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Offline mike c  
#1 Posted : 02 July 2013 07:14:47(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
After many years of waiting, it appears that we won't have to wait too much longer.
Rumours suggest that the first models of the RAe TEE Gottardo from LS Models should arrive in shops within the next two weeks.

I am waiting to see final photos to see how LSM has resolved the bogie design issue on the coaches and motor unit.

Regards

Mike C
Offline jeehring  
#2 Posted : 02 July 2013 18:10:37(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
This manufacturer has been caught in his own trap ... At first he announced a model in 1:87 scale with no compromise .....
It was there 5 or 6 years ago...(..may be more ?)!
Since then, he realized that it was impossible, unless to roll the model on 200 cm radius curves.
LSM has encountered technical difficulties before admitting they would have to "cheat" and make serious compromise ...
Now we will see if they are honest, if they continue to promise us the uncompromising 1:87 .. or if they will announce the nature of the compromises they have been forced to adopt (rail height, wheel diameter , correct overhanging , width of the coaches , space between cars, etc., etc. ...)

I have often thought that the mobile skirts was not a bad solution: it allows to treat everything else with more accurate dimensions .. not having to place too many compromises elsewhere.
We know the length of the Marklin cars Marklin was treated at an intermediate scale. It would be interesting to take a vernier caliper and make comparative measurements of the two models (Marklin - LSM) ... why not of the three models that have existed: Lima / Riva (with removable skirts) - Marklin - then...LSM (which originally was a project from RAILTOP...)
Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 02 July 2013 23:20:44(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I think it should be feasible to design the coach bogies so that they can rotate without interference from the coach body. As far as the motor unit is concerned, they might be able to find a solution similar to the one used by Maerklin, Hag and Roco for the Ae 6/6, which involved trimming of the bogie details to allow for proper rotation.
The question of whether modellers would rather have cut outs, movable skirting or adapted bogies is one that hopefully LS Models has asked.
For me, my preference would be for the non-visible parts of the bogies to be modified. Any such modification would only be visible when looking at the model inverted in a handheld position.

In any case, it will not be too much longer before we find out. The latest photos that I have seen seem to suggest that only the motor unit has significant modifications:

http://web.lerelaisinter...om/railway/ls_models.htm

Regards

Mike C
Offline AshleyH  
#4 Posted : 04 July 2013 00:27:52(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
Hmmmm.....I am not too keen on the look of the motor coach.

The others looks OK, like maybe they have taken the Ae6/6 approach to the bogies.

I do like the grey corridor connections though. If the Marklin model had those it would be so much better.
I wonder if anyone has made after-market connectors to fit the Marklin model?
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 04 July 2013 17:56:31(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
It still is not clear whether the connectors will be for static display only or whether there is some system to permit the use in normal operation. The Lima model had a pivoting piece to reproduce the connectors, but this worked best with large radii and had to be removed for smaller radii operation. HUI Modellbau used a fabric piece to connect the coaches on their "improved" version of the Lima model. Maerklin's solution left a lot to be desired. For me, a connector similar to the one used by either Roco or RailTop/LSM on their models of the RAm would have been a suitable compromise, which would have yielded the appearance of a seamless connection.

I am hoping that we will see some final photos very soon. The ones posted on the website I linked to still do not have pantographs and the couplings and other details seem to indicate that these are still demonstrator models and not the final thing.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 16 July 2013 18:09:09(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Here are one dealer's photos of the new models, showing the LS Models solution to the design of the bogies and coach bodies:

http://www.reisezugwagen.eu/?p=14933

Still waiting for photos/video of the gangway connectors in operation.
Just found this one, but it is a little dark: http://www.tecnomodel-tr...g/24920-3.jpg?1373908401

Regards

Mike C
Offline AshleyH  
#7 Posted : 16 July 2013 18:15:11(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
I am sorry to say that I think the motor coach looks horrendous!
Much worse cut outs than the Märklin version.

Märklin took a lot of flak for their model, I think this proves that much of it was unjustified.
It must be very difficult to make a model of this to go around curves.

The LS Model is a lot of Euros too. A shame, but not for me. Finding a solution to the Märklin corridor connectors will be the way forward for me.

Did you pre-order one of these Mike?
Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 17 July 2013 01:40:36(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I like the LS Models solution much better than the Maerklin design. On the LSM version, only the sections adjacent to the inner and outmost axles on the motor bogies move. On the Maerklin version, the side of the coach body over the bogies pivoted and resulted in a visually disturbing sight when the train was on a curve.

