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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 08 March 2014 06:45:04(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, I thought I'll share this information with you to give you an idea how much you would pay if you either purchase a fully made up module or you buy the parts individual from different suppliers.
I start of with the finished ready to buy product: I just made up 22 braking modules (no mfx) A$ 742.00 (not including delivery), my cost was A$ 233.00
buy buying the individual parts: here are some examples:

88 pieces x 3-Pin Plug Screw Terminal Block Connector 5mm Pitch Panel PCB Mount from an Australian distributor
44 pieces x 2-Pin Plug Screw Terminal Block Connector 5mm Pitch Panel PCB Mount from the same firm = A$ 147.40
from an overseas distributor I paid = A$ 28.00
prepunched circuit board A$ 10.00 each I bought it at a sale for A$ 3.00 each.

I've managed to design it in such a way a.) minimize the amount of lines to be used, b.) to be able to duplicate the same length of wires on different lines, c.) premark the spots with dots (its a male thing), d.) and solder all the wires first so they can pressed against the board at all times when soldering, e.) marking the dots prevents you making mistakes, f.) figure out which wire goes on which line.

the second pictures shows how many mistakes I've made and the alterations I undertook (re positioning wires).

When all the components have been fitted I'll drill 4 holes in each module so one can secure them to a board.

if someone is interested in these modules I don't have enough prepunched boards to do an extra production.


regards.,

John
river6109 attached the following image(s):
braking module.JPG
braking module 1.JPG
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Johnvr  
#2 Posted : 08 March 2014 07:52:16(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi John,

I am completely hooked on these Braking Modules. I saw Braking Modules in action when I visited the layout of Andreas (The Never Ending Story) about 3 weeks ago. There and then I decided that I needed them. They work so well on the layout and add a new aspect of realism when the train slows down gradually and stop in front of the signal / station, with the headlights remaining in the on position and the functions still working.

I must give credit to HUIB MAASKANT for publishing his storyboard on the internet, for having read that document, I had the courage to build them myself and install them successfully on the layout.

http://www.floodland.nl/aim/info_afremmodule_en_1.htm

Anyway, I designed mine slightly differently. I decided that I wanted to use a 12V DC line to power the relay, instead of taking power from the track. The rest of the design is the same. So far I have built 3 of them and installed them all on the main station of my layout. I am using the good old 7039 Marklin signals at my station, and these interact with the Braking Module.

The Total Cost for the materials is US$ 2.00 per completed Braking Module. To itemise it, that is US$ 0.60 for the Relay, US$ 0.50 for the electrical connectors, US$ 0.40 for the diodes and resistors and capacitor, plus some off-cust of electrical board and some solder wire and electricity. Oh, and probably about 2 hours of labout/ having fun.

I need another 5 for my layout, and I already have some advance orders from my friends, so I better get going building some more.

Here is a picture of my completed Braking Module ready for installation :

Regards,BigGrin
John

Johnvr attached the following image(s):
DSC00083.JPG
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Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 08 March 2014 08:53:26(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
John,

my relay's are a bit more expensive but again I got them about half the price, the difference between yours and mine is, there are 2 relay's on mine, the second one for the signal and lights to switch on and off, e.g station lights.
I'm still having problems using my ESU micro servo motors with the switch Pilot servo module. I don't seem to be able to find a solution how to connect the switch pilot servo module to or in conjunction with the braking module. the part I like about the switch pilot servo module is the motor and the module gives you a slow side movement of your turnout tongue and also it is precise and accurate without failure unless the tongue itself is stuck.
it has connectors for momentary push buttons but these can only be activated one at the time and it has its own power supply.
I haven't figured out yet how to activate the switch pilot servo module on its own or via the ECoS. so it has been a bit frustrating and I've got so many other things to do in meantime I haven't had a chance to look at it properly.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Johnvr  
#4 Posted : 08 March 2014 11:10:43(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
John,

my relay's are a bit more expensive but again I got them about half the price, the difference between yours and mine is, there are 2 relay's on mine, the second one for the signal and lights to switch on and off, e.g station lights.

John


John,

Thanks very much for your note. Yes, I have only 1 relay because the solenoid from the Marklin 7039 Home Signal provides the other relay. The 7039 Home Signal relay of course changes the semaphore arm and red/green light, and it also switches the Braking Signal relay on / off so that the Home Signal actually drives the Braking Module.

Unfortunately I can't help you with your ESU problem ..

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline PJMärklin  
#5 Posted : 08 March 2014 13:33:16(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,204
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
Hi John,

I am completely hooked on these Braking Modules. I saw Braking Modules in action when I visited the layout of Andreas (The Never Ending Story) about 3 weeks ago. There and then I decided that I needed them. They work so well on the layout and add a new aspect of realism when the train slows down gradually and stop in front of the signal / station, with the headlights remaining in the on position and the functions still working.

