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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 04 December 2013 20:27:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
I decides to start this topic by welcome very good tips for those who use digital system in mfx/MM or DCC protocol.
Pictures welcome too since it says more than thousands of the words.
Here is one good tip by use spring clamp for the wires,when you connect digital system.
I did mistake before by soldering the wires,but solder makes sometimes worse contact for the digital system.
Just pure copper connect at once to all.
Goofy attached the following image(s):
DSC_0001.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 04 December 2013 20:32:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
I forget to write,that spring clamp accept wires between 0,05 up to 2,5mm.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Webmaster  
#3 Posted : 04 December 2013 20:52:36(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Looks interesting, would save a lot of soldering... Where do you get these?
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Goofy  
#4 Posted : 05 December 2013 07:07:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Looks interesting, would save a lot of soldering... Where do you get these?


www.kjell.com/sortiment/...ma-5-anslutningar-p37425

There is three contact too to buy.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 08 December 2013 11:32:16(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
More tip about Marklin digital system...
Never ever twist wires for the digital system,since it makes disturb for mfx/MM with data information!!
I did twisted wires for my DCC layout and it still work,but for how long...!?
Bernd Lenz(former owner of the digital plus) recommend with his digital system to twist the wires,while Marklin says:Don´t do that with ours system!!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline bo  
#6 Posted : 10 December 2013 01:05:59(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Hi Goofy,

I have some soldering in my marklin digital system. More than 6 years past, since it was soldered. Still working fine... BigGrin
Now I am building new layout and I have lots of these plugs.
I am just put bare end wire in to the plug and connect between plugs. I am still not sure about conductivity, but tests looks successful.


Boris
Offline Goofy  
#7 Posted : 13 December 2013 07:08:51(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: bo Go to Quoted Post
Hi Goofy,

I have some soldering in my marklin digital system. More than 6 years past, since it was soldered. Still working fine... BigGrin
Now I am building new layout and I have lots of these plugs.
I am just put bare end wire in to the plug and connect between plugs. I am still not sure about conductivity, but tests looks successful.


Boris


It looks great.
But Marklin recommend to use pure copper connect at once,to keep in good contact so much as possible by not lossing data traffic.
It´s just good tips from me and hopefully it helps to other who has perhaps problems with the digital system.
Miba(train magazin) have digital magazin which shows how to use digital system and there is some tips and trick.
But it only stand in the german language...
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline efel  
#8 Posted : 13 December 2013 16:48:59(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Bernd Lenz(former owner of the digital plus) recommend with his digital system to twist the wires,while Marklin says:Don´t do that with ours system!!


Hi Anders,
I was not aware that Marklin recommends not to twist digital wires.
Where have you read that?
Fred
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Offline bo  
#9 Posted : 14 December 2013 03:07:44(UTC)
bo

Ukraine   
Joined: 29/03/2013(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Ukraine
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Bernd Lenz(former owner of the digital plus) recommend with his digital system to twist the wires,while Marklin says:Don´t do that with ours system!!


Hi Anders,
I was not aware that Marklin recommends not to twist digital wires.
Where have you read that?
Fred


Sorry for interruption, but in my case (coloured cups) the only way to keep strong connection, i.e. between bare wire and cups is to twist and solder.


Thanks!

Boris
Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 14 December 2013 08:02:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
I wonder if i did mistake in understanding about twist the wires...
With Lenz digital plus,you must do this when you hook up with the booster.
For many years ago when i did had an Marklin layout,Marklin did told by not twist the wires.
It was not necassary by do this.
Okey...if there is no interupt,it will be fine by do this.
When you use analog power,it´s not necassary by twist the wires.
But if we are talking or writing about digital power,here is an difference.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 24 December 2013 07:43:40(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
One more tip:
When you buy an digital locomotiv with mfx+ decoder and you use MS2,make sure that MS2 has version 1.83 in SW.
This to register mfx+ decoder.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline arcanjo  
#12 Posted : 31 December 2013 14:24:24(UTC)
arcanjo

Portugal   
Joined: 14/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: Portugal
Hi all!

I have a digital system (CS2 with a booster) and I had always twisted the wires and put solder on them. I never had a problem with reliability from those wires. In fact if I am not mistaken, the wires that come with the 24994 contact track, are twisted and solder from factory, only to give you an exemple.

Best regards and Happy New Year!

Miguel
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Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 31 December 2013 14:46:14(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: arcanjo Go to Quoted Post
Hi all!

