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Offline mjrallare  
#1 Posted : 05 October 2013 14:42:50(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
Hi!

I don't have a permanent layout (yet) Crying , therefore I hardly run my locos at all. But hopefully I will have one in the future and therefore I'm a bit worried when I follow discussions on Stummis forum about the motors in newer Märklin locos.

Exactly which motors do Märklin use today? Are there any standard-motors or is it a new motor for (nearly) every new loco? What is a "hochleistungsantriebe" really? This name seems to be used for nearly every Märklin-motor. Confused

Before we had the 5-pole "HLA", then we got the different Sinus-motors. What replaced the last SDS-motor? I've read about different bell-shaped motors, but they seem to have all come and gone.

When the 5-pole "HLA" and the Sinus-motors were introduced they were followed by marketing which by using numbers and graphs told us how great and superior they were. About newer motors from Märklin you hardly see any information at all. Is it a case of "the less told the better"? Hope not!Mellow

In Märklin Magazin 4/2011 they tell us a little about one motor. They don't say much but in the text it says something like "of course high demands on a motors characteristics is reflected in it's cost." What to think then, when one motor in the 37753 costs 15 euros as a spare-part? Why don't we see any proud promotion from Märklin about their motors any more. They've written a lot about the new decoders but I can't find much about the motors. Or have I just missed it?

Would be grateful if someone could bring some light to the matter.

/Torbjörn
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 05 October 2013 15:15:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: mjrallare Go to Quoted Post
Exactly which motors do Märklin use today? Are there any standard-motors or is it a new motor for (nearly) every new loco?
This was also discussed on this forum. Mostly they use can motors for their new locos - and when you check the explosion diagrams you find many different spare part numbers for the motors.
The can motors are "maintenance free" - when the brushes are worn, you throw them away and buy a new motor.
Some locos have motors with bell-shaped armatures, but in some cases they were already replaced by cheaper can motors.

Originally Posted by: mjrallare Go to Quoted Post
What is a "hochleistungsantriebe" really?
HLA stands for Hochleistungsantrieb (high efficiency propulsion). Märklin uses this term for all motors with a permanent magnet.
Some use this term only for the motors of 60901/3/4 sets (or current 60941/3/4 sets).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 06 October 2013 10:20:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mjrallare Go to Quoted Post
[...] I'm a bit worried when I follow discussions on Stummis forum about the motors in newer Märklin locos.
There is a discussion in the Dm3 thread saying that the Dm3 came with three-pole motors (like the new V 100). I have neither of those and cannot say whether they have three-pole or five-pole motors.
I noticed that some new M* locos get going with a little kick or jump. This was also reported against the Dm3 - and on Stummi's Forum they blame the three-pole motor (but maybe the load regulation of the new M* decoders is to blame, that would be my guess).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 10 October 2013 23:54:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

I don't know if we had this already on this forum, but here's a post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212

It is a three-pole motor.

There was a time when they advertised the SDS as the premium motor for decades to come.
There was a time when they advertised "5-pole skewed can motors".
Now they advertise "high-efficiency propulsion systems with flywheels".

Three-pole motors are OK as long as motor and decoder yield good results. The discussion on Stummi's Forum is about whether they do or not.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 26 November 2013 16:56:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
The new BR 45 from Märklin 37455 also comes with a new type of motor. Earlier models had coreless motors (with bell-shaped armature), while the new model has a three-pole DC motor.

Users who use signals to cut off the track power complain that this new model stops very abruptly, much quicker than earlier BR 45.
With digital operation on clean tracks, the acceleration and braking delay of the decoder will be active and stop the loco smoothly.

One user on Stummi's Forum reported that the new loco runs almost as good as earlier BR 45s, but the person with the cut-off signals is not really happy with the new motor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jeehring  
#6 Posted : 08 December 2013 12:02:45(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Marklin is to press news items 2014 due 14 January 2014 - Information from Club 6/2013 magazine.

But small list before date above.


BR151 Electric return to production - 151 033 in new SRI blue livery (Special edition?).


...with a cheap 3 poles motor ?...Mad Bored Sad Sad Sad


Maerklin becomes more & more arrogant ...
They have always been a bit but at least at this time there was
a quality design ....
Customers should put pressure to be well informed about the products they buy.
In the description of products we have no information on
engine type, number of poles, etc ...
Remember all the information we found on catalogues 12 years ago about technology....
On the period before 2005, in comparison to the rest of the Market Maerklin products were unique....
Today they are just similar to Roco or Piko...
On new steamer models the only difference is a tube of metal instead of a tube of plastic as a boiler , that's all. (almost all: Maerklin is still 3 rails)
About the last Insider steamer model (G10) : have you noticed that the machine is much less heavy than the tender....

Historically, whenever Marklin wanted to be like everyone else & to do as the others they have had problems !(even serious problems sometimes !)
But it seems that Maerklin management & marketing have a short memory. (+ a great lack of imagination...)

Edited by user 09 December 2013 11:24:38(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 08 December 2013 12:28:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
...with a cheap 3 poles motor?
Read the product description carefully. If it reads "four axles powered" than caveat emptor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jvuye  
#8 Posted : 09 December 2013 18:33:57(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Marklin is to press news items 2014 due 14 January 2014 - Information from Club 6/2013 magazine.

But small list before date above.