I must give credit to HUIB MAASKANT for publishing his storyboard on the internet, for having read that document, I had the courage to build them myself and install them successfully on the layout.

http://www.floodland.nl/...nfo_afremmodule_en_1.htm

Anyway, I designed mine slightly differently. I decided that I wanted to use a 12V DC line to power the relay, instead of taking power from the track. The rest of the design is the same. So far I have built 3 of them and installed them all on the main station of my layout. I am using the good old 7039 Marklin signals at my station, and these interact with the Braking Module.

The Total Cost for the materials is US$ 2.00 per completed Braking Module. To itemise it, that is US$ 0.60 for the Relay, US$ 0.50 for the electrical connectors, US$ 0.40 for the diodes and resistors and capacitor, plus some off-cust of electrical board and some solder wire and electricity. Oh, and probably about 2 hours of labout/ having fun.

I need another 5 for my layout, and I already have some advance orders from my friends, so I better get going building some more.

Here is a picture of my completed Braking Module ready for installation :



Hello John,

Well done!! You have motivated me!! I have been pondering brake modules for some years.

I would be grateful of your parts list and circuit diagrams, if you are inclined.

You may prefer to inform me by a PM

Regards,

PJ



Regards,BigGrin
John

Edited by moderator 08 March 2014 21:29:34(UTC)  | Reason: Changed location of the final quote tag - the whole post was posted as a 'quote'.

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 08 March 2014 21:30:30(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
I would be grateful of your parts list and circuit diagrams, if you are inclined.


John already has posted a link!

See the link to Huib Maaskant's website.
Offline Johnvr  
#7 Posted : 08 March 2014 21:50:02(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi all,

I decided to modify the diagram from HUIB because I wanted to run the power from a separate 12V DC circuit instead of using the track power, and because the 7039 Home Signal has its own relay which I use for switching the Braking Module on and off. Here you can see a diagram of the circuit which I used. The rest of the electronics board is the same as HUIB.



Regards,BigGrin
John
File Attachment(s):
Braking Module Circuit.pdf (124kb) downloaded 127 time(s).
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Offline PJMärklin  
#8 Posted : 09 March 2014 05:21:42(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,204
Location: Hobart, Australia
Hello again John,

Thank you very much for your trouble to provide me with your detailed information
of parts list, circuit diagram and directions.

Thanks also for your explanation of how and why your module is actually different
to the (already posted) link to Huib Maaskant's website.

Most helpful.

Regards,

PJ
Offline river6109  
#9 Posted : 09 March 2014 09:23:06(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Hello again John,

Thank you very much for your trouble to provide me with your detailed information
of parts list, circuit diagram and directions.

Thanks also for your explanation of how and why your module is actually different
to the (already posted) link to Huib Maaskant's website.

Most helpful.

Regards,

PJ


PJ, any other questions you have please do not hessitate to ask me, as my memory isn't the best to remember what I promise or will do in due course.BigGrin

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Johnvr  
#10 Posted : 09 March 2014 18:55:00(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
John,

I so enjoy watching trains slowing down while approaching the station using these braking modules BigGrin BigGrin
So I spent most of the day today making 4 more of them ..... (see picture)
Realism at its best !

Regards,BigGrin
John
Johnvr attached the following image(s):
Brakes.JPG
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Offline pschloes  
#11 Posted : 15 March 2014 20:52:08(UTC)
pschloes

United States   
Joined: 01/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 14
Has anyone found the correct miniature relay in the U.S.? I would like to make one, but not able to find a source.
Thanks!
Pete
Offline Hackcell  
#12 Posted : 15 March 2014 20:59:04(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: pschloes Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone found the correct miniature relay in the U.S.? I would like to make one, but not able to find a source.
Thanks!
Pete



Hi,

Have you looked at www.mouser.com ?

I've got from there hard to find electronics to fix jukeboxes.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Oliver nagel  
#13 Posted : 16 March 2014 14:04:43(UTC)
Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
Offline YannisB  
#14 Posted : 16 March 2014 17:00:21(UTC)
YannisB

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 190
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: pschloes Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone found the correct miniature relay in the U.S.? I would like to make one, but not able to find a source.
Thanks!
Pete


I get all my electronic components from All Electronics ( http://www.allelectronics.com/ ).
Very reliable, great service, excellent pricing.

Yannis
Offline Johnvr  
#15 Posted : 16 March 2014 17:16:58(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi all,

Yesterday I installed 2 more of my braking modules on the layout, so I have 5 modules installed and working.

