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Poll Question : Would you sign an open letter to Märklin about decoder/motor problems with your name?
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Offline H0  
#1 Posted : 06 January 2014 10:19:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Obsolete.

Edited by user 20 January 2014 22:53:33(UTC)  | Reason: I'm out.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Janne75  
#2 Posted : 06 January 2014 10:28:42(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi Tom, all,

I'm not happy with some Märklin mfx decoders settings and the result is a jerky loco at certain speeds. However I can not say the same for motors, as it seems some new style Can motors are reliable enough (for me at least), smooth and quiet running.

I can understand that some other loco models have more problems than others and as you already made that very good slow speed running test with many locos we could all see the results. Many locos with Märklin mfx decoders are running bad and locos equipped with ESU decoders run many times better, but not always.

I could complain about their some mfx decoders, but definitely not about their all new motors. They should anyway tell more about their current motors for their customers.

So I'd sign it. But I want to read it first.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 06 January 2014 10:51:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Not all new motors are bad. But some new motors are not really good and you cannot tell from the product description what you get.
And the not so good motors show that the load regulation of the new mfx decoders is not on the level with other decoders.

Märklin choose the motors, Märklin choose the decoders. Märklin sell locos that do not run good out of the box. Not all locos run bad, but some do.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline AshleyH  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:24:35(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
In principle I would sign it, but need to read it first.

It has to be said that there is some variability with the new motors. I have a 37740 Lollo and it runs perfectly, almost indistinguishable from my softdrive sinus 218, but I know yourself and others have had slow speed running problems with this model. I believe it to be only 3 Pole.

Conversely, my 37705 VT75 runs like a dog with 3 legs, yet it has a 5 pole skew wound open frame motor. But, there is some problem with the gears which I will work on when my eyes are better. I have made some progress, but it is my most disappointing Marklin model ever.
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Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:42:25(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I think it has been apparent for years now, we are getting a raw deal and the buyers are not complaining, so why change. the 3 pole motor design hasn't changed for over 30 years, you tell me one manufacturer today which uses 1980's technology.

I can see it on the forum every day, show us your latest purchase or latest loco and the enthusiasm hasn't stopped and I wonder how many are really satisfied with their purchase.

if we can't have an ordinary discussion about the failure or failures of motors or other parts of a loco, track or any other item and not being tagged by someone: bashing the brand Märklin, than, we don't need all these sub sections and sub topics.

are we so docile we can't express our dissatisfaction with a product anymore and just except it as being part of a throw away society and money, service, quality, product description doesn't come into the quotation,

What is difference between this forum and the Stummi forum ? Why can't we take the initiative and make a point instead of sending endless and useless information backwards and forwards or making assumptions nobody knows if they are relevant or would change the course of action.

I don't think this forum is a platform for complaints and it was designed to meet other Märklinists and not to dissect each or any individual model or part.

Lack of interest is one contender and as long as it works for me why make a fuss about it.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 06 January 2014 13:34:36(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The new Marklin models I have bought in the last few years are much better in every way than those I've bought from the 1970s and 1980s, and certainly far superior in running and detail to even earlier models. The only recent model I have that runs a bit unevenly is the T3 from my 26555 set, and I have a suspicion it has something to do with the quartering of the driving wheels, but I have never had the time or the inclination to take it apart and investigate further. Anyway I don't think it falls into the same category of problems that we are discussing here.

Consequently I am happy with the models Marklin are supplying now and have no wish to complain. Others can have different opinions, of course.

I would prefer Marklin to be a bit clearer about the motor/drive arrangements in the product descriptions, as the phrase "high efficiency propulsion" means nothing really.
Phrases like "compact can motor with flywheel and worm drive" would be much more informative, and if they also specified the number and angle of the windings it would also help to inform better, though this can also be misleading as these are often mis-interpreted.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 06 January 2014 13:49:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I think it has been apparent for years now, we are getting a raw deal and the buyers are not complaining, so why change. the 3 pole motor design hasn't changed for over 30 years, you tell me one manufacturer today which uses 1980's technology.
The complaints are about the new 3-pole motors introduced since 2011. Cheap can motors, maintenance-free. Well, some are cheap, some are not - but the product description calls 'em all "controlled high-efficiency propulsion" and even the 5* symbol is used for locos with three-pole motors.

It seems production quality varies a lot (no surprise with cheap mass-produced penny articles) and the load regulation of the new mfx decoders fails remarkably with those new motors. The firmware of the decoders also varies a lot - and the firmware is locked against upgrades from a CS2.

That's what the complaints are about: lack of motor quality, lack of decoder load regulation, lack of transparency with product descriptions.
Not all locos have bad motors, but some premium models do have bad motors.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline TimR  
#8 Posted : 06 January 2014 14:09:19(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
I'd sign it.

First and foremost, I'm never happy with Markln's decision to go with MFX protocol...

This is the fundamental issue.

They made a really bad investment in trying to make their own new protocol.
It's not a unique technology and offer no advantage to upsurp DCC, the world's chosen MRR technology, to begin with.
that's before we even get to the problems with their load regulation of the decoder.
Yet, they continue to pour money down the drain...

Oh, yeah, I forgot, they needed ESU to help them built such protocol in the first place,
before they badmouthed their former partner once the deal soured.

Marklin should have faced reality that they're no longer the leaders in MRR digital technology.
Since the highly regarded Marklin-Motorola protocol, that boat had long sailed away.... the world had moved on...
They're really digging their own graves since 2006 in this respect.


..... when it comes to motor, it's worse ....

Marklin should've been proud with their Sinus technology... (actually brushless motor-based technology)
This is one area, where I think they were the leader in the market,
even if they couldn't quite reign in the cost department.

Models like BR 45 with Maxxon motor proved to be almost as quiet and as smooth as SDS technology...
To this end, I'd tolerate downgrading from SDS to 5-pole armature w/ Flywheel or Coreless motor;
but I think the current practice with el-cheapo motor is quite insulting to the design of their own models.... and their customers.