BR151 Electric return to production - 151 033 in new SRI blue livery (Special edition?).


...with a cheap 3 poles motor ?...Mad Bored Sad Sad Sad

Maerklin becomes more & more arrogant ...
They have always been a bit but at least at this time there was
a quality design ....
Customers should put pressure to be well informed about the products they buy.
In the description of products we have no information on
engine type, number of poles, etc ...
[/i]


Quite frankly I don't understand what's the matter with your "ever-going-never-stopping-unrelenting-unstoppable" ranting over Märklin current quality!Scared Confused

The latest locs I have bought in the last couple of years , an E10, and E 17, an E 50, the dual crocodiles set, the ET 403 "Donald Duck", the Borsig edition P10 and a few more which were **all** without exception absolutely perfect.

I have been collecting Märklin since 1951, and servicing (including professionally) all the way from the early 1970's.
There was indeed a low in the late 70's early 80's with plastic bodies, noisy motors, poorly manufactured gears and sloppy transmission assemblies.

And if we can't deny a few recent problems (like the Zinkpest infected Köf and Seetal Krokodile, a specific "made in china- be prepared for the consequences" issue) the last few years production have been trouble free...

I happen to have some insight on the current assembly line, and can assure you you won't find anything coming even close, at **any* price.

I even took the time to take apart a few of these locos , measured mechanical tolerances, tested traction capabilities (on a real layout, not on a test bench) and must say they are the only ones who can run **for hours on end** long trains (10-12 coaches or 25+ freight cars) without ever missing a beat.

Those who have known me for a long time will tell you that I am far from writing a blank check for whatever Märklin has brought to market and/or in their ways of treating customers and dealers when a problem arises.

But that's a "commercial" discussion...

Now that I have got that off my chest, I'll go back upstairs and run a few of my well running Märklin pretty trains.Smile
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline danmarklinman  
#9 Posted : 09 December 2013 20:52:08(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,377
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Marklin is to press news items 2014 due 14 January 2014 - Information from Club 6/2013 magazine.

But small list before date above.


BR151 Electric return to production - 151 033 in new SRI blue livery (Special edition?).


...with a cheap 3 poles motor ?...Mad Bored Sad Sad Sad

Maerklin becomes more & more arrogant ...
They have always been a bit but at least at this time there was
a quality design ....
Customers should put pressure to be well informed about the products they buy.
In the description of products we have no information on
engine type, number of poles, etc ...
[/i]


Quite frankly I don't understand what's the matter with your "ever-going-never-stopping-unrelenting-unstoppable" ranting over Märklin current quality!Scared Confused

The latest locs I have bought in the last couple of years , an E10, and E 17, an E 50, the dual crocodiles set, the ET 403 "Donald Duck", the Borsig edition P10 and a few more which were **all** without exception absolutely perfect.

I have been collecting Märklin since 1951, and servicing (including professionally) all the way from the early 1970's.
There was indeed a low in the late 70's early 80's with plastic bodies, noisy motors, poorly manufactured gears and sloppy transmission assemblies.

And if we can't deny a few recent problems (like the Zinkpest infected Köf and Seetal Krokodile, a specific "made in china- be prepared for the consequences" issue) the last few years production have been trouble free...

I happen to have some insight on the current assembly line, and can assure you you won't find anything coming even close, at **any* price.

I even took the time to take apart a few of these locos , measured mechanical tolerances, tested traction capabilities (on a real layout, not on a test bench) and must say they are the only ones who can run **for hours on end** long trains (10-12 coaches or 25+ freight cars) without ever missing a beat.

Those who have known me for a long time will tell you that I am far from writing a blank check for whatever Märklin has brought to market and/or in their ways of treating customers and dealers when a problem arises.

But that's a "commercial" discussion...

Now that I have got that off my chest, I'll go back upstairs and run a few of my well running Märklin pretty trains.Smile



Very well put thank you. Wink
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
Wiking model car Fan
Faller fan including car system
Instagram: marklin1978
Wiking fan
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Offline pa-pauls  
#10 Posted : 09 December 2013 22:46:10(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,840
Location: Norway
Originally Posted by: danmarklinman Go to Quoted Post
Very well put thank you. Wink


Indeed ThumpUp
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 09 December 2013 23:33:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
The latest locs I have bought in the last couple of years , an E10, and E 17, an E 50, the dual crocodiles set, the ET 403 "Donald Duck", the Borsig edition P10 and a few more which were **all** without exception absolutely perfect.
My E 10.3, E 10.12, and E 50 are very good. They all have ESU decoders and SDS.
I'm somewhat disappointed by the E 17 and even more by the Lollo 37740.

The uproar on Stummi's Forum (by a minority) about the new three-pole motors is mainly about the BR 94.5, the new V 100, or the Lollo - and the new Dm3.
Did you watch this video from 7:20 through 7:30? What a smooth runner. Confused
https://www.youtube.com/...&v=2KYoPYaFQTw#t=439

It seems the new three-pole motors came mainly with new 2012/2013 models. Models from 2011 and earlier had better motors - and not all models from 2012/2013 have three-pole motors.
The problem exists with some locos produced this year or last year. So most locos bought in the last couple of years will still have better motors.
The product database only shows "controlled high efficiency propulsion" for many new items because many nice adjectives (like "five-pole", "skewed armature" or "bell-shaped armature") are no longer applicable.