I have a digital system (CS2 with a booster) and I had always twisted the wires and put solder on them. I never had a problem with reliability from those wires. In fact if I am not mistaken, the wires that come with the 24994 contact track, are twisted and solder from factory, only to give you an exemple.

Best regards and Happy New Year!

Miguel


Thank you for the good tip! ThumpUp
Seems here that it doesn´t matter how to wire for the digital systems.
The most important is to connect correct in the system.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Christoffer  
#14 Posted : 31 December 2013 15:58:17(UTC)
Christoffer

Norway   
Joined: 23/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 760
The Clamps in the first post here, is Called WAGO. They are excellent for feeding wires etc.. i use them between my modules. Very good product to have in hands reach ThumpUp

Christoffer
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#15 Posted : 01 January 2014 10:03:29(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Can these WAGO clamps be compared to the suitcase connectors? I know a few electronics guys, who thinks the suitcase connectors are a bad thing, because the power loss is to big.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline LeoArietis  
#16 Posted : 01 January 2014 14:26:42(UTC)
LeoArietis

Sweden   
Joined: 07/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 152
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
Can these WAGO clamps be compared to the suitcase connectors? I know a few electronics guys, who thinks the suitcase connectors are a bad thing, because the power loss is to big.


The Wago-clamp has been approved by Swedish authorities for 400-Volt-usages with both multistranded and single stranded cable. It is good, but not cheap, and quite strong.
Current layout:
http://www.svensktmjforu.../index.php?topic=10990.0
The former project:
http://www.svensktmjforu...forum_posts.asp?TID=1097
With Pictures and trackplans, but in Swedish
Transitation-curves in C-track:
https://www.marklin-user...9-on-75-cm.aspx#post9281
Offline Goofy  
#17 Posted : 14 January 2014 18:46:18(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Here is another good tip to soldering feeder clamp contact.
This because to lay ballast and use mixed wood glue and it might to get stuck between feeder contact.
In this way you make sure extra good contact for the tracks.
Not sure if somebody do it same way with the C tracks.

Goofy attached the following image(s):
DSC_0018.JPG
DSC_0019.JPG
DSC_0020.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#18 Posted : 01 February 2014 04:47:50(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Attention!!!
For those who use MS2 version 1.83 must keep in remind,that it´s not possible by use CV protocol with all adresses when you have mfx and mfx+ decoder.
Because a line over CV protocol stand in the MS2.
I know it´s not good tip,but it is good to understand what problem there is.
So when you buy an new locomotiv from Märklin with mfx or mfx+,think first before by choise.
In other else,you must have CS2 to use all cv adresses in the CV protocol.
Have an nice day!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 01 February 2014 09:01:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
For those who use MS2 version 1.83 must keep in remind,that it´s not possible by use CV protocol with all adresses when you have mfx and mfx+ decoder.
With DCC it is called CV programming.
With MM it is called register programming.
With mfx you use configuration space.

Three different names for the same task - but also three completely different techniques. The menu item CV is disabled for mfx decoders because they do not support CV programming - and the MS2 cannot access the configuration space beyond the few settings that are explicitly showing in the menu (volume, max. speed, acceleration and braking delay).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#20 Posted : 01 February 2014 09:47:12(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Where have you read that?


My question, as well!

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#21 Posted : 01 February 2014 09:49:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
One tip I've always been told is that when running a wiring bus carrying the track output signal from a central station / control unit, is to have the bus only as an end to end bus, rather than loop the cable around the layout and join it back up to where you started.

I believe this is to do with signal timing issues.
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Offline Goofy  
#22 Posted : 01 February 2014 15:21:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 01 February 2014 15:50:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
www.maerklin.de/media.php/de/produkte/downloads/Umruestdecoder_mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_FX%20(MM).pdf


Here's the full address (copy to address field):
Code:
http://www.maerklin.de/media.php/de/produkte/downloads/Umruestdecoder_mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_FX%20(MM).pdf


That list is for mLD/mSD sold separately. Only a subset of these settings will work with current factory-installed decoders.
That "CV" list can be used when programming decoders with a CU 6021, an Intellibox or an MS1. The MS2 cannot be used to program those decoders in MM mode, so the list is not useful for MS2 users.

