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Offline H0  
#1 Posted : 08 February 2014 10:16:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

In the 1988/89 Yearbook, we find a circle with five stars in it and Märklin explain the meaning of each star:

  1. The new motor
  2. Speed control
  3. Preselecting the speed
  4. Controlled slow speed running
  5. Anti-wheel slip control


In the locomotive section of the catalogue you find a diagram for each of these stars.

On pages 2 and 3 they explain each star in text:

1 The five-pole, high-efficiency motor provides very high torque over the entire speed range and has considerable power reserves at its disposal. It runs with absolute quietness and smoothness even at slow speeds and with a load.

2 To a large extent the control electronics compensate for the effects of changing loads on the operating characteristics. The speed always remains in the desired range on ascending and descending grades, sharp curves or in concentrated areas of turnouts, with heavy trains or when pushing cars.

3 The desired maximum speed for any locomotive can be adjusted infinitely according to the type of locomotive and its planned use. The range of adjustment includes the exact prototypical scale speed as well as the usual speed for toy trains.

4 The specially adjusted control for slow speed running allows the locomotive to start up smoothly from a standing position and to accelerate prototypically up to the desired speed. Extreme slow running or switching manoeuvres are thereby possible.

5 The control for tractive effort consistently adjusts the propulsion system's power output to the operating situation. This keeps the locomotive's powered wheels from slipping as it approaches maximum load. The locomotive's maximum tractive effort is increased considerably. Moreover the motor and electronics are safe-guarded against overloads.


In the 1989/90 Yearbook there is only a short introduction: "In the 5 star H0 locomotives a new generation of electronics monitors the entire propulsion system, the heart of which is a five-pole, high-efficiency motor. [...]"


One question remains unanswered: do the five five-stars arranged in a circle symbolize a five-pole motor? I don't know.
But right from the start this symbol was used for (and with) the then new five-pole motor. For me this symbol always stood for a five-pole motor, with the five stars symbolizing the five advantages of the new propulsion and at the same time standing for the five poles.

The motor still had a field-coil, but still they called it high-efficiency. So one has to assume the change from three-pole to five-pole makes the difference between "standard" and "high-efficiency".

The also used the five-star symbol for the 3722 where the text clearly indicates it has a three-pole motor. AFAIK this is the only 37xx loco with a three-pole motor.
Since 2011 they use the five-star symbol for three-pole motors without mentioning the count of poles in the description.
Nowadays they even tell us that five-pole motors do not have enough torque to be put into the boiler of a steamer.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 08 February 2014 10:29:19(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Tom,

this how I and I assume a lot of other Märklin fans associated the 5 star with a 5 pole motor, although I've never looked close enough to realize it was 5 stars.
the 3700-37000 series with the symbol always indicated to me I'm buying a loco with a 5 pole motor, except as you've mentioned, the 3722.

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 08 February 2014 10:33:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


In the 1989/90 Yearbook there is only a short introduction: "In the 5 star H0 locomotives a new generation of electronics monitors the entire propulsion system, the heart of which is a five-pole, high-efficiency motor. [...]"


One question remains unanswered: do the five five-stars arranged in a circle symbolize a five-pole motor? I don't know.
But right from the start this symbol was used for (and with) the then new five-pole motor. For me this symbol always stood for a five-pole motor, with the five stars symbolizing the five advantages of the new propulsion and at the same time standing for the five poles.




5 pole motor is the heart of 5 stars.
If Märklin did introduced 3 pole motor,the symbol present 3 stars.
What it makes an difference is decoder.
Serie 35.. did had an new electronics PCP that worked awful and terrible with the new 5 pole motor.
It was only short carrier for serie 35..
Later Märklin did start an new digital decoder name c90 and become succesful with the 5 pole motor!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline kweekalot  
#4 Posted : 08 February 2014 10:43:24(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,435
Location: Holland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Nowadays they even tell us that five-pole motors do not have enough torque to be put into the boiler of a steamer.

Tom,
In (the German spoken) Marklin TV 64 Wolfrad Bachle tells us: "Especially in the steam loco's it is very difficult to use the 5-pole motor due to the lack of space, especially through the thick walls of the die-cast metal housing of these loco's".

So I 'lack of Space', not 'lack of torque'.

Marco
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Offline steventrain  
#5 Posted : 08 February 2014 11:14:18(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Five Poles locos from 1988/1989.

3518 BR18.4
3511 K.W.St.E (Late BR18.1)
3504 BR80
3558 E103 red
3553 E120 red

All above are analog.

First digital 5-poles in 1991/92 catalogue.