There's a poll on Stummi's forum. There are only 203 votes - 17 % are happy with the new three-pole motors, 40 % want the five-pole motors back, 43 % would prefer motors with bell-shaped armature.
With only 203 votes this poll is not representative.

I decide what I buy with my money. It won't be Mother M's new E 93.
You decide what you buy.

See also:
https://www.marklin-user...n-motors.aspx#post424545
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline CarlosAlberto  
#12 Posted : 10 December 2013 00:42:57(UTC)
CarlosAlberto

Portugal   
Joined: 04/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 91
Location: Portugal
It seems the new three-pole motors came mainly with new 2012/2013 models. Models from 2011 and earlier had better motors - and not all models from 2012/2013 have three-pole motors.

Hi,


At M*'s webpage, these are some V100 locomotive caratheristics...

It should means that is a 5-pole engine, not a 3-pole... What can i believe?? Confused

I only knew 3-pole engine in analogic locomotives, by now i don't like them anymore...
CarlosAlberto attached the following image(s):
Marklin1.jpg
Regards
Carlos
... 51 years living with Marklin at my side.
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 10 December 2013 08:27:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: CarlosAlberto Go to Quoted Post
At M*'s webpage, these are some V100 locomotive caratheristics...
The icon means nothing, the phrase "controlled high-efficiency propulsion with a flywheel" only means you get a DC motor with permanent magnet and flywheel - it doesn't mean you get a five-pole motor.

That's part of the problem: all models are announced with "controlled high-efficiency propulsion" only and you no longer know what you will get.
Ask them how many poles the motor of the V 100 does have - and probably they will reply that they don't know ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline foumaro  
#14 Posted : 10 December 2013 08:34:36(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
The problem will find sollution when someone open the new BR45 37455 and make a photo of the motor.
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 10 December 2013 08:59:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
The motor thread contains a link to Stummi's forum where you can see a photo of the disassembled motor of a Märklin BR 94.5. Surprise, surprise - there are only three poles.
And there is the same 5-pole icon in the product description. OK, the RRP is only €329.95.

Here's a link to the post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 10 December 2013 09:36:10(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
If you tell to Marklin,by not produce 3 pole motor or SDS,they perhaps listen.
It´s customer which decides if Marklin are good or not by producing good or bad locomotivs that makes a big difference!!
It´s fact that counts.
Marklin did learn to avoid fiasco...
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline jvuye  
#17 Posted : 10 December 2013 11:39:50(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The motor thread contains a link to Stummi's forum where you can see a photo of the disassembled motor of a Märklin BR 94.5. Surprise, surprise - there are only three poles.
And there is the same 5-pole icon in the product description. OK, the RRP is only €329.95.

Here's a link to the post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212

Thanks Tom for pointing this one to us!

Well, if that is the type of "el cheapo" motor Mârklin is putting in some of their so called up-scale loks, we should indeed protest violently.
There is a precedent: the red Arrow railcar had a similar Buhler motor, very noisy and highly unreliable.

During my Märklin Service career until 2005 , I replaced **dozens** of them.

The problem was so prominent that I advised my clients to let me install a nice little Faulhaber motor upgrade instead.
The plastic gears in the same model were also a piece of junk, needing multiple replacements, until I decided to replace them with brass gears of my own fabrication.

But that was in the 1980's!!

Making a mistake is human. repeat it is plain stupid!

Time for a consumers' well worded **Letter of protest!**, no?

Let's write up a petition (English, German, French, Spanish) post it on the web, get as many people as possible to sign up and present it to Märklin's management.
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 10 December 2013 11:49:20(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Seems to be a retrograde step putting 3 pole motors in new loks, that would be like replacing our cars with Ford Model T's!

If Marklin is looking for cheap motors, why not stick with the DCM motors - they are proven and reliable and parts are readily available (yes some loks with DCM are noisy, but some aren't, and at least they still work)?

I hope this is not due to the influence of the new owners.
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 10 December 2013 12:08:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
If Marklin is looking for cheap motors, why not stick with the DCM motors
Funny thing is: the five-pole DCM armature cost €29.50 as a spare part. You can get the whole 60941 motor for €29.50.
You can get the motor of the Dm3 for €15 as a spare part.

So obviously trusty old five-pole DCM is too expensive and they can save a few bucks with the new maintenance-free can motors (no user-serviceable parts inside Cursing ).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#20 Posted : 10 December 2013 12:37:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The motor thread contains a link to Stummi's forum where you can see a photo of the disassembled motor of a Märklin BR 94.5. Surprise, surprise - there are only three poles.
And there is the same 5-pole icon in the product description. OK, the RRP is only €329.95.

Here's a link to the post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212


It looks similar as Rocos 5 pole skew motor.
One notice about Marklins 3 pole motor...it´s not the same as the old 3 pole rotor motor which was worse.
I´m not sure if this new 3 pole motor equals as 5 pole DCM motor.
Note here too,that there is brasswheel with 3 pole motor.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Frankenbahner  
#21 Posted : 10 December 2013 14:55:36(UTC)
Frankenbahner


Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 625
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
Like any other brand on the markets, Märklin did always have its advantages and disadvantages. Like every other model train firm, Märklin did always have certain quality problems. This does not necessarily mean poorly manufactured items, but also items which were far from being state-of-the-art.