There is another list that shows CVs for DCC mode. Since the factory-installed decoders do not support DCC, this list is not useful for those decoders, no matter which controller is in use.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Danlake  
#24 Posted : 01 February 2014 16:01:00(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
One tip I've always been told is that when running a wiring bus carrying the track output signal from a central station / control unit, is to have the bus only as an end to end bus, rather than loop the cable around the layout and join it back up to where you started.

I believe this is to do with signal timing issues.


I read that several times as well, but still don't unnderstand it...

The track above the wire bus is in most cases connected as a loop, so is the signal only getting confused when running in a wire but not in the railsBlink

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline kbvrod  
#25 Posted : 01 February 2014 17:25:35(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
One tip I've always been told is that when running a wiring bus carrying the track output signal from a central station / control unit, is to have the bus only as an end to end bus, rather than loop the cable around the layout and join it back up to where you started.

I believe this is to do with signal timing issues.


Hi all,
Very true,in DCC land these are called 'snubbers' and the recommended way for buss.

Dr D

Offline Goofy  
#26 Posted : 02 February 2014 08:23:39(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
www.maerklin.de/media.php/de/produkte/downloads/Umruestdecoder_mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_FX%20(MM).pdf


Here's the full address (copy to address field):
Code:
http://www.maerklin.de/media.php/de/produkte/downloads/Umruestdecoder_mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_FX%20(MM).pdf


That list is for mLD/mSD sold separately. Only a subset of these settings will work with current factory-installed decoders.
That "CV" list can be used when programming decoders with a CU 6021, an Intellibox or an MS1. The MS2 cannot be used to program those decoders in MM mode, so the list is not useful for MS2 users.

There is another list that shows CVs for DCC mode. Since the factory-installed decoders do not support DCC, this list is not useful for those decoders, no matter which controller is in use.


The reason of why i wanted to show CV liste,is that it shows several more cv adresses to use with mfx and mfx+ decoder.
It should been follow with the locomotivs,so it´s great good tip for the customer.
The sad is that you cannot use CV protocol in the MS2 with mfx and mfx+.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#27 Posted : 19 October 2014 10:24:48(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Here is one good tip for the digital system by connect power.
Use rectifiers,because rectifiers are straight power which is more safety than alternate current power.
Low power like 16 VAC do happens sometimes with current disorders,while straight power doesn´t.
Here is one picture which shows two rectifiers,but not same power feeder output.
The left is Märklins at 18VDC and the right one is at 12VDC.
The right one was for to use turnout motor like Tortoise at 12VDC.
Goofy attached the following image(s):
DSC_0028.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#28 Posted : 19 October 2014 10:56:14(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
....rectifiers.......


There's that word again!

Goofy, you are using the word 'rectifier' but that is not a correct English translation. The Marklin item on the left of your photo is a switch mode power supply. I don't know what the object on the right is (not clear from the photo).

This is a rectifier.......

UserPostedImage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier

I don't know what Swedish word you are trying to translate, maybe you should post it so Juhan can provide a better translation.
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Offline Purellum  
#29 Posted : 19 October 2014 12:36:56(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I don't know what you try to tell us; but you are making a mess of it.

If you have a AC voltage ( high or low ) with a "current disorder", adding a rectifier only gives you a DC voltage, with the same "current disorder".

We have tried to tell you a lot of times now, that what Märklin sells for DC power supply now, is a "switch mode power supply".

In English: http://en.wikipedia.org/...itched-mode_power_supply

In Swedish: http://sv.wikipedia.org/...tching_Mode_Power_Supply

Please please please read one of those links.


Using DC is not any better than using AC for Märklin equipment, since the input stage of MS1 / MS2 / CS1 / CS2 also have a DC-voltage stabiliser.

Only in areas with large jumps / spikes in the voltage you get from your household outlet, some sort of stabiliser would be a good idea.

These jumps / spikes typically comes only if you are connected to a small generator, or if the power provider f***s up big time.

In that case an UPS would protect electronic equipment in your house, like TVs, radios, computers and of course your Märklin electronic controllers.

Per.

Cool


If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline leahcim  
#30 Posted : 19 October 2014 12:37:29(UTC)
leahcim

Australia   
Joined: 12/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: QUEENSLAND, BRISBANE
Top marks for the tip on the wago connectors and the flux pen Goofy. Both great items to have in the toolkit.

ThumpUp
Offline Goofy  
#31 Posted : 19 October 2014 14:36:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
....rectifiers.......


There's that word again!

Goofy, you are using the word 'rectifier' but that is not a correct English translation. The Marklin item on the left of your photo is a switch mode power supply. I don't know what the object on the right is (not clear from the photo).