After 10 years promoting Sinus proudly (and deservedly) as the best motor in MRR,
maintenance free, torquey, and super quiet/smooth;
they decided to put el-cheapo no brand motor in those models???

I think they should've pulled the plug in digital technology, and invested in Sinus successor instead.

Enough said.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 06 January 2014 14:24:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
First and foremost, I'm never happy with Markln's decision to go with MFX protocol...
I'd sign that. But I presume this will not be mentioned in the open letter (probably only a small minority that's against mfx).
But everyone's free to send a private letter (or e-mail) to the decision makers at Märklin.

But when it comes to motors then I think an open letter with many signatures (hopefully more than 100) will be better than say 20 individual e-mails.
It's easier to sign a letter than to write an own letter - especially in a foreign language (the decision makers should be able to read German and English).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 06 January 2014 14:26:47(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I think it has been apparent for years now, we are getting a raw deal and the buyers are not complaining, so why change. the 3 pole motor design hasn't changed for over 30 years, you tell me one manufacturer today which uses 1980's technology.
The complaints are about the new 3-pole motors introduced since 2011. Cheap can motors, maintenance-free. Well, some are cheap, some are not - but the product description calls 'em all "controlled high-efficiency propulsion" and even the 5* symbol is used for locos with three-pole motors.

It seems production quality varies a lot (no surprise with cheap mass-produced penny articles) and the load regulation of the new mfx decoders fails remarkably with those new motors. The firmware of the decoders also varies a lot - and the firmware is locked against upgrades from a CS2.

That's what the complaints are about: lack of motor quality, lack of decoder load regulation, lack of transparency with product descriptions.
Not all locos have bad motors, but some premium models do have bad motors.


thanks for the clarification

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 06 January 2014 15:35:27(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
There is an initiative on Stummi's Forum to send an open letter to Märklin complaining about the new propulsion of Märklin locos (cheap motors, inappropriate decoders, bad documentation in the product database with misleading 5* symbols).

Currently there is a poll (you have to log in to participate):
http://stummiforum.de/vi...ic.php?f=31&t=103796

The letter wasn't written yet and will take a few days/weeks to be written.

Is anybody here willing to sign such an open letter with his name?

When the letter will have been written we will find a way for you to submit your names.


I did already wrote mail to Marklin for three weeks ago and they did answered back.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 06 January 2014 15:39:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
I'd sign it.

I think they should've pulled the plug in digital technology, and invested in Sinus successor instead.

Enough said.


Sorry...but Sinus and SDS motor are terrible for the two rail and DCC.
Customer did complainment against those motor and Marklin will loss money by put back those motor in Trix locomotivs.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Renato  
#13 Posted : 06 January 2014 16:05:23(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Hi,

I think I would sign it, but need to read the letter first (hopefully it should written in German with the corresponding exact English translation).

Cheers

Renato
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Offline foumaro  
#14 Posted : 06 January 2014 16:10:48(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
I think that the right way to protect our wallets is to be careful what we are buying,this is a rule for all products and not only for trains.If we stop buying products with bad quality companies will be most carefull in the future.
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Offline Danlake  
#15 Posted : 06 January 2014 18:20:53(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Tom,

I think it’s a good initiative but would first need to read a draft before signing.

Personally I have not experienced these new motors in my small loco collection – however I am disappointed that Marklin has rolled it out without informing its consumers accordingly. After all we are not in the market for buying cheap Hornby loco's with can motorsAngry

I think this forum (and Stumi) with the amount of registered users should use its voice to let Marklin know of any dissatisfaction with its products - the hard part is of course to agree.

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline jeehring  
#16 Posted : 06 January 2014 18:56:17(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I.
...(...).... The firmware of the decoders also varies a lot - and the firmware is locked against upgrades from a CS2. ...(...)...

.


...I am becoming curious :
how do you know if a firmware is locked?....or Locked against upgrades ?
how to know if firmwares are varying, as they are locked ?
What about these variations ? Which différences ? On which point ?

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
[....-.....(...)... but the product description calls 'em all "controlled high-efficiency propulsion" and even the 5* symbol is used for locos with three-pole motors.

.....(.....)..., lack of transparency with product descriptions.
.

this is my first head of complaint against Marklin....

....then, for the rest, I feel free not to buy anymore....

Edited by user 06 January 2014 22:21:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#17 Posted : 06 January 2014 20:12:18(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
I think that the valid argument here is about the product descriptions. I'd like to know what the technical specification of the model is, so that I can compare against similar models made by other manufacturers.
The fact that the real quality-standard of the item is deliberately obscured, is somewhat insulting.

But I now factor that into my purchasing.

This deleted post is restored by moderator.
Dear Mulldog lemon, restoring your deleted posts is a lot of work for the moderators, so please stop deleting your posts !!

Edited by moderator 29 March 2014 19:02:50(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Webmaster  
#18 Posted : 06 January 2014 21:38:58(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
A bit off topic - but is there a list somewhere of the models with the El Cheapo 3-pole DC motor & regulated decoders announced as "high effiency"?

Would be good to know if I have one of those, so I can test myself before joining the general rally against this "development" of motors...


I think product description is the main issue here, Märklin has a history of "hidden issues" regarding this - like eg the 3711 which was announced as having a "special 6090-type high efficiency decoder" in the catalog (with the 5***** notation too...) but there was no load regulation with this Faulhaber equipped loco...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline clapcott  
#19 Posted : 07 January 2014 00:15:36(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
... send an open letter to Märklin complaining about the new propulsion of Märklin locos (cheap motors, inappropriate decoders, bad documentation in the product database with misleading 5* symbols).
....


I am unclear on what the exact scope , and purpose of this is.

If it is just an attempt to find out if Marklin is willing to listen then I do not see that it needs to be so aggressive. If it is playing the "Threat to your brand reputation" card, then I wish to see evidence that the normal channels have been exhausted - specifically what the outcomes of any of the round-table of insider meetings that user groups have with Marklin. Adding to that would be some knowledge of what has happened to dealer advocacy on behalf of the clients. I have often read about such meetings being held but have always been curious as to what happens afterwards and if any tangible KPIs are set down or tracked.
Not being in Europe and not knowing the German language, I have to appreciate some "buffering/filtering" but that doesn't mean I have to only consider one side of the story.