Märklin stuck to tin-plate much longer than any other firm. Okay, that's not a quality problem. But in the 1960s, nicely detailed plastic coaches with interior furnishings became standard, while Märklin still presented poorly detailed tin-plate coaches which didn't have any furnishings at all as new toolings! They could have provided their tin-plate models with more details, but they just haven't...

At the same time, Fleischmann presented nicely detailed steamers such as the BR 01 and BR 50 with lots of really fine details. But what did Märklin? Their new BR 38 model presented at the same time looked like as it came from a tooling from the late 1940s or early 1950s. It came with molded headlights and without any brake rods.

Also in the 1960s, many Märkliners changed to 2-rail DC because they had grown tired of the outdated M-tracks. Märklin realised this much too late. If K-tracks would have come earlier, many of these model train enthusiasts would have stayed with Märklin.

In the 1970s, Märklin introdouced more plastic coaches, but detailing of these coaches remained poor. Even the quality of printing (i.e. lettering) did not always match standards set by Märklin themselves before.

In the 1980s, Märklin became a digital pioneer. But in the 1990s and early 2000s, they just forgot to further develop their digital technology. ESU and Uhlenbrock set new standards at the same time. Decoders became smaller in size, but could handle more adresses. Compared to this, Märklin's decoders were still "giants" not fitting into small locos, and could still handle only 80 adresses.

Other firms had similar problems. As Fleischmann became an expert for H0 gauge steamers, at the same time detailing of their coaches remained poor. And Roco? In their early years, they used to much plastic. Eventually, they turned to more metal parts.

But don't forget: it was Märklin who was one of the "plastic pioneers" in the 1950s. Their BR 89 and BR 24 are the best known examples for this. From the 1960s until the 1990s, Märklin presented a lot of nicely detailed locos which had "only" a plastic body. And don't forget all their excellent plastic freight cars!

This metal ideology came only with Wolfgang Topp in the 1990s. But he was also the man who turned Märklin into an "exclusive" premium brand for adult collectors, focusing on retirees and neglecting young customers. All the years before, however, Märklin had always been a firm providing affordable (and reliable) items for a family hobby, a hobby for people of all ages. Just as the other "big players" such as Roco, Trix or Fleischmann did back then. That's what Märklin should become again!

Regards,
Florian
H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
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Offline danmarklinman  
#22 Posted : 10 December 2013 16:03:29(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,377
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The motor thread contains a link to Stummi's forum where you can see a photo of the disassembled motor of a Märklin BR 94.5. Surprise, surprise - there are only three poles.
And there is the same 5-pole icon in the product description. OK, the RRP is only €329.95.

Here's a link to the post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212


It looks similar as Rocos 5 pole skew motor.
One notice about Marklins 3 pole motor...it´s not the same as the old 3 pole rotor motor which was worse.
I´m not sure if this new 3 pole motor equals as 5 pole DCM motor.
Note here too,that there is brasswheel with 3 pole motor.



My old z gauge runs fine with a 3 pole motor. If the motors are new, do they still run well!
I am myself just a little tired now of the forum thing. It does seem to attract grumps and those who wish to point wrong things about models you may have which destroys your interest in what you have, even if your model runs well. The votes on forums ect are a valuable way perhaps of making up your mind about buying your next model. But of course. One mans meet is another mans poison.
As I like what I have, detailed sound and basic range Marklin I will carry on with it, I have tried others but there not for me.
So maybe I will stick my head in the Marklin mag not the forum as it's putting me of my hobby
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
Wiking model car Fan
Faller fan including car system
Instagram: marklin1978
Wiking fan
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Offline jeehring  
#23 Posted : 10 December 2013 16:39:43(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The motor thread contains a link to Stummi's forum where you can see a photo of the disassembled motor of a Märklin BR 94.5. Surprise, surprise - there are only three poles.
And there is the same 5-pole icon in the product description. OK, the RRP is only €329.95.

Here's a link to the post on Stummi's Forum that shows the motor of the BR 94.5-17 disassembled:
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1051212#p1051212

Thanks Tom for pointing this one to us!

Well, if that is the type of "el cheapo" motor Mârklin is putting in some of their so called up-scale loks, we should indeed protest violently.
There is a precedent: the red Arrow railcar had a similar Buhler motor, very noisy and highly unreliable.

During my Märklin Service career until 2005 , I replaced **dozens** of them.

The problem was so prominent that I advised my clients to let me install a nice little Faulhaber motor upgrade instead.
The plastic gears in the same model were also a piece of junk, needing multiple replacements, until I decided to replace them with brass gears of my own fabrication.

But that was in the 1980's!!

Making a mistake is human. repeat it is plain stupid!

Time for a consumers' well worded **Letter of protest!**, no?

Let's write up a petition (English, German, French, Spanish) post it on the web, get as many people as possible to sign up and present it to Märklin's management.


.....Quite frankly I don't understand what's the matter with your "ever-going-never-stopping-unrelenting-unstoppable" ranting over Märklin (...) quality!.....
etc...etc...etc...
BigGrin
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Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 10 December 2013 17:00:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
All my HAG locos have three-pole motors. They all run very good with their ESU decoders (ESU V3 or V4).

The problem is not the count of poles in a motor.

One problem: Decoder. Three-pole motors need a suitable decoder. The current M* mfx decoders are IMHO not suitable.