I made a short video today to show how well they work.
In the video, notice the acceleration and braking delays on the trains.
The trains approach a Red Signal by slowing down, and stopping right in front of the signal.
Lights and smoke functions remain in the "on" position.
When the signal turns to Green, then the trains slows start accelerating away.
It's just so realistic, and such a step change from the abrupt halt at a signal that we expect ! Cool Cool

Check out the video here :



I hope you like the video, notwithstanding the video quality.
It is especially satisfying because I made the braking modules myself !

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline mmervine  
#16 Posted : 16 March 2014 18:39:42(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,883
Location: Keene, NH
John-wow...really nice! Also, your layout is looking great!!!
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
Offline YannisB  
#17 Posted : 16 March 2014 18:50:14(UTC)
YannisB

United States   
Joined: 22/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 190
Location: USA
Nice job John! Really smooth...
Yannis
Offline Oliver nagel  
#18 Posted : 17 March 2014 00:55:16(UTC)
Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
I looked for hours for the proper Fuji relay,The relay is not available anymore.
Offline pab-windmills  
#19 Posted : 17 March 2014 03:40:36(UTC)
pab-windmills

United States   
Joined: 02/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 79
Location: Haverhill, MA
JohnVR,

Wow! Very cool - thank you for posting the video!

Are you using contact track, etc, to monitor consist movements?

Paul
Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 17 March 2014 04:31:33(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
here is one of my videos showing the locos slowing down and accelerating with my home made braking module activated via switching tracks

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#21 Posted : 17 March 2014 04:37:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Oliver nagel Go to Quoted Post
I looked for hours for the proper Fuji relay,The relay is not available anymore.


if you look for relays the ones I'm using the relay number is: HFD31/12-L2 , these relays are for a.) turning power track on and off
b.) switching turnouts, c.) switching signal lights, d.) turning lights on and off. if you just want the power on and off you only need 1 realy and this is number: HFD31/12

regards.,

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline pschloes  
#22 Posted : 19 March 2014 18:33:54(UTC)
pschloes

United States   
Joined: 01/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 14
Thanks,
I found a good source for the single coil (HFD31/12), but not the 2 coil (HFD31/12-L2) here in the states .... what would a working diagram look like if I used 2 of the single coil type for my brake modules (sorry for my ignorance of simple electronics)?
pete
Offline Nielsenr  
#23 Posted : 20 March 2014 03:20:33(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Pete,

I am not sure what the pin-outs are for the relay you are looking for, but I use a latching DPDT relay from TE Connectivity, the D3066, with dual 12v coils. Check it out here:

Mouser TE D3066

I use this relay for a bunch of different purposes and have gotten tired of hand building boards, so I recently did up a simple design of a PCB for just the relay and terminals and are having some made for me. Hope to have the boards in the next few days. They apparently were made in Germany and they just hit the USPS sorting facility in NJ today. Hope they work!! LOL!! And if I did the design right, I can also use the board for anon-latched DPDT relay by TE Connectivity also.

As a side topic, I read here on the Forum a while back about "sharing" a braking module between multiple tracks. For example, let's say you have two sidings for a station and you would like the trains to alternate stopping in the station, you could use one braking module for both tracks. The way I built mine, the braking circuitry is separate form the control relays, so it would be very easy to wire one braking circuitry to two different relays, one for each track. Has anyone tried this??

Robert
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Offline river6109  
#24 Posted : 20 March 2014 06:13:06(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Robert,

I have to think about this one and trying to visualize it, the way I've connected mine (2) they are controlling 2 tracks whereas one train enters the station and triggers a switching track and stops. this activates the train on the other track when it enters the single track an other switching track turns the signal (without solenoid) to red (power off), a matter of fact it actually turns both signals red, regardless if one is already red.
the switching track within the siding also turns the turnout on both ends which ever direction the next train has to enter in.
it all depends what is connected to the 2 relays or its function purposes.

John


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Nielsenr  
#25 Posted : 20 March 2014 07:24:37(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
John,

Let me see if I can explain my operation in a more detailed manner. I use K83s from LDT (I buy them in kit form for about US $20). I then make up a simple relay board using latched DPDT relays. I use the output from the K83 to drive the relay. I buy the latched DPDT relay for about US $2.50. So for US $30, I get a K84 decoder with DPDT relays. Better than the $$ for a Marklin K84 with only SPST relays.

My brake module is built so it only creates the braking signal. No relays on the board.