While you mention "bad documentation" - there is also the issue of "insufficient" documentation which, as has also been mentioned, would allow for more appropriate levels of expectation. I cite the newer "bubble gum" documentation that shows a graphic of an oil bottle and a grease tube but has foregone the part numbers. Duh..

Already I see distracting posts introducing mFX as a co-conspirator, which is a front end protocol, and has nothing to do with the motor propulsion.
Or are you complaining about everything?

I also believe more substance is needed about gear-trains/couplings/flywheels etc. that make up the motor assembly. If you want to focus the case that you are building it needs to be down to something that can actually be worked on rather than a blunderbuss approach. Nothing can be taken in isolation and interoperability of components is just as important as the "appropriateness" of any individual component. Some informing tables/graphs are needed for perspective.


Peter
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Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 07 January 2014 00:40:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Already I see distracting posts introducing mFX as a co-conspirator, which is a front end protocol, and has nothing to do with the motor propulsion.
Or are you complaining about everything?
mfx is an almost flawless digital protocol. ESU implemented mfx in decoders with good load regulation. Märklin implemented mfx in decoders with sub-standard load regulation.
The problem is not the protocol used by the decoders, the problem is the bad implementation of load regulation.
Same type of motor runs good with cheap fx decoders but runs bad with more expensive mfx decoders. Not a matter of protocols.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mbarreto  
#21 Posted : 07 January 2014 01:24:42(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257


I need to read the letter in order to decide if I sign it or not.

For me it is very important Märklin describes the motors the are using, including the brand and P/N if they are not produced by them (which I thin kit is now the rule in newer models).

Relating load regulation I totally agree with Tom. His test results are a clear indication of the issue.

About the motors, I really don't know what to say because i have no problem with them.
I think 3 pole motors are more difficult to control in slow running because of the variations in speed at very low voltage. They also are less powerful. It is critical the motors are made with metal that is hard to oxide.
Sometimes i had and still have problems with the old DCMs which start to make a strange noise and not so god running, then to solve the issue i have to substitute the rotor, the brushplate and the brushes.

As I stated in other threads, the best motor for me is the SDS and after that I prefer coreless maxon or faulhaber.

I have a 37160 BR94.5 and it runs ok. I think it has the cheap motor... I didn't do tests relating load regulation, though.
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline mike c  
#22 Posted : 07 January 2014 01:33:42(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The rise of ESU as the prominent maker of digital decoders was unexpected. In the space of maybe two years, ESU went from being a new kid on the block to being the number one OEM supplier. At one point, ESU was supplying Maerklin, Roco, Hag and others and was developing the whole mfx concept in conjunction with Maerklin. I think that it got to the point where many of the companies were not happy with ESU, partially due to delays in development and delivery due to the upswing of business and partially because nobody wants to share a partner with the competition. On top of that, there were a few at ESU who wanted ESU to launch their own model line, which likely upset the other manufacturers, who felt that ESU was trying to cut into their game.
The end result was that Maerklin abandoned ESU and had to replace the original MS/CS with an in-house version, as well as having to find a new source for the mfx program. Roco also decided to break with the other companies and opted for Zimo as the new standard.

I think that although ESU has it's own problems, that Maerklin's issues more likely involve their efforts to replace and replicate the ESU decoders and programming likely caused added problems at a time where they were not needed and not in the interest of the company.

I have an issue with metal hobby models that can be upgraded to the price of a regular model, but do not have the details or finishing of a regular model.
Maerklin needs to have the Traxx and Eurosprinter as part of their regular line, as these model series form the core of current tractive power throughout Europe.
I think that they need to improve the details of cars/coaches (not full LSM but at least similar to Roco) and widen the selection thereof.
I buy Maerklin because I like the 3 rail system, not because of M Track or shortened length coaches. With the classic clientele slowly fading, they need to compete for a larger share of the overall market and they should be able to do that without leaving their loyal clientele behind. There is no reason they can't do 24, 27 and 28 or 30cm coaches at the same time.
They also need to step up and deliver curved switches and other tracks that people have been waiting for for eons.
As a surprise, they could even deliver a R3 and even R4 in M Track as a special item.
I just hope that they use their imagination and see what they can do to rebuild excitement about the brand.
If a letter will help achieve these goals, then so be it.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 08 January 2014 21:58:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
20 "yes" votes so far.
How about writing a marklin-users.net letter to Märklin? They should be able to read simple English.
Any volunteers, preferably native English speakers, for writing a draft that can be discussed here? I could write a draft if no-one else is willing, but would like a native English speaker to do at least the proof-reading.

Focus should be on decoder (load regulation) and motor problems (as indicated in the poll above). No rant against mfx in general (though I would sign that), no plea for full-length coaches (though I would sign that, too) or expansions to C track (which I would also sign).

Other letters could follow in the future.

Aspects the letter should cover IMHO:
  • Locos with downgraded motors that are only almost as good as previous versions (e.g. Big Boy 37994 and later, BR 45 37455)
  • Locos with mfx decoders that suffer from load regulation problems (BR 24 36242, BR 285 36553, Ludmilla 36424, BR 216 pre-series/BR 218 37740/37741/37745)
  • Insufficient information about motors in product database and new items brochure
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Yumgui  
#24 Posted : 08 January 2014 22:47:40(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,660
Location: Paris, France
I'll proof read it ... only for English language, and not technical content ... that is up to you all ^^

Lemme know,

Y
If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
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My heavy train station renovation: https://youtu.be/QQlyNiq416A
Inspired by: http://www.nakedmarklin.com/... Am not alone in this universe, phew.
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Offline Webmaster  
#25 Posted : 08 January 2014 23:41:27(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
As I see it, the issue is with the new "El Cheapo" 3-pole motor & the decoder driver stage regulation of that motor.

