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Offline grahame  
#1 Posted : 26 June 2014 02:12:19(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
After careful cleaning, lubrication and rebuilding the gears on my DB89, which I have had for 5 months..brand new...it went round the track twice..stopped..got VERY hot then literally started smoking...never to move again.

I have written quite a few threads about this but I have to say I am quite disgusted. I maintained it exactly as specified..careful to never over oil..got replacement brushes. Within a month of very light use it started to run hot..and I could never solve this, what turned out to be a terminal, condition. I will never own another Marklin product after this..so much for German engineering. I have literally spent hours on this and agonised over it many times. A very hard lesson learned. This should, without a doubt, be covered by the manufacturer's warranty which I doubt I will ever be able to use.

If anyone wants it for spare parts, make me a reasonable offer and it's yours. All parts are in perfect condition except, of course, the armature which is most likely toast! It smells very burnt.Cursing Cursing Cursing
Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 26 June 2014 06:53:11(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Did you oiled motor correct by following the manual?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline DasBert33  
#3 Posted : 26 June 2014 07:38:38(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Hi,

I also think you did overoil or used the wrong type of oil.

It happened to me with a BR03 once, which started running slow after a few laps, got to a stop and then smoked a little. I got it to run again by replacing the brushes again and giving the collector a good clean. Can you put a picture here to see exactly what loco, type of motor and electronics (if any) you are talking about? Also post a picture of the oil used and the damaged parts, if any.

The thing I like about Marklin is exactly the easy maintenance. I'm sure you will be able to repair it.

Bert

PS: I had a similar issue with a liliput railcar which came overoiled from factory. This one turned out to be irrepairable as the motor and brushes were not intended to be servicable.
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Offline river6109  
#4 Posted : 26 June 2014 07:46:31(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Grahame,
sorry to hear your bad experience with Märklin, to offer you some condolences my experiences with Märklin goes back 60 years, what you've done is most probably the standard way of maintaining a loco in good shape by cleaning it and oiling it but if a loco doesn't run right and the armature gets hot, oiling and cleaning is not always the answer or solution and unless you are familiar with how a loco works and what steps to take to find the culprit or what's wrong with the loco unfortunately you haven't been able to resolve it. whether or not you should be able to repair locos is another matter especially if you bought it new and by buying it new and if doesn't run properly right from the beginning the best tactic is send it back to the manufacturer in this case Märklin.
I don't want to go over again what has been done or hasn't been done to get the loco going again and as you said you've written enough about it, the fact is and most probably the armature was the cause in the first place, as I said I don't know what you've done in meantime but the problem hasn't been solved.
I have cleaned, repaired locos for a long time now and sitting from where I am your experience is or sounds to me like an inexperience how to repair a loco, which is not unusual nor should it be taken as a derogative comment.

I haven't followed your topic right to the end as I found necessary elements to establish whether the wiring or the armature is at fault wasn't available to view.
I've just re-visited your topic and you found the wheels could be the problem, any loco assembled correctly before use, the wheels should turn freely before attempting to run the loco and if the wheels are ceased for some reason and you apply power to the motor no wonder the armature will burn out.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 26 June 2014 07:57:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Graham,

I'm sorry to hear about your bad luck with the loco.

Originally Posted by: grahame Go to Quoted Post
so much for German engineering
I'm not sure whether this is German engineering. Most likely it's far east production.

The M* headquarter is in Swabia. In Germany there is a joke: if you need a long, thin copper wire, toss a copper coin between two Swabians.

My expertise is with H0 models. They economised their production in many ways.

Months ago I read an article about the history of the Z gauge motors. They switched to five-pole skewed armatures when production was moved to far east - theoretically skewed armatures are better than the straight-wound five-pole armatures from the days of Made in Eastern Germany - but practically they were not better due to poor manufacturing.

Warranty repairs by Märklin are normally no problem. It takes weeks or months and you may have to return the item twice or thrice, but sooner or later they will likely get it right (I've heard of people who wrote to the CEO after three fails - and they got it right the fourth time).
They economised everything these days.