3704 BR80
3790 DB 011
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Gregor  
#6 Posted : 08 February 2014 11:19:47(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Netherlands
I don't understand this space aspect. Almost every model having an old 3 pole DCM motor can be converted to 5 pole using the 60901 kit. No difference in physical space. Or is the new 3 pole truly smaller than the old 3 pole ?

Best regards,
Gregor
Offline steventrain  
#7 Posted : 08 February 2014 11:32:41(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Nowadays they even tell us that five-pole motors do not have enough torque to be put into the boiler of a steamer.

Tom,
In (the German spoken) Marklin TV 64 Wolfrad Bachle tells us: "Especially in the steam loco's it is very difficult to use the 5-pole motor due to the lack of space, especially through the thick walls of the die-cast metal housing of these loco's".

So I 'lack of Space', not 'lack of torque'.

Marco


But Hornby/Bachmann did fit all five poles 'can' motor in all 8 ro 21 pins analog or digital locos.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 08 February 2014 11:42:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
In (the German spoken) Marklin TV 64 Wolfrad Bächle tells us: "Especially in the steam loco's it is very difficult to use the 5-pole motor due to the lack of space, especially through the thick walls of the die-cast metal housing of these loco's".

So I 'lack of Space', not 'lack of torque'.
The message between the lines is: a standard five-pole motor that fits does not have enough torque, a standard five-pole motor with enough torque does not fit - a motor with bell-shaped armature does not fit budget-wise.


For decades the motor was in the engineer's cab. Yes, it's better to have it in the boiler.
All Z scale locos have five-pole motors. Many N scale locos have five-pole motors. Some slow H0 locos even come with N scale motors.

Different compromises are possible: cheap three-pole motor in the boiler, cheap five-pole motor in the cab, expensive five-pole motor in the boiler, motor in the tender, and many other options.
2011 it was possible to put an excellent motor into the boiler - an excellent motor that performs well even with Märklin mfx decoders.
I don't believe that in 2014 it is impossible to put an excellent motor into the boiler. Only economic reasons prevent that, not technical reasons.

The new 37923 with three-pole motor has the same RRP as the older 37925 which had a motor with bell-shaped armature. Same downgrade with BR 45.
No reports about the 37923 yet, but users report that the new BR 45 performs worse than the older models (and as usual, some are still satisfied with the new loco and some are not).

Herr Bächle also tells us they take customer satisfaction very serious.
Poor Märklin: not even for the Big Boy (RRP € 800 or € 850) they can still afford motors with bell-shaped armatures.

Quote:
Stopped by a diner and the blond behind the counter
Asked if she could help in any way
I could tell by her smile, her number I could dial
If I was in the need of company
I asked her for some Java
Instead she brought a cup of hickory

Read more: Rick Danko - Java Blues Lyrics | MetroLyrics


I got the Märklin blues. I still want Java, not coffee-flavoured sugar or hickory.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jeehring  
#9 Posted : 08 February 2014 11:49:16(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

...(..)...Nowadays they even tell us that five-pole motors do not have enough torque to be put into the boiler of a steamer.


Where ?
On Marklin TV interview I only read that they have said that "there is not enough room into the boiler for a 5 poles motor"...which is a pure heresy...
(well, torque often dépends indirectly on the size of the motor too...)

Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 08 February 2014 11:53:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

...(..)...Nowadays they even tell us that five-pole motors do not have enough torque to be put into the boiler of a steamer.
Where ?
On Marklin TV interview I only read that they have said that "5 poles motors are too big to be put into the boiler"...which is a pure heresy...
See my reply to Marco.

This thread is not meant to repeat the complete discussion about three-pole motors.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#11 Posted : 08 February 2014 12:37:36(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
Thanks for taking the time to research it.

This deleted post is restored by moderator.
Dear Mulldog Lemon, restoring your deleted posts is a lot of work for the moderators, so please stop deleting your posts !!

Edited by moderator 29 March 2014 01:04:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline biedmatt  
#12 Posted : 08 February 2014 13:30:19(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Thanks Tom.
So the five stars means several things, I had forgotten that, but one of the five stars represented a five pole motor. The $64,000 question: When did Marklin change the published meaning for this icon? Is it a recent development when they decided to start sneaking three pole motors into their loks? Yes, I will stand behind that word "sneaking". They have told us every motor development over the past several decades. All with great fan fair as each new motor is explained in detail in the catalog. But not a word officially about the three pole motor. Or did the meaning change some time before we started seeing three pole motors?

I'm with you Tom. I will continue to work my want list of pre 2011 Marklin items and wait for future developments. I can't really support this company at this time. Are the same dummkopfs that broke the company twice before making these decisions?

http://idioms.thefreedic...thousand-dollar+question
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 08 February 2014 14:11:07(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Five Poles locos from 1988/1989.

