Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

5 Pages<1234>»
Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline jeehring  
#51 Posted : 17 December 2013 15:33:18(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
I'll not buy any 2013 items excepted a few coaches : 43204 and the sonorized 43252 (if the sound is good as I'll ask for a test in the shop)
I'll not buy Marklin Loco anymore excepted the one I booked to the train shop : 37981 with coaches ( this one never was made in Germany).
I'll focuse on former models produced before 2013. .
Offline Goofy  
#52 Posted : 17 December 2013 15:49:06(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Let´s see if Marklin did changed the mind about news 2014 with theirs motor.
If they did solved problems...
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline TimR  
#53 Posted : 17 December 2013 16:51:07(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
C-sine was an expensive experiment which was unaffordable to continue. Keep buying them on ebay if you wish, but you won't get the support for spare motors or decoders.


True,
it was a failed experiment, I don't think (or ever expect) that Marklin could ever go back, as they burned too many bridges:

1. Large C-Sine should probably have been kept as long-term in-house testing until it can be further improved to SDS final version.
2. Second generation Sine (Compact C-Sine - pre-SDS) was also released too early, receiving poor market feedback
3. SDS should've put emphasis on "optimized for Digital operations" -- after all, generally the market is in the phase of transition from "traditional" to Digital
4. Failure to streamline model lineup in line with the original Sinus development goal -- it was planned to power ALL Marklin models..
5. Failure to properly plan for mass-production over the long term, partly due to failure to achieve problem 4 as above.
6. Too much of Marklin's own budget was/ is still being absorbed with the development of its MFx system (intended to protect its perceived dominance of the shrinking AC market) <-- they should've gone DCC and save cost

Anyways, thanks to Marklin's decision making, we're now left with a large second hand market of models with far better motor setup than ANY new models that Marklin would ever produced, whose motor quality is in steady decline anyways.
And thanks to the perceived of no more support will be provided, those models will not cost an arm and a leg.

For SDS, we can still turn to ESU for decoder support... why bother with Marklin? They don't care anyways.

Motor-wise, SDS is a brushless motor -- it was designed to not ever requiring replacement.
Last resort: Sb-modellbau direct replacement Maxxon/faulhaber motor cost about 80 Euros.... Not bad, since Maxxon motors are actually almost as smooth as SDS.

Wait!
The many varieties of those el-cheapo motors are not in stock with Marklin anyways. They can change between two generations of the same model (BR218 is one example) and they will likely to fail more often.... since lowest cost is their primary priority...

That leaves Marklin customer with another question:
What's the difference between buying a more reliable, better performer SDS without not-so-enviable support and el-cheapo (supposedly) with support?

Now collecting C-Sine models.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by TimR
Offline TimR  
#54 Posted : 17 December 2013 16:55:59(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


why not go back to motors with bell-shaped armatures?


Exactly what i´m supposing too!!
Faulhaber or Maxon motor doesn´t cost so much.
Not really sure...i think about 35-40 euro.
Just take look at ESU new V60 with Faulhaber motor.
How nice!!




Cost is Marklin's primary concern.

Trying to market them as better comes second.

Customer comes a distant third.

Now collecting C-Sine models.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TimR
Offline mbarreto  
#55 Posted : 17 December 2013 19:56:29(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
During rotation, the torque supplied by the rotor is not constant but depends on its position relative to the stator. The irregularity of the torque favors irregular behaviour, specially at low speeds. This irregularity is high on engines 3 poles and decreases especially as the number of poles is high...


True and so I think 3 poles motors give the loco a smoother running and acceleration if the gear ratio high (1 turn of the wheel => very high number of turns of the motor pinion). A good flywheel also smoothes the running and acceleration. 3 poles motors have more difficult control requirements than motors with more poles (considering all the rest is similar).

I don't know if Maxon motors used by Brawa are 3 or 5 poles, but whatever they are the locos run smooth. The decoders are ESU and their locos use flywheels.




Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mbarreto
Offline Goofy  
#56 Posted : 18 December 2013 06:59:44(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


why not go back to motors with bell-shaped armatures?


Exactly what i´m supposing too!!
Faulhaber or Maxon motor doesn´t cost so much.
Not really sure...i think about 35-40 euro.
Just take look at ESU new V60 with Faulhaber motor.
How nice!!




Cost is Marklin's primary concern.

Trying to market them as better comes second.

Customer comes a distant third.