It's probably not worth the postage to send the loco to Germany from overseas to have the armature replaced.
Maybe you will order a new armature as a spare part one day and there will be a happy ending?!?!?!?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 26 June 2014 08:33:34(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Grahame,

It's probably not fair to write off a manufacturer over one faulty item. I have more than 120 Marklin locos and have never experienced what you describe, and if you read this forum regularly you will find very few examples of faults like this bearing in mind some have collections running to hundreds of locomotives.

I echo the advice given by others. If you have a brand new item which starts giving problems straight away it's best to return it to the dealer or straight to the manufacturer for professional repairs or replacement. This is especially true if you have tried basic maintenance like changing brushes and light lubrication and the loco still does not run correctly.

Rather than dump it for spares I would, even at this stage, return it to Marklin for repairs. If it is only 5 months old it should still be covered by the manufacturer warranty.

Whatever you do, please don't lose interest in the hobby because of frustration over one faulty locomotive. Try buying another, different locomotive, and see if you can restore your interest by diverting your attention from this issue.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline grahame  
#7 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:12:28(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Did you oiled motor correct by following the manual?


Without a doubt, yes!

Offline grahame  
#8 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:15:07(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: DasBert33 Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I also think you did overoil or used the wrong type of oil.

PS: I had a similar issue with a liliput railcar which came overoiled from factory. This one turned out to be irrepairable as the motor and brushes were not intended to be servicable.


I was exceptionally careful to NOT over oil this tiny thing. I am using correct very light model train oil. Designed for N scale and below.

Offline grahame  
#9 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:17:24(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
.... you found the wheels could be the problem, any loco assembled correctly before use, the wheels should turn freely before attempting to run the loco and if the wheels are ceased for some reason and you apply power to the motor no wonder the armature will burn out.

John


I took great pains to install the gears correctly, make sure all contact plates were behind the wheels and before each test run the armature was gently rotated by hand to ensure the wheels rotated and were not ceased...yesterday before the fateful final run, it ran round the track twice then stopped..if the wheels were jammed or ceased that would not have happened.
Offline biedmatt  
#10 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:23:33(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I am guessing one of the windings in the armature shorted and is causing it to draw much more power then normal. Is it a DCM motor? If the rest of it is okay, that would be easy to fix. I probably have an armature I could send you.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline grahame  
#11 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:24:13(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
This loco STARTED to get too hot quite some time ago..and for this reason I took the wheels out in the first place and started trying to clean everything. After the first strip down, it ran very well for a while but still was getting too hot.....I have rebuilt the gears many times now...I really don't think it was this. if you don't get the gears meshed correctly the bottom plate will not go on because the axles are not seated correctly into the pockets of the chassis. If the gears were ceased up the armature would not rotate freely and I always made this check before applying power. I am convinced it had a faulty armature.
Offline grahame  
#12 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:35:58(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
I am guessing one of the windings in the armature shorted and is causing it to draw much more power then normal. Is it a DCM motor? If the rest of it is okay, that would be easy to fix. I probably have an armature I could send you.


I agree with you...thank you very much..I have looked at how to replace armature and don't really feel I have the tools to do this..a special puller etc...I think Marklin should do this!!!

Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 26 June 2014 14:01:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Is it a DCM motor? [...] I probably have an armature I could send you.
You're doing Z scale?
Märklin Z scale motors have always been DCM, some three-pole, some five-pole. Locos with bell-shaped armature are rare (others than BR 89).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline grahame  
#14 Posted : 26 June 2014 14:09:00(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
This set was purchased as "new" from Germany back in December...Just got this from the ebay seller in Germany:

I´m sorry to hear about all the trouble. Please send the loco back to me and I´ll care for a repair at marklin.

I´ll try to get this under warranty, but I don´t know, whether Marklin will notice, that item was already unbuilt and rebuilt....

PS _ Just in case anyone wonders, I am from the UK and am certainly aware of the voltage difference. I am using the correct transformer for the power supply..the power supply puts out DC and is working just fine. This is not the issue here. I check the track repeatedly with a DC volt meter and know what's being applied to the loco.
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Offline grahame  
#15 Posted : 26 June 2014 14:24:52(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
I am quite sure that when it started overheating, the insulation in the windings started to melt and it was a viscous circle..the hotter it got, the more it melted and then it finally shorted out. Hot = too much current. this started BEFORE I ever took the wheels out for the first time. There were times when it would run very nicely, smooth, fast BUT after 20 mins it was was so hot..you could not touch it...then it started to get really hot after only a few minutes...
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Offline biedmatt  
#16 Posted : 26 June 2014 14:24:56(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Is it a DCM motor? [...] I probably have an armature I could send you.
You're doing Z scale?
Märklin Z scale motors have always been DCM, some three-pole, some five-pole. Locos with bell-shaped armature are rare (others than BR 89).