Another problem: Longevity. I have no doubt about the maintainability and longevity of my HAG three-pole motors, neither about by Märklin 6090/60901 motors.

Third problem: I feel fooled when a new model with a cheap motor runs worse than the previous model, but comes at the same price. That's a psychological problem and I'm sure I could learn to live happily with downgraded motors without feeling fooled (but my short-term and mid-term plan is avoiding downgraded models).

The problem is not the count of poles in a motor. But I see different behaviour when the loco drives. It also sounds different.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Armando  
#25 Posted : 10 December 2013 17:05:55(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,350
Location: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post


And if we can't deny a few recent problems (like the Zinkpest infected Köf and Seetal Krokodile, a specific "made in china- be prepared for the consequences" issue) the last few years production have been trouble free...



The recently (cheaply) retooled BR 24 models are all made in China... Shall I start preparing again for more Zinkpest infections?
Best regards,
Armando García

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Offline Goofy  
#26 Posted : 10 December 2013 18:02:38(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CarlosAlberto Go to Quoted Post
At M*'s webpage, these are some V100 locomotive caratheristics...
The icon means nothing, the phrase "controlled high-efficiency propulsion with a flywheel" only means you get a DC motor with permanent magnet and flywheel - it doesn't mean you get a five-pole motor.

That's part of the problem: all models are announced with "controlled high-efficiency propulsion" only and you no longer know what you will get.
Ask them how many poles the motor of the V 100 does have - and probably they will reply that they don't know ...


Nope!
The symbols means something.
If Marklin really means what they shows up,it support to customer.
So if you use icons in the CS2,are you saying...it don´t mean something??
It should stand 3 pole icon motor,but also with brasswheel.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#27 Posted : 10 December 2013 18:06:42(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: Armando Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post


And if we can't deny a few recent problems (like the Zinkpest infected Köf and Seetal Krokodile, a specific "made in china- be prepared for the consequences" issue) the last few years production have been trouble free...



The recently (cheaply) retooled BR 24 models are all made in China... Shall I start preparing again for more Zinkpest infections?


Blaim against chinese worker...not Marklin!!


H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline jeehring  
#28 Posted : 10 December 2013 19:57:12(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: Frankenbahner Go to Quoted Post
This metal ideology came only with Wolfgang Topp in the 1990s. But he was also the man who turned Märklin into an "exclusive" premium brand for adult collectors, focusing on retirees and neglecting young customers.
(...) Regards,
Florian


wolfgang Topp had brilliant ideas - for the time - in terms of marketing: he developed the concept of limited editions in the field of miniature train. One can almost say that Marklin has been the inventor (...of limited editions).
Topp also launched Insider Club and the MHI group ....
About metal fabrications, it was especially under the pressure of a strong demand consecutive to the decline in sales of plastic models
The Marklin plastic models did not have the expected success ..., you could see fans run through the countryside to buy the remaining stocks of former metal models....

Edited by user 12 December 2013 09:47:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#29 Posted : 12 December 2013 08:01:51(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Moved off topic posts on 3 pole motors from Marklin 2014 New Items thread.
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Offline bens33  
#30 Posted : 14 December 2013 11:50:38(UTC)
bens33


Joined: 20/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 47
Location: Belfast, N.Ireland
Frank Mayer from Marklin said this motor shows good running conditions. In these cases, where a customer had send a loco back, in most of these cases only the decoder had bad values in the CVs. After changing this, it works allright.

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Offline biedmatt  
#31 Posted : 14 December 2013 11:51:13(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I bought a 29040 start set so I could get a couple more lokos with different road numbers. The Br 50 has the time tested DCM/HEP/5 star motor. I suspect the E40 has a three pole can motor. Most of you know I replace my MFX decoders with ESU decoders and run them with DCC format. When I changed the decoder in the E40 I picked "Marklin 5 star" in LokProgrammer to set the motor regulation CVs. The loko ran well, but not great. There were small lunges up and down at speed step one. Barely perceptable, you might even persuade yourself it wasn't happening. Remembering Tom said that Hag uses three pole can motors, I then picked "Hag motor" in LokProgrammer. It now runs great. This is not a commentary on who's decoder regulates better, I only do a quick test to confirm the loko runs before the MFX comes out and the ESU decoder goes in. It is a commentary on the performance of a three pole motor and that they can be made to run as well as a five pole motor. It is also worth noting that even though it was a start set loko, three pole motors appear to be more prevalent in Marklin lokos.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 14 December 2013 12:08:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: bens33 Go to Quoted Post
Frank Mayer from Marklin said this motor shows good running conditions. In these cases, where a customer had send a loco back, in most of these cases only the decoder had bad values in the CVs. After changing this, it works allright.
When I take a loco with a factory-installed decoder out of the box then I expect that a suitable decoder with good CV settings is installed and that the loco shows good running conditions out of the box.

Märklin say their new motors exceed their expectations.

Maybe I expect too much, but their recent motor/decoder combinations do not always meet my expectations. Performance was better in earlier years.

When you work in a support centre you must have a very liberal definition of "good running conditions" and "works as expected".
I hope their sales and profits also "work as expected" and are in "good running conditions".