This is a rectifier.......

UserPostedImage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier

I don't know what Swedish word you are trying to translate, maybe you should post it so Juhan can provide a better translation.


The picture you show up is so called rectifier bridge.
In Sweden when we talk about current power,we do say two different words:trafo and rectifier.
We use word rectifier(bridge) as ID,when it present direct voltage to direct current from alternating current.
Rectifier is an complete unit.
The picture i post is an rectifier(230VAC to 12VDC).
So there is an rectifier bridge in the unit,which i call it as rectifier.
Transformer is an trafo which do have alternating current to alternating current,like Märklins old trafo 52 VA.
It shows like this:230VAC to 16VAC.



Goofy attached the following image(s):
DSC_0029.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#32 Posted : 19 October 2014 14:43:59(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

I don't know what you try to tell us; but you are making a mess of it.

If you have a AC voltage ( high or low ) with a "current disorder", adding a rectifier only gives you a DC voltage, with the same "current disorder".

We have tried to tell you a lot of times now, that what Märklin sells for DC power supply now, is a "switch mode power supply".

In English: http://en.wikipedia.org/...itched-mode_power_supply

In Swedish: http://sv.wikipedia.org/...tching_Mode_Power_Supply

Please please please read one of those links.


Using DC is not any better than using AC for Märklin equipment, since the input stage of MS1 / MS2 / CS1 / CS2 also have a DC-voltage stabiliser.

Only in areas with large jumps / spikes in the voltage you get from your household outlet, some sort of stabiliser would be a good idea.

These jumps / spikes typically comes only if you are connected to a small generator, or if the power provider f***s up big time.

In that case an UPS would protect electronic equipment in your house, like TVs, radios, computers and of course your Märklin electronic controllers.

Per.

Cool




It´s difference between alternating current and straight current(Power).
Low power with alternating current at 16VAC do have spikes sometimes,so that´s way Märklin did choised straight current(dc) for the digital system because it´s more safety to use it.
If i was digital producer,i would choise dc current for the digital system.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#33 Posted : 19 October 2014 15:57:26(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
The picture you show up is so called rectifier bridge.
In Sweden when we talk about current power,we do say two different words:trafo and rectifier.
We use word rectifier(bridge) as ID,when it present direct voltage to direct current from alternating current.
Rectifier is an complete unit.
The picture i post is an rectifier(230VAC to 12VDC).
So there is an rectifier bridge in the unit,which i call it as rectifier.
Transformer is an trafo which do have alternating current to alternating current,like Märklins old trafo 52 VA.
It shows like this:230VAC to 16VAC.


NO NO NO !!!!!

You do not say that in Sweden, and I know that Juhan has even tried to tell you in Swedish on his Facebook page.

Everybody in the entire world, except you, calls it a power supply, including the manufacturer, MEANWELL:

http://www.meanwelldirec...s/pdfs/r1193/r1193_3.pdf

I also "mean well" by telling you this again and again, please stop being a stubborn troll.

Quote:
Low power with alternating current at 16VAC do have spikes sometimes,so that´s way Märklin did choised straight current(dc) for the digital system because it´s more safety to use it.


NO NO NO !!!!!

Märklin have chosen DC because of the EU-regulation regarding backwards transformation in traditional transformers sold as toys,
and because the price on DC equipment now is cheaper than traditional transformers.

The Märklin equipment you connect don't care if you use AC or DC.

Per.

Crying

Cool

P.S: Edit: Here you get it in Swedish:

Enheterna du nämner är inte att betraktas som likriktare då de är switchade nätaggregat som omvandlar 230V AC nätspänning till ca 18-20V DC. De innehåller en likriktarkomponent i elektroniken för att erhålla DC efter att spänningen transformerats ned till lämplig nivå liksom alla AC/DC- adaptrar för bärbara datorer osv...

En likriktare omvandlar från AC till DC på samma spänningsnivå, inget annat.

From Wikipedia in Swedish: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likriktning

See, nobody else but you, even in Sweden, uses the word rectifier / likriktar for a power supply
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Renato  
#34 Posted : 19 October 2014 19:14:17(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Märklin have chosen DC because of the EU-regulation regarding backwards transformation in traditional transformers sold as toys,
and because the price on DC equipment now is cheaper than traditional transformers.

The Märklin equipment you connect don't care if you use AC or DC.

Per.