I must say that I have not yet noticed an issue (ok, one DOA with a bent pin in the MTC board contact years ago...) with the mfx decoders from Märklin & ESU and various motors.
But I must also say that I don't know if I have a model that has the new combo that is the subject here.

I have always thought that the 36xxx models do not have "high efficiency load regulation super duper decoders" so I do wonder a bit how complaints about these are justified...
It's another thing with 37xxx models, if decoders & motors are not up to par with the description given - then we have a "3711 revisited" situation...

So I would probably not sign such a letter if it also concerns 36xxx models not having 37xxx features in the decoder...

However, there might other quality issues too (mechanical) which affect the overall performance of a model that could mistakenly be blamed on the motor/decoder...


As I see, it is mainly an information/description problem - since as customers we want to know what we buy.
In the computer/phone/gadget market, there are usually adequate technical descriptions of the product so you know what you are buying...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline H0  
#26 Posted : 09 January 2014 00:24:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
36xxx locos with mfx use the same decoders as 37xxx locos with mfx. 36xxx locos without mfx run fine, the load regulation problems come with the mfx decoders when they are combined with the "special" three-pole motors of the hobby locos.
And the same decoder problem (insufficient load regulation) also shows with 37xxx locos and at least some of the new can motors used for 37xxx models.

36xxx models without sound have cheap fx decoders and run fine. The 36xxx models with sound they came up with recently have mfx decoders - and show load regulation problems. And that for more expensive models.

Märklin tell us that mfx is the best protocol - and then they sell hobby locos upgraded to mfx, but with downgraded speed characteristics.

Not all locos run bad with mfx decoders. But even some 37xxx locos run bad. Complaints are mainly about BR V 100, BR 94.5, and BR 216 Lollo.
Some owners of these locos do not complain - same here and on Stummi's Forum. Some do complain.

I understand that people who did not experience badly running locos may not want to sign such a letter.

On the HAG forum was a discussion about the flaws of the new Märklin crocodiles. One user compiled a list of these flaws and mailed it to Märklin. He received a reply signed by Stefan Löbich and Märklin wrote that some flaws would be addressed with future versions. Letters may have an effect. They may not help the early adopters.
I think it will take a lot letters to make them return to more expensive motors. Sales figures are a slow feedback to Märklin, letters are a fast feedback.

Hardly any Märklinist will like the idea of having three-pole motors in Märklin locos. The VT 75.9 has a five-pole motor, the Lollo has a three-pole motor - and both have the same description in the product database. "Controlled high-efficiency propulsion" means caveat emptor. If the 2013 predecessor with that description had five-pole motor then you can not assume that the 2014 model with that description will also have five-pole.

I won't buy any 2014 MäTrix items unless I can be sure about the motor of the model. Too late for the 2014 new items brochure, but they can update the product database at any time (and they did that for several models in the past).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Danlake  
#27 Posted : 09 January 2014 03:06:21(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Tom,

I think it’s a good idea to get a letter off and I suggest you make up a draft letter here. We can then try and make a version that will get the most signatures.

Suggest the letter to be in a more diplomatic matter than an angry letter – the former normally attracts a more positive response.

As just posted in another subject one Danish user managed to get confirmation from Marklin (in a friendly email) that they are aware of unstable problems with the revised turnout mechanism 74491 and working on a new type. So I also think that Marklin is open for feedback and as a minimum they may address the issue with product description.

The letter could also be copied to Tom Cathrell from the Marklin digital club?

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 09 January 2014 08:43:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I thought about it and had an idea:
The letter could contain several items (called "demands" or "proposals"). Each person signing the letter can vote "yes", "no" or "abstention (don't care)" for each item. For each item we will indicate the results of the votes. Items with more "no" than "yes" votes will not be included in the letter. Users without "yes" votes will not be named/counted in the letter.
I see two possibilities for the final letter: giving only the sums under each item and a list of names under the letter - or giving the names with the individual votes. I'd suggest the former way (no individual votes in the letter, only sums), but if somebody insists on the latter form that will be OK for me, too.

No angry letter. Polite, but I think it should have clear words. If we are too diplomatic and apply the SNAFU principle too much, they won't get the message.

Having several items and allowing forum members to vote for each item should make joining easier for those who do not support all proposals. This would allow to have some exotic proposals in the draft - and proposals with more "no" than "yes" votes won't be sent to Märklin.

What do you think about the idea of having several items in the letter with individual votes by forum members? Would allow to include proposals that go beyond motor/decoder problems and Märklin could see how we care about each of the proposals.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Janne75  
#29 Posted : 09 January 2014 09:19:42(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Tom, I like your idea of having several items in the letter and voting for them.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline mbarreto  
#30 Posted : 09 January 2014 10:31:35(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Tom, I like your idea of having several items in the letter and voting for them.

Janne


I also like it.


Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline mjrallare  
#31 Posted : 10 January 2014 18:22:35(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
I will sign such a letter. There are bound to be different opinions about this matter inside Märklin itself. Maybe someone in Märklin (most probably people on the technical side) will welcome it?

\Torbjörn
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Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 12 January 2014 09:58:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Edit: See #37 for updated draft.

Well, I wrote a draft for the letter.

I suggest the following phases:
I: Collect wishes and suggestions for the letter.
II: Filter and sort wishes and suggestions (i.e. discuss what will be included and what should be dropped).
III: Proof-reading by native English speaker.
IV: Send letter to Märklin via snail mail (who will get it? how many copies should be sent?)

So feel free to submit more wishes/suggestions or re-write my items.

The current draft (items marked A through F for reference purposes, will be 1 2 3 after filtering and sorting):
Quote:
Preamble
This letter was compiled by members of the Internet forum m-users.net and contains wishes and suggestions made by members of this forum. All members were invited to vote for the items in the list. Only few members contributed suggestions, only a handful of members voted (vote results are given for each item).
This letter is feedback from Märklin customers who are not fully satisfied with everything coming from Märklin.

A. Wish: No more yellow LEDs for models of prototype locomotives that have white lights.
Reasoning: The price difference between yellow and warm white LEDs is very small and even entry level locomotives (e.g. TRAXX line, RRP € 129.29) should have warm white LEDs.