Just noticed it is small scale.

Send it back.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline grahame  
#17 Posted : 26 June 2014 18:14:25(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Quote:
Just noticed it is small scale.

Send it back.


I plan to, thanks to great assistance from the eBay seller, who is the person that purchased it from Marklin and is the only person who can use the Marklin warranty as I understand it...I do not think it would be transferable through an eBay purchase.


Just to clarify this is or rather WAS a Z scale Marklin 5 pole DB89 0-6-0 Black tank engine....from an 81569 Starter Set. I used the correct oil, I used the correct 5 pole brushes and I rebuilt the gears exactly the same as the first time I took the wheels out. That first time, it ran fast and smooth for a while then started to get hot again.
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Offline Webmaster  
#18 Posted : 26 June 2014 22:25:27(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Seems like a motor winding issue to me too....

No sand/grit/dust issues messing up the gears on the layout?
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline steventrain  
#19 Posted : 26 June 2014 22:57:56(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
I hear some customers is not happy about on 0-6-0 locos with motors going fast to slow to stop, The model date between 2010 and today?

Marklin should be double test and check 0-6-0 steam tank/diesel shunter loco before left factory.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#20 Posted : 27 June 2014 00:09:32(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: grahame Go to Quoted Post
I will never own another Marklin product after this..so much for German engineering. Cursing Cursing Cursing


I've been exposed to Marklin for well over 45 years, in that time I have seen some very bad things but many more good ones. Since I am a train nut -not just Marklin- I have also had plenty of experience with many other brands too. By far I have much worse to say about the other brands.

I am sorry your experience with that engine wasn't good but as I have mentioned in another of your threads Z gauge is way too small and for that reason alone is very prone to all sort of running problems. Servicing them is another problem.

In my experience N gauge is the smallest size I could be happy running, there is a lot of rubbish out there but there are also some very good quality trains that will provide reasonable running characteristics.
Still, for me I would not run anything smaller than HO.

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Offline Janne75  
#21 Posted : 27 June 2014 08:46:18(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi,

I hope you will get it fixed. For my eyes and hands + our houses space the correct scale is H0. I like also 1 scale, but we have only enough space for it on our livingroom floor. I tried some years ago N scale, but even with these I had alot of running problems. So I decided to sell these then and continued with H0. Z scale is so small and fine mechanics it would be totally impossible for me. I like to watch these things and it is possible to build a large layout in small space, but my choice is H0 and 1.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline grahame  
#22 Posted : 27 June 2014 13:22:26(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Seems like a motor winding issue to me too....

No sand/grit/dust issues messing up the gears on the layout?



I agree!!

Just for the record, I cleaned all my wheels in a suitable solvent in an ultrasonic bath and dried carefully. Does anyone see anything wrong here, I do not:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


The reassembly was extremely careful and all the axles were fully inserted into the chassis pockets. If this is not done the plate will not go on from my experience. The armature turned freely before power was applied.
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#23 Posted : 27 June 2014 14:18:34(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: grahame Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Seems like a motor winding issue to me too....

No sand/grit/dust issues messing up the gears on the layout?



I agree!!
Does anyone see anything wrong here, I do not:



UserPostedImage







Actually, I do see something very wrong! I don't think that circular wear on the side of the gear looks right, it has the look that has been grinding badly against something which is the likely cause of the initial problem. That now doesn't take away the fact that according to what you have said that by now the rotor has had it too.
Offline grahame  
#24 Posted : 27 June 2014 16:27:24(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Quote:


Actually, I do see something very wrong! I don't think that circular wear on the side of the gear looks right, it has the look that has been grinding badly against something which is the likely cause of the initial problem. That now doesn't take away the fact that according to what you have said that by now the rotor has had it too.