Not really truth.
Marklin are depending of customer and knows how to satisfaction theme with good quality products.
If not...they loss.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#57 Posted : 18 December 2013 07:06:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post


I don't know if Maxon motors used by Brawa are 3 or 5 poles, but whatever they are the locos run smooth. The decoders are ESU and their locos use flywheels.



Brawa has Maxon motor 5 poles with single or double flywheels.
I use 2 rail locomotivs with Brawa models and they run good.
But 3 rail has better contact than what 2 rail does,because of difference with wheels contact on the rail.
With MM or and DCC on the 3 rail makes much better contact with the locomotivs,since all wheels on both rail has better contact while pickup shoe is laying on the stud contact which also makes better contact than what 2 rail can offers.
It´s all has to do with better motor and good decoder that makes big difference.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline foumaro  
#58 Posted : 18 December 2013 08:02:11(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
My experience for all the above.I have 37491 29490 and 37493 GG1.The two older models running much better than the new 37493.I bought the 37493 to run a double header with the 29490,i put to the two locos the same settings with my 6021,speed,braking delay and accelaration delay but they cannot run together.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by foumaro
User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#59 Posted : 18 December 2013 08:18:30(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
The pricing says everything.
Brawa builds to a standard; Marklin builds to a price.


This deleted post is restored by moderator.
Dear Mulldog lemon, restoring your deleted posts is a lot of work for the moderators, so please stop deleting your posts !!

Edited by moderator 29 March 2014 19:27:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#60 Posted : 18 December 2013 08:42:08(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Price vs standard is a trade-off that every company has to decide on. In Brawa's case they are a smaller company dedicated to the higher end of the market, so they can afford to set higher prices. Marklin has to appeal to a wider customer base, so they are trading off motor price against potentially selling more locos at a more affordable price.

By the way, others have said that the locos with the new motors are selling for the same price as the SDS ones. I don't see this. All locos that are now 37xxx instead of 39xxx are considereably cheaper, at least the ones I have bought recently are.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline H0  
#61 Posted : 18 December 2013 09:09:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
By the way, others have said that the locos with the new motors are selling for the same price as the SDS ones. I don't see this. All locos that are now 37xxx instead of 39xxx are considereably cheaper, at least the ones I have bought recently are.
Some are cheaper, but without doing a statistics I think most kept their prices.

I think the spare part costs for an SDS are about 120 Euro plus about 60 Euro for the driver PCB. The spare part costs for the new motors range from 15 Euro to 120 Euro (no driver PCB needed). Märklin's purchase prices are probably much lower than their spare part retail prices.

39010 with SDS: 399.95 Euro
39017 without SDS: 449.95 Euro => not the same price LOL

37900 with compact C Sine, no sound: 209.00 Euro
37907 with sound, no SDS: 299.95 Euro

39180 with SDS: 269.95 Euro
37767 without SDS: 269.95 Euro

39640 with SDS: 299.95 Euro
39644 without SDS: 329.95 Euro => not the same price LOL

39837 with SDS: 299.95 Euro
39840 without SDS: 299.95 Euro

And it was not just SDS to standard motor, there also was the transition from bell-shaped armature to standard motor.
Big Boy no longer runs as smooth as before, but kept the price.
Foumaro wrote that the new GG-1 is not as good as it used to be - but at least they reduced the price for that one.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Goofy  
#62 Posted : 18 December 2013 09:32:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post


I don't know if Maxon motors used by Brawa are 3 or 5 poles, but whatever they are the locos run smooth. The decoders are ESU and their locos use flywheels.



Brawa has Maxon motor 5 poles with single or double flywheels.
I use 2 rail locomotivs with Brawa models and they run good.
But 3 rail has better contact than what 2 rail does,because of difference with wheels contact on the rail.
With MM or and DCC on the 3 rail makes much better contact with the locomotivs,since all wheels on both rail has better contact while pickup shoe is laying on the stud contact which also makes better contact than what 2 rail can offers.
It´s all has to do with better motor and good decoder that makes big difference.



The pricing says everything.
Brawa builds to a standard; Marklin builds to a price.







No not exactly!
Marklin has standard by choise same models,while Brawa produce mostley new models which also cost more expensive than Marklins standard locomotivs.
Few of the Marklins models are rare expensive too.
Tell to Marklin why they did choised 3 pole motor and flywheel.
It´s to save money,but theirs standard locomotivs cost too.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline Goofy  
#63 Posted : 18 December 2013 09:35:06(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
By the way, others have said that the locos with the new motors are selling for the same price as the SDS ones. I don't see this. All locos that are now 37xxx instead of 39xxx are considereably cheaper, at least the ones I have bought recently are.
Some are cheaper, but without doing a statistics I think most kept their prices.

