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Offline TouchCab  
#1 Posted : 27 July 2013 14:27:46(UTC)
TouchCab

Denmark   
Joined: 04/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 149
Location: Denmark
Hi everyone.

As posted here, I am currently working on TouchCab 1.8 for CS2. My plan is to release a version 1.7.9 of the free version, so everyone can have a go at it and I can fix the most forehead-slapping bugs before releasing the full v1.8.

Controlling locomotives is pretty much done already, and it works great. Kudos to myself for having made an easily expandable architecture, and kudos to Märklin for a great controller. I have not worked much with the CS2 until now, but I always thought it seemed like a stable and sturdy unit, and my impressions so far confirm that.

What they don't tell much about - and what I don't have much experience with - is the speed settings of the Motorola format and the mfx format. So I am going to ask a question that has probably been asked a thousand times before in this forum.

Motorola:
From the information I have gathered, the base resolution is 14 steps. Some decoders can twist the protocol to achieve 27 and 28 steps. Is this possible on the CS2?
If so, how is it done, and most importantly, is there any way to extract information from the CS2, so a computer program can adjust the user interface accordingly? From the config pages of the CS2 I can get much information, but there is an entry called '.xprot', which tells about extended protocol features, but the values seem like they are scattered all over the place for mm2 locomotives.

mfx:
The base resolution appears to be 128 steps, but I know from the ECoS that it is possible to use 28 steps also. My problem is that the ECoS does not tell me anything about the setting used, so I have to let the user set an option manually. What does the CS2 do? The .xprot entry on the config page probably tells the story, but I don't see anywhere on the CS2 that I can change the speed resolution on an mfx locomotive.


Thanks for any help you may provide.
Jens
Best regards,
Jens
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 27 July 2013 14:57:24(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: TouchCab Go to Quoted Post
Motorola:
From the information I have gathered, the base resolution is 14 steps. Some decoders can twist the protocol to achieve 27 and 28 steps. Is this possible on the CS2?
The MM track protocol used by Märklin only uses 14 speed steps.
ESU squeezed another bit in to get 28 speed steps. This can be used only with controllers that implement this extra bit (CS1, CS1 reloaded, ECoS do; Tams MC should also support this).
ESU decoders normally support 28 speed steps - this also applies to mfx decoders used in MM mode.

Märklin decoders support 27 speed steps. Controllers support this by sending two speed commands. To make sure the loco runs at speed step 1, the controller will send 0 followed immediately by 1.
To get speed step 1.5, the controller sends speed step 2 immediately followed by speed step 1.

CS2 sends 27 speed steps to all MM locos.

60901 decoders and current mfx decoders support 27 speed steps. There also are Tams decoders that support 27 speed steps this way.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline TouchCab  
#3 Posted : 27 July 2013 15:16:51(UTC)
TouchCab

Denmark   
Joined: 04/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 149
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

CS2 sends 27 speed steps to all MM locos.

Thanks - that will be the default, then.

Now I just need to figure out mfx.
Best regards,
Jens
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Offline perz  
#4 Posted : 02 August 2013 23:06:12(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

ESU decoders normally support 28 speed steps - this also applies to mfx decoders used in MM mode.



No. ESU decoders normally support only 27 speed steps in MM mode. I have tested. The 28th speed step does not exist, you get exactly the same speed as with the 27th speed step. It was some time ago I did those tests but I doubt that they have changed it.

You only get 126 speed steps with mfx, not 128. I have tested that too.


Offline Danlake  
#5 Posted : 03 August 2013 06:01:22(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

ESU decoders normally support 28 speed steps - this also applies to mfx decoders used in MM mode.



No. ESU decoders normally support only 27 speed steps in MM mode. I have tested. The 28th speed step does not exist, you get exactly the same speed as with the 27th speed step. It was some time ago I did those tests but I doubt that they have changed it.

You only get 126 speed steps with mfx, not 128. I have tested that too.




That's my experience as well.

After doing a speed profile in PC software Traincontroller the software will tell you how many speed steps. In mFx my loco I get max 126 steps.

Brds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 03 August 2013 08:34:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
ESU decoders normally support 28 speed steps - this also applies to mfx decoders used in MM mode.
No. ESU decoders normally support only 27 speed steps in MM mode. I have tested. The 28th speed step does not exist, you get exactly the same speed as with the 27th speed step.
When I made the tests, I got 28 speed steps. And speed step 28/28 was faster than speed step 14/14 (speed step 14/14 was the same as 27/28).
IIRC I made the tests with an unreloaded CS1.

Which controller did you use?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 03 August 2013 12:58:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I made further tests today: the decoders support 28 speed steps.
My test with Märklin 39834 (1116 912 MWB) with default settings showed that the loco reached maximum speed at step 27 already. After reducing Vmax from 225 (factory default) to 200, she reached 229 km/h at speed step 28 and 217 km/h at step 27.
The other test loco was 120 002 (Märklin 37538). I don't know if Vmax is still at the factory default, but she showed 28 distinct speed steps (220 km/h at #28, 210 km/h at #27).

Years ago while I was still using Motorola 14, I noticed that some locos reach their maximum speeds at step 12 of 14 or even 11 of 14. Vmax too high, but cannot blame this on the decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline perz  
#8 Posted : 05 August 2013 21:45:18(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
I made tests mainly with default Vmax settings. I agree that this could be the reason for the missing 28th speed steps. Or maybe this works differently in different versions of the decoders. I used my home-made control unit where I know exactly which code sequences that are sent out, so we can discard the dependence on the control unit.

In mfx it is anyhow 126 speed steps.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 06 August 2013 01:43:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
In mfx it is anyhow 126 speed steps.
This never was questionable for me: the CS1 always shows the correct range of speed steps (0 to 126 or 0 to 28 for mfx locos; 0 to 14, 0 to 28 or 0 to 126 for DCC locos; 0 to 14, 0 to 27 or 0 to 28 for MM locos.

In several threads I mentioned that I find it highly illogical to speak of DCC 28 and DCC 128 as the former has 28, the later only 126 speed steps.

I have never seen an ESU decoder that had 27 speed steps only when used with MM 28 protocol. This works with OEM decoders in both Roco and Märklin locos and with LokPilot V3 and V4 decoders and also with V3 mfx decoders.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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