, dec...) with my CS2 in some locos. I don't remember anything about MS2 loco driving charasteristics programming as I used it for that for only a few days. I have done more loco programming with 6021 Control Unit and CS2. When you set the new value have you saved it or sent it to loco? Does your MS2 give any messages like loco settings have been saved succesfully or settings could not be sent to loco? Mfx loco CV settings can be modified under CV at least with CS2. It is good practise to be very careful when modifying them and good also to write down or remember the previous settings to go back to them if something go wrong. Or just factory reset the decoder as a last option.

I hope some members with a loco with mfx+ decoder and knowledge of the adjustments could answer to this topic as I'm interested in knowing if it is possible or not to program these newer decoders like the previous ones.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 03 August 2014 23:38:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
It is not good to put so low value in them like value 1 as there is some reason for having it much higher.
I don't think so.
If it runs fine with Vmin set to 1, why not?
The new economised motors vary a lot and maybe Märklin have to set a high value to play it safe. Some folks think they just copied the Vmin settings from the SDS (that sometimes needs higher values) also for the new models with non-SDS.

In my experience the Märklin default settings often leave room for improvements - you often can improve the settings if you dare.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#10 Posted : 04 August 2014 09:16:42(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
I do note that in my BR23 (39230) booklet (and a few other locos also), it says that changing the VMax may "upset the running characteristics" of the loco...? Havent ever tried changing it tho..
For attaining scale speeds i came across the following on the internet (cant remember where):

Time to travel 3 foot (almost a meter?) at Scale speed:
Prototype speed of 25mph (40km/h) should take 7 secs for HO gauge
For a proto speed of 60 mph (96km/h) should take 3 secs....
and for 90mph (145km/h) it must take 2 secs to cover the 3 foot distance...
Does this seem correct..??
Joe
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 04 August 2014 13:56:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
I do note that in my BR23 (39230) booklet (and a few other locos also), it says that changing the VMax may "upset the running characteristics" of the loco...?
They write that for all SDS models. They only write that increasing the value beyond the factory default won't do any good.
There is no warning against decreasing the value (to slow the loco down).

"The VMAX has been preset at 87 % (Mobile Station) and
at 222 (Central Station) on the model in order to give good
running characteristics. Raising this value further will not
increase the speed; it will only have a negative effect on
the running characteristics." (from the 39230 manual)
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 04 August 2014 14:01:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Time to travel 3 foot (almost a meter?) at Scale speed:
Prototype speed of 25mph (40km/h) should take 7 secs for HO gauge
For a proto speed of 60 mph (96km/h) should take 3 secs....
and for 90mph (145km/h) it must take 2 secs to cover the 3 foot distance...
Does this seem correct..??
Seems correct.

100 km/h are 27.7777... m/s at 1:1.
For 1:87 this is 0.3193 m/s or 3.132 seconds for one meter.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Janne75  
#13 Posted : 04 August 2014 21:57:22(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
It is not good to put so low value in them like value 1 as there is some reason for having it much higher.
I don't think so.
If it runs fine with Vmin set to 1, why not?
The new economised motors vary a lot and maybe Märklin have to set a high value to play it safe. Some folks think they just copied the Vmin settings from the SDS (that sometimes needs higher values) also for the new models with non-SDS.

In my experience the Märklin default settings often leave room for improvements - you often can improve the settings if you dare.


Yes, IF the loco runs fine with setting 1 then it can be used. But my experience with some of my locos shows it is not possible to set it to so low value. I agree the Märklin default settings many times leave room for improvements. By setting the Vmin setting to lower value can many times remove locos "sudden jump starts" as too high value causes this kind of non realistic looking starts for otherwise smooth and nice running locos.

Regards,
Janne

Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 05 August 2014 20:48:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I agree with Janne!
You never know what it happens with the mfx decoder... Wink
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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