I think the spare part costs for an SDS are about 120 Euro plus about 60 Euro for the driver PCB. The spare part costs for the new motors range from 15 Euro to 120 Euro (no driver PCB needed). Märklin's purchase prices are probably much lower than their spare part retail prices.

39010 with SDS: 399.95 Euro
39017 without SDS: 449.95 Euro => not the same price LOL

37900 with compact C Sine, no sound: 209.00 Euro
37907 with sound, no SDS: 299.95 Euro

39180 with SDS: 269.95 Euro
37767 without SDS: 269.95 Euro

39640 with SDS: 299.95 Euro
39644 without SDS: 329.95 Euro => not the same price LOL

39837 with SDS: 299.95 Euro
39840 without SDS: 299.95 Euro

And it was not just SDS to standard motor, there also was the transition from bell-shaped armature to standard motor.
Big Boy no longer runs as smooth as before, but kept the price.
Foumaro wrote that the new GG-1 is not as good as it used to be - but at least they reduced the price for that one.


Few of the models with ex SDS motor has been changed to replacement with new motor,which results to cost more.
Give up Tom!
Marklin did choised to stop with SDS motor for one reason and it´s too expensive!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline NZMarklinist  
#64 Posted : 18 December 2013 10:29:34(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
Yes, those Einheits E-loks in their original SDS form w/ ESU decoders had set unsurpassable new standard to modern lok design.
I ranked them as the best modern models Marklin ever made....

I wouldn't touch any of the newer model with el-cheapo "whatever-the-f*-they-put-in-there" motor.
Hello, e-Bay or dealers that still have old stock...


I have for the past few months been actively searching and buying SDS motor lokos with a 39*** part number.
I have to replace the decoders with ESU V4s to eliminate the dreaded MFX, but I am very happy with what I have bought.



I am a bit that way inclined as well, but only buying the SDS model to fill a gap in my wish list as opposed to the current version. The good news is that models with SDS can easily have the decoder upgraded with a 21 pin V4, & I use a M4V4. Not so the old large C Sine motors but I have recently bought a few of those as well, namely the two German E94s and the DB BR182, I already have the DHL one, from 8 years ago.
I bought a 39121 this year, but I probably won't bother to upgrade the decoder as it runs well, and Eloc sounds arn't that big a deal as diesel or steam !
I didn't have any BR218s so I ordered both the 37764/8 models this year, and have only tested the 37764, I thought it might be just me, but it does not start so smoothly. Dissapointing when I bought them along with the three Dampfloks with MFX+ as well this year, thinking the Cab display might add some play interest to my layoutGlare
That said I like the convenience of MFX and find it easy enough, even with Marklin OEM decoders, to tune with my CS1R Smile
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline RayF  
#65 Posted : 18 December 2013 10:47:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Yes, I'm not sure why some of you feel so strongly against MFX. I really like the convenience of having the loco register itself. It takes away a lot of the work of entering locos into my MS2.

I change the trains on my small layout about once a week, and I run 4-5 locos on the layout, so I rely on the MFX to do the registration where it is available. For those that don't have MFX I choose the loco from the database if it is originally a digital loco, or keep the details on locomotive cards for those locos that I've converted myself. MFX means I don't have to hunt trhrough menus to get a loco on my list.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Goofy  
#66 Posted : 18 December 2013 11:06:13(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
When i read yours comments,i see disagreement about products and disapointed.
I wonder if i really shall start Marklin trains again and not keep on with the 2 rail... Huh
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline RayF  
#67 Posted : 18 December 2013 11:15:15(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
When i read yours comments,i see disagreement about products and disapointed.
I wonder if i really shall start Marklin trains again and not keep on with the 2 rail... Huh


Hi Anders. You'll find the same problems and questions come up whatever system or manufacturer you decide on.

If I were you I would buy a couple of AC locos and run them for a while to see if you like the experience. You can always sell them and go back to 2 rail if you don't enjoy it!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#68 Posted : 18 December 2013 11:20:55(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I'm not sure why some of you feel so strongly against MFX. I really like the convenience of having the loco register itself.