The earlier Lima model had the coach bodies cut out adjacent to the bogies for layout operation with clip-in parts for use on display models.
Last year's Rivarossi re-edition of the Lima model had the same design as the 1980s Lima model.

The LSM model has resolved this issue on all of the coaches except for the motor unit and does come with the parts for a seamless appearance for display models.

I think that although the LSM model still has some weak points, that the conception is in general, way better than any previous model of the Gottardo.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#9 Posted : 17 July 2013 03:02:11(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I like the LS Models solution much better than the Maerklin design. On the LSM version, only the sections adjacent to the inner and outmost axles on the motor bogies move. On the Maerklin version, the side of the coach body over the bogies pivoted and resulted in a visually disturbing sight when the train was on a curve.



It will always be disturbing seeing a train going through a curve and allowing you to see a great part of the width of the track from the top. I must say I don't like the look of the motor unit at all either. I generally like LSM products quite a lot but in this particular case I am not sure they've matched what they have been producing before, roof detail looks nice though.

Offline jeehring  
#10 Posted : 17 July 2013 03:39:01(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
The internet campaign against the Marklin model was somewhat...odious (ridiculous ? Wink ) ! Dozens & dozens of close-up photo showing the Marklin model on R1 or R2 curves,..... never on a straight line.
I would like to see the LSM runs on 360mm radius curves ....RollEyes
I'm also curious to see LSM diaphragms between coaches : are they made of a flexible material or is it just a piece of plastic used to hide the connections ?
(I'm more than convinced that solution exists with extensible material close to the prototype)
Anyway...The LSM's promise of a model without visible compromise ? ..... Bet lost !
(I'm not even talking about dimensions: body width, space between body and rails, wheels...wait and see )

Edited by user 17 July 2013 12:20:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline mike c  
#11 Posted : 17 July 2013 08:24:59(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Jeehring,

I don't want to start the whole Marklin Gottardo thing again, but this is what they tempted us with (Photo 1) and this is what they actually delivered (Photo 2)

It was already reported that the LSM model was designed for larger radii, probably minimum 430mm (R2). I guess we will see whether it can run on R1 once somebody posts more photos or the instructions are described on the web.

There have been a few photos showing the fabric connectors for use on the operation model. The detail seems similar to the solution used by HUI on their rebuild of the Lima model.
http://forum.e-train.fr/...nload/file.php?id=219877

Incidentally, there is quite the debate going on in the french forum: http://forum.e-train.fr/...mp;t=49517&start=300

Regards

Mike C
mike c attached the following image(s):
MK 39540.jpg
MK 39540 SwissToy3.jpg
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Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 17 July 2013 08:40:04(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
LSM with bogie for operation: http://forum.e-train.fr/...nload/file.php?id=220233

LSM with bogie for display/large radii operation: http://forum.e-train.fr/...nload/file.php?id=220232

Maerklin Model (Motor unit on straight track): http://hag-info.ch/hag/f..._MK_RAe_Motorwagen_1.jpg

Lima Model (Motor bogie):
mike c attached the following image(s):
Lima Bogie.jpg
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Offline jeehring  
#13 Posted : 17 July 2013 12:03:53(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
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Location: ,
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Jeehring,

I don't want to start the whole Marklin Gottardo thing again, but this is what they tempted us with (Photo 1) and this is what they actually delivered (Photo 2)

....
Regards

Mike C


Once again....picture of LSM model on a straight line....picture of the Marklin model on a curved line.....LOL ....

Offline AshleyH  
#14 Posted : 17 July 2013 12:27:55(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
I think we had better leave this one guys.

We must accept that this is a difficult prototype to model in 1:87 for use on curves.

There are now 3 solutions on the market and all are a compromise, it is down to each person to decide which is best for them.
Offline mike c  
#15 Posted : 17 July 2013 17:51:27(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Here are two pictures of the LSM motor unit with the bogies in curved position:

http://i76.photobucket.c...P1110942_zps2593ba42.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.c...P1110940_zpsad43bc00.jpg

IMHO better than the Maerklin and Lima solutions

Regards

Mike C
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Offline mike c  
#16 Posted : 18 July 2013 02:36:56(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
More photos of the new LSM model: http://www.trenietreni.i...9-467a-82a3-0aa1ce6a15ae
Offline Marius in Africa  
#17 Posted : 18 July 2013 03:33:33(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 419
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
More photos of the new LSM model: http://www.trenietreni.i...9-467a-82a3-0aa1ce6a15ae