Märklin 2013 sales higher than 2012 sales.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#33 Posted : 14 December 2013 12:30:47(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Tom, to days world of selling is praise your own product even if it is crap and this goes not just for the modeltrain manufacturers , its the car industry, the food industry, today you will not find an add about the safety of a motor vehicle, how many air bags it has got or is it petrol or diesel, has it got a spare tyre, what you will see young girls getting into and out of the car and they show you a GPS (which are useless) and the colour of the car.
here in Australia one of the big Supermarkets Coles advertises fresh meat and Deli products, their meat is crap and has been for as long I remember, once every 6 years or so my wife tries a piece and it hasn't changed.

I'm happy to announce I've bought all my locos years ago and I'm happy with them but if I buy any more Märklin locos I will definitely make sure they don't have an El Cheapo motor in it.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline jeehring  
#34 Posted : 14 December 2013 17:35:02(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Marklin is to press news items 2014 due 14 January 2014 - Information from Club 6/2013 magazine.

But small list before date above.


BR151 Electric return to production - 151 033 in new SRI blue livery (Special edition?).


...with a cheap 3 poles motor ?...Mad Bored Sad Sad Sad

[/i]


Quite frankly I don't understand what's the matter with your "ever-going-never-stopping-unrelenting-unstoppable" ranting over Märklin current quality!Scared Confused

The latest locs I have bought in the last couple of years , an E10, and E 17, an E 50, the dual crocodiles set, the ET 403 "Donald Duck", the Borsig edition P10 and a few more which were **all** without exception absolutely perfect.

...(...)....Smile



you talk about E17, E10, P10 " Borsig " ET 403 , etc. .... I completely agree with you. They are good products .... as were most of the productions in 2011 & 2012 .
The Marklin insolvency reorganization was followed by a period : 2009 and especially in 2010 we had a production of uneven & irregular quality .
From 2011 Marklin reacted positively . Although this reaction was not always enough to hide some of the consequences of their policy of cost reduction we've all seen an improvement in the quality of production and especially a, clean, neat, skilful & nice finish :I often came to this forum to proclaim my satisfaction and my enthusiasm about Marklin models (some members even mocking my " Marklin Zealot " behaviour... ) .

As for me I'm talking about some of the 2013 products. About some recently delivered products : I have never seen such a degradation of the overall quality , a sharp decline in the quality of the finish or assembly and even design

Want another sign of the deterioration of the current quality....?

The car set MERKUR # 43918: most lights do not work. It is to such an extent that Marklin wrote to their dealers saying that those who had not opened their package should not do it and have to send ALL their packages back to Marklin without unpacking. ****
It is rare Marklin react this way... That said this was the best to do ...at least to keep up appearances...Wink
I could list other products If I wanted...should I do it ? .(at least to warn members from overseas buying by mail...)

I am only talking about the models that I have seen or tested . I do not do just like others do sometimes , resume descriptions of photo, or repeat what they have read on another forum. I speak from my own experience & it comes straight from reality, not from a virtual world. If you want I can go into details. Every years & throughout the year , I have the opportunity to see 90% of new items....
What I've seen those last 3 weeks disappointed me.

Fortunately, some products still deserve to wear the brandname Marklin ... : the two BR 03 # 37956, # 37957 ( as new products, are they made ​​in Goppingen to establish the new process ? ) . They are really nice.
Another model that is beautiful- really really beautiful - : is the #37707 , nice model of railcar with clean & neat finish, Era 2....
etc....

**** BTW : they didn't notice anything before sending this product to retailers... Why ?....Where does this set is made ? Where does it come from ? Where were the controlers ?...Sad

Edited by user 16 December 2013 13:13:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kbvrod  
#35 Posted : 14 December 2013 20:03:14(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
May go OT on this but please bear with me,....Confused

As stated before,I have been impressed by HAG 3-poles motors,maybe the ball bearings in the motor(?) Also,I have converted old Fleischmann ring motors,and small can(3-pole) to digital,all ran fine and without fine tuning (CV's). I think that the right decoder can run a 3-pole better. Now,other factors can impede performance,gearing,etc.That said,I have had M loks ran great out-of-the-box,a few,....not so much,...
Of course,I have also run Trix and a lot of DCC loks right out of the box and nary a problem.

What was my point again?LOL

Dirt
Offline jeehring  
#36 Posted : 15 December 2013 17:10:26(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
During rotation, the torque supplied by the rotor is not constant but depends on its position relative to the stator. The irregularity of the torque favors irregular behaviour, specially at low speeds. This irregularity is high on engines 3 poles and decreases especially as the number of poles is high...
Could this be compensated by the highest torque at low speed given by Digital regulation ?....That is the question ; IMHO : not totally. unless the decoder delivers more power when the pole is not near the stator ... may be .
Anyway it would need a special tuning of regulation....
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Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 15 December 2013 17:48:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
I am only talking about the models that I have seen or tested . I do not do just like others do sometimes , resume descriptions of photo, or repeat what they have read on another forum. I speak from my own experience & it comes straight from reality, not from a virtual world.
Most of the time I talk about models I have tested.
I do not have the instruments to proof it, but from my observations I dare say that the current Märklin mfx decoders do not have a load regulation that is state of the art. I've said it before: the load regulation is good enough for good motors, but comes to its limits with not so good motors.

Today I made some test runs with three Märklin Ludmillas: one has the factory-installed fx decoder, one has the factory-installed mfx decoder, one was converted to ESU V4.
The best and smoothest runner was the loco with the ESU decoder, the worst and jerkiest runner was the mfx loco - worse than the loco with fx decoder.