Same here!
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline jeehring  
#69 Posted : 18 December 2013 11:42:11(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
By the way.
one.


....Marklin did choised to stop with SDS motor for one reason and it´s too expensive!



Anders, you are right, absolutely !
But there is another reason (which has been reported to me by someone from Marklin about 2 years ago) .
The second reason is :
Marklin does not want - and never wanted - to depend on a single engine supplier. They have always taken care about it.
Depending on a single engine manufacturer puts them in a vulnerable position: out of stock risk - temporarily or definitively - due to the manufacturer. Manufacturer's unilateral decision to increase the price of motors, to modify specifications, etc. .... etc. ...
They absolutely insist on having multiple sources of supply . It's very important for them.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by jeehring
Offline Janne75  
#70 Posted : 18 December 2013 11:52:27(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi,

Why I personally like Märklin Mfx is that locomotives having it does register itself automatically. But what I not like in some Märklin Mfx decoders is their bad driving charasteristics vs. some older Märklin decoders. For example Märklin 6090x decoder equipped locomotives are usually excellent runners and so are many non Mfx C-Sinus older Märklin locomotives too. I would also like that Mfx decoders could be more free to adjust their properties like ESU decoders are. Märklin have decided to not let their customers modify everything with their Mfx decoder locomotives. It may be that this way they have some protection against many customer claims when customers have f*ucked up their loco settings. But factory reset CV 8 = 8 should cure even this, if I have understood right?

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline RayF  
#71 Posted : 18 December 2013 12:03:44(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Marklin decoders have been designed to be used with specific Marklin motors, so their regulation settings are set for these and no adjustment should be required. The more common cv's, such as acceleration delay, braking delay, maximum speed, sound volume, etc, are adjustable through the loco setup menu on your CS or MS

Understandably, ESU decoders which could be used in any number of diffrent motor configurations have the complete range of cv's accesible
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Janne75  
#72 Posted : 18 December 2013 12:14:13(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Marklin decoders have been designed to be used with specific Marklin motors, so their regulation settings are set for these and no adjustment should be required. The more common cv's, such as acceleration delay, braking delay, maximum speed, sound volume, etc, are adjustable through the loco setup menu on your CS or MS

Understandably, ESU decoders which could be used in any number of diffrent motor configurations have the complete range of cv's accesible


Yes, but I just wonder why for example different loco sounds individual levels can not be adjusted separatively? I would like it the way you could first adjust sound levels individually for different sounds and then use common sound volume adjustment to change the volume level in general. This way I could for example adjust some steam locos sound level lower and others higher.

I agree that no adjustment should be required as regulation settings cv values should be correct for the specific Märklin motor in the locomotive. But in some locomotives there is need to do some adjustments. I have many examples of Mfx locomotives which run perfectly, but there is some of them which could be running better and I would like to try to adjust some motor regulation cv settings.
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Janne75
Offline Goofy  
#73 Posted : 18 December 2013 12:39:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
When i read yours comments,i see disagreement about products and disapointed.
I wonder if i really shall start Marklin trains again and not keep on with the 2 rail... Huh


Hi Anders. You'll find the same problems and questions come up whatever system or manufacturer you decide on.

If I were you I would buy a couple of AC locos and run them for a while to see if you like the experience. You can always sell them and go back to 2 rail if you don't enjoy it!


Okey...i can try with Marklin again.
But i´m not return back to 2 rail.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#74 Posted : 18 December 2013 12:42:28(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Marklin decoders have been designed to be used with specific Marklin motors, so their regulation settings are set for these and no adjustment should be required. The more common cv's, such as acceleration delay, braking delay, maximum speed, sound volume, etc, are adjustable through the loco setup menu on your CS or MS

Understandably, ESU decoders which could be used in any number of diffrent motor configurations have the complete range of cv's accesible


If you have CS2,it stand in what CV configuration about Marklins decoder for just this kind of locomotiv.
So you can read in what regulation motor has.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline jeehring  
#75 Posted : 18 December 2013 13:44:09(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Excuse me everybody, IMHO the very last versions of MFX decoders are pretty good. ( since about mid 2011)
We have to remember one thing : by comparison with other train manufacturers, full Digital Marklin models are much less expensive than other manufacturers.Other manufacturers have to deal with other Brands of decoder. Marklin has its own types of decoder...

