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Offline 610  
#1 Posted : 03 April 2014 03:16:04(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Hi guys,
I have a special issue:
I would like to have Life Like Proto Santa Fe E6 A-B Unit to pull my Märklin "Chief" train which consists of 11 Märklin streamliner cars.
What would you do in my place?

A) Buy the Brawa Union Pacific E7 and place the Proto Santa Fe E6 shell on the chassis of the Brawa E7?
OR
B) Convert the Santa Fe E6 from DC to AC by attaching the sliding shoe on the B Unit so that the A Unit can keep all it´s 6 powered axles?

+ of version A:
No conversion work from DC to AC is needed.
A Unit has 3 powered axles but with 4 traction tires.
- of version A:
Very expensive costs because you must buy 2 engines: the Brawa E7 AND the Proto E6.
A Unit has only 3 powered axles.

+ of version B:
Much cheaper costs because you only need to buy the Proto E6.
A Unit has 6 powered axles.
- of version B:
A Unit has 6 powered axles but no traction tires.
Conversion work from DC to AC is needed.

What do you think: Which engine can pull more?
A Unit with 3 powered axles and 4 traction tires?
OR
A Unit with 6 powered axles but no traction tires?

By the way: is there anybody out there who converted a Proto E6 from DC to AC and can tell me something about the results?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by 610
Offline jvuye  
#2 Posted : 03 April 2014 08:35:25(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,
I have a special issue:
I would like to have Life Like Proto Santa Fe E6 A-B Unit to pull my Märklin "Chief" train which consists of 11 Märklin streamliner cars.
What would you do in my place?

A) Buy the Brawa Union Pacific E7 and place the Proto Santa Fe E6 shell on the chassis of the Brawa E7?
OR
B) Convert the Santa Fe E6 from DC to AC by attaching the sliding shoe on the B Unit so that the A Unit can keep all it´s 6 powered axles?

+ of version A:
No conversion work from DC to AC is needed.
A Unit has 3 powered axles but with 4 traction tires.
- of version A:
Very expensive costs because you must buy 2 engines: the Brawa E7 AND the Proto E6.
A Unit has only 3 powered axles.

+ of version B:
Much cheaper costs because you only need to buy the Proto E6.
A Unit has 6 powered axles.
- of version B:
A Unit has 6 powered axles but no traction tires.
Conversion work from DC to AC is needed.

What do you think: Which engine can pull more?
A Unit with 3 powered axles and 4 traction tires?
OR
A Unit with 6 powered axles but no traction tires?

By the way: is there anybody out there who converted a Proto E6 from DC to AC and can tell me something about the results?



Hi "610" and welcome to the forum.

Conversions from 2 rail to 3 rails: This is one of my favourite topics, so I could write a lot about it...
I have two Proto 2000 UP E8 units here just waiting to be converted ...so your timing is impeccable.
I have also promised to post the whole process of converting Athearn and Kato and similat engines, so it's just a matter of days before I shoot the pictures and write it up.

I can give you some opinions, but we would all first like to have some background about you and your hobby and how you approach it.

I'll answer the last question first: 3 powered axles with 4 tires will pull ***way*** more than 6 powered axles with slick wheels.
It's just a matter of physics and friction coefficients and can easily be demonstrated ...but suffice to state the fact for now and watch this little video of an Athearn Union Pacific Turbine loco



I have literally performed dozens of such conversions (and actually a number of them as we speak) so in due time I can document my approach.
Most of the loks with "all powered axles" do not have enough space to install a pick up shoe under a powered bogie, so some drastic surgery is required (in fact disabling one of the power bogie and grafting some custom made parts to attach the ski, then rewiring and adapting the mechanichal specs, the last not always being trivial!

Now regarding your choice of E-units: one good thing about ATSF, is that they used their F-units quite extensively on all the Chiefs and other tribesmen...so why not simply using Märklin F7s ?
They are plentiful on Ebay...and converting an old one to modern (Märklin) technolofy is waaayy BigGrin simpler than surgery on a 2 rail .

Here's my approach to an El Capitan consist



What do you say?

