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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#1 Posted : 07 July 2014 02:30:40(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
I am toying with the idea of upgrading my old sony HD camcorder which made me very happy over the many years I had it but there's been so many advances since that may be the time has come.

I would like to know whether the processing of the movies in programs like vegas and in good computers is still problematic and much slower than 1080. Also how many Gb would take to have 1hr of video on the camera card at a middle point compression level?

If anyone here had the knowledge I'll thank you in advance. Alex
Offline Nielsenr  
#2 Posted : 07 July 2014 04:23:20(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
I am not an expert on video cameras. However, I often play a game of "if I had a lot of money", what camera would I buy. I came across a Sony FDR-AX100b 4K camera for $2000 US. I am not sure I do enough video recording to warrant this purchase, however I just picked up the Sony 65X850B 4K TV today so I would have something compatible to watch the recorded 4K video on.

I found a review (http://www.smartreview.com/sony...0b-4k-ultra-hd-camcorder) for this camera and it states:

"Compression and Recording: The FDR-AX100/B uses the new highly efficient XAVC-S 4K compression format (60Mbps bit rate) to record 4K @ 30p, or (50Mbps bit rate) to record 1080p video at 60p. The codec is so efficient, that it can hold 1 hour of 4K video on a standard 32GB Class 10 SDHC/SDXC memory card. Most other 4K camcorders require exotic storage or multiple cards to record to. "

So 1 hour of 4K in 32GB ... not bad ... and on a Class 10 memory card. And I like other features of his camera also.

Sony has been the leader in development of the 4K technology. Do some research and I am sure you can find something that meets your budget and recording requirements.

Robert
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#3 Posted : 07 July 2014 05:52:35(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Well that is actually the camera I am considering, not that there is a huge selection for the non professional market. I've been looking at lots of info and videos on youtube. The fact that you may not have (well you do) a monitor with that resolution is not 100% that important. Most cameras made for the general public suffer enough shortcomings to produce a picture much worse than what the stated pixel resolution is capable. I bought my first HD ages ago and had only a regular old CRT tv. Even then I could see a huge difference in quality compared to my prior DV camera which supposedly would have had a similar resolution to the TV but the improvement was huge.

Currently I have been looking at 4K videos at the utube 1080p setting as this computer does not even have that resolution and yet those videos are light years sharper than my own HD videos and any other video I find filmed at 1080. This seems to be hand shot by a regular amateur or thereabouts (make sure to change settings to at least 1080 <YOUTUBE>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI9ZuSAkXvU </YOUTUBE> I seem to be doing something wrong with the link just copy and paste.

I'll be checking your review link later as I've been spending hours on this and duty calls. I'll be curious on your 4K tv purchase, what made you buy am I right and there is no talk yet about a new disk format to release movies in 4K, are there transmitions? I haven't seen any first hand yet but I am always a bit reticent to use the gimmicks often included to supposedly increase the definition of what's already a limited source of information.

Thank you,
Alex
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 07 July 2014 07:01:02(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
Sony FDR-AX100b 4K camera.


Makes my Sony Hi8 Camcorder look rather archaic by comparison! I do have a Canon EOS 60D DSLR though, which can record in HD.

Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
Sony FDR-AX100b 4K camera.


$2,995 NZD here!
Offline waorb  
#5 Posted : 07 July 2014 14:19:14(UTC)
waorb

Brazil   
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Brazil
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
$2,995 NZD here!


or, USD 2620 in NZ...

Here in Brazil costs the equivalent of USD 3500... No way... Scared

It's the same price of take a plane, fly to the US, buy the camera for USD 2000, and returns with it on hand...

I want to upgrade my 8mm handycam, but better wait for the end of the World Cup, or the end of the Olympics, or Sony drops the price a little... Blink

Cheers,

Walter
Offline Nielsenr  
#6 Posted : 07 July 2014 16:33:45(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post


I'll be checking your review link later as I've been spending hours on this and duty calls. I'll be curious on your 4K tv purchase, what made you buy am I right and there is no talk yet about a new disk format to release movies in 4K, are there transmitions? I haven't seen any first hand yet but I am always a bit reticent to use the gimmicks often included to supposedly increase the definition of what's already a limited source of information.



Alex,

After seeing a small band I like in Key West back in April and using a "point and shoot" camera to record 49 videos, I started looking at what it would cost to get a good video camera when I came upon this Sony 4K camera. There are a number of reviews if you Google it. I gave you this particular link because it talked about file size of the 4K video which you asked about.