OK ..what do you think caused that? I see it too. I think it was either like that from new or it has been rubbing on part of the chassis due to a manufacturing fault. The whole gear train has been kept scrupulously clean..and has been cleaned more times in 5 months than most would do in 5 years.

Offline mike c  
#25 Posted : 27 June 2014 21:33:37(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
You state that the model was described as "new". You bought it on ebay. Did you buy it from an ebay seller who is an official dealer? If so, then you can either return it to them or to Goeppingen directly, with a copy of the sales slip that most official ebay sellers will also provide. If you bought it from a reseller who is not an official dealer, they may be able to have it repaired for you by sending it to Maerklin as their item (as long as they have an original invoice). In that case, if you sent it to Maerklin, they probably would not honour a warranty and would bill you for the repairs.
If you can send the loco back as a letter rather than as a parcel, it should be cheaper that way. Find out what the size requirements are for letter mail and what insurance you can obtain.
In a warranty situation, it is always best to consider a warranty return before undertaking any major work on your own.

Regards

Mike C
Offline grahame  
#26 Posted : 27 June 2014 22:12:44(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
You state that the model was described as "new". You bought it on ebay. Did you buy it from an ebay seller who is an official dealer? If so, then you can either return it to them or to Goeppingen directly, with a copy of the sales slip that most official ebay sellers will also provide. If you bought it from a reseller who is not an official dealer, they may be able to have it repaired for you by sending it to Maerklin as their item (as long as they have an original invoice). In that case, if you sent it to Maerklin, they probably would not honour a warranty and would bill you for the repairs.
If you can send the loco back as a letter rather than as a parcel, it should be cheaper that way. Find out what the size requirements are for letter mail and what insurance you can obtain.
In a warranty situation, it is always best to consider a warranty return before undertaking any major work on your own.

Regards

Mike C



Thanks Mike,yes that is the plan..I wrote this in an earlier posting up there somewhere....seller has offered to try and get a repair for me...going back to Germany tomorrow....cheapest way..small box inside padded bag....

"I plan to, thanks to great assistance from the eBay seller, who is the person that purchased it from Marklin and is the only person who can use the Marklin warranty as I understand it...I do not think it would be transferable through an eBay purchase."
Offline grahame  
#27 Posted : 27 June 2014 23:02:43(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Quote:



Thanks Mike,yes that is the plan..I wrote this in an earlier posting up there somewhere....seller has offered to try and get a repair for me...going back to Germany tomorrow....cheapest way..small box inside padded bag....

"I plan to, thanks to great assistance from the eBay seller, who is the person that purchased it from Marklin and is the only person who can use the Marklin warranty as I understand it...I do not think it would be transferable through an eBay purchase."


I purchased it from here:

http://www.yelp.com/biz/spielki...erbert-brenner-ettlingen

So I am hopeful..it is a model shop in Germany, a Marklin dealer hopefully....

Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#28 Posted : 28 June 2014 02:10:12(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: grahame Go to Quoted Post
Quote:


Actually, I do see something very wrong! I don't think that circular wear on the side of the gear looks right, it has the look that has been grinding badly against something which is the likely cause of the initial problem. That now doesn't take away the fact that according to what you have said that by now the rotor has had it too.


OK ..what do you think caused that? I see it too. I think it was either like that from new or it has been rubbing on part of the chassis due to a manufacturing fault. The whole gear train has been kept scrupulously clean..and has been cleaned more times in 5 months than most would do in 5 years.




Without having the whole loco in my hands I can't tell, I suspect the gear may not be quite in the right position, I have just also noticed that in your 3rd photo the wheel itself looks like it's been binding against something. All that fits perfectly with the problems you were describing at the time the loco was still working but obviously something was slowing it down. You bought on ebay, I see so many claims there that make me laugh.

I don't remember how the whole problem started but there is always a chance you may have induced the problem yourself when disassembling it or reassembling it.
The scratch on the side of the gear is something that would have never scaped my eyes and I am definitely not an expert. Just by seeing that I would have stoped running it until I found the reason for the scratches. Because ,I know that kind of problem when not fixed often leads to burning the motor, which is what happened now.