3518 BR18.4
3511 K.W.St.E (Late BR18.1)
3504 BR80
3558 E103 red
3553 E120 red

All above are analog.

First digital 5-poles in 1991/92 catalogue.

3704 BR80
3790 DB 011


Stephen,

3526 NS 1657
3528 BR E 91
3530 SBB Re 4/IV
3556 SBB Ce 5/6
3546 BR V 36
3581 BR 221 beige
3582 BR 221 red

first digital high efficiency motors 1992

3709 BR 85
3791 BR 03.10
3739 SBB Ae 6/6
3748 BR E 70
3757 BR BR 103
3760 SBB Re 460
3768 BR 118

the first 3700 series came out in 1985-1989 transparent housing locos
3514 C K.W.St.E black
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline biedmatt  
#14 Posted : 08 February 2014 14:20:44(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I was going to wade through my catalogs to try and determine when the meaning of this icon changed, but does it really matter? Tom has demonstrated my recollection was correct, thanks Tom. What does matter is the here and now. Marklin have deceived us. We used to get great loads of data telling us of motor developments. Now we get silently changed icon descriptions (cue that "fine print" joke now) and motors substandard to what they themselves have told us we should want. Instead of catalog pages telling us of a three pole motor, we get replies to individual emails, excuses really, telling us why they can no longer put good motors in their lokos. I earn my customer's loyalty every day. Marklin needs to do the same.

I apologize if my rant is off topic. I do not apologize for it's content.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Janne75  
#15 Posted : 08 February 2014 15:06:15(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi,

I will also buy older Märklin in the future. And if I don't I want to be sure there is a DCM motor or similar oldstyle motor. I have actually nothing against these new can motors and they even seems to be quite durable. But I would also like to know more about these can motors and why Märklin have choosen them now instead of the previous ones? I know it must be the economical reasons, but then these newer models can not be more expensive or same price than the previous ones of the otherwise same models. Price comparing can be done in my opinion within some years, but we can not compare current prices and prices from 5 or 10 years ago as World is changing. Märklin has many expenses when they are producing more and more items in Hungary. But we (customers) should not pay all these expenses in (too) high item prices.

German eBay is my good friend and my enemy. At the moment I have bought a way too much items from there, but I will continue using it after a bying pause from there. I have to pay some other "deals" first. Almost every item can be found in auctions and items new or like new with great prices really.

Regards,
Janne

Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Danlake  
#16 Posted : 08 February 2014 16:35:38(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
In the new catalogues there is actually a new symbol for locomotives with 5 pole motor (looks like a winding with 5 poles – not star).

However I don’t see it being used much as most loco will be described with the symbol with the 5 stars next to the cylinders shape. The problem with the description for this symbols is the existing of “or” in the text. Could be this or could be that...

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 08 February 2014 16:55:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
There is a symbol for five-pole motors - used for Z gauge only.

See also:
http://archiv.maerklin.d...ten.html?sCountryCode=en
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline TimR  
#18 Posted : 08 February 2014 17:49:34(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Thanks Tom,
for informing us the meaning of the 5-star symbol in its original state......

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

2011 it was possible to put an excellent motor into the boiler - an excellent motor that performs well even with Märklin mfx decoders.
I don't believe that in 2014 it is impossible to put an excellent motor into the boiler. Only economic reasons prevent that, not technical reasons.


Well, it's actually made good economic reasons for us too.
El-cheapo motor equals not a dime spend on Marklin loco.
If it's good for their wallet, it's good for ours too...Smile
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline jeehring  
#19 Posted : 08 February 2014 17:49:48(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

...(....)...? I know it must be the economical reasons, ...(...)...Regards,
Janne



Everything smell "cost optimization"
look at how many ERA I/ ERA II green Prussian/DRG Loks we have on 2014....

One penny is a penny !
About motors, for instance 100 000 units : saving 10 E for each unit = 1 million E more for the Marklin owner .

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Offline biedmatt  
#20 Posted : 08 February 2014 17:55:33(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post

If it's good for their wallet, it's good for ours too...Smile


LOL LOL LOL

Normally I would just "like" a quote such as this and save bandwidth, but it was just too funny not to directly comment.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline steventrain  
#21 Posted : 08 February 2014 19:19:33(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
I have the analog 3511 mint/boxed with five red star on box.

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UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 08 February 2014 19:39:49(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Stephen, thanks for bringing this topic back to it's original intention.

Guys, notice there is no picture of 5 stars in a circle here, just 5 stars!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline biedmatt  
#23 Posted : 08 February 2014 20:05:15(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Stephen, thanks for bringing this topic back to it's original intention.

Guys, notice there is no picture of 5 stars in a circle here, just 5 stars!