The only difference between Marklin decoders and ESU/Zimo DCC decoders is about their versatility: ESU's &Zimo's decoders offer many many accesses to tuning because they have to deal with the DCC world = wider variety of models from different Brands . Which is not the case for Marklin.

PS : I haven't read Ray's and Goofy's posts before I wrote mine. We are saying almost the same...sorry.

Edited by user 20 December 2013 12:15:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 4 users liked this useful post by jeehring
Offline biedmatt  
#76 Posted : 18 December 2013 13:55:36(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I'm not sure why some of you feel so strongly against MFX. I really like the convenience of having the loco register itself. It takes away a lot of the work of entering locos into my MS2.


This thread has exploded while I have been asleep.

Auto register is absolutely fantastic, no doubt.
ESU V4 decoders will auto register all fields via DCC through the "Railcom plus" feature.
No need to enter each manually.

http://www.digitrainworl...com-plus-what-are-these/
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline RayF  
#77 Posted : 18 December 2013 14:10:37(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I'm not sure why some of you feel so strongly against MFX. I really like the convenience of having the loco register itself. It takes away a lot of the work of entering locos into my MS2.


This thread has exploded while I have been asleep.

Auto register is absolutely fantastic, no doubt.
ESU V4 decoders will auto register all fields via DCC through the "Railcom" feature.
No need to enter each manually.

http://www.digitrainworl...com-plus-what-are-these/


Does this work on a Marklin controller? I think they don't have railcom.

One possible solution is to change all your locomotives to DCC decoders and control everything with an ESU controller, but for me that would represent a huge expense and waste of time and money already spent on Marklin controllers and decoders which would be redundant. Marklin is the main focus of the hobby for me so I would rule railcom out, when Marklin's MFX does the same thing and already comes in most new locos.

However, the choice is there for those who want it.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline biedmatt  
#78 Posted : 18 December 2013 14:26:25(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I'm not sure why some of you feel so strongly against MFX. I really like the convenience of having the loco register itself. It takes away a lot of the work of entering locos into my MS2.


This thread has exploded while I have been asleep.

Auto register is absolutely fantastic, no doubt.
ESU V4 decoders will auto register all fields via DCC through the "Railcom" feature.
No need to enter each manually.

http://www.digitrainworl...com-plus-what-are-these/


Does this work on a Marklin controller? I think they don't have railcom.

One possible solution is to change all your locomotives to DCC decoders and control everything with an ESU controller, but for me that would represent a huge expense and waste of time and money already spent on Marklin controllers and decoders which would be redundant. Marklin is the main focus of the hobby for me so I would rule railcom out, when Marklin's MFX does the same thing and already comes in most new locos.

However, the choice is there for those who want it.


I do not imagine Railcom plus is supported by M controllers. I am using the ECoS 50200. I intentionally chose this controller instead of the 60215 because of the problems I see folks having with their MFX accessories. Software and hardware issues can be extremely frustrating. Who's the guy sending 20+ MFX signals back to M? He is also not the only one who has these (two years and counting) problems. I'll hunt out the thread and link it. I also chose the ESU controller because of M's "Not invented here" attitude. They lock themselves into a situation where it then appears they would prefer to drink acid rather than admit a mistake, change it and go on. Other accessory manufacturers do not support MFX. Sometimes the better accessory is not M, but someone else. I think we can all agree M is not #1 across the entire model railroad spectrum. I want the option to chose those manufacturers. An international format like DCC makes that possible. Software and hardware is the last place I want a manufacturer so inflexible to change.

Besides, the ESU decoders are better anyway. ;)

Edit: I just remembered, "the guy" is Charles Sharpe.
It appears Charles is using all M equipment including controller, booster, etal.
He is not the only one having trouble either.
https://www.marklin-user...-Signals.aspx#post428270

Edited by user 18 December 2013 19:40:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline TimR  
#79 Posted : 20 December 2013 16:46:01(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Haven't logon since two days ago...

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

I think the spare part costs for an SDS are about 120 Euro plus about 60 Euro for the driver PCB. The spare part costs for the new motors range from 15 Euro to 120 Euro (no driver PCB needed). Märklin's purchase prices are probably much lower than their spare part retail prices.


I wrote down the spare part price for Sinus motors a few years ago...
You can still search them too on Google, some dealers still have them in stock.