I stick to my previous advice, I would buy another and write off that one, it isn't worth all the trouble, financially by the time you finish with this repair it might end up costing you more than what another working loco replacement would have cost you.
Offline river6109  
#29 Posted : 28 June 2014 03:48:44(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
my sentiments for the above comment, I don't like to sound unfair but seeing flaws like this I wouldn't have put the loco back on the track or even started it up and the lack of experience may has contributed to a.) an already existing fault. b.) an increasing existing fault, c.) a failure of the armature. I assume this Z gauge loco has a worm gear so any pre testing would be impossible by moving the wheels but the best thing in hind side is if you apply power to the loco and it doesn't move to remove it from the track and signs of wear as per picture should have rang alarm bells this is where the fault lies and as I said before cleaning and oiling is not always the main issue. you may got a factory lemon and you may have contributed to the fact not having experiences in this field by dismantling the loco and trying to find the fault and in your own statement claiming you can't see anything wrong with it, anyhow it has all come to the surface, the loco is going back but I also wonder whether it is worth all the postage and maybe other costs instead of buying another new one.
this brings us back to members who like to go shopping in an actual shop and trying the loco out before purchasing it, on the other hand I've bought 100's of locos without running them in front of my eyes, all had been shipped by persons or dealers I've never met in my life and I must admit its not the first time with me that I've wrongly assumed where a fault lies regarding lack of contact from a loco, I assumed the wheels weren't oiled enough or had efficient contact, I thought the slider wasn't level enough until I've realized it was the slider but not the shoe itself but rather the tension arms ends which had lost its contact (oxidization) over many years and a sandpaper swipe fixed this to bring the surface back to life.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline grahame  
#30 Posted : 28 June 2014 05:38:29(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
This loco goes back to German train model shop (eBay seller) tomorrow for hopeful warranty repair.

I would like to emphasize two points.

1. Over heating started BEFORE I ever took the wheels out. I took them out to try and resolve the problem.

2. I reinstalled them with great care, every bit as much as is shown in this video for the 0-6-0 diesel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...N2g&feature=youtu.be

If they don't go back correctly you cannot install the cover plate because the axles are not fully inserted into the pockets. Wheels and gears were checked for free rotation of the armature to be sure they were moving when all back together BEFORE power was applied...at no point was the armature stiff or hard to turn indicating ceased, jammed or incorrectly installed gears...I had originally thought the motor was OK because it ran well with no load. I think now that it failed when put under load.
Offline river6109  
#31 Posted : 28 June 2014 12:25:48(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Grahame, I'm sure you took care but the fact remains the loco didn't run properly and unfortunately you couldn't find the fault until you've released some photos which indicate some flaws with one axle particular but by this time the game was over.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline grahame  
#32 Posted : 28 June 2014 13:39:26(UTC)
grahame

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Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
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Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
but the fact remains the loco didn't run properly and unfortunately you couldn't find the fault until you've released some photos which indicate some flaws with one axle particular but by this time the game was over.



Very true...but the fault of overheating appeared long before I first took the gears out...so in my mind it was there from the beginning....so a warranty repair is a reasonable request.....In hind sight I should have returned it when it started to get hot but it came from a long way off. If I had purchased it from a local retailer or on line in the United States it certainly would have gone back.

I do feel, in my defense, that there is ample evidence in replies to my previous posts that there is a known problem with these armatures..one writer indicated he had 3 new motors from Marklin, all of which got hot right from new.

On balance I am inclined to the second option. The circular wear pattern is very certainly there but this was not caused by incorrect installation in my opinion. It was caused by rubbing on the side of the chassis or something.

ps - One test that the gears are installed correctly is play in the wheels. There should be some and there always was when I rebuilt mine. If you rock the middle gear the end one should move. The middle and front wheels should float up and down a bit. The rear wheels have less play because they are locked into the worm gear. If you rotate the armature by hand the rear wheels should move indicating correct engagement. All these tests were applied and passed every time before power was applied.

Marklin Hot Running thread
Offline biedmatt  
#33 Posted : 28 June 2014 14:15:40(UTC)
biedmatt

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Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Lots of input, I have some general questions.

Do we know the marks on the side of the gear were caused by binding or was it manufactured this way? I can't imagine the little low torque motor in a Z loko has enough power to spin this gear with the amount of drag needed to carve a groove into the side of the gear. Is the gear hardened? Is the loko frame hardened? What surface is the softest between these two contact points? Wouldn't the softest surface suffer the most damage? How does the frame look? I think it came that way from Marklin.