Hi Per, all,

One more thing: you have more efficiency (less power losses) with the switch mode power supply, as you do not have a transformer with iron and copper losses.

For more technical specifications, have a look at this LINK

Cheers

Renato


Offline Webmaster  
#35 Posted : 19 October 2014 19:24:22(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Renato, you have it perfectly right - a switched power supply is more energy efficient than the old traditional way of doing it.

Anders, to use DC with Tortoise and such is of course mandatory and there a rectifier, preferably with some adjustment of output DC voltage, is perfect if you run low voltage AC voltage to the accessories.

Even the Märklin k83's have about 12V DC output voltage.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Renato  
#36 Posted : 19 October 2014 19:38:01(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Hi Juhan,

I know those things as I teach to my students (at a high technical school) the basics of electrotechnics and the functioning of electrical machines (transformers, squirrel cage motors, etc.).

Sorry for the Off-Topic. RollEyes

Cheers

Renato
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Offline Chook  
#37 Posted : 21 October 2014 03:50:02(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
Gents lets not get too carried away with the efficiencies of switched mode power supplies.
In my 20 years experience repairing specifically with switched mode yes they are electrically more efficient and lighter however their failure rate is also significantly more frequent than using the old transformer technology. And of course once you have to reinvest in a new replacement or repair all of your monetary savings have just gone.

Just an observation.

Regards....Chook.

Offline H0  
#38 Posted : 21 October 2014 07:43:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Chook Go to Quoted Post
Gents lets not get too carried away with the efficiencies of switched mode power supplies.
The advantages of switching-mode power supplies over transformers are: reduced weight, higher efficiency, stabilized output voltage, often wide input voltage (e.g. 100 through 240 V).
I never had a PC or laptop power supply fail at home - but we had several PC supplies failing at the company.
Probably it's the usual dilemma: things can be designed for longevity or for cost-efficiency.

Transformers are simple devices. But we had a few reports about adjustable transformers from a certain brand where the speed knob failed to work correctly
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Purellum  
#39 Posted : 21 October 2014 09:38:11(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
Transformers are simple devices. But we had a few reports about adjustable transformers from a certain brand where the speed knob failed to work correctly


Transformers are usually more or less indestructible, I think the cases you mention are caused by the wire to the knob being too stiff and finally break.

Very intensive use of an adjustable transformer can cause the slider to cut the transformer coil; but that is very rare.

Per.

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Offline Goofy  
#40 Posted : 09 November 2014 17:19:01(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
To use DC Power is more safety than AC for the digital system,since we are talking about straight power which are more trusting to feed power for the digital system as example.
Since i did start use rectifier for my digital layout,i don´t have problems.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#41 Posted : 09 November 2014 17:24:52(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
A good tip for the digital locomotiv:
Sometimes do people use too much oil to oil wheels.
To add one drop seems sometimes too much.
So use an needle by dip in the oil and add on the axles of wheels.
Better and safer!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline stevend  
#42 Posted : 09 November 2014 21:29:39(UTC)
stevend


Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Christchurch,
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
More tip about Marklin digital system...
Never ever twist wires for the digital system,since it makes disturb for mfx/MM with data information!!
I did twisted wires for my DCC layout and it still work,but for how long...!?
Bernd Lenz(former owner of the digital plus) recommend with his digital system to twist the wires,while Marklin says:Don´t do that with ours system!!



To twist, or not to twist...

The twist on the wire when terminating has more to do with the terminal type being used. Most newer connectors are designed to not have twisted wires and rely on a flat clamp. Read the data sheet for the terminal and see what the manufacture says about terminating into their terminal.

It would make more sense to me at least that the twist is a longitudinal twist which is standard practice on long cable runs to reduce the effects of interference both ways.

The bad effects of soldering would suggest to me that the wire used has been contaminated and overtime has created a very, very, very small air gap (dry joint) and the high impedance (simplistic) time being long enough to impact on data reception. There will be millions of wires around the world, soldered, and running at higher frequencies than Marklin's digital system and they don't suffer this problem.

: )
D









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H0
Offline Goofy  
#43 Posted : 11 November 2014 17:25:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: stevend Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
More tip about Marklin digital system...
Never ever twist wires for the digital system,since it makes disturb for mfx/MM with data information!!
I did twisted wires for my DCC layout and it still work,but for how long...!?
Bernd Lenz(former owner of the digital plus) recommend with his digital system to twist the wires,while Marklin says:Don´t do that with ours system!!



To twist, or not to twist...