B. Wish: Models of older prototype locomotives with rather dim light bulbs should use more appropriate LEDs (e.g. golden sunset, not warm white).
Reasoning: Old prototype locos use light bulbs with low wattage and thus the light gets a yellowish or orange hue. Warm white LEDs have a rather neutral white light that looks odd for steamers and old electrics (Swiss crocodiles, E 93, E 10, E 40, E 41 and many others).

C. Suggestion: Premium models shall have motors with bell-shaped armatures or five-pole motors with skewed armatures.
Reasoning: It’s a pity that new models like the Big Boys (#37994, #37995) or BR 45 (#37455) are just almost as good as the older models (#37993, #37452) because of new motors. The new motors are good, but the old motors were definitely better.

D. Demand: All Märklin 37xxx and 39xxx models should have running behaviour that does honour to the brand Märklin.
Reasoning: There are several complaints about the running behaviour of new models BR 94.5 (#37160, #37165), BR 216 Lollo (#37740, #37741), and BR 218 (#37745). It seems the decoder is not capable of controlling the motor properly. In-house quality tests must ensure that never again will such badly running locomotives be shipped to customers.

E. Wish: Märklin shall reconsider their decoder policy and include DCC also in Märklin H0 models.
Reasoning: DCC is included for Trix H0 locomotives, Märklin I locomotives and upgrade decoders (mLD, mSD). Some three-rail users prefer to disable mfx in the decoder and use DCC instead.

F. Wish: Märklin should explain their plans for long DB coaches in the foreseeable future.
Reasoning: Märklin introduced “new longer length” coaches (282 mm) a few years ago, but made trains for eras III and IV only. Coaches for eras V and VI are long overdue. Märklin introduced a set of full length double-stock coaches (303 mm) for era III. And they also make tin-plate coaches (240 mm) and my world coaches (264 or 270 mm). Märklin should explain, which length scales will be supported in the future (e.g. with new moulds).

I propose to sent the letter in English with a German introduction (more or less a translation of the preamble with the invitation that they can reply in German (if they want to reply at all)).

Edited by user 12 January 2014 19:55:19(UTC)  | Reason: See #37 for updated draft.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#33 Posted : 12 January 2014 10:19:31(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
And the most important what Marklin must do...change the symbols of the locomotivs like motor.
If locomotiv have 3 pole motor, the symbol must stand 3 stars.
Is there flywheel too, the symbol shows up with that.
Brawa has already complete symbols!! ThumpUp
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Danlake  
#34 Posted : 12 January 2014 12:04:16(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Tom,

I think it’s a good letter and well written.

If I was in charge of the product line at Marklin I would found such a letter valuable in customers feedback.

Rather than demand I would use 2 categories (recommendation and wishes). A recommendation being something concrete and having evidence backed up why it’s a recommendation. A wish on the other hand is whatever we can dream up!

A few comments/suggestions:

Item D (rephrase)
I would rephrase last sentence to something like: “It seems the decoder is not capable of controlling the motor properly. In house quality test should ensure such products are not being shipped to customers”. The never again sentence has no meaning and will only create a negative feel and fewer signatures here.

Item G (new item)
Recommendation: Marklin to review the documentation
Reasoning: It has been observed that several locomotives (# XXXXX, #XXXX etc.) have been described in the product information as fitted with 5 high efficiency pole motor, while in reality they are fitted with a 3 pole can motor.

Item H (new item):
Recommendation: Marklin should try and improve the turnout mechanism 74491.
Reasoning: Since the introduction of the improved version 74491 users have also reported problem with these switch mechanism being unstable after a certain period. It’s acknowledge that it may be complicated to develop a switch that can work reliable with both analogue and digital current, but it’s our hope that Marklin will be able to find a solution in the near future?

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline mbarreto  
#35 Posted : 12 January 2014 12:44:41(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Hi Tom,

I think it’s a good letter and well written.

If I was in charge of the product line at Marklin I would found such a letter valuable in customers feedback.

Rather than demand I would use 2 categories (recommendation and wishes). A recommendation being something concrete and having evidence backed up why it’s a recommendation. A wish on the other hand is whatever we can dream up!

A few comments/suggestions:

Item D (rephrase)
I would rephrase last sentence to something like: “It seems the decoder is not capable of controlling the motor properly. In house quality test should ensure such products are not being shipped to customers”. The never again sentence has no meaning and will only create a negative feel and fewer signatures here.

Item G (new item)
Recommendation: Marklin to review the documentation
Reasoning: It has been observed that several locomotives (# XXXXX, #XXXX etc.) have been described in the product information as fitted with 5 high efficiency pole motor, while in reality they are fitted with a 3 pole can motor.

Item H (new item):
Recommendation: Marklin should try and improve the turnout mechanism 74491.
Reasoning: Since the introduction of the improved version 74491 users have also reported problem with these switch mechanism being unstable after a certain period. It’s acknowledge that it may be complicated to develop a switch that can work reliable with both analogue and digital current, but it’s our hope that Marklin will be able to find a solution in the near future?

Brgds - Lasse


I totally agree with these comments and suggestions.

Edit:
On the last sentence of the preamble, we may try to be softer. For example:

This letter is feedback from Märklin dedicated customers who are not fully satisfied with everything coming from Märklin. We send this letter in a positive perspective, with the aim to have better Märklin products and so help Märklin grow.

The 2 items below I think are not so critical, but I would like Märklin to have action on that areas.

Item I (new item):
Recommendation: Märklin should try to develop a new close coupler, that if possible is still compatible with the current ones.
Reasoning: Sometimes the coupling is difficult and this happens when both couplers are exactly at the same height.

Item J (new item):
Recomendation: Improve C track plastics.
Reasoning: C track still breaks after several couple/decouple of track sections. We know that if both track sections being decoupled are slightly raised they break less or almost don't break. For C track to be really resistant and suitable for kids, the plastic shouldn't break so easily.