Now, if I take one of the outputs from the K83 with the DPDT relay attached, one pole of the relay can drive a red/green signal or an emergency stop section of track. The other pole can supply either track power or the braking signal to the braking section of the track. Since my relays are independent of the braking signal circuitry, I should be able to take the same output from the braking circuit and attach it to another DPDT relay connected to a second output from the K83 and use it to control the braking area of a second station siding. Since I am talking about alternating trains stopping in two station sidings, in theory, the braking signal would only be used in one true braking section at a time. In other words, one braking signal circuitry to drive two braking areas that are never used at the same time. This would just require less braking signal circuits.

If I still haven't made myself clear, I will try drawing up a sketch.

Robert
Offline pschloes  
#26 Posted : 20 March 2014 17:41:02(UTC)
pschloes

United States   
Joined: 01/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
Pete,

I am not sure what the pin-outs are for the relay you are looking for, but I use a latching DPDT relay from TE Connectivity, the D3066, with dual 12v coils. Check it out here:

Mouser TE D3066

I use this relay for a bunch of different purposes and have gotten tired of hand building boards, so I recently did up a simple design of a PCB for just the relay and terminals and are having some made for me. Hope to have the boards in the next few days. They apparently were made in Germany and they just hit the USPS sorting facility in NJ today. Hope they work!! LOL!! And if I did the design right, I can also use the board for anon-latched DPDT relay by TE Connectivity also.

As a side topic, I read here on the Forum a while back about "sharing" a braking module between multiple tracks. For example, let's say you have two sidings for a station and you would like the trains to alternate stopping in the station, you could use one braking module for both tracks. The way I built mine, the braking circuitry is separate form the control relays, so it would be very easy to wire one braking circuitry to two different relays, one for each track. Has anyone tried this??

Robert


Thanks, I ordered some today!
Offline Hackcell  
#27 Posted : 20 March 2014 18:31:16(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
I have some questions about braking modules,

I'm planning a decent, real layout (got tired to build on the kitchen table, lol) and implementing a braking module or two would be really helpful for what I do have in mind. However,

1 - The braking module is always on? Meaning, whenever a train crosses over it, the train will stop.
2 - Can the braking module be activated using a switch or a s88 pulse?
3 - Can this braking module be connected to a light signal?

The thing is, in the layout I'm planning, there are a couple of crosses, so I want to stop a train coming from a secondary road if the main road is occupied. If not, the train can go ahead without reducing speed.

Thanks in advance¡¡
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Johnvr  
#28 Posted : 20 March 2014 20:51:33(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi everybody,

This topic has really generated such a lot of interest, so thanks to John River6109 for starting it off ! Anyway, I am still revelling in this "new accessory" for the railway which I have recently discovered.

Decided to make another video, this time a better quality so you can see the action properly. Cool Watch the signals changing to release the locomotives, Cool watch the head lights remaining on while the train stops at the station Cool , notice the steam billowing while the train has stopped in front of the red signal Cool , and in particular, watch the slow motion deceleration of the locomotive approaching the the signal and slow motion acceleration once the signal goes green. Just like the real thing Cool Cool !

All controlled automatically from 6021 with Keyboard and Memory and s88 (although can be operated without these), signals are old 7039 Home Signals, switched by k83 decoders. For info, with the exception of the Swiss Cargo, all other locomotives used to be Analog locomotives, but I have converted these to digital by installing Marklin decoders, and set the acceleration / braking delay as required.

Marklin Braking Module 3

If you want a couple of these braking modules for your layout, send me a PM and I can see what we can do.

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline Johnvr  
#29 Posted : 20 March 2014 20:59:50(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I have some questions about braking modules,

I'm planning a decent, real layout (got tired to build on the kitchen table, lol) and implementing a braking module or two would be really helpful for what I do have in mind. However,

1 - The braking module is always on? Meaning, whenever a train crosses over it, the train will stop.
2 - Can the braking module be activated using a switch or a s88 pulse?
3 - Can this braking module be connected to a light signal?

The thing is, in the layout I'm planning, there are a couple of crosses, so I want to stop a train coming from a secondary road if the main road is occupied. If not, the train can go ahead without reducing speed.

Thanks in advance¡¡


Danilo,

Yes, good to get a decent, real layout going !
1 - My braking modules are synchronised with the signal. When signal is green, then locomotive goes straight through at normal speed. When signal is red, the locomotive slows down and stops.
2 - Yes, it can. My signals are activated from the contact track and s88 pulse, but s88 is not necessarily required.
3 - Yes, mine are connected to the 7039 Home signal with semaphore and red/green lights, but can also be connected to light signals.

For your additional question, you can use track occupancy detection to test whether a track section is occupied or not, and set the signal accordingly, so that your trains do not collide at a crossing.