I suppose "Rcurv 420" refers to no R1 curve capability! This also mean no place on my layout.
Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 18 July 2013 13:09:09(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
In my opinion the LS solution is no more visually attractive than the Marklin one. It might be the least accurate to the prototype, but I have to say that the Lima solution is the one which is most plausible visually. By this I mean that if the real train had had a problem with tight curves they would have cut away the body in the same way as Lima did.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline mike c  
#19 Posted : 18 July 2013 19:30:30(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Ray,

with all due respect, the LSM design has only a bogie/body issue with the motor unit and not with all five (Maerklin) or six coaches (Lima/Rivarossi).
This is a marked improvement over both previous designs.
The Lima model was very visibly altered in that the cutouts could be seen on all coaches when used on an operational layout.
The Maerklin model is not too bad when viewed from the side, but when viewed from above, the extended red "wings" make the train look more like "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" than like the TEE Gottardo.

This issue has come up with other models in the past. Most major manufacturers have had to come up with solutions for models where the prototype did not allow for adequate bogie rotation on model train radii curves.

The solution to the issue requires compromise. The question is whether this compromise should be external (on the body) or internal (on the bogies) which may be less visible.
For example, you can reduce the extension of the bogies by designing the bogies with the wheels situated closer together than on the actual prototype, which would enable the bogies to rotate more without contacting the coach body. You can design the bogies using smaller diameter wheel sets (e.g. 10mm or 9mm), which may allow for more clearance on the bottom than if using the prototypical 11mm size, which would rub against the coach body.

I personally, would prefer a less visible compromise, like the wheel size or the axle spacing, it it means that the model can operate properly. This would then allow the manufacturer to offer replacement bogies without modifications and with full size wheel sets to those who have extra large radii layouts or those who are using the model for display only. This, in my opinion, would be infinitely better than having visually detracting modifications to the coach body while having prototypical bogies that are not readily visible even on the actual prototype.

On most models of the Ae 6/6, the bogie sides have been trimmed or filed down so that the bogie can rotate without impacting on the plough. This is an example of what I mean by compromising on the non-visible parts of the model. To me, this is much preferable to having a reduced size plough or cut outs on the side of the lok so that the bogie can rotate.

HUI took the Lima model and twerked it so that it could be operated without the removable body parts as well as designed a better solution for the connections between the coaches. It seems that LSM has taken inspiration from that model to design a similar solution for it's model.

I am looking forward to receiving my LSM Gottardo once the AC version is released. I trust that it will be a very nice model and based on my previous experience with LS Models, am confident that any issues with the model will duly be addressed and corrected.

I did read the comments in the french forum and found many of them to be a little ridiculous. For example, one complaint pertained to the panel between the gangway and the driver's compartment in the pilot coaches, which according to the poster, should be glass and not solid. I looked at photos of the Maerklin, Metropolitan (4Assi/Pocher) and Lima models and determined that they all have the same design.

I am surprised that now that it has been out, that we have not seen more photos of the coach connectors. In this regard, I fault the manufacturers, the dealers and members for not posting information that most people are curious about. The Trenietreni.it page provides a lot of information (symbols), including minimum radii of 420mm (R2) that was not available from other sources. It would be nice if LSM would have posted photos of the completed model and more details about the operational requirements for the model. The best photos that I have seen are probably the ones from reisezugwagen.eu, but it would have been a good idea to properly install the side panels so that they were flush.

I had the best version of the Lima train (189931). I sold it when I got my 39540, mainly because the Maerklin one was digital and it would have been complicated to convert the Lima train to digital, given that it had only single wire current conducting couplings. I probably will keep my 39540, but am looking forward to the LSM version.

My only concern is that the train is labelled for the Cisalpin (Paris-Vallorbe-Lausanne-Brig-Milano) but I would rather have the Zurich-Lugano-Como-Milano TEE Gottardo inscriptions on my train. I hope that the destination signs are interchangeable and that the set comes with alternate ones.

Regards

Mike C
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 18 July 2013 19:55:40(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Mike,

With all due respect, please don't answer my comments with a thousand word essay. I know you have different opinions on modelling to me (and many others here I think!) but you don't have to go out of your way to try and convert me to your ways! It just gets tedious to plough through such a long answer, especially as it was not asked for.

Allow me to pen my own opinion without it being trampled on, and I will continue to read and appreciate your excellent contributions whether they are appropriate or not to my style of railway modelling.

Agree to differ?....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline mike c  
#21 Posted : 19 July 2013 09:39:02(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Ray,

only the first paragraph was in response to your message. The other 950 words were just my comment on how technical/visual challenges should best be circumvented.