As for my selection of the TV, I have a 9 year old 62" Mitsubishi DLP rear projection TV for my main viewing. Lately, I have been losing color and it has gotten progressively worse. I was looking to upgrade to a 70" and thought I had a Sharp TV picked out. I had eliminated the Sony line because it appeared the "feet" on the base would not fit on my TV stand. Then I found out the "feet" had a second mounting point that would fit. As I was doing research and visiting a Best Buy store in my area, I started talking to a Sony Tech Rep who was working the store during our Holiday weekend (Fourth of July). Since the Sharp TV was a 4K model, The Sony Tech Rep showed me Sony's version. I have always liked Sony TVs (I have one in my bedroom and in my family room) and I liked the demos he ran for me. The problem was the 70" version was $5500, $2500 more than the Sharp I was looking at. However, the 65" version was $4000 and they were giving $700 off bringing it to $3300, only $300 more than the Sharp and IMHO, the Sony picture looked much better than the Sharp. I haven't hooked it up yet since I need some help to remove the old Mitsubishi.

As for content, there are some 4K Blue Ray DVDs out there. I also bought a Sony 4K 3D Blue Ray player. The store I bought it at had a handful of 4K DVDs but none were of my liking. I will check out Amazon where they are reported to have about 100 movies in 4K available. I have also been told that Netflix has 4K content available. I believe the TV and the DVD player can do some "up-scaling" of regular content to 4K. Now I will need to upgrade my surround sound A/V Yamaha 2010 Aventage receiver to the newest Yamaha 2040 Aventage so I can get 2.0 HDMI and 4K compatibility. But that purchase will have to wait.

BTW, with more movies being shot digitally, more digital movies are shot with Sony cameras, processed on Sony equipment and shown in movie theaters with Sony projectors. As I understand it, 4K is very comparable to 35mm film. IMHO, Sony is the leader in 4K technology.

Robert
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Offline GlennM  
#7 Posted : 07 July 2014 18:54:14(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,875
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Just my own personal view, I feel Sony's 4K may be the modern Betamax, or at best something that people may grown into over time as current equipment goes obsolete/broken, but by then there will be something new and sadly another great idea will be consigned to the bin.

Slightly off topic, I am a huge fan of MiniDisc, and I think at last count had have 8 players/recorders, for me the more 'natural' (via the Sony DAC) sound far eclipses CD, and discs are good for 100,000 listens, so let me know anyone who even gets close to that. I have a lot of my old vinyl (Floyd's - Wish you were here) recorded onto mini disc and the sound is epic, such a shame Sony has again chosen to no longer support the system.

For me this is the problem with Sony, great ideas, but then once relegated to the niche market they dump the product into history.

To get back on topic, as for 4K cameras, I would ask yourself firstly four questions;

1) What are you intending to shoot, as this may affect your camera choice, such as macro function.
2) What are you going to do with your videos? (a lot of YouTube users still watch videos in low resolution).
3) What are you going to watch your videos on? No point in having a 4K camera if you are watching your video on a Sony Vaio with i5 processor and a 12 inch screen.
4) Cost and how much can you spend.

These should help you to define the camera you need, unless you like having all the latest gadgets. Please remember that HD can be unforgiving as it is so detailed, and so needs to have great lens, and to be honest good light, then the computers need to be bigger and faster and likewise the screens you use to edit the files, and the back up drives you save to need to be bigger.

Your post also asked about file size in GB using compression software. For me personally there is nothing to be gained form having a nice high end HD (4K) camera and then compressing your video, the object of the high end camera is to have high end video.

As a guide I have the Panasonic X920 - specification and details here

Which is a compromise camera using 3CCD to capture image, it is quite good on focus, and I really like the macro focus which I think is good for capturing trains, and low light is also quite good, although sometimes it fails to find a focus point if the subject is moving and colours can be washed out.

It uses AVCHD as data file for image capture, which although is an open format for digital capture, is not currently supported by all video editing software (I am sure this will change as HD cameras are more widely used), although if you want simple capture, burn watch or capture upload and post, the software that comes with the camera is great, and is what I use to post train videos to this forum.

Getting video off the camera I generally use a Sony Vaio with Intel i5, but this is not powerful enough to watch true HD on screen and it jerks, so ideally I need a more powerful computer. Also none of the Windows based software I have will edit AVCHD, so use my MAC (quad core mac pro) for this, and the first problem was the size and speed of the XD card was not recognized by the Apple OS and so I had to upgrade the OS to read the card. If I want to manipulate the video files I use Final Cut Pro but it is processor and memory intensive and if I was doing it regularly and maybe as a part time business would need a more powerful computer to do it efficiently.