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline Johnvr  
#30 Posted : 20 March 2014 21:12:00(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
John,

Let me see if I can explain my operation in a more detailed manner. I use K83s from LDT (I buy them in kit form for about US $20). I then make up a simple relay board using latched DPDT relays. I use the output from the K83 to drive the relay. I buy the latched DPDT relay for about US $2.50. So for US $30, I get a K84 decoder with DPDT relays. Better than the $$ for a Marklin K84 with only SPST relays.

My brake module is built so it only creates the braking signal. No relays on the board.

Now, if I take one of the outputs from the K83 with the DPDT relay attached, one pole of the relay can drive a red/green signal or an emergency stop section of track. The other pole can supply either track power or the braking signal to the braking section of the track. Since my relays are independent of the braking signal circuitry, I should be able to take the same output from the braking circuit and attach it to another DPDT relay connected to a second output from the K83 and use it to control the braking area of a second station siding. Since I am talking about alternating trains stopping in two station sidings, in theory, the braking signal would only be used in one true braking section at a time. In other words, one braking signal circuitry to drive two braking areas that are never used at the same time. This would just require less braking signal circuits.

If I still haven't made myself clear, I will try drawing up a sketch.

Robert


Robert,

I think I understand your question about whether you can use one braking module to drive two braking areas.

The complication as I see it is that the locomotive should halt in the braking section of track, and not the stop section. So if you have transition section, braking section, and stop section, then the braking section is where you want your locomotive to stop. And this is where the complication comes in, that you probably don't want your two trains to go again at the same time when the common braking section is given power again. Just a thought, but maybe your layout design might be such that this is not an issue.

Regards,BigGrin
John

Regards,
John
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Offline Johnvr  
#31 Posted : 20 March 2014 21:18:13(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
Pete,

I use this relay for a bunch of different purposes and have gotten tired of hand building boards, so I recently did up a simple design of a PCB for just the relay and terminals and are having some made for me. Hope to have the boards in the next few days. They apparently were made in Germany and they just hit the USPS sorting facility in NJ today. Hope they work!! LOL!! And if I did the design right, I can also use the board for anon-latched DPDT relay by TE Connectivity also.

Robert


Robert,

This is interesting.
So you made up the design layout of the PCB and you found a manufacturer who can make the boards for you ?
Wow !

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline Hackcell  
#32 Posted : 21 March 2014 02:02:53(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I have some questions about braking modules,

I'm planning a decent, real layout (got tired to build on the kitchen table, lol) and implementing a braking module or two would be really helpful for what I do have in mind. However,

1 - The braking module is always on? Meaning, whenever a train crosses over it, the train will stop.
2 - Can the braking module be activated using a switch or a s88 pulse?
3 - Can this braking module be connected to a light signal?

The thing is, in the layout I'm planning, there are a couple of crosses, so I want to stop a train coming from a secondary road if the main road is occupied. If not, the train can go ahead without reducing speed.

Thanks in advance¡¡


Danilo,

Yes, good to get a decent, real layout going !
1 - My braking modules are synchronised with the signal. When signal is green, then locomotive goes straight through at normal speed. When signal is red, the locomotive slows down and stops.
2 - Yes, it can. My signals are activated from the contact track and s88 pulse, but s88 is not necessarily required.
3 - Yes, mine are connected to the 7039 Home signal with semaphore and red/green lights, but can also be connected to light signals.

For your additional question, you can use track occupancy detection to test whether a track section is occupied or not, and set the signal accordingly, so that your trains do not collide at a crossing.

Regards,BigGrin
John



Thank you John, I think I could use 3 or 4 signals huhuhu. Just to have it clear on my mind; I guess that you have something else (switch, etc) in your layout activating the signal, so you don't have to do it manually, right?

Sorry if I ask too much, I'm still in the learning process :-)

Thanks in advance!
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Nielsenr  
#33 Posted : 21 March 2014 05:09:46(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
John,

Let me see if I can explain my operation in a more detailed manner. I use K83s from LDT (I buy them in kit form for about US $20). I then make up a simple relay board using latched DPDT relays. I use the output from the K83 to drive the relay. I buy the latched DPDT relay for about US $2.50. So for US $30, I get a K84 decoder with DPDT relays. Better than the $$ for a Marklin K84 with only SPST relays.

My brake module is built so it only creates the braking signal. No relays on the board.

Now, if I take one of the outputs from the K83 with the DPDT relay attached, one pole of the relay can drive a red/green signal or an emergency stop section of track. The other pole can supply either track power or the braking signal to the braking section of the track. Since my relays are independent of the braking signal circuitry, I should be able to take the same output from the braking circuit and attach it to another DPDT relay connected to a second output from the K83 and use it to control the braking area of a second station siding. Since I am talking about alternating trains stopping in two station sidings, in theory, the braking signal would only be used in one true braking section at a time. In other words, one braking signal circuitry to drive two braking areas that are never used at the same time. This would just require less braking signal circuits.