Regards

Mike C
Offline jeehring  
#22 Posted : 19 July 2013 14:27:07(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Ray,

I did read the comments in the french forum and found many of them to be a little ridiculous. For example, one complaint pertained to the panel between the gangway and the driver's compartment in the pilot coaches, which according to the poster, should be glass and not solid.....

Regards

Mike C


you could report other comments as well , for example about the visible mold fittings at the junction between the frontside and lateral side of the pilot cars*** .... or an amateur experience in a store that has opened two boxes with missing parts before .... finding a complete box ...

or ... that two types of gangway and two types of skirts are provided: one type for static display (impossible to ride with), another type to roll ....
Actually photos show the plastic gangway for static display. The gangway for playing/rolling is made of tissue (clothe) ...
etc....etc....

**** it makes me wonder about the width of the car bodies, and if the 1:87 scale was followed......with that kind of manufacturer I became suspicious ( ... ......Angry Mad Sneaky ....) ?

Edited by user 19 July 2013 18:53:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline mike c  
#23 Posted : 19 July 2013 18:32:51(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
My experience with LS Models has been very good. Every problem with a model has been solved by the company. They replaced a broken bogie on a SBB RIC (47220), replaced the shells on other SBB RIC (47214/47231). They provided the missing steps from my 17501 RAm TEE right away.

My experience is that LSM has been very proactive with support and I thank Orhan and Daniel Piron for their assistance.

I have ordered the AC Sound version of the trainset, which will only be released in about a month (or so). I take it that these models are still in production and I trust that any problems will be rectified.

There has been criticism of the various Gottardo models since day 1. The Lima model had shortcomings in terms of the cut-outs on the coach bodies, the problematic connectors between the coaches. The Maerklin model had shortcomings in terms of the connectors and the visible couplings between the coaches. The pivoting body panels which resulted in neither the coach body nor the bogies being prototypical was not a great solution for many.
Today, we are talking about the new LSM model and once again, people have taken issue with the four little parts which LSM has developed as a solution for the bogie rotation issue on the motor coach. The other 5 coaches operate without any cut-outs or visible modifications. This, by itself, should already put the model above the other models in some regards.

While I still am very happy with my Maerklin model, because it is metal, I am looking forward to the LSM model and I trust that if most modellers are displeased with the mold line lightly visible on the pilot coach, that LSM will solve the issue like they did with the missing rain gutter on the 47214/47231.

I don't think that Maerklin would ever have considered a replacement program for the green connectors on their Gottardo.

As far as the gangway connectors. I would have been satisfied with a similar design to the ones used on the RailTop or Roco RAm model. It was not important that this was not 100% prototypical for the Gottardo. For me, the appearance of a seamless connection between the coaches was primordial and as long as that was accomplished in a way that allowed for trouble free operation of the trainset, it was ok for me.
I do not expect perfection. We all know that some compromises are often necessary to permit operation on the average curves used in model RR.

According to Trenietreni.it, the trainset has a total length of 1690mm. If divided by 6, each coach would be 282mm long. That would work out to approximately 1/88.

I had the Metropolitan (4 Assi/Pocher) model. I sold it when I bought the AC Lima model.
I remember test running my Lima trainset without the connectors because they had a tendency to slip and could cause derailment. I had considered trying to get a number of the HUI redesign gangways to upgrade the model. I finally sold the Lima set and ordered the Maerklin one.

All the while, I have been looking forward to the LSM version.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see how Lematec addresses these issues on their planned brass model.

Regards

Mike C


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Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 19 July 2013 18:56:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Tastes are different. Three companies made models of the same prototype at different times and for different audiences. That's fine, isn't it?
They would sell less units if they all targeted the same audiences.

Those who have to run their trains on 360 mm curves will not buy the new LS Models train.
Those who prefer length scale 1:87 may shy away from the Märklin model.
Those who like simple solutions may prefer the Lima model.
Those who prefer metal models have to consider the Märklin model.

Impossible to make everybody happy with one model. So it's good we have a choice.

The design of the LS Models train looks good on straight track (even though the gaps are somewhat big) and promises trouble-free operation on the layout.
I don't have a RAe/RABe yet and have no intentions to get one. If I wanted one I'd get it from LSM.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jvuye  
#25 Posted : 19 July 2013 19:16:09(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Tastes are different. Three companies made models of the same prototype at different times and for different audiences. That's fine, isn't it?
They would sell less units if they all targeted the same audiences.