Please bare in mind that my camera uses AVCHD video data file structure, and my files out of the camera a 2 minute video at full 1920x1080p HD is 184mb. Or in real terms about 1.55mb per second.

I have no working knowledge of 4K and what file structure is uses to save the video files, but conservatively I understand it is twice the detail and so files could be twice the size.

So I guess my experience is if you get a new technology you may need to upgrade all your other tech to cope with it, or you will be disappointed.

I would also note that there are anew range of cameras which do not use CCD as the image capture technology and although they still produce a 1080p video, the image captured is cleared and brighter resulting in an overall better HD vdieo image and maybe one of these cameras could be an viable alternative to 4K?

Finally, I would note that even with the X920 and 1080p HD, there are limitations, when it rains or the image is shot in poor light, or if the subject moves too fast, the resultant video is often no better than one shot on VHS!!!!!

Good luck choosing and if you do chose a 4K camera, that you will share your experience and some videos for us to enjoy.

Best Regards

Glenn
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline GlennM  
#8 Posted : 08 July 2014 13:14:09(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,875
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
By the way if you are looking for an alternative to CCD based cameras, the new Blackmagic Cinema Camera is getting great reviews, for further information; click here

Best Regards

Glenn

PS: The link does not seem to be working so here is the link: www.blackmagicdesign.com/uk/cinemacamera
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#9 Posted : 12 July 2014 07:05:03(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
I gave you this particular link because it talked about file size of the 4K video which you asked about.



hi sorry I haven't been around. First I still haven't been around to read the review because I am making my ownLOL Flapper Love

I couldn't help myself after posting the question started making phone calls and within an hour I was the happy owner of the Sony 4KDrool Drool Drool .

You are lucky in the US there are some titles available for downloads but because the way Hollywood likes making money with their rights probably all legal, paid downloads will be blocked for Australians. Eventually when they allow any local company to sell downloads they most likely do the same they always have and plenty of titles will never be available here and unlike DVD's or blue rays the downloads are likely to be much more restrictive.

Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#10 Posted : 12 July 2014 07:33:31(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Just my own personal view, I feel Sony's 4K may be the modern Betamax, or at best something that people may grown into over time as current equipment goes obsolete/broken, but by then there will be something new and sadly another great idea will be consigned to the bin.

Slightly off topic, I am a huge fan of MiniDisc, and I think at last count had have 8 players/recorders, for me the more 'natural' (via the Sony DAC) sound far eclipses CD, and discs are good for 100,000 listens, so let me know anyone who even gets close to that. I have a lot of my old vinyl (Floyd's - Wish you were here) recorded onto mini disc and the sound is epic, such a shame Sony has again chosen to no longer support the system.

For me this is the problem with Sony, great ideas, but then once relegated to the niche market they dump the product into history.

To get back on topic, as for 4K cameras, I would ask yourself firstly four questions;

1) What are you intending to shoot, as this may affect your camera choice, such as macro function.
2) What are you going to do with your videos? (a lot of YouTube users still watch videos in low resolution).
3) What are you going to watch your videos on? No point in having a 4K camera if you are watching your video on a Sony Vaio with i5 processor and a 12 inch screen.
4) Cost and how much can you spend.

These should help you to define the camera you need, unless you like having all the latest gadgets. Please remember that HD can be unforgiving as it is so detailed, and so needs to have great lens, and to be honest good light, then the computers need to be bigger and faster and likewise the screens you use to edit the files, and the back up drives you save to need to be bigger.

Your post also asked about file size in GB using compression software. For me personally there is nothing to be gained form having a nice high end HD (4K) camera and then compressing your video, the object of the high end camera is to have high end video.

As a guide I have the Panasonic X920 - specification and details here

Which is a compromise camera using 3CCD to capture image, it is quite good on focus, and I really like the macro focus which I think is good for capturing trains, and low light is also quite good, although sometimes it fails to find a focus point if the subject is moving and colours can be washed out.

It uses AVCHD as data file for image capture, which although is an open format for digital capture, is not currently supported by all video editing software (I am sure this will change as HD cameras are more widely used), although if you want simple capture, burn watch or capture upload and post, the software that comes with the camera is great, and is what I use to post train videos to this forum.