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline 610  
#3 Posted : 07 April 2014 01:55:08(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Bonjour Jacques,
je suis pas ici pour discuter mon fond ou m´approche parce que c´est pas le sujet d´un forum pour moi. Je suis ici seulement pour poser/reponder des/aux questions et pour recevoir/donner les reponses. C´est tout.
You already answered my question: 3 powered axles with traction tires pull much better than 6 powered axles without traction tires. I already supposed that. So I will skip that E6 project.
I wanted to have the E6 because they are the most beautiful diesel engines ever for me! I simply love their looks.
Of course I have the Märklin F7.
Here are my 3 Super Chief videos with my A-B-B-B-A consist. Maybe you already saw one of the videos. Enjoy!
http://youtu.be/edZWraqCCZM
http://youtu.be/4n58b9oGZm4
http://youtu.be/xD3efr5ROrM
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by 610
Offline foumaro  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2014 08:16:15(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Bonjour Jacques,
je suis pas ici pour discuter mon fond ou m´approche parce que c´est pas le sujet d´un forum pour moi. Je suis ici seulement pour poser/reponder des/aux questions et pour recevoir/donner les reponses. C´est tout.
You already answered my question: 3 powered axles with traction tires pull much better than 6 powered axles without traction tires. I already supposed that. So I will skip that E6 project.
I wanted to have the E6 because they are the most beautiful diesel engines ever for me! I simply love their looks.
Of course I have the Märklin F7.
Here are my 3 Super Chief videos with my A-B-B-B-A consist. Maybe you already saw one of the videos. Enjoy!
http://youtu.be/edZWraqCCZM
http://youtu.be/4n58b9oGZm4
http://youtu.be/xD3efr5ROrM


Perfect train.Please tell us which marklin models of the F7 motors did you use for the A-B-B-B-A consist.BigGrin
Offline 610  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2014 16:09:45(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Thank you. In maybe 2 weeks I will upload a Vol. 4 video of my Super Chief. It will be the most perfect version because the 2 coaches will be replaced by sleepers in order to have an all sleeper consist, and I will add brass made venetian blinds into the dome, diner, dormitory lounge and observation.
My A-B-B-B-A consist is made of:
37622 (A-B Unit), 2 x 4063 (B Unit) & 1 x 3060 (A Unit). Both A Units have the Märklin 5 pole Hochleistungsmotor and both A Units have an Uhlenbrock DCC decoder installed. Both decoders were synchronized.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by 610
Offline foumaro  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2014 17:32:11(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Thank you. In maybe 2 weeks I will upload a Vol. 4 video of my Super Chief. It will be the most perfect version because the 2 coaches will be replaced by sleepers in order to have an all sleeper consist, and I will add brass made venetian blinds into the dome, diner, dormitory lounge and observation.
My A-B-B-B-A consist is made of:
37622 (A-B Unit), 2 x 4063 (B Unit) & 1 x 3060 (A Unit). Both A Units have the Märklin 5 pole Hochleistungsmotor and both A Units have an Uhlenbrock DCC decoder installed. Both decoders were synchronized.


First time i see two synchronized decoders working together,very interesting.I am waiting for the new video.LOL
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Offline jvuye  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2014 18:18:12(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
First time i see two synchronized decoders working together,very interesting.I am waiting for the new video.LOL


Actually, I did not mention it, but my ABBA ATSF set you see in the video is in fact made out of two independant AB sets...each with its own Loksound decoder.
Synchronization is easy with the Lokprogrammer: you just copy the files of one of the locos into the other, then just fine tune the speed curve.
This set is working so well that I can handle the same consist (minus observation car) as a push pull train, with an AB set at each end.
No derailment!
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline foumaro  
#8 Posted : 08 April 2014 08:05:15(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
First time i see two synchronized decoders working together,very interesting.I am waiting for the new video.LOL


Actually, I did not mention it, but my ABBA ATSF set you see in the video is in fact made out of two independant AB sets...each with its own Loksound decoder.
Synchronization is easy with the Lokprogrammer: you just copy the files of one of the locos into the other, then just fine tune the speed curve.
This set is working so well that I can handle the same consist (minus observation car) as a push pull train, with an AB set at each end.
No derailment!
Cheers


Very clever sollution,i am waiting the new videos.Love
Offline Alsterstreek  
#9 Posted : 08 April 2014 15:13:38(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: 610 Go to Quoted Post
Thank you. In maybe 2 weeks I will upload a Vol. 4 video of my Super Chief. It will be the most perfect version because the 2 coaches will be replaced by sleepers in order to have an all sleeper consist, and I will add brass made venetian blinds into the dome, diner, dormitory lounge and observation.
My A-B-B-B-A consist is made of:
37622 (A-B Unit), 2 x 4063 (B Unit) & 1 x 3060 (A Unit). Both A Units have the Märklin 5 pole Hochleistungsmotor and both A Units have an Uhlenbrock DCC decoder installed. Both decoders were synchronized.


