Good points...

Generally using a 3-pole motor is not the issue, if a few of conditions are fulfilled....

Firstly, the loco has to perform well, obviously....

Its pulling power, smoothness, and quietness has to meet what is expected of the brand and/or what is expected to be competitive in today's MRR modern standard,

AND...
Manufacturer has to be honest about what motor / decoder combination it's using, and not bombard customers with various dramatic & opulent jargons to try to misled the fact..

Installing single-time motors and announcing "MARKLIN - SIMPLY THE STRONGEST ".....
Don't they feel ashamed ?


Click here :


http://www.euromodeltrai...n/images/large/37455.jpg

I started a new thread to show some figures:
https://www.marklin-user...ontinued.aspx#post435436

Does the new BR 03 also equipped with 3 pôles motor ?
What about the Insider BR 58 (G 10) ?
What about the MHI BR 03.10 which was originally with ATHLONIX... did they change its motor too ?
I only have seen those models in static position...
Perhaps we should start a list of "which models are fitted with 3 pôles motors"....may be ?

I've never seen a thread more laced with poison than this one. I have some of these new motors, and they are FINE! If you don't like them, that's OK, but don't make them out to be the worst thing in the world. They are much better than the old three pole Marklin motors, such as the LFCM, SFCM etc, and a lot quieter than the 5 pole DCM.

Honestly, we have a bunch of moaners here!

There are many different can motors out there. Some are good and some are not so good. Most applications that use small electric motors now use some form of can motor.

Marklin uses several different types of can motor. Some are better quality than others.

The only way to tell if there is a can motor in a particular loco is from the exploded diagram, which you can find in the Marklin database. The spare parts list will also give you a price for the motor. I would say a 20 euro motor is not as good as a 100 euro motor (but cheaper to replace!)

I can't speak for Hornby, but I doubt that we would have the same low life expectancy for a Marklin motor.

I guess this begs the question, how many hours do we run our locos? My locos get run for about 10 minutes a day for each loco that's on the layout, for about 3 or 4 days, then they are rotated with other locos in my collection. The same loco might not return to the layout for six months or so. On this basis my locos each run for about 2 - 3 hours a year maximum, so I'll have to change the motor in 50 years time if I get one of these 150 hour motors!

If you run a continuous service 24 hours a day you might run into problems!

Ray, if your locos hibernate for six months at a time, do you not have problems with them starting at low speed and have to gently push them?

This is not usually a problem I come across with my locos.

Sometimes they need to have the wheels and/or axles cleaned because of contact problems when I haven't run them for a while. Running them at high speed for a few minutes usually clears that up, but I might have to put a drop of oil on the axles if contact problems persist.

Some of my locos with early non-regulated decoders sometimes run slower at first, and then start going faster and faster as the old oil softens.

Usually, though, I take them out, put them on the track, register them on the MS2, and off they go.

Hi Ray,all,

>Kevin, the breaking in or running in period is very important in my opinion, for any mechanical device.<

Tanks,airplanes and autos come to mind,....

>I run my new locos for 15-20 minutes in each direction at about medium speed when I first put them on the layout. I then put a drop of oil on the recommended points.<

First,I run them out of the box to see/hear how they run.Then oil (not M!) and grease IF needed.


>Places like MiWiLa which runs locos in exhibition conditions for many hours at a time usually have an intensive maintenance program with regular changes of brushes etc. The locos are usually rotated through the workshops at scheduled intervals to keep them working at their best.<

Good advise for all!

D

Most, but not all my Märklin engines work well. It seems this is mainly a problem of the new mfx decoders.

The problem engines are from 2009 and later.

I was given in another forum a link to a place that sells cam motors. Here it is:

When a vehicle of mine needed service not too long ago, I lamented , to my neighbor (who picked me up at the service center) that things should last a reasonably long time.

His comment was:"Whatever man makes , breaks" .

While I would love to have our beloved trains, no matter the make, last forever, the simple fact is, they will fail us at some time. It is lucky enough for us that we can enjoy them. I am thankful for that.