Getting video off the camera I generally use a Sony Vaio with Intel i5, but this is not powerful enough to watch true HD on screen and it jerks, so ideally I need a more powerful computer. Also none of the Windows based software I have will edit AVCHD, so use my MAC (quad core mac pro) for this, and the first problem was the size and speed of the XD card was not recognized by the Apple OS and so I had to upgrade the OS to read the card. If I want to manipulate the video files I use Final Cut Pro but it is processor and memory intensive and if I was doing it regularly and maybe as a part time business would need a more powerful computer to do it efficiently.

Please bare in mind that my camera uses AVCHD video data file structure, and my files out of the camera a 2 minute video at full 1920x1080p HD is 184mb. Or in real terms about 1.55mb per second.

I have no working knowledge of 4K and what file structure is uses to save the video files, but conservatively I understand it is twice the detail and so files could be twice the size.

So I guess my experience is if you get a new technology you may need to upgrade all your other tech to cope with it, or you will be disappointed.

I would also note that there are anew range of cameras which do not use CCD as the image capture technology and although they still produce a 1080p video, the image captured is cleared and brighter resulting in an overall better HD vdieo image and maybe one of these cameras could be an viable alternative to 4K?

Finally, I would note that even with the X920 and 1080p HD, there are limitations, when it rains or the image is shot in poor light, or if the subject moves too fast, the resultant video is often no better than one shot on VHS!!!!!

Good luck choosing and if you do chose a 4K camera, that you will share your experience and some videos for us to enjoy.

Best Regards

Glenn


Hello Glenn,
I am only here for a few minutes so I will only be able to reply to part of your message, as you probably read above I already have it, I also had a full HD sony camera from the early days that served me well and allow me to have today fairly old videos with HD quality when most people were still using SD.

There are several brands working on the 4K system I could be wrong but I am sure is here to stay and there is already 8K coming so there is no scape. The two systems already exist for quite a long time but only now 4K starts being accessible to the general public although the price tag can still be painful. It is estimated that by 2017 4K will be broadcasted on TV, 8K might happen by 2032.

Yes files are bigger, requirements are bigger but it is no all grim. I can tell you I am playing quite successfully 4K on a computer I built in 2008 -dinosaur?- the only thing I had to change to make it work without stuttering was putting a new mid- highquality video card $300 and a new video software player that takes advantage of the GPU acceleration otherwise the load is too high on the old Intel dual core processor. I am sure if you use a good i7 with a cheaper video card that has 4k definition you'll be fine.

There is HD and there is also "HD" Is sort of like comparing a 20 megapixels I-phone camera versus a 10 megapixels Nikon SLR, which one will give you the better pictureLOL

Having the pixels does not guarantee you are actually getting the quality. This camera used in the 1080P setting still blows completely out of the water to most HD cameras you can buy on the market. I don't have a 4K monitor only HD, when you shoot on 4K and play it on the HD monitor you DO see a noticeable improvement over the HD shots there is no doubt about it. Not everything is perfect but is as good as it gets for a consumer product particularly at this stage. That also reminds me my old HD camera was expensive when new, only the mid to expensive ones these days are better, the cheap ones still don't provide better results even after all these years.

This model has a very large 1" sensor and that's a plus, I haven't tested much at night but the test in the garden were very promising and I did find in youtube a video that's excellent I'll include the link in a few minutes. You should also try copying and pasting the link I put in my first post make sure to change youtube settings to at least 1080P and you'll see how much sharper this is compared to a video shot by an HD camera.




thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Iamnotthecrazyone
Offline GlennM  
#11 Posted : 15 July 2014 19:59:23(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,875
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
The clips look great ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp there is a lot of vibrancy to the images

Interesting first thoughts, looking forward to hearing more and seeing some great videos, and maybe even a MRR related video.

All the best

Glenn
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by GlennM
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 03 October 2014 10:32:08(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: muneeb302 Go to Quoted Post
I am toying with the idea of upgrading my old sony HD camcorder which made me very happy over the many years I had it but there's been so many advances since that may be the time has come.

I would like to know whether the processing of the mov


Muneeb,

Can you explain why you are cutting and pasting parts of other people's posts and reposting them? I have now followed you around three seperate topics and frankly, it's just wasting my time!

If you have something to say just say it.

muneeb302 was a nasty bot, which has been banned and posts deleted. Well spotted Ray!.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Martin T  
#13 Posted : 06 October 2014 13:22:17(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

I´m very much into video and a geek I must admit.
I was to Japan in business and at the same time took the oppourtunity to look at a range of 4K camcorders.