If I still haven't made myself clear, I will try drawing up a sketch.

Robert


Robert,

I think I understand your question about whether you can use one braking module to drive two braking areas.

The complication as I see it is that the locomotive should halt in the braking section of track, and not the stop section. So if you have transition section, braking section, and stop section, then the braking section is where you want your locomotive to stop. And this is where the complication comes in, that you probably don't want your two trains to go again at the same time when the common braking section is given power again. Just a thought, but maybe your layout design might be such that this is not an issue.

Regards,BigGrin
John

Regards,
John


Hi John,

I don't think you still understand what I am saying, so let me try again. First off, my braking circuitry is similar to the Bogobit Classic Braking Module. It uses a current limiting transistor in the circuitry so no transition track is needed. Just the braking area and a stop section for safety. The stop section could be done away with if you trust your trains to stop in the braking area.

I use LDT K83s with my own latched DPDT relays connected to the output of the K83 to create a K84 (with 2 poles that are switched unlike Marklin's which only has a single pole). I have been hand building these relay boards for a while. So when I looked at the braking module circuitry, I just remove the relay from what is going on the braking circuitry board. All the braking circuitry board is doing is creating the negative DC signal that tells the decoder to slow down to a stop. So I have a PCB with a relay on it with terminals and I have a second PCB that creates a negative DC signal. So in theory, I should be able to feed the braking module output to two different relay boards which are connected to two separate outputs on a K83, with each relay controlling two different track's braking area.

It may take a little "thinking outside of the box" to get the idea of taking the relay out of the braking module and having it separate. Unfortunately I am busy with too many other projects at the moment but when I get some time I will confirm this works.

Robert
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Offline Nielsenr  
#34 Posted : 21 March 2014 05:24:00(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
Pete,

I use this relay for a bunch of different purposes and have gotten tired of hand building boards, so I recently did up a simple design of a PCB for just the relay and terminals and are having some made for me. Hope to have the boards in the next few days. They apparently were made in Germany and they just hit the USPS sorting facility in NJ today. Hope they work!! LOL!! And if I did the design right, I can also use the board for anon-latched DPDT relay by TE Connectivity also.

Robert


Robert,

This is interesting.
So you made up the design layout of the PCB and you found a manufacturer who can make the boards for you ?
Wow !

Regards,BigGrin
John


John,

The PCB that I am having made it just for the latched DPDT relays. As I have stated, I have been hand building relay boards to turn a K83 into a K84 with each output having two switchable contacts. I have also used these relay boards to do hard-wired block control on a client's Lionel O gauge layout I am building. I just got tired of hand building and wiring them. So I found a free PCB design program, laid out how I wanted the relay and terminals positioned, and sent it off to a company to make them for me. The board actually has two relay circuits on it since I tend to use them in pairs. I had 8 mounting holes put on the board so if I just want a single relay board I can cut them in half. After shipping and everything, I think they will run me about $1.80 each. I could also do a board for the circuitry that creates the braking signal, but I don't make them at all any more so I am not sure I will go that route. The toughest part is working with the free PCB design programs ... I can handle a lot of things but these programs baffle me!! LOL!!

As an aside, the pin-out for the relay I am using is identical for a non-latched relay from the same manufacturer. I will use this non-latched relay on my relay PCB to drive a simple hobby signal from a contact track on a simple Marklin layout I am building for another client. As long as the train is on the contact track, the signal will be red. As soon as the train leaves the contact track, the signal will return to green. (This will require a few other components)

Robert
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Offline river6109  
#35 Posted : 24 March 2014 11:36:13(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I have some questions about braking modules,

I'm planning a decent, real layout (got tired to build on the kitchen table, lol) and implementing a braking module or two would be really helpful for what I do have in mind. However,

1 - The braking module is always on? Meaning, whenever a train crosses over it, the train will stop.
2 - Can the braking module be activated using a switch or a s88 pulse?
3 - Can this braking module be connected to a light signal?

The thing is, in the layout I'm planning, there are a couple of crosses, so I want to stop a train coming from a secondary road if the main road is occupied. If not, the train can go ahead without reducing speed.

Thanks in advance¡¡


Danilo,

Yes, good to get a decent, real layout going !
1 - My braking modules are synchronised with the signal. When signal is green, then locomotive goes straight through at normal speed. When signal is red, the locomotive slows down and stops.
2 - Yes, it can. My signals are activated from the contact track and s88 pulse, but s88 is not necessarily required.
3 - Yes, mine are connected to the 7039 Home signal with semaphore and red/green lights, but can also be connected to light signals.