214168 Large Sinus motor + Decoder (Re460-specific) = 160 Eur (incl VAT)

230592 SDS motor for ALL 4-axle pwrd locos = 60 Eur (incl VAT) -- some dealers still have it for 40 Eur
213479 SDS motor for steamers /2-axle pwrd loco = 96 Eur (incl VAT) -- I think it used to be 80 Eurs, but Marklin price went up in the last year
102375 PCB SDS for BR218 (model specific part) = 90 Eur (incl VAT)

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I'm not sure why some of you feel so strongly against MFX. I really like the convenience of having the loco register itself. It takes away a lot of the work of entering locos into my MS2.


The answer is simple...
Firstly, everything that MFx can do, DCC can always do it better. Matt has highlighted some of these on his posts above.. Loco auto-register? Railcom Plus can do it in a matter of seconds...

Secondly, as already mentioned above too, customers will also be isolated by the plethora of more options available in the DCC world.
A few years down the line, DCC users will look at MFx, and laugh.... "So Marklin MFx can only do that much? In this day and age? LoL!"

Additional comment to the previous:
MFx was not a proven technology when it was first introduced in 2005/6.
The fact is the first MFx decoders are made by ESU - there were some kinks at first. But after ESU fixed them, Marklin decided to go alone with it..
... which create more bugs...
I haven't bought any new Marklin so far, but it look like from what everyone posted, they have finally got it right.
So not unlike other Marklin "innovations", customers again become guinea pigs for their long winded experiment, until they got it right.
... that leaves a sour taste for many...
End of Additional Comments

Finally, a quick review for business strategy wise...

Which one would be cheaper, more innovative, and would provide a better result?

Create a new look-a-likey system to DCC from scratch, then painstakingly try to compete feature-to-feature with DCC.....(and still lose out)
...OR....
Create Marklin DCC+ by adding interesting features that are exclusively Marklin...

Marklin DCC+ would have less bugs to deal with, as it is based on proven technology, unlike Marklin MFx from 2006 - 2009 period
they would also have been cheaper to manufacture (arguably cheaper vs MFX adventure),
if they make enough innovation, they can compete to make inroads against Zimo, ESU, or other brands,
M* DCC+ can also place their Trix DC brand better...

... and to top it off, Marklin DCC+ would still be the dominant decoder in Marklin world.... since unlike DC loco, every AC loco will need to come with decoder by default.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TimR
Offline RayF  
#80 Posted : 20 December 2013 17:39:29(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Tim, please make it clear thar these are your opinions.
There always at least two ways to see a problem, and what looks obvious to you is not necessarily so for all.
My opinion is that, on the question of backwards compatibility it is better for Märklin to stick to their own protocols. I personally would hate to have to install over a hundred dcc decoders to make my locos work in dcc.

...and no, I'm not going to start a discussion on this point, because it's obvious that there are two firmly entrenched camps on mfx vs dcc and neither side is going to convince the other!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline mbarreto  
#81 Posted : 20 December 2013 17:47:28(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

Hi,

This topic is growing fast and it is hard for me to read it all. I hope in the next days I will.

Just want to say that although Braw* locos run great and look superb, the plastics they use are cheap (although they price high their models). Also a not so good thing I noticed in some of the models of that brand is the painting. The colors seem good, but sometimes the paint disappear. I don't know if it is due to bad cleaning before the painting or if they don't let the paint dry enough or what else.

I don't know if it was already done before, but I would like a pool in this forum for election of the preferred motor. I will vote for SDS.



Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline jeehring  
#82 Posted : 20 December 2013 18:20:04(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post

Hi,

This topic is growing fast and it is hard for me to read it all. I hope in the next days I will.

Just want to say that although Braw* locos run great and look superb, the plastics they use are cheap (although they price high their models). Also a not so good thing I noticed in some of the models of that brand is the painting. The colors seem good, but sometimes the paint disappear. I don't know if it is due to bad cleaning before the painting or if they don't let the paint dry enough or what else.

I don't know if it was already done before, but I would like a pool in this forum for election of the preferred motor. I will vote for SDS.




I don't know about the most recent models, I can just say that it was a period during which Brawa models
were equipped with cheap & poor motors & mechanics...this can be checked if you take their models from about 2000/2004..
I also had a look Inside a BR06 from early 2000...mechanical parts , including the motor, showing a very ordinary appearance.
Offline Goofy  
#83 Posted : 20 December 2013 18:39:25(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Hasn´t Marklin mfx decoder become better today than for 7 years ago?
I did tested Marklins first generation CS1 and mfx decoder and there was some bugs.
Today i have seen new locomotivs with 3 pole motor and flywheel works good and mfx decoder today works good too.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#84 Posted : 20 December 2013 18:51:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Hasn´t Marklin mfx decoder become better today than for 7 years ago?
The first Märklin mfx decoders came 2009 (before that, there were only ESU mfx decoders). The early Märklin mfx decoders have a few bugs.