Huh?

Please see post 1. The discussion is the icon created in 1988, five stars in a circle. Again, please see post one. Tom states "...we find a circle with five stars in it..." So Marklin put five stars in a row on the box of 3511. Do we have a meaning handed down from Marklin telling us what the five stars in a row signifies? The five star circle only arranged in a linear manner? I am not going to make that jump since what all these pretty pictures really mean is the point of this whole thread. Tom posted Marklin's own description from 1988 telling us what each star in that five star circle meant. One, is a five pole motor. Marklin's words. Not mine, not Tom's. Now that meaning has quietly changed as Ray has shown in a different thread. Why the change? Aren't icon's by definition objects that endure time? Why not make a new icon for these lokos with three pole motors?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline RayF  
#24 Posted : 08 February 2014 20:12:04(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Just pointing out that this is yet another representation!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Janne75  
#25 Posted : 08 February 2014 20:40:25(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi,

For me those five stars in the circle OR in a row means the very same thing from that time... five pole motor. But was there in that 3511 model actually a five pole motor? I don't know really how many poles there is... Wasn't it the very first ones with Faulhaber "not cost cutted" motors? RollEyes

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline TimR  
#26 Posted : 08 February 2014 20:45:40(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
I have the analog 3511 mint/boxed with five red star on box.


Okay, I've just checked the boxes of my locos..

It doesn't seem that Marklin had a habit of putting the motor symbols on the box.

Pre-2006, the Sinus Re460s doesn't even have a Sinus wave symbol on the outside.

My 37321 - which is the newest DCM model I have, also had no 5-star HEP symbol on the outside.

The only models that have motor symbols written on the box are the ones from SDS era.

"Sinus wave" symbol, with 'Soft Drive' written in it.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline Webmaster  
#27 Posted : 08 February 2014 21:05:12(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
As I mentioned in another topic....
Quote:

This (the 3511) was what made me come back to the hobby when I bought it used in the mid-90's... This model set a new
standard of how Märklin "should be" for me... I had bought a 3000 starter set and brought my old trains from my childhood
for my son to play with, and I thought it was fun to see the trains run. After some additions to my son's roster, I bought the
3511 + a 4228 Rheingold set for myself and then I was hooked myself by the quality & silent running of the 3511...
Never looked back since then, and when I discovered Digital in 1996-1997 (bought a 6021 + 6051) I was really hooked...
This lead to this site being put online as an experiment in late 1998, and the forum start in 2001...


When we discuss this we must have the facts clear:

Classic oldie Märklin 3-pole "Allstrom" FCM motor - 2 common versions - SFCM (Small Flat Commutator Motor) as eg 3000, and LFCM (Large FCM.....) as in eg the 3067 and such.

Märklin DCM (Drum Commutator Motor), new in the 80:s - 3 common versions - 3-pole analog AC version, 5-pole analog AC version, and the one digital drivers are accustomed to - the 5-pole DC version.

The "other" DC (Direct Current) motors - Faulhaber, Maxxon, and the "new" motor... These need electronics to run on a classic AC layout.


The confusion is about the "5 stars" vs 5-pole motors.

The 3511 is "five stars" by any book regarding performance in analog AC, even if it has a motor with a central magnet (2-poles) and a coil basket rotating around it. This was achieved with a high revving motor, good electronics and a gearbox to reduce the revvs to the wheels.

The other "five star" in the 90:s effort from Märklin was the 5-pole DCM analog motor with some electronics. This was not as successful since the motors were powerless (yet smooth) and needed a lot of current compared to normal 3-pole DCM's in normal analog operation... However, the did work well with the 6600 PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) controller. I have a 3518 18.3 so I know what I'm talking about - also by experience... One popular thing in the 90's was to replace the DCM 3-pole with the 5-pole analog in locos with Delta decoders, it made them run smoother - but they also lost pulling power....

Then came the 6090 digital decoder and the 5-pole DCM DC motor - A new Era in motoring started and made digital "better" than analog, and that is what many associate with the five stars. Since so many digital locos with the 5-pole DCM have been produced over the years, the 5-pole DCM DC motor became the "five star" symbol equivalent of great performance to all of us.

Later motors as C-Sine, Compact C-sine, SDS and the various other DC motors can also fall into the "Five star" category even if they do not have 5-pole commutators.

It was all started with the Faulhaber motor in the 3511 (the cheaper 3311 did not have the same excellent electronics, but the same motor) and performance expectations are nowadays both powerful & silent motors. We have had power already from the LFCM motors earlier since the "dinosaur age", but not the silence.