Hi 610,

In one of the video descriptions you stated that the Super Chief (SC) did not carry any coaches. In principle true, but there is always a prototypical excuse. In the summer of 1968 the SC rooster showed four chair cars - see screenshot (source: http://santafe.gmbus.com).

Smile

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
image.jpg
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Offline 610  
#10 Posted : 08 April 2014 23:25:13(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Yes haha, there is always an excuse. But my Super Chief represents the 1951-1954 era, and during this time (the absolute peak of the train) it was an all sleeper train of course. The round end observations were converted to blunt end observations in 1954, the observations were entirely dropped in 1956 and already in 1958 the Super Chief was combined with the El Capitan and also started featuring coaches during peak travel seasons. For me personally, the end of the real all sleeper Super Chief therefore came already in 1958.
By the way here is some video information I forgot to mention:
Vol. 1 is with interior lighting installed but the sliders have been taken off. So no lights in the train (and still no decoder in the observation).
Vol. 2 is with dcc decoder in the observation car installed but the cars still have their original light bulb lighting and the 2 baggage cars have no lighting at all.
Vol. 3 is with all cars having LED lighting and electric couplers installed.
The only difference between Vol. 3 and Vol. 4 will be 2 more sleepers instead of the 2 coaches. But to be honest I am still not sure if I really wanna replace the 2 coaches, because they were presents from my mum (as well as many other cars in the consist) that I received while still being a schoolboy. I feel VERY connected to all my presents and especially model railway presents, so it´s psychically hard for me to replace these 2 coaches and to sell them. But on the other side I really wanna have an all sleeper Super Chief...it´s such a tough decision!

Now back to the topic, although this time it´s not E6/7 related but E8 related.
I´m a huge Texas & Pacific fan, and yesterday I found out about this:
http://www.broadway-limited.com...aragon2sounddcdccho.aspx
Broadway Limited will release a T&P E8 in Eagle paint scheme! I simply MUST get this engine and convert it to AC! I know that after the conversion it will have only 3 powered axles without any traction tires, BUT: this engine doesn´t need to pull 12 Märklin streamliner cars! It´s supposed to pull 10 plastic Rivarossi/IHC cars. These cars are very light, so I´m very sure that the single E8 A Unit won´t have problems to pull it, even after there is interior lighting, passengers and a slider + drumhead and red rear lights in the observation car installed.
Here is the "Eagle" train that I wanna put together:
Rivarossi 8 car set:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/19112505...trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
IHC 8 car set:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/22140503...trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
I will use 6 complete IHC cars, 4 complete Rivarossi cars and 2 Rivarossi interiors.
Here are the details of my "Eagle" consist:
1. IHC RPO "Colorado Eagle" without interior but with metal wheels of Rivarossi RPO
2. IHC Baggage "The Eagle" without interior but with metal wheels of Rivarossi Baggage
3. IHC Combine (Baggage Coach) "The Eagle" with IHC Heavyweight Combine interior but without metal wheels -> must buy extra wheels!
4. Rivarossi Coach "Colorado Eagle" with interior
5. IHC Dome Coach "Colorado Eagle" with interior and metal wheels of Rivarossi Dome Coach
6. Rivarossi Diner "Colorado Eagle" with interior
7. IHC Duplex Sleeper "The Eagle" with custom made interior but with out metal wheels -> must buy extra wheels!
8. Rivarossi Sleeper "Colorado Eagle" with interior
9. Rivarossi Sleeper "Colorado Eagle" with interior
10. IHC Observation "The Eagle" with interior and metal wheels of Rivarossi Observation
So after putting my train together like this, I will have to replace the "Colorado" lettering by "The", because I don´t wanna have the MP "Colorado Eagle" (St. Louis - Denver) but the MP/T&P "The Eagle" (St. Louis - Dallas - El Paso), also called "Texas Eagle" (although "Texas Eagle" was never applied on the letterboards but only "The Eagle"). The replacing of "Colorado" will take place either by sraping off the "Colorado" lettering or overpainting it with a blue color that hopefully matches the blue color of the car 100%. Then "The" decals will be applied. The "Eagle" stays at is.
I decided to replace the Rivarossi RPO, Baggage, Dome Coach and Observation by IHC cars because the IHC cars are MUCH closer to the T&P prototype than the Rivarossi cars. Especially the significant dome of the dome car (the Rivarossi Dome Coach is only halfway correct for the MP "Colorado Eagle" but not for the MP/T&P "The Eagle"!).
So I will sell the Rivarossi Baggage (equipped with IHC plastic wheels), RPO (equipped with IHC plastic wheels), Dome Coach (equipped with IHC plastic wheels and no interior anymore except for the dome area) and Observation (equipped with IHC plastic wheels and no interior anymore) and the IHC Coach and Diner that I don´t need anyway.
That T&P E8 A Unit with matching "The Eagle" train would be a perfect addition to my Märklin T&P F7, which you can see in A-A configuration here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7L3Mg1S37Y
And in A-B-A configuration here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nstaJ-7vc
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?
Should I take the risk and preorder/buy that Broadway Limited T&P E8 A Unit and hope that it will be able to pull my 10 plastic "Eagle" cars by IHC and Rivarossi??????????
Or should I buy these passenger cars anyway but let my Märklin T&P F7 in freight scheme pull the "Eagle"????? Of course that wouldn´t be prototypical because T&P never let their F7´s pull "The Eagle", but at least I would be on the safe side with this and know 100% that they will pull the train (actually I think that a Märklin F7 is able to pull 30 Rivarossi/IHC plastic cars!!!).