The twist on the wire when terminating has more to do with the terminal type being used. Most newer connectors are designed to not have twisted wires and rely on a flat clamp. Read the data sheet for the terminal and see what the manufacture says about terminating into their terminal.

It would make more sense to me at least that the twist is a longitudinal twist which is standard practice on long cable runs to reduce the effects of interference both ways.

The bad effects of soldering would suggest to me that the wire used has been contaminated and overtime has created a very, very, very small air gap (dry joint) and the high impedance (simplistic) time being long enough to impact on data reception. There will be millions of wires around the world, soldered, and running at higher frequencies than Marklin's digital system and they don't suffer this problem.

: )
D











When you use Märklins turntable 7286,you must twist cables to connect control box and pcb,this to avoid interference.
So to twist cables do sometimes helps.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#44 Posted : 11 November 2014 21:33:29(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
To use DC Power is more safety than AC for the digital system,since we are talking
about straight power which are more trusting to feed power for the digital system as example.


Not correct. No matter how often you repeat yourself, it's still not correct.

Per.

Cool
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Offline Goofy  
#45 Posted : 11 November 2014 22:15:06(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Quote:
To use DC Power is more safety than AC for the digital system,since we are talking
about straight power which are more trusting to feed power for the digital system as example.


Not correct. No matter how often you repeat yourself, it's still not correct.

Per.

Cool


"Ström spikningar" means in translation to english "power detonation".
This happens often with lesser power AC like 16 VAC.
With straight power(DC) you don´t have power detonation.
When i did had Märklin layout,i did used trafo 16 VAC as power source to the digital system CU6021.
There was sometimes interference.
Today with MS2 and straight power(DC),there is no problems.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#46 Posted : 12 November 2014 08:28:25(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
"Ström spikningar" means in translation to english "power detonation".


No, it's called "Voltage spikes" in English. A detonation is an explosion.

Quote:
This happens often with lesser power AC like 16 VAC.


No, if it happens in your household outlet, it will happen in your 16 VAC too.

Quote:
With straight power(DC) you don´t have power detonation.


No, you don't have explosions in AC or DC - I hope !!

Quote:
When i did had Märklin layout,i did used trafo 16 VAC as power source to the digital system CU6021.
There was sometimes interference.
Today with MS2 and straight power(DC),there is no problems.


Maybe the problem was something else, and you can't run a CU6021 on DC; but you can run a MS2 on AC.

The MS2 has a build in power supply, which makes the AC to a stabilised DC.

Per.

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Offline Goofy  
#47 Posted : 12 November 2014 18:51:51(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Weak power source do have interference sometimes.
It´s difference between voltage and power.
When you connect trafo to start voltage without to use it,nothing happens.
But when you start to use trafo,you use power.
Low voltage with power like 16 VAC do have weakness during consumption.
It´s not voltage spikes that is problem,it´s "ström spikningar"(power detonation) makes problem.
"Ström"=power
"Spikningar"=detonation
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#48 Posted : 12 November 2014 19:26:49(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,496
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation

I think your Google translate needs an update.

Per.

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Offline Ukko-Pekka  
#49 Posted : 12 November 2014 20:29:33(UTC)
Ukko-Pekka

Finland   
Joined: 16/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: NORTHERN FINLAND
Taitaa pojilla olla puurot ja vellit sekaisin...


I think theres too many misunderstoods here... Ström is current, not power... So ström spikningar must be current spike (eli virtapiikki).


And about twisting wires, i think other is speaking about twisting the end of wire, other is speaking of twisting wires together as pairs... If you understand what im trying to say here...
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#50 Posted : 12 November 2014 20:43:46(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ukko-Pekka Go to Quoted Post
If you understand what im trying to say here...


Yes, thanks, I do understand what you're trying to say. Unfortunately, I have no idea what Goofy is trying to say......

As Per say 'detonation' is something that explodes or blows up. We talk about detonation (Per's Google article refers to this) in an internal combustion engine - known as 'pinking' or 'knocking'. I don't think we have had cases of Marklin transformers or power supplies or mains power blowing up (detonating). I think Per's translation is correct - voltage spikes (which often happens on a mains circuit due to other external factors) seems to be more accurate in this context.

No doubt Goofy will continue to argue that 'power detonation' is correct (because that's what Google translate says, and Google is always correct...), but I don't want to see this argument continue please (something that has previously been happening in the forum, which is why I'm commenting on this now).
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