The thing I worry about most is serviceability... With the classic SFCM, LFCM & DCM motors, it's easy to have spare parts as brushes at home and they are easily maintainable even if you have to dissect them... With other motors, it seems like replacing them is the only option....
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline jeehring  
#28 Posted : 08 February 2014 21:34:07(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
3 poles were AC
Five pôles were DC with permanent magnet...
Means two different technologies. Not necessarly a matter of number of pôles....
However, are you sure that 5 pôles were more power consuming ?....also due to electronics ...
Offline Webmaster  
#29 Posted : 08 February 2014 21:42:54(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Sorry Roland, you had 5-pole AC motors for about 1-2 years too... The 35xx series (except the Faulhaber equipped one(s))...

As I said, I have one of them - The 3518....

Edit:
I actually also have the 3528 (not on Steventrains list, MHI model), but that was immediately converted to 6090 + the DC 5-pole DCM motor since my experience of the analog DCM 5-pole motor was not the best...

The analog 5-pole rotor has much lower impedance than the rotor used in the DC version of the motor ("6090"-type), so yes - much more current consumption...
We have talked about blue & green versions of the 5-pole rotor many years ago in various forums & groups...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Janne75  
#30 Posted : 08 February 2014 23:29:51(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Juhan,

Thank you very much for writing such a long and well described text about motors. Well done! ThumpUp

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline 3rail4life  
#31 Posted : 09 February 2014 00:32:23(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Hi All,

Great topic, brings back a lot of memories... When I first got back into Märklin as an adult back in the mid 1980's digital was too new, I still thought analog was the way to go. I fell for the 5 star hype big time, bought many 5* locos and for the DCM locos that didn't have it I bought these:

7180 5 star conversion kit

my first conversions were analog, it took another ten years before I switched over to the darkside...

Gordon
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Offline Marius in Africa  
#32 Posted : 09 February 2014 06:14:03(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 419
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
..........................
The "other" DC (Direct Current) motors - Faulhaber, Maxxon, and the "new" motor... These need electronics to run on a classic AC layout.
...


If I may go a little of topic here:

My understanding is that the "new / current" three pole Marklin motor is made in China. My assumption is that, true to the Chinese manufacturing culture, the current Marklin three pole motor is very likely a copy of an existing motor from another manufacturer. Do you have any information of the "source motor" being copied?

Where do Faulhaber and Maxxon manufacture their 5 pole motors?

Regards

Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
Offline RayF  
#33 Posted : 09 February 2014 13:09:46(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Marius in Africa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
..........................
The "other" DC (Direct Current) motors - Faulhaber, Maxxon, and the "new" motor... These need electronics to run on a classic AC layout.
...


If I may go a little of topic here:

My understanding is that the "new / current" three pole Marklin motor is made in China. My assumption is that, true to the Chinese manufacturing culture, the current Marklin three pole motor is very likely a copy of an existing motor from another manufacturer. Do you have any information of the "source motor" being copied?

Where do Faulhaber and Maxxon manufacture their 5 pole motors?

Regards



Hi Marius,

I have yet to see a reliable source that says the motors are made in China. As far as I can tell this is just speculation.

The motors look quite professionally made, and quite different from the cheaper motors installed in the Hobby locos like the TRAXX and ER20 diesels.

Apart from that I don't know anything else about their provenance.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline river6109  
#34 Posted : 09 February 2014 14:05:04(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

For me those five stars in the circle OR in a row means the very same thing from that time... five pole motor. But was there in that 3511 model actually a five pole motor? I don't know really how many poles there is... Wasn't it the very first ones with Faulhaber "not cost cutted" motors? RollEyes

Regards,
Janne


Janne yes there was a 5 pole motor in it and again one can assume the 3500 series may have highlighted the fact with the number 5
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline river6109  
#35 Posted : 09 February 2014 14:08:42(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Juhan

I've completed the list of series 3500 locomotives in an earlier post.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Webmaster  
#36 Posted : 09 February 2014 19:24:05(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Thanks Gordon for showing the 7180 conversion kit, the analog predecessor to the digital 6090-kits that came a couple of years later.

However, I would never had bought these since my experiences with the 5-pole analog motor was not the best, and I discovered Digital... Wink
I did however buy some of the rotors themselves to put into Delta locos for smoother running, but the standard DCM motor became too powerless with them...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline steventrain  
#37 Posted : 09 February 2014 20:43:27(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Some 7180 still on ebay, Price from 24 euro each.

http://www.ebay.de/sch/i...in+7180&_sacat=22128
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline 3rail4life  
#38 Posted : 09 February 2014 20:49:16(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Gordon for showing the 7180 conversion kit, the analog predecessor to the digital 6090-kits that came a couple of years later.