And while I´m talking about the T&P anyway now, I can also mention this here right now:
The T&P I-1a 2-10-4 is my favorite engine ever! Yes you read it correctly, not my favorite steam engine but my favorite engine! It´s my absolute #1 locomotive and since many years I´m a huge fan of it and dreaming of having it running in HO on my Märklin tracks. And guess what: together with the T&P E8 A Unit, Broadway Limited also announced the T&P 2-10-4 for next year!!!
http://www.broadway-limited.com/tandp2-10-4.aspx
I am so happy but at the same time so sad because it has 22 inch minimum radius. Märklin R3 is 515 mm = 20 inch. That´s only 2 inches less than 22 inch, but sometimes 2 inches can really matter. I know very well that 2 inches can really matter a lot, because I once had a Broadway Limited Santa Fe 2-10-2 (It has the same driving wheel diameter like the T&P 2-10-4). The minimum radius of this engine is 22 inches, but when I pulled/pushed it with my hand through my Märklin R3 curves, it did not derail. But it was obvious that the engine was "on it´s limit" inside the R3 curve. And pulling/pushing a locomotive with the hand through the R3 is never the same as when the locomotive is driving through the R3 under it´s own power. I met another man who also had that model and who already converted it from DC to AC, and his engine did not derail in the R3 curve too, BUT when entering the R3 curve it slowed down a lot! That means that the model was really operating "on it´s limit", so no smooth operation in the R3 with the same speed as on straight track is possible. Thanks God he told me that before I made anything with the 2-10-2!
Because of this story, I´m very undecided if I should take the risk and buy the T&P 2-10-4 or not. The Santa Fe 2-10-2 was an all plastic model, but the T&P 2-10-4 is a metal/brass model (metal chassis and brass body). That´s a difference of course. But both engines (The SF 2-10-2 and T&P 2-10-4) have the same driving wheel diameter. And when the SF 2-10-2 already couldn´t make it 100% flawlessly through the R3, how could then then even bigger T&P 2-10-4?
I could really kill Broadway Limited for constructing their engines with such a large minimum radius! Their T&P 2-10-4 would be the perfect steamer for me with all those nice features like sound and synchronized puffing smoke, and converting it to AC wouldn´t be a problem too! But I can´t use it just because of 2 inches! What a pitty!
I already wrote an email to Broadway Limited begging them to construct the T&P 2-10-4 in a way so that it has 18 or 20 inch minimum radius, but they have already constructed the chassis and told me that they can´t change anything anymore and the engine will defintely have 22 inch radius. It really surprised me a lot that their tooling for the chassis is already finished, because usually they need up to 5 years to produce the engine after anouncing it for the first time. That happened with their UP 4-12-2: It was announced in 2009 but even after 5 years it still has not been released yet, and it´s still not sure if it will be released in 2014. The T&P 2-10-4 is announced for February 2015 (same as the T&P E8 A Unit), but I simply can´t imagine that they will release it then when you look at the 4-12-2 story.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT MY ISSUE? WHAT WOULD YOU DO IN MY PLACE (when you know that you don´t have space for a Märklin R4 as mimum radius!)???????????
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#11 Posted : 10 April 2014 01:20:20(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Whoa, and I thought I would already be - well, let's say - ambitious.