Same with Märklin TRAXX locos: I have one with factory-installed mfx decoder and it runs worse and jerkier than the TRAXX locos with fx decoders. I presume TRAXX and Ludmilla use the same motor type.

The Lollo 37740 shows the same jerkiness when starting at speed step 1 from a stand still like the Hobby locos TRAXX and Ludmilla with factory-installed mfx decoders. A BR 216 from a starter set with fx decoder (and five-pole motor) runs much smoother than the Lollo with mfx decoder.

The new Lollo is quieter than locos with the old five-pole motors and it runs much better than locos with 6080 or Delta decoders. But still it starts jerkier than earlier Märklin models or locos from other brands.
I know from hearsay that many do not notice this jerkiness - some notice it but don't mind. That's life. People are different.
I notice the jerkiness. I will avoid it in the future. Märklin's new standard motor exceeds all their requirements. Fine for Märklin. It does not meet my requirements for non-hobby locos.

I spake from my own experience.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#38 Posted : 15 December 2013 17:56:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
This irregularity is high on engines 3 poles and decreases especially as the number of poles is high.
It can be reduced e.g. by using skewed armatures or by increasing the poles. For years Märklin used five-pole can motors with skewed armatures to make locos that ran smoothly and quietly.

Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Could this be compensated by the highest torque at low speed given by Digital regulation?
Digital regulation can compensate this to some extent. Some decoders have better load regulation than others.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jeehring  
#39 Posted : 16 December 2013 11:24:10(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: bens33 Go to Quoted Post
Frank Mayer from Marklin said this motor shows good running conditions. In these cases, where a customer had send a loco back, in most of these cases only the decoder had bad values in the CVs. After changing this, it works allright.



I remember a certain Mister Mayer (Meyer?) . 10 yearsago I've had telephone exchanges with him. Very friendly.
Rare in Maerklin: He also speaks French ! Is this still the same Mr. Mayer (Meyer?) who speaks correct French language ? Confused
It is true that the performance of an electric motor depends on several factors: the quality of the coil, number of turns, diameter of the copper wire, etc. ...
Specially those small motors : it doesn't depend on the number of poles only...despite that it is an important factor.

when they are new, all electric motors are working properly. (At least in the expected field of performance)

Seeing the pictures it looks so cheap : what Marklin can say about the longevity of the engine ?
Performance after 100 hours will be the same ?
How will rotate this engine after 100 hours? 300 hours? 500 hours ? ....well... I do not think I could go beyond /i]...
I remember some intensive comparative tests : some Maerklin models fitted with former Maerklin three poles motors could work about 2000 hours without any serious breakdown . ( [i]Knowing that even in case of serious failure we could replace parts..)
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Offline AshleyH  
#40 Posted : 16 December 2013 13:22:55(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
Roland,

I would be grateful if you would expand on your previous post re the 43918 Merkur coach set and go on to list the problems with all the 2013 recent production that you know of please.

The return costs from England to Germany are very high, I already have trouble with my 37705 which looks wonderful, but runs terribly and appears to be binding somewhere in the drive train. And this one has a 5 pole skew wound motor!

Thank You
Ashley
Offline RayF  
#41 Posted : 16 December 2013 14:08:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
During the last 12 months I have bought 5 new Marklin locos. All have excellent finish and run well and reliably, so I have not experienced this "loss of quality" I hear about. A couple of these might have been in the shop for a year or so.

37741 DB V160 - 30 euro can motor
37001 OBB 2048 - 20 euro can motor
39023 DRG 18.3 - 120 euro SDS motor (Smoothest runner)
37616 DB 261 - DCM motor (noisiest and least smooth runner)
37165 DB 94 - 30 euro can motor

The 3 locos on my list with cheap motors are much smoother and quieter than the Br261 with the DCM motor. The SDS powered Br18.3 is of course the best runner, but not by so much that the extra 100 euro is noticed!

My criteria for smooth running are that the loco start easily at speed step 1, accelerate without visible steps to operating speed, and not exhibit jerkiness while running at any speed. Additionally, it must not be too sensitive to dirty track, which can be difficult to gauge unless compared at the same time to other locos.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Goofy  
#42 Posted : 16 December 2013 14:13:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: AshleyH Go to Quoted Post
Roland,

I would be grateful if you would expand on your previous post re the 43918 Merkur coach set and go on to list the problems with all the 2013 recent production that you know of please.

The return costs from England to Germany are very high, I already have trouble with my 37705 which looks wonderful, but runs terribly and appears to be binding somewhere in the drive train. And this one has a 5 pole skew wound motor!

Thank You
Ashley


I did look at the manual and it shows not Marklin motor.
Seems look like Böhler motor...??

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#43 Posted : 16 December 2013 15:32:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post


39023 DRG 18.3 - 120 euro SDS motor (Smoothest runner)

The SDS powered Br18.3 is of course the best runner, but not by so much that the extra 100 euro is noticed!



That´s way i did critical about this motor here in the forum for some years ago.
It was just simple too expensive by produce them.
No wonder why Marklin did bankrupt...
Today they make sure to avoid from fiasco again.
SDS motor will not return back again to the new models...that is so sure about!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline TimR  
#44 Posted : 17 December 2013 13:02:55(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
So the crusade to lower the production cost had shown its initial rotten fruits...