However, I would never had bought these since my experiences with the 5-pole analog motor was not the best, and I discovered Digital... Wink
I did however buy some of the rotors themselves to put into Delta locos for smoother running, but the standard DCM motor became too powerless with them...


I liked the analog five stars but never really ran them enough to experience their limitations. Shortly after acquiring my 5* locos and kits I had to dismantle my layout to make room for our children and by the time we started running trains again the 60901 era was upon us and we never looked back...

Offline river6109  
#39 Posted : 15 February 2014 10:44:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi,

I've received an answer from Märklin today from Frank Mayer, Customer service Dept. and there is nothing new we already knew except the 3 pole motor has the same characteristics as the 5 pol motor, my question is why change it from 5 pol to 3 pol and apparently there aren't any benefits associated with and why change the bell shaped motor for a 3 pol motor. so I would like to hear what his answer is to these questions. I also queried the silence regarding the new 3 pol motor and why wasn't it announced like any other new development as he indicated in his answer: the new 3 pole motor has the same characteristics as a 5ole motor but this new development wasn't available 20 years ago so I asked the question if it was a new development why wasn't it announced like all other new developments in the past or is it because the motor is being produced in China and therefore the new development was to get a cheaper motor. I've also mentioned a lot of Märklin buyers are a bit comprehensive about the latest locos with a hefty price tag and for some unknown reason(s) have been left in the dark about this new motor and I suggested why not make an announcement to share with us the data and other characteristics about the new motor and lay any unnecessary suspicions to rest.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Marius in Africa  
#40 Posted : 16 February 2014 11:25:44(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 419
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
..........answer from Märklin today from Frank Mayer,....................the 3 pole motor has the same characteristics as the 5 pol motor...................John


Really Herr Mayer! If i choose to believe that I am one of two things, stupid or naïve. I am neither, so Marklin can continue down the track they chose!

Regards

Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
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Offline TimR  
#41 Posted : 16 February 2014 12:17:41(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
....his answer: the new 3 pole motor has the same characteristics as a 5ole motor but this new development wasn't available 20 years ago so I asked the question if it was a new development why wasn't it announced like all other new developments in the past or is it because the motor is being produced in China and therefore the new development was to get a cheaper motor.


Your question does make sense.

In other words, what Frank Mayer (representing Marklin) said can be interpreted this way:

Frank Mayer, Marklin wrote:

All of our motor development in the past 20 years has been pointless... They're just plain rubbish!
You shouldn't believe all of our great advertisements and announcements stating how great those Faulhabers, Maxxons, or Sinus motors were.

Our engineers are idiots to have put all those expensive motors in our model!
They should've done nothing, save money, and wait for 20 years......

.... because our new cheaper 3-pole motor that provide exactly the same benefits.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline river6109  
#42 Posted : 22 February 2014 10:34:14(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I have received an email from Märklin and if you think they are going to change anything think again or forget about it, they are overwhelmingly happy with the new type motor and this is pretty much in a nutshell. any rumors going around has no foundations,

here is the German answer:

bitte beachten Sie:
please take note:

1. Die Anzahl der 5 Sterne hatte noch nie etwas mit der Anzahl an Polen der Anker zu tun.
the number of stars had never anything to do with the number of poles on the armature

2. Wir haben nie behauptet, dass der heutige Motor 5 Pole besitzt.
We never stated that the current motor is 5 pole

3. Wir lassen uns nicht von überholten Vorurteilen leiten. Wichtig für uns ist, dass ein Motor unsere umfangreichen Tests besteht und in allen Kriterien dabei brilliert. Der neue Motor hat all diese Anforderungen mit Bravour bestanden.
We will not change our minds because of repeated unfounded rumours, for us, one thing is important that the motor has proved all its tests and the outcome was brilliant and the new motor showed all characteristics of an outstanding performance.

4. Unsere Kundenbefragung hat ergeben, dass aktuell nur eine sehr kleine Gruppe an Kunden hier sehr lautstark gegen den neuen Motor auftritt. Leider müssen wir auch feststellen, dass wir hier mit Fakten nicht weiterkommen. Die absolute Mehrheit unserer Kunden lässt sich aber lieber von dem eigenen Empfinden leiten und ist mit dme Ergebnis nach unserer Erfahrung sehr zufrieden.
Our customer service survey showed its only a small group of people who have expressed their disapproval of this motor and we have established, unfortunately regardless about the facts we don't seem to get anywhere to convince their imbedded opinions und we have been very satisfied by our experiences.