Does the groove on the side of the gear even affect its running qualities? A deep groove may have no affect if there is still enough surface above and around the groove to properly support the gear/axle inside the frame. P38s from the end of WW2 had finished surfaces that looked like they were cut with a bandsaw, yet they functioned just fine. A simple case of not pretty, but good enough. Get over it people, Marklin doesn't sweat the details like they used too. If it is of sufficient quality to perform as needed, they will use the part.
Edit: These gears are no longer made one by one by a machinist who both takes pride in his work and can immediately identify when something is wrong. They are made by CNC and hundreds, perhaps thousands, are made before anyone even looks at them.

How is the axle located in the frame? What limits sideways movement of the axle? Is it limited by the gear riding on the side of the gear opening in the frame? Wouldn't this cause the bright spot on the side of the gear?

I am not convinced there is a problem with the gear(s) that would affect how it runs. Yes, they do not look like a lot of effort was put into the quality of the machine work, but does it affect how well they perform?
Edit2: This "Is it good enough?" attitude is now endemic across all Marklin components and complete products. The days of "Is it the very best we can do?" are long gone.

Apparently though, there is a history of bad armatures. Perhaps the time spent cleaning the gear was merely a futile act.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline grahame  
#34 Posted : 28 June 2014 14:30:43(UTC)
grahame

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Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
I agree with everything you say!!!
Offline grahame  
#35 Posted : 29 June 2014 14:33:54(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
One final thought, when I ran the motor on its own. with no gears in place.....using jumper wires from the controller..it did run but it STILL got hot after a about a minute or less..almost too hot to touch...especially that top bearing that requires lubrication every 20 hrs. That has always been red hot...right from the first time I took the body off to check brushes and lubricate. This was long before I ever took the wheels out.

Offline tulit  
#36 Posted : 29 June 2014 15:17:32(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Regardless if there was a problem before you dismantled everything, you should never mess around with it unless you're fine with losing the warranty.

At the end of the day, consider yourself lucky if marklin agrees to fix it for free. I don't believe they have any obligation to do so.
Offline grahame  
#37 Posted : 29 June 2014 15:45:14(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
....you should never mess around with it....


If this is all you have to say please don't post replies on my thread. Thank you.

Offline biedmatt  
#38 Posted : 29 June 2014 15:45:57(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
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Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
Regardless if there was a problem before you dismantled everything, you should never mess around with it unless you're fine with losing the warranty.

At the end of the day, consider yourself lucky if marklin agrees to fix it for free. I don't believe they have any obligation to do so.


I disagree. When they get it and open it up, they will find all the parts are exactly as they made them. Nothing has been modified. They will then determine that the failure was their fault. There's no reason to dismantle something if it isn't broke. It had to break before he decided to disassemble it. If parts were modified or damaged when reassembled, they will be able to tell. I see nothing in the pictures that suggests this, only parts that are of the quality and condition they were when Marklin put it all together. The only real question, is it still inside the warranty period? Do you have a valid receipt? Or can they determine it was made within the warranty period working back from the date they receive it? If it sat on the shelf for years and sold without a valid receipt is the only way I feel Marklin can claim it is not a warranty repair.

Marklin will replace the armature and any parts damaged by the extreme heat and then send it back. Bad armatures appear to be a known issue. If these are the only parts that need replaced, then clearly the blame lies with Marklin. To deny warranty on these parts would be a chicken **** move on their part.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Purellum  
#39 Posted : 29 June 2014 16:27:38(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool


Quote:

Quote:


....you should never mess around with it....



If this is all you have to say please don't post replies on my thread. Thank you.



Grahame, this is an open forum, please don't start to tell people what they can or can't write, even if you don't agree.

Per.

Cool
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Offline grahame  
#40 Posted : 29 June 2014 17:04:56(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool


Quote:

Quote:


....you should never mess around with it....



If this is all you have to say please don't post replies on my thread. Thank you.



Grahame, this is an open forum, please don't start to tell people what they can or can't write, even if you don't agree.

Per.