For your additional question, you can use track occupancy detection to test whether a track section is occupied or not, and set the signal accordingly, so that your trains do not collide at a crossing.

Regards,BigGrin
John



Thank you John, I think I could use 3 or 4 signals huhuhu. Just to have it clear on my mind; I guess that you have something else (switch, etc) in your layout activating the signal, so you don't have to do it manually, right?

Sorry if I ask too much, I'm still in the learning process :-)

Thanks in advance!



my braking modules get activated via a switching track and having a single track going into 2 tracks and than again into a single track by placing a switching track in each of these 2 tracks (sidings) they activate the braking module in a reverse mode, a train goes into A track and activated B track and visa versa and when both trains enter the single track again another switching track turns both signals to red and this also means both braking modules are set to the stop mode.

here is the finished product and I did 22 of them, the last thing I will do spray the back of it with clear varnish to keep the soldering points clean and free of corrosion.

This time I've secured the screwed connectors with superglue because the last time I've found by fastening the wires the connector shifted slightly and broke the solder strip on the other side.

regards.,

John
river6109 attached the following image(s):
braking module.JPG
braking module 1.JPG
braking module 4.JPG
braking module 3.JPG
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#36 Posted : 24 March 2014 13:09:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Thomas, be careful when copying the back of it, any mistake you make you could ruin the relays, the PCB I bought many years ago from Dick Smith which is only available in Australia. measurements 300mm x 150 mm and I get 6 out of each sheet. you should count the holes vertical to make sure all wires and components fit in nicely onto the board. it took a bit of time to sort out all the connections and put them into the right spot. you also can see where the relays are soldered onto the last pin on each side (right hand side of picture) on both relays there is no isolation from one side to the other., the relays have to face the right way, the diodes and the round tower also (one direction only).
I personally think you're taking a risk copying them and how many are you intend to make ?

regards.,

John

P.S take note: the first third and fourth picture I have deleted and replaced it with one correct one.

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline pschloes  
#37 Posted : 24 April 2014 21:49:53(UTC)
pschloes

United States   
Joined: 01/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 14
Hi,
I'm a bit stuck on my home made braking module....mostly due to the lack of availability of the same relay as shown in Huib Maaskant's original schematic... the relay I have has a different pin out configuration. I am attempting to control the relay/brake module using the m83 but the relay stays in the breaking mode & does not seem to switch. Below is the diagram for my relay:


I have the yellow wire (middle terminal) attached to pins 10 & 1 (with a diode between the m83 center terminal and the pins) and one of the "blue" wires (outer terminals on the m83) attached to pin 5 and the other to pin 6. However the m83 does not seem to activate the relay... any thoughts?
pete
pschloes attached the following image(s):
Screen Shot 2014-04-24 at 1.27.29 PM.png
Offline river6109  
#38 Posted : 25 April 2014 00:58:46(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I cant help you 100% but the wire configuration you've shown, I think it is wrong. you will find on the top of the relay is a line across which if I remember correctly is between 5-6 therefore 5-6 is connected whereas 1-10 is not, I have to look at my schematic.


Warning

do not copy this module


the braking module I've shown has a fault in it. I've added a wire that shouldn't be there , when you look at the braking module left hand top connector, there is a wire attached to the 3rd bottom connector going to the 2nd relay first pin. this wire causes a electrical connection between the 3rd top hand left connection and the top right hand 3rd connector on the right connection.

the correct relay photo will be shown shortly

regards,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline Nielsenr  
#39 Posted : 25 April 2014 07:23:07(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: pschloes Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
I'm a bit stuck on my home made braking module....mostly due to the lack of availability of the same relay as shown in Huib Maaskant's original schematic... the relay I have has a different pin out configuration. I am attempting to control the relay/brake module using the m83 but the relay stays in the breaking mode & does not seem to switch. Below is the diagram for my relay:


I have the yellow wire (middle terminal) attached to pins 10 & 1 (with a diode between the m83 center terminal and the pins) and one of the "blue" wires (outer terminals on the m83) attached to pin 5 and the other to pin 6. However the m83 does not seem to activate the relay... any thoughts?
pete


Pete,

I use a similar relay. I connect it just the way you did, but I do not use a diode between the K83 and the pins. The relay I use is an TE Connectivity Axicom FP2 relay, D3066. It works fine. Try taking the diode out and see what happens.