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Today i have seen new locomotivs with 3 pole motor and flywheel works good and mfx decoder today works good too.
Many say they run good. Some say some older models ran better.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline 3rail4life  
#85 Posted : 20 December 2013 19:18:23(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Hasn´t Marklin mfx decoder become better today than for 7 years ago?
I did tested Marklins first generation CS1 and mfx decoder and there was some bugs.
Today i have seen new locomotivs with 3 pole motor and flywheel works good and mfx decoder today works good too.


I do not have any of the older mfx models to compare with the newer models I have, but I must say I am very pleased with the new ones, they seem to be very reliable, offer excellent running characteristics, and are very easy to setup. There is definitely something to be said for putting a new loco on the track and having it set up automatically with all the icons, functions and being good to go. ThumpUp

As far as the three pole motors go, I prefer the high quality motors that need no service, or the traditional replaceable brush types rather the throw away types being used in some of the models today. My BR 94, from what I have learned, has one of the disposable types, but it is a fantastic model with great sound and operating qualities, so no regrets. If the motor ever wears out, I guess thirty Euro's is not too much to pay for a new one...

Gordon
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by 3rail4life
Offline pa-pauls  
#86 Posted : 20 December 2013 21:35:41(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,841
Location: Norway
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Hasn´t Marklin mfx decoder become better today than for 7 years ago?
I did tested Marklins first generation CS1 and mfx decoder and there was some bugs.
Today i have seen new locomotivs with 3 pole motor and flywheel works good and mfx decoder today works good too.


Happy 50th Birthday Anders ThumpUp
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by pa-pauls
Offline Webmaster  
#87 Posted : 20 December 2013 21:56:21(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Well, this is totally off topic...

The biggest "scam" was when Germany went to the Euro as a currency instead of Deutsche Mark.

Suddenly, the models cost almost the same number in Euros as they did in Marks... Which meant almost a doubled price...

But Märklin were not alone to see this opportunity...
Roco - who used to cost about half to 2/3rds the Märklin price, suddenly upped their price level to "Märklin prices" too in Euros...

No comments needed on this off-topic post, but high prices vs quality & production costs are decided by management - and
if there are more bean counters in management than guys who know the basic values of a brand, quality will suffer...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by Webmaster
Offline kbvrod  
#88 Posted : 20 December 2013 23:26:33(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Well, this is totally off topic...

The biggest "scam" was when Germany went to the Euro as a currency instead of Deutsche Mark.

Suddenly, the models cost almost the same number in Euros as they did in Marks... Which meant almost a doubled price...

But Märklin were not alone to see this opportunity...
Roco - who used to cost about half to 2/3rds the Märklin price, suddenly upped their price level to "Märklin prices" too in Euros...

No comments needed on this off-topic post, but high prices vs quality & production costs are decided by management - and
if there are more bean counters in management than guys who know the basic values of a brand, quality will suffer...


No comment!!
Offline H0  
#89 Posted : 20 December 2013 23:57:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
No comments needed on this off-topic post, but high prices vs quality & production costs are decided by management - and
if there are more bean counters in management than guys who know the basic values of a brand, quality will suffer...
Apropos value of the brand.

"Jetzt geht es darum, den guten Ruf von Märklin wiederherzustellen. Das ist aber eine Marathonstrecke. Im Moment sind wir erst bei der Hälfte angekommen." (Michael Sieber, Chef von Märklin)
Source:
http://www.br.de/nachric...nachtsgeschaeft-100.html

Google translation: "The task now is to restore the reputation of Märklin. But this is a marathon. At the moment we only arrived at the half."