I also would like to have written something positive in the letter like "the detail and accuracy to the prototype of the new Märklin products is very good and satisfies us".
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Janne75  
#36 Posted : 12 January 2014 18:20:17(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi,

I think with these suggested modifications we will be able to send a very friendly and informative letter to Märklin. I'm 100 % sure that our letter will have some impact on them.

Many thanks to Tom and others in advance ThumpUp .

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 12 January 2014 19:54:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Updated the letter.

I still suggest the following phases:
I: Collect wishes and suggestions for the letter.
II: Filter and sort wishes and suggestions (i.e. discuss what will be included and what should be dropped).
III: Proof-reading by native English speaker.
IV: Send letter to Märklin via snail mail (who will get it? how many copies should be sent?)

So feel free to submit more wishes/suggestions or re-write my items.

The current draft (items marked A through J for reference purposes, will be 1 2 3 after filtering and sorting):
I and J are new, G was rephrased (Lasse, I hope the version is OK - feel free to rephrase again):
Quote:
Preamble
This letter was compiled by members of the Internet forum m-users.net and contains wishes and suggestions made by members of this forum. All members were invited to vote for the items in the list. Only few members contributed suggestions, only a handful of members voted (vote results are given for each item).
This letter is feedback from Märklin customers who are not fully satisfied with everything coming from Märklin.

A. Wish: No more yellow LEDs for models of prototype locomotives that have white lights.
Reasoning: The price difference between yellow and warm white LEDs is very small and even entry level locomotives (e.g. TRAXX line, RRP € 129.29) should have warm white LEDs.

B. Wish: Models of older prototype locomotives with rather dim light bulbs should use more appropriate LEDs (e.g. golden sunset, not warm white).
Reasoning: Old prototype locos use light bulbs with low wattage and thus the light gets a yellowish or orange hue. Warm white LEDs have a rather neutral white light that looks odd for steamers and old electrics (Swiss crocodiles, E 93, E 10, E 40, E 41 and many others).

C. Recommendation: Premium models shall have motors with bell-shaped armatures or five-pole motors with skewed armatures.
Reasoning: It’s a pity that new models like the Big Boys (#37994, #37995) or BR 45 (#37455) are just almost as good as the older models (#37993, #37452) because of new motors. The new motors are good, but the old motors were definitely better.

D. Recommendation: All Märklin 37xxx and 39xxx models should have running behaviour that does honour to the brand Märklin.
Reasoning: There are several complaints about the running behaviour of new models BR 94.5 (#37160, #37165), BR 216 Lollo (#37740, #37741), and BR 218 (#37745). It seems the decoder is not capable of controlling the motor properly. In house quality test should ensure such products are not being shipped to customers.

E. Wish: Märklin shall reconsider their decoder policy and include DCC also in Märklin H0 models.
Reasoning: DCC is included for Trix H0 locomotives, Märklin I locomotives and upgrade decoders (mLD, mSD). Some three-rail users prefer to disable mfx in the decoder and use DCC instead.

F. Wish: Märklin should explain their plans for long DB coaches in the foreseeable future.
Reasoning: Märklin introduced “new longer length” coaches (282 mm) a few years ago, but made trains for eras III and IV only. Coaches for eras V and VI are long overdue. Märklin introduced a set of full length double-stock coaches (303 mm) for era III. And they also make tin-plate coaches (240 mm) and my world coaches (264 or 270 mm). Märklin should explain, which length scales will be supported in the future (e.g. with new moulds).

G. Recommendation: Märklin to review product descriptions in new items brochures, catalogues, and product database
Reasoning: It has been observed that several locomotives (#37160, #37740 &c.) are showing the 5* symbol (which makes customers expect a five-pole motor), while in reality they are fitted with a three-pole can motor.

H. Recommendation: Märklin should try and improve the turnout mechanism 74491.
Reasoning: Since the introduction of the improved version 74491 users have also reported problem with these switch mechanism being unstable after a certain period. It’s acknowledged that it may be complicated to develop a switch that can work reliable with both analogue and digital current, but it’s our hope that Märklin will be able to find a solution in the near future?

I. Recommendation: Light functions should use decoder outputs (if available) instead of SUSI boards
Reasoning: Some recent models (e.g. #37577, #22770 (Trix)) used a SUSI board to control advanced light functions (for interior lights and cab lights) while AUX1 through AUX4 were not used. Disadvantage of using SUSI boards: the lights cannot be dimmed (and cab lights are very bright with these models).

J. Recommendation: Instruction manuals should explain use of decoder function outputs and SUSI functions (at least for analogue models).
Reasoning: The manuals for several models (including #22631ff and #22779 (Trix)) do not explain which light functions are available and how they are activated. With the former model, AUX3 and AUX4 are used to control lights while AUX1 and AUX2 are unused. With the latter model, AUX1 through AUX4 are unused and light functions are activated through SUSI using sound slots 12 through 16.


Will 24 hours more be enough for collecting items for the letter?


Edit: new draft below.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Webmaster  
#38 Posted : 12 January 2014 21:27:41(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Rephrasing in C - "should" instead of "shall", keeps it in line with D...
Maybe "Reasoning" should be replaced by "Reason" in all points too...

And the most important point in my view, as posted by Miguel, since it has been a problem since it has been a problem for the last 15 years or so...
I don't care if motors run a bit jerky at speed step 1 or if coaches are not "long enough" or any of the other petty issues if I can't set up a reliable track from storage without breaking the track pieces...

Quote:
Item J (new item):
Recomendation: Improve C track plastics.
Reasoning: C track still breaks after several couple/decouple of track sections. We know that if both track sections being decoupled are slightly raised they break less or almost don't break. For C track to be really resistant and suitable for kids, the plastic shouldn't break so easily.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline H0  
#39 Posted : 12 January 2014 21:56:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
Recommendation: Improve C track plastics.
Reasoning: C track still breaks after several couple/decouple of track sections. We know that if both track sections being decoupled are slightly raised they break less or almost don't break. For C track to be really resistant and suitable for kids, the plastic shouldn't break so easily.
I cannot confirm that current C track breaks easily if treated as recommended by Märklin.
C track made from the latest formula is marked "ASA" at the bottom.
C track also bears a date stamp (month and year) at the bottom.