MY ADVISE:
There are many reasons to stay with HD1080i (or P) for now. The best consumer HD camcorder takes your film project much further than the best consumer 4K camcorder, unless your budget for software, computer, TV-display and camcorder is VEEEERY large. Working with video the camera is one thing, the lens is the main thing. The numbers of $$$ you need to pay for one wide angle or fish eye to make your films is more than the amount you pay for the HD camera. I cannot even imagine the price for a real full 4k low distorsion lens.... (or actually I can.. :P)

Also.. Most video is nowadays produced for internet based social media, where as production speed is more important than number of pixels... It easier to get the vibrant look on short production time starting with HD, than with 4k

Cool
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Martin T
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#14 Posted : 14 October 2014 13:59:14(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

I´m very much into video and a geek I must admit.
I was to Japan in business and at the same time took the oppourtunity to look at a range of 4K camcorders.

MY ADVISE:
There are many reasons to stay with HD1080i (or P) for now. The best consumer HD camcorder takes your film project much further than the best consumer 4K camcorder, unless your budget for software, computer, TV-display and camcorder is VEEEERY large. Working with video the camera is one thing, the lens is the main thing. The numbers of $$$ you need to pay for one wide angle or fish eye to make your films is more than the amount you pay for the HD camera. I cannot even imagine the price for a real full 4k low distorsion lens.... (or actually I can.. :P)

Also.. Most video is nowadays produced for internet based social media, where as production speed is more important than number of pixels... It easier to get the vibrant look on short production time starting with HD, than with 4k

Cool


Sorry but I completely disagree. If I would have followed that kind of advise when I bought my first HD camera many, many years ago I would be watching videos from those years with the much more inferior quality provided by the consumer DV cameras available then.

It's now been a few months since I've got the 4K and I am delighted I've spent the money, it was worth it. I don't even have a 4K display but the improvement is so great that not only improves on my old -dedicated- HD camera, which is not bad even for todays standards because there is a lot of HD rubbish out there. It also squashes the video of any HD footage I have seen so far. Also, this particular SONY not only has great lenses but also has a large sensor which is superior in every respect to what you get on any consumer HD camera and the list of improvements goes on and on. The colours are sensational and clean, it makes everything else look dirty! I would not use it for internet uploading as connection speeds and amount of data are a concern for anything that last more than couple of minutes in 4K.
Offline Martin T  
#15 Posted : 16 October 2014 11:46:27(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

I´m very much into video and a geek I must admit.
I was to Japan in business and at the same time took the oppourtunity to look at a range of 4K camcorders.

MY ADVISE:
There are many reasons to stay with HD1080i (or P) for now. The best consumer HD camcorder takes your film project much further than the best consumer 4K camcorder, unless your budget for software, computer, TV-display and camcorder is VEEEERY large. Working with video the camera is one thing, the lens is the main thing. The numbers of $$$ you need to pay for one wide angle or fish eye to make your films is more than the amount you pay for the HD camera. I cannot even imagine the price for a real full 4k low distorsion lens.... (or actually I can.. :P)

Also.. Most video is nowadays produced for internet based social media, where as production speed is more important than number of pixels... It easier to get the vibrant look on short production time starting with HD, than with 4k

Cool


Sorry but I completely disagree. If I would have followed that kind of advise when I bought my first HD camera many, many years ago I would be watching videos from those years with the much more inferior quality provided by the consumer DV cameras available then.

It's now been a few months since I've got the 4K and I am delighted I've spent the money, it was worth it. I don't even have a 4K display but the improvement is so great that not only improves on my old -dedicated- HD camera, which is not bad even for todays standards because there is a lot of HD rubbish out there. It also squashes the video of any HD footage I have seen so far. Also, this particular SONY not only has great lenses but also has a large sensor which is superior in every respect to what you get on any consumer HD camera and the list of improvements goes on and on. The colours are sensational and clean, it makes everything else look dirty! I would not use it for internet uploading as connection speeds and amount of data are a concern for anything that last more than couple of minutes in 4K.



There is no doubt the result with a €1800 4k camera is better than a HD camera at €750..
Editing 4K still needs a lot more computing power than HD, so I personally would need to buy a new computer. Looking at the systems MINIMUM requirements it would cost about €1250.
My version of the editing software, Avid Media Composer, does not handle 4k, so there goes another €1200.
Sum: €4250 (Then I'm still missing both the fish-eye lens and the macro lens for 4K resolution..)

I always think in budget, so therefore my recommendation to stay with HD for now.

Edited by user 16 October 2014 16:33:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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