I'm afraid they have accomplished less than half of the task. And the new motors are IMHO a giant leap in the wrong direction.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#90 Posted : 21 December 2013 08:00:55(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
But Marklin did had problem with the economy before did become bankrupt.
Don´t 3 pole motors make sure as result to save money for company sake??
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#91 Posted : 21 December 2013 10:00:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Don´t 3 pole motors make sure as result to save money for company sake??
Yes, they don't. Unhappy customers may not come back. The majority is (still) happy with the new motors and increased profits from the remaining customers may compensate the loss of unhappy customers, but cheap motors that turn some customers away from Märklin may not be the very best idea for a company that wants to grow - at least not in the long run.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline H0  
#92 Posted : 22 December 2013 11:11:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I don't know if we had this already on this forum, but here's a post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212

It is a three-pole motor.
A user on Stummi's Forum published an E-Mail reply from Märklin where they confirm that the new E 93 will have the same standard motor that was already used for BR 94.5-17 and V 100.
http://stummiforum.de/vi...c.php?p=1115204#p1115204

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Goofy  
#93 Posted : 23 December 2013 06:36:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
There is some Brawa models has 3 pole motor and flywheel and they works excellent too with three rail track.
I did had once Brawa T3 for two rail,but it was bad contact with wheels on the track!!
So Brawa use cheap motor too.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline TimR  
#94 Posted : 23 December 2013 07:35:14(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I don't know if we had this already on this forum, but here's a post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212

It is a three-pole motor.
A user on Stummi's Forum published an E-Mail reply from Märklin where they confirm that the new E 93 will have the same standard motor that was already used for BR 94.5-17 and V 100.
http://stummiforum.de/vi...c.php?p=1115204#p1115204



I'm amazed!

For the first time in history, MaTrix proudly presents... an insider model with 3-pole... er, wait! Correction, ... El-cheapo can motor??

That will hit a new low....

I hope the savings they made in (the motor deparment of) such delicate model will translate into a far cheaper price..... like 100 Eur?

There were times when Insider models were those magnificent, highly detailed steamers,
matched with an equally sophisticated, and proudly presented... SDS motor.

In the future, we might need to just switch to Piko instead, where at least price meets expectations....
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline H0  
#95 Posted : 23 December 2013 08:37:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I don't know how many poles the famous E 17 from 2011 has. It could be the first three-pole Insider model of this century. BR 403/404, BR 56.2-8, and BR 58.10-21 are other three-pole candidates.

The majority is happy with the new motors.
A minority was unhappy about the new trains because they are only almost as good as the older trains - and now they have the answer why.

And when a Märklin model with a RRP of 280 Euro drives worse than a Piko model for around 120 Euro, then Piko is a candidate for a growing share of my MRR budget.
A metal body is only a secondary virtue for me, motor and gear come first.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline H0  
#96 Posted : 23 December 2013 08:53:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Many folks on Stummi's Forum report that the Märklin three-pole motors work fine with ESU decoders (but were not acceptable with the factory-installed Märklin decoders).

All HAG locos have three-pole motors - and those are dang expensive motors of high quality.

There are good three-pole motors, there are cheap five-pole motors. And it's the combination of motor and decoder that counts.

Piko uses three-pole motors - but locos come at a reasonable price and the combination of motor and decoder works good enough for me.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#97 Posted : 23 December 2013 09:44:59(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Does this work on a Marklin controller? I think they don't have railcom.


No, not on any Marklin controller as per the condition Marklin sold them in. Obviously the Ecos does, and the CS1 does, but only if the CS1R software is applied (still waiting for mine!), and you use an Ecosboost booster, as the CS1/CS1R does not have the required hardware to support Railcom.
Offline RayF  
#98 Posted : 23 December 2013 10:14:02(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
OK, so my point stands. mfx comes as standard with all current Marklin controllers (not My World) and most new and recent locomotives. Why would I want to rip it all out and change to DCC? I don't see any advantage in the change at all.

About the motors themselves, I keep reading Tom's posts about Stummi's grumpy old men complaining that they don't run as well with Marklin decoders. I would like to see a quantitative and objective comparison test on this, as my own experience with this year's models is quite favourable.

How do they not run well? Is the running jerky? Is the acceleration not smooth? Is the low speed not adequate? Come on guys, give me something concrete to compare.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline RayF  
#99 Posted : 23 December 2013 10:20:05(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Why has this thread not been merged with the "3 pole motors" thread? The same information is appearing in both!

Talk about repetition!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#100 Posted : 23 December 2013 10:37:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
About the motors themselves, I keep reading Tom's posts about Stummi's grumpy old men complaining that they don't run as well with Marklin decoders.
On Stummi's Forum there are also lots of grumpy old men who say that Märklin is always right and that the new locos run as good and as smooth as the old locos.

Difficult to measure the difference, but some feel it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Users browsing this topic
5 Pages<1234>»
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.955 seconds.