Der bisherige 5-polige Motor bedarf eines mehrstufigen Getriebes, was jedoch prinzipbedingt zu einem höheren Geräuschpegel führt. Dieses Manko stellt bei der Mehrheit unserer Kunden heute das größere Problem dar. Daher haben wir mit mehr Kritik an dem früheren Antriebskonzept (z.B. in 37078) zu kämpfen als mit kritischen Äußerungen in der überwiegenden Anzahl unserer Kunden über den neuen Antrieb.
The current 5 pole motor had a multi gear arrangement which in turn created a higher noise level and this noise level many modelers complained about it and our task was to comply and respond to these complaints rather than the current criticism from customers about the new motor

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Ihr Märklin Kundenberater
Frank Mayer

Gebr. Märklin & Cie. GmbH
Kundenservice
Postfach 960
D-73009 Göppingen
Telefon Inland 09001 608222
Ausland +49 7161 608222
Telefax +49 7161 608225
E-Mail: Service@maerklin.de
Internet: www.maerklin.de

so in a nut shell, its not the motor, one thing they haven't answered have they got problem with the decoder(s) compatibility.

plus he hasn't replied why the secrecy where as before any new motor was highlighted as an innovation.

looks like they must have had some complaints, which they regard purely as rumors and on the other hand I've never heard Märklin or any other manufacturer admitting there is something wrong (specially in the car industry unless someone dies).

I've had my 2 cents and I personally will most probably not be buying any new locos anyhow, not because of the motor but in general, I've got enough what I've got and I'm not changing the motor again to gain a quieter running characteristic.

In the long run it is definitely a better way to go to get away from gear ratio to a cardan shaft and have all axles powered, Roco has this done this for years. I would also assume making up the whole chassis or motor block would be less complicated and they may use motors directly connected to the bogy(ies) and I've already seen one prototype of such an arrangement.


regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline Markus Schild  
#43 Posted : 22 February 2014 10:54:31(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Dear Mr. Mayer,

Please remember what you published in 1988 ( 193 61 - Rk 01 88 ju ):

UserPostedImage

yellow: Five - pole high performance motor.


Edit found the English version:
UserPostedImage


Regards

Markus
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Offline Janne75  
#44 Posted : 22 February 2014 11:18:59(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Thanks Markus for that reminder. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with their new motors, but their Mfx decoders don't work well together in all their models with them. Some are better than other ones.

It must be necessary for the manufacturer to get rid of the gears as locomotives with sounds have many times too noisy transmission.

But as there is also noise from the wheels and track in my opinion gear noise is not a problem. I will buy now older models for a while and they have not as great sounds + have gears. This is not a problem for me. I like C-Sinus, SDS and 5-pole DCM motors. I want to try that ball bearing modification to some of my DCM motors and if I am happy I will later do it for all of my DCM motor equipped locomotives.

New Märklin model prices are not always in line what you will actually get. And yes I know about Mfx+ and other new features, but all too pricey models don't have Mfx+.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline river6109  
#45 Posted : 22 February 2014 11:36:41(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Markus for that reminder. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with their new motors, but their Mfx decoders don't work well together in all their models with them. Some are better than other ones.

It must be necessary for the manufacturer to get rid of the gears as locomotives with sounds have many times too noisy transmission.

But as there is also noise from the wheels and track in my opinion gear noise is not a problem. I will buy now older models for a while and they have not as great sounds + have gears. This is not a problem for me. I like C-Sinus, SDS and 5-pole DCM motors. I want to try that ball bearing modification to some of my DCM motors and if I am happy I will later do it for all of my DCM motor equipped locomotives.

New Märklin model prices are not always in line what you will actually get. And yes I know about Mfx+ and other new features, but all too pricey models don't have Mfx+.

Regards,
Janne


slightly off topic:

Janne,

Märklin Mfx and ESU Mfx or ESU RailComPlus, the latter is an advanced version of the Mfx decoders.

My intentions or understanding how I want my locos to function and with what type of motor or decoder since we have a string of other manufacturers, I don't see the need anymore to stick to closed Märklin protocols and to some degree I'm happy I didn't go down the path buying Mfx locos but I've explained there had been different reasons behind it not just the Mfx issue.
If I would buy one of the latest locos I would be pulling out the Mfx decoder and replace it with a different one and than would sell off the Märklin decoder, hence I buy older type locos, even analog and convert them into digital but you can't do this with C-Sine motors, apparently there are no replacement decoders.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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Offline 60904  
#46 Posted : 22 February 2014 20:08:46(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 312
It is hard to believe that this is an answer to the customer. But it is. To cut a long story short. I am convinced that most of the Märklin users would love to have smooth driving locos. This motor with only 3 poles, no efficient flywheel has none of the characteristics that makes a Märklin loco. I don't mind the number of poles, the name or whatsoever, what I want is that the locos in 2014 have the same performance as the old 3021. Take away power at full speed and it will stop after 50cm. Even a 3029 which I have just repaired stops after >30cm when taking away power at full speed. And I also like to have a motor that can easily be maintained if necessary or replaced for a few € or $.
Greetings
Martin
Offline Webmaster  
#47 Posted : 22 February 2014 20:49:38(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Dear Mr. Mayer,

Please remember what you published in 1988 ( 193 61 - Rk 01 88 ju ):


Here they they actually also use ***** together with a 5-pole icon - please note, not the 5-star motor icon...