Cool


You are right Per....if you read exactly what I wrote I "asked" him to refrain, I did not "tell" him.
Offline grahame  
#41 Posted : 29 June 2014 17:07:33(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post


...consider yourself lucky if marklin agrees.....


Could you be any more patronizing?

Offline Purellum  
#42 Posted : 29 June 2014 17:28:51(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
You are right Per....if you read exactly what I wrote I "asked" him to refrain, I did not "tell" him.


In my world the end result is the same; you see a lot of people trying to help you here; but if you don't like what they write, you "kindly" ask them not to post in "your" thread anymore.

Tulit is absolutely right, that Märklin could just send your loco back to you, unfixed at your cost.

If you can't handle the truth, don't ask for it.

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline grahame  
#43 Posted : 29 June 2014 18:06:29(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


.... don't ask for it.

Per.

Cool



I don't recall asking for anything actually...I am posting all of this to try and help others who may have the same problem.....




Offline Purellum  
#44 Posted : 29 June 2014 19:41:00(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
I don't recall asking for anything actually


I do. I your first post you make a reference to your other post where you ask a lot of questions and describe the many times you have taken the loco apart. If I were a dealer and saw all you have done to this loco so far I would definitely refuse to do a warranty repair!

All I'm asking you is to keep the polite way of conversation that we try to keep in this forum; I hope it's not too much to ask for.

End of conversation from me, I don't want to make a long debate of this.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline grahame  
#45 Posted : 29 June 2014 19:51:55(UTC)
grahame

United States   
Joined: 20/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Houston
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool


End of conversation from me........

Per.

Cool



Thank you..I appreciate that...
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#46 Posted : 30 June 2014 00:00:11(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: grahame Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
....you should never mess around with it....


If this is all you have to say please don't post replies on my thread. Thank you.



I think Tulit's comments are quite reasonable. If you try to fix something yourself, you cannot reasonably expect the manufacturer to then repair it for you under warranty. That's all Tulit was trying to say, and I think he wasn't trying to be patronising.

Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
I disagree. When they get it and open it up, they will find all the parts are exactly as they made them. Nothing has been modified.


That depends - it has absolutely nothing to do with modifications. If the Marklin Service Centre realise that the loco has been disassembled and then reassembled (no matter how good a job has been done), then they are under no obligation to honour the warranty. If they don't realise that, then they may well honour the warranty. But the point is, if you do disassemble a loco yourself, and then expect to make a warranty claim, you put yourself at risk of the warranty not being honoured.

Thread restored by moderator since the topic contains valuable information.

Edited by user 30 June 2014 22:43:31(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline biedmatt  
#47 Posted : 30 June 2014 13:36:02(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
I disagree. When they get it and open it up, they will find all the parts are exactly as they made them. Nothing has been modified.



That depends - it has absolutely nothing to do with modifications. If the Marklin Service Centre realise that the loco has been disassembled and then reassembled (no matter how good a job has been done), then they are under no obligation to honour the warranty. If they don't realise that, then they may well honour the warranty. But the point is, if you do disassemble a loco yourself, and then expect to make a warranty claim, you put yourself at risk of the warranty not being honoured.



You edited out an important sentence to my post David, something you have done in the past. "If parts were modified or damaged when reassembled, they will be able to tell." Plus my summation paragraph: "Marklin will replace the armature and any parts damaged by the extreme heat and then send it back. Bad armatures appear to be a known issue. If these are the only parts that need replaced, then clearly the blame lies with Marklin. To deny warranty on these parts would be a chicken **** move on their part."

So, if the gears are all okay and as Marklin supplied and assembled them, then the only bad part is the armature and those parts damaged by the excessive heat when the armature failed. You do not feel this is a problem that is Marklin's fault? If they can determine the condition of each item as I have stated, then they have no obligation to replace the parts that failed? I disagree. Whether it was disassembled or not, what has failed is obvious and not because Grahame took it apart. Now, if there are burs and damage to the gears due to it being disassembled, then Marklin has no responsibility to replace those, but that does not appear to be the situation here. The only fault anyone has seen in the photos is a groove in the side of one gear. Clearly it was made that way. The motor lacks the torque to drive the gears with such drag on them and Grahame didn't carve a perfectly concentric groove into the side of the gear. I will also stand by my statement that if the facts are as I state them, then to deny warranty would be a cowardly act.