Robert
Offline pschloes  
#40 Posted : 25 April 2014 21:58:11(UTC)
pschloes

United States   
Joined: 01/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 14
Thanks Robert, that did the trick & now it works....
On a related note, I now am trying to adjust the braking delay on a couple fairly recent mfx locomotives so that they come to a stop at the proper place when the braking module is active. Changing the braking delay in the CS2 does not seem to do anything as far as stopping position... any thoughts?
Thanks again!
Pete
PS I am using a transition section and the two trains I have used so far are a 37906 and a 39803

Edited by user 26 April 2014 16:10:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Nielsenr  
#41 Posted : 26 April 2014 00:00:38(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: pschloes Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Robert, that did the trick & now it works....
On a related note, I now am trying to adjust the braking delay on a couple fairly recent mfx locomotives so that they come to a stop at the proper place when the braking module is active. Changing the braking delay in the CS2 does not seem to do anything as far as stopping position... any thoughts?
Thanks again!
Pete


I haven't played around with it for a while, but as I remember, changing the braking delay on the CS2 screens adjusts the way the CS2 software manages braking. If you took the loco to another layout, it would perform differently. To change them within the decoder, you need to adjust the CVs for braking (and acceleration if needed). Even modifying the CVs will still have a different braking distance if you change the operating speed of the loco. I always had a specific speed setting I would use for a loco and then would adjust the CV for that speed setting so it would stop where I wanted it to. I would also set the braking delay on the CS2 screen to 0.

I assume you know how to adjust the CVs.

Hope this helps ...

Robert
Offline Johnvr  
#42 Posted : 27 April 2014 22:34:06(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi all,

I coached my friend Terry to make some Braking Modules following the same design which I had.
He made 8 of them, and during the last week we installed them on his layout.

What a difference it makes ! Running trains with automation, stopping at the end of the platforms !
Wow Flapper Flapper Flapper Flapper

Regards,BigGrin
John
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Offline mmervine  
#43 Posted : 26 January 2015 13:03:16(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,883
Location: Keene, NH
Has anyone in the us found a source for the 24V relay?
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
Offline Nielsenr  
#44 Posted : 26 January 2015 17:04:48(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: mmervine Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone in the us found a source for the 24V relay?


Mark,

Not sure exactly what kind of 24v relay you are looking for.

Here is a 24v bistable, single coil relay:

http://www.newark.com/te-connec...-24vdc-2a-tht/dp/07H3855


And here is a 24v bistable, dual coil relay:

http://www.newark.com/te-connec...;categoryId=800000005437

Hope this helps ...

Robert

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Offline justin182  
#45 Posted : 27 January 2015 14:46:29(UTC)
justin182

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2003(UTC)
Posts: 111
I just started a similar project myself. I'm using a combination of Huib's brake module as well as the classic brake module from bogobit. Unfortunately they don't ship to the US, but here's their wiring diagram - http://www.bogobit.de/bremsmodu...ndard_1_1_schaltplan.pdf

I found a site called Mouser Electronics out of Texas for the parts, and of course, buying in bulk saves. These are Mouser part numbers.

  • Relay 12V latching bistable - 80-EC2-12TNU - $2.00 each
  • Diode - 512-1N4002 - $0.291 each
  • Capacitor 220uF - 667-EEU-FC1V221L - $0.052 each
  • Resistor 1.5KOhm - CFR16J1K5 - $$0.093 each
  • Bridge Rectifer - 625-B40C1500G-E4 - $0.45 each


That works out to under $5 per brake module and lots of time soldering!
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Offline Tower  
#46 Posted : 08 March 2015 14:17:31(UTC)
Tower


Joined: 12/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 169
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Hi Guys,

Sorry but I am a bit late to this topic. I have posted my simplified design (Based 90% on Huib Maaskant's original design) before.

UserPostedImage
This unit brakes four tracks, switched manually or via a k83 and brakes in both directions.

I did away with the emergency stop section and replaced it with a isolation section at either end in order to do this, it has the disadvantage that trains can "run" through a signal if not properly programmed, but then again, being able to brake in both directions is great.

With the simpler design I can run Viessmann 4011 signals from the single relay as well.

Cost: Less than 5 USD for all four tracks!
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Offline mmervine  
#47 Posted : 08 November 2017 08:22:04(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,883
Location: Keene, NH
I finally had the chance to visit with John and Terry yesterday and see their layouts with the brake modules in service. With John's CS2, he can use the route feature to run the layout automatically for about 30 minutes before the cycle repeats itself. Absolutely fantastic!

I will definitely be building some of these for my layout!!!
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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Offline river6109  
#48 Posted : 08 November 2017 12:47:21(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
My braking modules are identical to Märklin braking modules (1st issue), with all my ESU sound decoders/lokpilots I have to turn of the DC functrion on my lokprogrammer otherwise the decoder doesn't recognize the braking module.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline mmervine  
#49 Posted : 08 November 2017 19:42:29(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,883
Location: Keene, NH
Hmm...we tested with a BR85 that had a Loksound 4.0 installed and it worked perfectly.
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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