When it comes to AC conversion of US models, Jvuye is the unchallenged master of disaster and source of inspiration.

However, I can contribute to the below: Pulling power and potential on plains is much different from that one on grades. If you sticked to the "Teppich-Bahning" approach reflected in your videos, you should have no problem with a defused E unit. But on a grade...? Regarding the comparison with auntie M's F7, I am having my 37622 F7-AB pull a consist of five plastic Frateschi coaches up a two and a half meters long three percent grade - mostly R3 curved track - without problems. And the dummy B unit is already quite a drag, too. Curve radii are another issue. I am into Maerklin for the reliable, versatile (many radii allowing for easements) and "short circuit free" (reverse loops) track system. In hidden areas I make ample use of the space saving R1 radius (again, reverse loops). I am always eying for US made equipment, but when it comes to my "hidden" R1 curves, I only dare to rely on auntie M's own. The MTH AC version of the GP 35 is supposed to master R1 curves, but other locos are more demanding. Thus said, a R4 dictatorship of large steamers would be unacceptable for my humble being. In general, making reference to the French impressionist artists, I follow an impressionist MRR approach: It should give a prototypical impression rather than a prototypical reflection. E.g., if there is no RPO coach available, a baggage car will do.

However, those are only personal views.
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Offline 610  
#12 Posted : 13 April 2014 00:09:25(UTC)
610


Joined: 02/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 30
Hahaha, I´m not that ambicious as it seems haha. If I was really ambicious, I would have bought a prototypical 14 car brass Challenger Imports Super Chief instead of putting together a non prototypical Märklin Super Chief. But like you too I love Märklin items and I will never give away my Märklin Super Chief in favour of other manufacturers. Like you too I love the R1-ability of Märklin items, and I would certainly use the R1 if my other equipment would be able to run through it. But because of my engines and passenger cars, I accepted to restrict myself to R3 as minimum. I don´t like it at all but I must accept it. In my eyes the R3 as minimum radius is already big, so it totally frustrates me to see that even the R3 is not enough for most big US steamers because the US producers still think in those f***ing big dimensions! The T&P 2-10-4 really is my favorite engine ever, and now after so many years of waiting when I have a chance to get such a good model with smoke and sound and DCC, I still can´t get it because of the f***ing 22 inch minimum radius! I really don´t know what to do. If I order it in the USA, it will cost me 200 € less even with shipping and import costs than buying it here in Europe. But if I buy it here in Europe, pull it through my R3 radius and see that it can´t run through it, I can still return it and get my money back. When purchasing from the USA, I can´t do that. So that´s the real big drama about it: Paying 200 € less and not being able to return it or paying 200 € more and being able to return it. I´m actually very sure that it will have problems in the R3. It will maybe not derail but maybe slow down a lot while running through the R3. But of course I don´t know that for sure until I didn´t try it out. So I must get it anyway. It´s such a beautiful model and the AC conversion really isn´t a big thing in that case. It´s only the minimum radius that´s giving me headaches. You have a F7 A-B Unit pulling 5 Frateschi cars up a 3% grade??? Hahahaha! I´m 100% sure that i could even put 20 Frateschi cars up that grade! They´re so light! I´m also thinking about buying the MTH GP35 for my mexican passenger train and repaint it. But first I have to see how my MTH FA-1 will perform. I also bought it for my mexican passenger train, and on tuesday I will finally hold it in my hands together with the MTH SP GS-4. The FA-1 is more important for me than the GP35, but if I see that the FA-1 performs well, I will seriously think about a GP35 or a GP38-2 by MTH. While talking about ambiciousness: only 4 cars of my 10 car mexican passenger train are really prototypical, so that´s the proof that I´m not taking it too serious with 100% prototypicalness. With my bolivian 9 Rivarossi car passenger train (featuring 3 Frateschi freight cars as well) it´s the same. I totally agree with you: It should give a prototypical impression rather than a prototypical reflection. Like my Super Chief for example: instead of a RPO I have a 2nd Baggage. And it´s totally ok for me. About the "Teppich-Bahning": I prefer to call it "Boden-Bahning" because I don´t have a Teppich haha. I don´t wanna stick to it all my life of course. But it will stay like this until the day when I´ll be rich enough to build my own house where I´ll have my own hobby-room for the layout. And only God knows if and when that will happen.
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