I test run my loco at high speed on a test track. I than listen to the pitch the motor makes and if the motor keeps its speed forward and backwards.
One can not measure the pitch but at least you can hear the tone. my 5 pole DCM are all overhauled or reconditioned and this means, a.) ball bearings on both sides, b.) the brush holder is glued down, c.) the brush holder is lined up with the opposite brush holder, d.) make sure both tension springs are on the same level, e.) when tightening the brush plate by moving it sideways or up and down slightly see if the motor smoothness improves. f.) make sure the cogwheels are clean and slightly oiled, g.) make sure the motor is turning freely without the brushes by placing your palm under the driving wheels.
You will find older moulds with 3 pole motors have a discrepancy and the newer 5 pole high efficiency motors do not allow any tolerances, it could be your drive bogy is slightly uneven when placing the perm. magnet against the drive bogy or it may not line up properly.
these are or could be rare instances but they do happen, hence noisy motors , erratic driving characteristics, with other words Märklin has never bothered to rectify or modify these motors including the brush plate itself, in meantime however decoders sometimes have dampened the effects of a rough running motor.
the brush shaft assembly is so rough and loosely designed, sometimes it doesn't sit properly in its provided groove, the shaft itself is sometimes not bend to the specifications of the brushes (hasn't been pressed or formed to a true 90° angle), the brush shaft itself is sometimes hanging in the air when the pressing machine secures the bruhs shaft assembly onto the brush plate and here we have the same scenario the shaft is not at an 90° angle in relation to the armature shaft.

although the principal design of the motor hasn't changed except the 5 pole armature and the permanent magnet and the help of a load regulated decoder the outdated or updated motor never got a proper overhaul.

You can see the different factors I have described and this hasn't included the cogwheels, to a certain extend also effects the performance of the motor or its noise level.

there are most probably a lot of forum members who don't need a performing motor or the noise level doesn't bother them or indeed are concerned or bothered about the inner workings of a motor, so long the loco goes from A to B

regards.,

John

That's because the other thread is/was in General MRR - you never know Z Gauge, N Gauge and 1 Gauge locos could also have 3 pole motors (heaven forbid!).

I was just writing a long response to that statement as an "Access denied" appeared on the screen and my long text was lost ...

The short version: we decide what we buy with our money.
What do you with worn brushes? On an old Märklin motor you replace the brushes. With the new locos you unsolder the motor and replace the motor.
How do you clean the collector? With an old Märklin motor you unscrew the brushplate and clean the motor. With the new locos you unsolder the motor and replace the motor.

Nothing lasts forever.
I do buy locos with maintenance-free can motors, but I favour maintenance-friendly motors that allow to replace worn brushes easily.

I boycott locos that operate badly or are overpriced. It's a lucky coincidence that many of the locos with maintenance-free throw-away-after-100-odd-hours can motors run badly or are not worth the RRP.

I'm surprised that Hornby plainly tell that the motors can only be expected to last 150 yours. I've never seen such figures from Märklin - and I don't think we'll see such figures unless legally required.

On Stummi's Forum you can read that many motors of the BR 94.5 have already failed (only hearsay, I didn't get that loco). It seems there was a problem with overgreasing at the factory (see "How do you clean the collector" above).

Märklin now use the description "controlled high-efficiency propulsion" for all motors (5-pole and 3-pole) to prevent us from boycotting 3-pole motors.
Fine by me, I save a lot of money this way. No orders until I know which motor is installed.

Some locos that were announced with two powered axles in the 2013 new items brochure finally came with four powered axles. So you cannot even rely on that new items brochure, thus no more pre-orders for powered rolling stock from Märklin. Sorry, Märklin - no pre-orders from me without sufficient and reliable information about the motors a model will have.

One of the main reasonS why I did choose Marklin is their reliability : a Marklin Lok could last forever (almost forever).
a MARKLIN loK always was a sturdy item . By comparison with other manufacturers, most Marklin items were designed to be robust, strong & sturdy first & foremost . They had the reputation to be very "technical" items as well.This was most important part of Marklin's identity.
Today they are in the same way as other manufacturers : kind of disposable detailled replicas to discard after use, cheaper manufacturing. No more "technical". *****
As for having a technical image & about nice technical motorized items: if they don't react soon they'll give way to ESU who is now producing metal Locomotive models and because of image who will benefit from it also for their digital station that is Although not so efficient than Marklin CS2.