Edit: Have you seen the instruction on how to replace the rubber tires on the current Railbus? You must perform a significant disassembly to access the axle to replace the tires. So significant a disassembly that some here at M-users have stated they will not buy one because of it. See a recent thread by Anders. Nowhere does Marklin state this will void my warranty. So, significant disassembly is okay on some products but not others? Where do we, and especially Marklin, draw the line?

See page 36
http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/39982_betrieb.pdf

https://www.marklin-user...and-body.aspx#post457361

Edited by user 30 June 2014 22:56:48(UTC)  | Reason: Added link to Anders' thread

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#48 Posted : 30 June 2014 23:09:00(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
No, I hadn't seen the Railbus instructions, but I would think that if that is the process to replace the rubber tyres, and Marklin publish it in their manuals, then I guess it is OK to do that.

On the other hand they do not publish a process to pull gears off a loco to fix an armature problem, or remove wheels and gears, etc, so I would think if you did and Marklin realised you did, they may not honour the warranty. Now, it appears that Grahame has been very careful in disassembling and reassembling the loco - no one is complaining about the competency and quality of what he has done, just the fact that he did it and the risk that he therefore places himself in that the warranty will not be honoured.

As to me editing out bits from your quotes, there was no malice or trickery intended, but my point is it doesn't matter that Grahame didn't modify anything or damage anything, the point that we are all making (and I've repeated this so many times that I'm going blue in the face) is that doing anything not sanctioned by the manufacturer puts you at risk of the warranty not being honoured - end of story (it doesn't matter how you try present it as to what was being done).

Just because Haines publish detailed manuals on how to repair your car, that doesn't mean that the manufacturer will honour the car's warranty if you use that information. To qualify for warranty servicing, you have to have your car serviced by an authorised agent of the manufacturer and at regular times / mileage. User maintenance (apart from normal fluid topups, etc) invalidates the warranty.

Now in all likelihood, Grahame will end up having the warranty honoured, simply because Marklin won't realise what has gone on.
Offline biedmatt  
#49 Posted : 30 June 2014 23:55:03(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Well, the DB 89 is just two screws that hold a cover over the axles and intermediate gears. Remove them and the whole thing falls out the bottom. Far less that the tire on a railbus. But anyway, US law allows you to service and maintain an item even as complex as your car. So yes, over here you could use that Haynes manual and do it yourself. The manufacturer can not restrict who you have service and maintain your car. They tried and lost in court. It falls under "restraint of trade". So, to deny warranty the manufacturer has to prove the damage was consequential to work you performed on it. That clearly is not the case here and what I have said all along. Just because you took it apart, Marklin does not have the right to deny warranty. Simple US, and most likely most all other nation's, law.

Edit: A manufacturer can not dictate to you who must service your item in order to maintain it. You may be able to find someone able to do the job cheaper. This is the restraint of trade. So law requires the manufacturer must demonstrate or prove that your working on it caused the failure. Then they may deny warranty. I have not seen anyone make the argument that is was improperly serviced or maintained. The only comment I have seen is that a gear has a groove. It was most likely made that way as it would be most difficult for that motor to turn that gear with that kind of load on it.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline RayF  
#50 Posted : 01 July 2014 00:17:04(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Well, the DB 89 is just two screws that hold a cover over the axles and intermediate gears. Remove them and the whole thing falls out the bottom. Far less that the tire on a railbus. But anyway, US law allows you to service and maintain an item even as complex as your car. So yes, over here you could use that Haynes manual and do it yourself. The manufacturer can not restrict who you have service and maintain your car. They tried and lost in court. It falls under "restraint of trade". So, to deny warranty the manufacturer has to prove the damage was consequential to work you performed on it. That clearly is not the case here and what I have said all along. Just because you took it apart, Marklin does not have the right to deny warranty. Simple US, and most likely most all other nation's, law.


No, not really. Most car manufacturers insist on a service manual which has been filled in and stamped by an official dealer. If you don't service the car at the recommended intervals by an approved official dealer the guarantee will not be honoured.

If this is different in the USA then it must be a special case.

I also agree with the comments above. If you mess around with a loco other than routine servicing you run the risk that they may not honour the guarantee.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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