To make this item constructive feedback I suggest that those who have problems with current ASA tracks provide ref. numbers and date codes for their tracks that got broken.

Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
I also would like to have written something positive in the letter like "the detail and accuracy to the prototype of the new Märklin products is very good and satisfies us".
Are there any Märklin models without Märklinisms (flaws that could have been avoided with no or little extra costs)?
I will try to think of something positive that I can sign without blushing.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Webmaster  
#40 Posted : 12 January 2014 22:02:28(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Where is the ASA marking located exactly?
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline H0  
#41 Posted : 12 January 2014 22:38:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Here's a picture with ASA (beside the CE sign):
ASA

A close-up:
ASA

And the other side with the date code (looks like Jan/2005 or Feb/2005):
ASA

Latest track can be identified by
  • No "Made in Germany"
  • No 24 before ref. number (only "130", not "24130" on picture above)
  • "CE" sign and ">ASA<" marking
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#42 Posted : 12 January 2014 22:47:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Updated the letter.

I still suggest the following phases:
I: Collect wishes and suggestions for the letter.
II: Filter and sort wishes and suggestions (i.e. discuss what will be included and what should be dropped).
III: Proof-reading by native English speaker.
IV: Send letter to Märklin via snail mail (who will get it? how many copies should be sent?)

So feel free to submit more wishes/suggestions or re-write my items.

The current draft (items marked A through J for reference purposes, will be 1 2 3 after filtering and sorting):
I, J, K and L are new, G was rephrased (Lasse, I hope the version is OK - feel free to rephrase again; L is on hold - please provide date codes for current C track that still breaks easily):
Quote:
Preamble
This letter was compiled by members of the Internet forum m-users.net and contains wishes and suggestions made by members of this forum. All members were invited to vote for the items in the list. Only few members contributed suggestions, only a handful of members voted (vote results are given for each item).
This letter is feedback from Märklin customers who are not fully satisfied with everything coming from Märklin. We send this letter with the aim to help Märklin improve their products and continue to grow.

A. Wish: No more yellow LEDs for models of prototype locomotives that have white lights.
Reasoning: The price difference between yellow and warm white LEDs is very small and even entry level locomotives (e.g. TRAXX line, RRP € 129.29) should have warm white LEDs.

B. Wish: Models of older prototype locomotives with rather dim light bulbs should use more appropriate LEDs (e.g. golden sunset, not warm white).
Reasoning: Old prototype locos use light bulbs with low wattage and thus the light gets a yellowish or orange hue. Warm white LEDs have a rather neutral white light that looks odd for steamers and old electrics (Swiss crocodiles, E 93, E 10, E 40, E 41 and many others).

C. Recommendation: Premium models shall have motors with bell-shaped armatures or five-pole motors with skewed armatures.
Reasoning: It’s a pity that new models like the Big Boys (#37994, #37995) or BR 45 (#37455) are just almost as good as the older models (#37993, #37452) because of new motors. The new motors are good, but the old motors were definitely better.

D. Recommendation: All Märklin 37xxx and 39xxx models should have running behaviour that does honour to the brand Märklin.
Reasoning: There are several complaints about the running behaviour of new models BR 94.5 (#37160, #37165), BR 216 Lollo (#37740, #37741), and BR 218 (#37745). It seems the decoder is not capable of controlling the motor properly. In house quality test should ensure such products are not being shipped to customers.

E. Wish: Märklin shall reconsider their decoder policy and include DCC also in Märklin H0 models.
Reasoning: DCC is included for Trix H0 locomotives, Märklin I locomotives and upgrade decoders (mLD, mSD). Some three-rail users prefer to disable mfx in the decoder and use DCC instead.

F. Wish: Märklin should explain their plans for long DB coaches in the foreseeable future.
Reasoning: Märklin introduced “new longer length” coaches (282 mm) a few years ago, but made trains for eras III and IV only. Coaches for eras V and VI are long overdue. Märklin introduced a set of full length double-stock coaches (303 mm) for era III. And they also make tin-plate coaches (240 mm) and my world coaches (264 or 270 mm). Märklin should explain, which length scales will be supported in the future (e.g. with new moulds).

G. Recommendation: Märklin to review product descriptions in new items brochures, catalogues, and product database
Reasoning: It has been observed that several locomotives (#37160, #37740 &c.) are showing the 5* symbol (which makes customers expect a five-pole motor), while in reality they are fitted with a three-pole can motor.

H. Recommendation: Märklin should try and improve the turnout mechanism 74491.
Reasoning: Since the introduction of the improved version 74491 users have also reported problem with these switch mechanism being unstable after a certain period. It’s acknowledged that it may be complicated to develop a switch that can work reliable with both analogue and digital current, but it’s our hope that Märklin will be able to find a solution in the near future?

I. Recommendation: Light functions should use decoder outputs (if available) instead of SUSI boards
Reasoning: Some recent models (e.g. #37577, #22770 (Trix)) used a SUSI board to control advanced light functions (for interior lights and cab lights) while AUX1 through AUX4 were not used. Disadvantage of using SUSI boards: the lights cannot be dimmed (and cab lights are very bright with these models).

J. Recommendation: Instruction manuals should explain use of decoder function outputs and SUSI functions (at least for analogue models).
Reasoning: The manuals for several models (including #22631ff and #22779 (Trix)) do not explain which light functions are available and how they are activated. With the former model, AUX3 and AUX4 are used to control lights while AUX1 and AUX2 are unused. With the latter model, AUX1 through AUX4 are unused and light functions are activated through SUSI using sound slots 12 through 16.

K. Recommendation: Märklin should try to develop an improved close coupler that, if possible, is still compatible with the current ones.
Reasoning: Sometimes the coupling is difficult and this happens when both couplers are exactly at the same height.