No wonder we all get confused by this - and as we concluded in another topic, their product feature communication to the market needs improvement - and still does...
It must be kept clear and simple, while also explaining more advanced features in a simple way - and a link to more detailed information to all possible uses for a product.
Here we have clear case of a symbol that has been interpreted in many ways, especially when it was reused also with the digital 6090 decoders and the 5-pole DC motors in the 37xx series.


The 3511 (Faulhaber DC motor) was a great loco in this 35xx series for analog operation, it had anti-slip control, while the 5-star motored 3518 I have only sucked more current from the tracks and slowed down when things got tougher - like pulling a heavy train on a steep gradient...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline 60904  
#48 Posted : 23 February 2014 10:08:51(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 312
You are right. 5* always used to be a 5 pole or Sinus. Just imagine you order a new car with a navigation system and what you get when you take over the car is a classic road map.
Greetings
Martin
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#49 Posted : 03 April 2014 15:29:23(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello John,
I'm really surprised and disappointed about this answer from Märklin Service:

Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post

1. Die Anzahl der 5 Sterne hatte noch nie etwas mit der Anzahl an Polen der Anker zu tun.
the number of stars had never anything to do with the number of poles on the armature

2. Wir haben nie behauptet, dass der heutige Motor 5 Pole besitzt.
We never stated that the current motor is 5 pole

3. Wir lassen uns nicht von überholten Vorurteilen leiten. Wichtig für uns ist, dass ein Motor unsere umfangreichen Tests besteht und in allen Kriterien dabei brilliert. Der neue Motor hat all diese Anforderungen mit Bravour bestanden.
We will not change our minds because of repeated unfounded rumours, for us, one thing is important that the motor has proved all its tests and the outcome was brilliant and the new motor showed all characteristics of an outstanding performance.

4. Unsere Kundenbefragung hat ergeben, dass aktuell nur eine sehr kleine Gruppe an Kunden hier sehr lautstark gegen den neuen Motor auftritt. Leider müssen wir auch feststellen, dass wir hier mit Fakten nicht weiterkommen. Die absolute Mehrheit unserer Kunden lässt sich aber lieber von dem eigenen Empfinden leiten und ist mit dme Ergebnis nach unserer Erfahrung sehr zufrieden.
Our customer service survey showed its only a small group of people who have expressed their disapproval of this motor and we have established, unfortunately regardless about the facts we don't seem to get anywhere to convince their imbedded opinions und we have been very satisfied by our experiences.

Der bisherige 5-polige Motor bedarf eines mehrstufigen Getriebes, was jedoch prinzipbedingt zu einem höheren Geräuschpegel führt. Dieses Manko stellt bei der Mehrheit unserer Kunden heute das größere Problem dar. Daher haben wir mit mehr Kritik an dem früheren Antriebskonzept (z.B. in 37078) zu kämpfen als mit kritischen Äußerungen in der überwiegenden Anzahl unserer Kunden über den neuen Antrieb.
The current 5 pole motor had a multi gear arrangement which in turn created a higher noise level and this noise level many modelers complained about it and our task was to comply and respond to these complaints rather than the current criticism from customers about the new motor

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Ihr Märklin Kundenberater


I hope, that this will not be the full truth. The discussion line of Mr. Mayer is really disgracefully. He claims about the facts. But it is Märklin who doesn't provide the facts. So, without facts, it is hardly to discuss with them.

But I still hope, this wasn't the last word from Märklin!

Greetings,
Moritz
Offline kimballthurlow  
#50 Posted : 03 April 2014 22:55:53(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Hello John,
I'm really surprised and disappointed about this answer from Märklin Service:

I hope, that this will not be the full truth. The discussion line of Mr. Mayer is really disgracefully. He claims about the facts. But it is Märklin who doesn't provide the facts. So, without facts, it is hardly to discuss with them.

But I still hope, this wasn't the last word from Märklin!

Greetings,
Moritz


Hi Moritz,

You are surely free to be surprised and disappointed, that is your right.

However, we do not use the English word "disgraceful" in such circumstances. It is too strong.
I know Mr Frank Mayer, and I find him most helpful and honest in his dealings with me.
His answer to John is not disgraceful, just factual in regards to the questions that John put to him.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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