***** each time Marklin have tended to to do like other manufacturers, loosing his identity Marklin went into troubles.....

I once did that (but without current) with a motor from a Liliput loco that was overoiled at the factory.
It was a five-pole motor and I could remove it without soldering. The motor had openings and I could reach the collector with a toothpick.

I'm not sure if this will work equally well with the current Märklin motors as the cans appear to be rather closed. Liquids will get in, but maybe you won't get the dust out and you cannot reach the gaps between the collector contacts.

Hi all,
I did something like the above,only with a Z-scale BR E-03,took it apart and soaked the motor in plain vinegar,used a hairdryer and airbrush to help dry it.Then a lube/grease,reassembled and that old 3-pole runs better than the 'new' 5-pole BR 74!!!!

D

The used "5-pole skewed can motor with a flywheel, centrally mounted" for quite a few models and I cannot understand why they didn't make this the standard motor for the premium products. Instead they introduced a new standard motor.
And when they used motors of the Faulhaber type they proudly announced that in the catalogues.
I can not understand why they gave up Faulhaber type motors and 5-pole skewed can motor.

"Don't you ever, don't you ever
"Lower yourself, forgetting all your standards"

A few days ago I read a German post about the Z scale motors.

In the beginning there were three-pole motors made in Germany. The cogging torque was high and the motors needed a high voltage to get going and they were not running smoothly.

Then came five-pole motors made in Germany. The cogging torque was much lower and locos ran much better. Motor runs significantly better.
The introduction of the new motor was not advertised to get unbiased customer feedback.

Then came five-pole motors made in Far East. They now had skewed armatures and theoretically they should run better - and some did. But the quality of the gears suddenly was low and some locos ran smooth while other locos ran jerky. Some were even worse than the old three-pole motors.

Source (German site):
http://w.z-freunde-inter...dex.php?title=Motortypen

Maybe three-pole motors for Z gauge will be back as soon as they introduce digital Z scale locos.

Now back to H0 gauge: low production quality and huge variation between exemplars of the same model are not unknown here. And Märklin has closed the circle from three-pole via five-pole and nine-pole (SDS) back to five-pole and three-pole ...

Hi,

I want to write a little bit more regarding the endurance test for my BR 81 (from starter set 29539). It has now been running continuously for a little more than 3,5 hours and everything is fine. I will not lubricate it if it's not starting to keep any bad noise. If it needs some lubrication in some point I will report it here. I want to keep it running as long as possible without any stops.

I have bridges that are 144 cm long on my layout. So if we think that it is "real world" bridge it would be 87 x (144:100) = 125,28 meter in 1:1 world. As it takes 6,2 seconds for BR 81 to run the distance of this bridge it is the same as 125,28 m : 6,2 seconds = 20,2 m/s. So same as 3,6 x 20,2 = 72,7 km/h prototypical speed. As we know that it takes about 1 minute and 10 seconds = 70 seconds to run around my outer mainline I could calculate that the outer mainline lenght is around 16,25 meters. 70 seconds : 6,2 seconds = 11,29 times the distance of 144 cm or 125,28 meters (prototypical). So 1,44 meters x 11,29 = 16,25 meters mainline lenght (1414,4 meters in 1:1 world). This BR 81 goes the same speed uphill or downhill as it has the newer decoder mfx with load regulation.

Enough from mathematics?

As this thread is for 3-pole can motors I will continue. Today I opened my Märklin 3425 Kittel can motor as it did not help when I sprayed electric cleaner to it and tested. It spins very slowly when helping to rotate it from it's flywheel (motor separately powered by analog transformer). I found maybe the reason why it has problems. Other brush was in two pieces . I think that there is no spare parts for these, so new motor should be bought. I managed to put it back together and left off the other smaller part from the damaged brush, but it functions as before. So I have opened and put back together my first 3-pole can motor .

Cheers,
Janne

Hi Janne,

I have also a Br81 with a can motor.
A second hand certainly from the 29160 starter set.

She runs perfectly an smoothly an you can see her running here slowly in analog mode:
Marklin-Br81-and-t-boxes

So no problem for me with this can motor but needs grease on the worm and some drops of oil though ...

Best regards
Joël