L. Recommendation: Improve C track plastics. [On hold, waiting for confirmation that current track with “>ASA<” mark still breaks easily when treated properly]
Reasoning: C track still breaks after several couple/decouple of track sections. We know that if both track sections being decoupled are slightly raised they break less or almost don’t break. For C track to be really resistant and suitable for kids, the plastic shouldn’t break so easily.


Will 20 hours more be enough for collecting items for the letter?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline mbarreto  
#43 Posted : 12 January 2014 23:37:58(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
About L, I am not at home during the full week, so I can't verify before Saturday.
If other members have the same problem, please verify if it is the new formula.
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline jeehring  
#44 Posted : 13 January 2014 02:35:26(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
C :....shall have BRUSHLESS MOTORS !
Because installing Brushed motors with commutator behind digital decoders is incoherent.
Commutators were invented a long time ago for analog DC currents
With analog DC power commutators were needed, required, necessary.
With digital drivers, commutators (& brushes) are unnecessary & completely useless .
With digital drivers, Commutators only became a superfluous source of mechanical friction
and the leading cause of wear & breakdown

Edited by user 13 January 2014 11:53:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by jeehring
Offline river6109  
#45 Posted : 13 January 2014 03:46:13(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Tom.

I believe the brush plate (5 pole motor with drum armature) should definitely be improved, nothing has been done since the original introduction.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline mattj70  
#46 Posted : 13 January 2014 04:15:32(UTC)
mattj70

United States   
Joined: 19/03/2010(UTC)
Posts: 460
Location: Hudson FL
Hi,

I am pretty happy with all my Marklin engines, I have 26 engines right now, and have bought a few others as gifts. For the most part they all are good runners, I have had two decoders go bad. Marklin has replaced them; corrected the engines. I have one older engine the Swiss engine 83463 which is older, bought used it runs poorly. However I don't know if it sat for a long time? or needs some upgrading?

All the brand new engines I have bought have always ran perfectly.

All the best,

Matt
Offline TimR  
#47 Posted : 13 January 2014 04:20:42(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
C :....shall have BRUSHLESS MOTORS !
Because installing Brushed motors with commutator behind digital decoders is incoherent.
Commutators were invented a long time ago for analog DC currents
With analog DC power commutators were needed, required, necessary.
With digital drivers, commutators (& brushes) are unnecesary & completely useless .
With digital drivers, Commutators only became a superfluous source of mechanical friction
and the leading cause of wear & breakdown


Brushless motor equals Sinus motor in Marklin's term...

I don't think we can kindly ask Marklin to re-introduce them in the letter...


Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline Hoffmann  
#48 Posted : 13 January 2014 04:49:35(UTC)
Hoffmann

Canada   
Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,106
Location: Guelph, Ontario


Folks,

I am dismayed.

The letter you wanted to write to Marklin was about 3 Pol Motors and Decoder performance. NOW it seems everything Marklin makes is bad.

Locomotives /passenger cars / couplers / track / lighting / decoders . It seems to me that Marklin can not make anything right these days.

If you want absolute Perfection you better start building your own Locomotives/Cars /Track etc.

I might as well quit this Hobby if nothing but bad items are produced.

Should this Letter come to me as a MFG. I would look at it and say we can to all this if you are willing to spend a $ 1000.00 on a Locomotive and $ 100.00 on a car and $ 10.00 for a piece of Track.

I am sure all who want perfection would come down to earth very fast.

Regards Martin
marklin-eh
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Offline TimR  
#49 Posted : 13 January 2014 04:59:50(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Tom.

I believe the brush plate (5 pole motor with drum armature) should definitely be improved, nothing has been done since the original introduction.

John


I agree to that...
Marklin once made a simple improvement to the 37605.

Marklin Product Description of 37605 wrote:

  • Special motors with ball bearings


Why can't they continue with that practice?
Cost reason?

Maybe we can add it to the 'Suggestion' part of the letter on "Improving DCM motor", if they want to continue to manufacture DCM...

Marklin really have a confusing motor development strategy/approach....

Summary of Marklin's 20-year of motor development:

LEGACY DCM motor continues on.....
... or wait.... Errr... it might require a replacement or.... er... substitute?? (Since it can't fit into a steamer's cab)
.... FIRST bell-shaped armature in 3511....(no-standard size though, we have to buy different motors for different models)
..... FIRST Sinus motor in 39711 ... (Finally one standard size....)
....... FIRST Compact Sinus in 2006 ... (Even better... now it can fit into the new BR01)
......... no, wait, we fixed the problem in the Compact, re-introducing them as SDS in 2007.... (Psst! It's basically the same motor!)
............ Nope, we've had enough with SDS and bell-shaped, we'll need to replace them...
.....................(Psssst........we like to present to you)
......................................for the FIRST time in Marklin's 20-year motor development history

.........3-pole el-cheapo can motor.......

.......... oh, and DCM is still here where all its prospective replacements are now gone....
(Pssst... 3-pole motor might replace DCM someday too! Look at 39850)
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline NZMarklinist  
#50 Posted : 13 January 2014 05:33:17(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
C :....shall have BRUSHLESS MOTORS !
Because installing Brushed motors with commutator behind digital decoders is incoherent.
Commutators were invented a long time ago for analog DC currents
With analog DC power commutators were needed, required, necessary.
With digital drivers, commutators (& brushes) are unnecesary & completely useless .
With digital drivers, Commutators only became a superfluous source of mechanical friction
and the leading cause of wear & breakdown


Brushless motor equals Sinus motor in Marklin's term...

I don't think we can kindly ask Marklin to re-introduce them in the letter...




"I don't think we can kindly ask Marklin to re-introduce them in the letter..."

Well why not ask, if you don't ask you don't get ! has been my experience Huh

Seeing we pay more for a Marklin Lok than they charge for the same Trix one anyway, why shouldn't we have SDS, and with proper driver electronics, probably on the decoder with eventually an SDS driver replacement decoder available as an option along with the others. That would make us beholden to Marklin for them but I'm not sure we actually want to go quite that far, but......! Scared Wink
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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