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
My E 10.3, E 10.12, and E 50 are very good. They all have ESU decoders and SDS.


Yes, those Einheits E-loks in their original SDS form w/ ESU decoders had set unsurpassable new standard to modern lok design.
I ranked them as the best modern models Marklin ever made....

I wouldn't touch any of the newer model with el-cheapo "whatever-the-f*-they-put-in-there" motor.
Hello, e-Bay or dealers that still have old stock...

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

I do not have the instruments to proof it, but from my observations I dare say that the current Märklin mfx decoders do not have a load regulation that is state of the art. I've said it before: the load regulation is good enough for good motors, but comes to its limits with not so good motors.

Today I made some test runs with three Märklin Ludmillas: one has the factory-installed fx decoder, one has the factory-installed mfx decoder, one was converted to ESU V4.
The best and smoothest runner was the loco with the ESU decoder, the worst and jerkiest runner was the mfx loco - worse than the loco with fx decoder.


I made similar comparison with age old DCM 5-pole motor too a few years back...
MFX Marklin "post-ESU in-house" edition vs ESU Lokpilot V3.0 M4.
Both are of previous generation technology compared to recent developments.

Tried to tinker around with the settings of Marklin MFx decoder on a 37321, and still not happy with the result.
So decided to take out the MFx decoder and replaced it with an ESU one, and got a markedly smoother running Re620.... on default settings from ESU.

For me, MFx decoder had lost its value ever since..... in the future, might have to buy them, because I have to. Since every new models came with in-house MFx decoder.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline TimR  
#45 Posted : 17 December 2013 13:14:59(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The new BR 45 from Märklin 37455 also comes with a new type of motor. Earlier models had coreless motors (with bell-shaped armature), while the new model has a three-pole DC motor.



Not very happy about this fact too...

BR45 used to always come with Maxxon motors... they were quite expensive to replace, but then they partially justify the premium price that a BR45 model demands...

Now, it's like you're buying a downgraded model for the same price... but this seems to be the case for ALL recent Marklin re-made models.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline RayF  
#46 Posted : 17 December 2013 13:18:44(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
C-sine was an expensive experiment which was unaffordable to continue. Keep buying them on ebay if you wish, but you won't get the support for spare motors or decoders.

We need to get over it and enjoy the new products. They are no worse than the old DCM motors, and much better in some respects.

It's a fact of life that everybody today uses cheap, mass produced motors, from model railways to shavers. They are reliable, efficient, and easily and economically replaced if they do go wrong.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline biedmatt  
#47 Posted : 17 December 2013 13:29:11(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
Yes, those Einheits E-loks in their original SDS form w/ ESU decoders had set unsurpassable new standard to modern lok design.
I ranked them as the best modern models Marklin ever made....

I wouldn't touch any of the newer model with el-cheapo "whatever-the-f*-they-put-in-there" motor.
Hello, e-Bay or dealers that still have old stock...


I have for the past few months been actively searching and buying SDS motor lokos with a 39*** part number.
I have to replace the decoders with ESU V4s to eliminate the dreaded MFX, but I am very happy with what I have bought.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline H0  
#48 Posted : 17 December 2013 14:42:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
It's a fact of life that everybody today uses cheap, mass produced motors, from model railways to shavers. They are reliable, efficient, and easily and economically replaced if they do go wrong.
Not so very long ago Märklin proudly advertised Athlonix motors, other motors with bell-shaped armature or five-pole motors with skewed armatures.
Other companies still advertise five-pole motors, some even advertise Canon five-pole motors.

Affordable mass produced can motors are OK for me. Märklin and Trix used them for years.

We know it from the food industry: "New recipe" sometimes means "cheaper ingredients". Märklin have a new motor recipe, but I hope customer feedback will convince them to return to old 2009 motor recipes.
They've had at least three different types of motors in the BR 218 models (a mould that is not really old). SDS was too expensive and is gone for good. But why not go back to motors with bell-shaped armatures?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jeehring  
#49 Posted : 17 December 2013 14:56:57(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
r.




Now, it's like you're buying a downgraded model for the same price... .

ABSOLUTELY !
Even with a good electronic regulation : decoders are cheap today. Cheaper than any mechanical improvement...
And what about the service life of those new motors ?



Originally Posted by: TimR Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The



....but this seems to be the case for ALL recent Marklin re-made models.


The worst is in their attitude
In the description or presentation of the model, they are careful NOT to announce the change of engine or NOT to describe the type of engine ...do they feel embarrased ?
When Marklin was replacing 3 pôles by 5 pôles or installing C-Sinus or SDS instead of classical motor .... they did not fail to mention it & to provide a description. (proudly !)
They have an attitude of disdain for their customers , they show a big lack of esteem .
And that is the worst of the worst !
(We don't even know which models will be fitted with 3 pôles, now with all this changes on the sly we don't even know about any type of motors ! ...)
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Offline Goofy  
#50 Posted : 17 December 2013 14:57:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


why not go back to motors with bell-shaped armatures?


Exactly what i´m supposing too!!
Faulhaber or Maxon motor doesn´t cost so much.
Not really sure...i think about 35-40 euro.
Just take look at ESU new V60 with Faulhaber motor.
How nice!!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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