Those who have to run their trains on 360 mm curves will not buy the new LS Models train.
Those who prefer length scale 1:87 may shy away from the Märklin model.
Those who like simple solutions may prefer the Lima model.
Those who prefer metal models have to consider the Märklin model.

Impossible to make everybody happy with one model. So it's good we have a choice.

The design of the LS Models train looks good on straight track (even though the gaps are somewhat big) and promises trouble-free operation on the layout.
I don't have a RAe/RABe yet and have no intentions to get one. If I wanted one I'd get it from LSM.


Words of wisdom...ThumpUp

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline mike c  
#26 Posted : 21 July 2013 02:17:20(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I was reading the assorted comments in the Drehscheibe Online (German), Forum LR Presse (French), Duegieditrice (Italian) and this is all that I have to say...

While this image does not show the cloth connectors between the coaches, it still shows a better rendition of the model than the previous Lima/Rivarossi or Maerklin/Trix versions
Only the motor coach has a modified coach body. The remaining coaches all are designed without need for cut-outs or moving panels.
For those who don't like the aesthetic appearance of the little red panels that move, you can likely remove the red panels and have small cut-outs that will still look better than the Lima or Maerklin models.

http://www.huenerbein.de/yanis4...17021@$@800@$@600@$@.jpg

The Huenerbein photo gives a good impression of what the train will look like on the layout from eye level, and from what I can see, it looks pretty impressive.

I remember when Maerklin was planning their model and I suggested that they should use a gangway system similar to the ones used by LSM/RailTop and Roco in their models of the diesel RAm. The response seemed to be the people thought that a fixed connection was better than having a simulated connection at the end of each coach and that the design of the RAm Edelweiss was different from that of the Rae Gottardo in that regard.

A while back, the Swiss small manufacturer HUI, based in the Engadin, released a small batch of modified Lima models, where the coach bodies had the cutouts filled in and the Lima connectors were replaced by cloth ones. It seems that LS Models was inspired by this solution and developed a similar solution for their new production.

I have to give credit to LSM for coming up with a solution to most of the issues that were brought up about prior models. They seem to have done a good job.
I would still like to see official photos of how the train looks with the connectors in place.

I guess that anybody who is not happy with the new model, can choose from any of the older models (Metropolitan/4Assi/Pocher, Lima/Rivarossi, Maerklin/Trix) or can wait for the Lematec model due out in late 2014 http://www.rittech.ch/info/Tec/HO-216.pdf. FTR, the Swiss price for the Lematec model will be just under 5000 CHF, five times the price of the LSM model.

It was also interesting to note that there has not been too much discussion of this new model in Stummi's Forum.

Regards

Mike C

Edited by user 24 July 2013 20:40:44(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline mike c  
#27 Posted : 22 July 2013 03:29:57(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I noticed that I was credited with posting a photo in this forum by an author in the Forums LR Presse Forum in France. I was identified in that post as Mick C from Montreal. The photos that I mentioned (above) came from a Dutch webpage.

http://forum.e-train.fr/...mp;t=49517&start=420

Here are links to some of the ongoing discussions in other languages:

French: http://forum.e-train.fr/...opic.php?f=2&t=49517

Italian: http://www.forum-duegied...pic.php?f=21&t=71525

German: http://www.drehscheibe-f...oren/read.php?10,6479770

Dutch: http://forum.beneluxspoo...60711.html#msg3221360711

See also: http://www.hetgroterdamp...:lsmodels&Itemid=113
(Very comprehensive with lots of photos, including photos of the connectors in place!!!!!)

Here is a photo that I found on the beneluxspoor forum, but you can't see the connectors (again): http://www.beneluxspoor.org/bnls/DSC_0127_5.jpg

Regards

Mike C
aka Mick C ;)
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Offline mike c  
#28 Posted : 22 July 2013 17:15:29(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I earlier provided the link to the page for the Gottardo from European dealer Reisezugwagen.eu. I noted this morning that he has expanded the page to include photos with both types of connectors.
Here is the link again: http://www.reisezugwagen.eu/?p=14933
Here is the link to the large size photo of the fabric connector: http://www.reisezugwagen...20;bergang_Betrieb-1.jpg

I have also decided what solution I would have liked to see for this model, and that is a movable connector similar to the ones on the LSM/RT and Roco RAm TEE models. The end pieces could have come in two sizes, a full size one for people who wanted to run their models as is, and a slightly smaller version that could be covered by a fabric material, creating a fixed connection between coaches for those who insisted on a more uniform appearance. The added benefit of this design would be that the parts inside the fabric would maintain more rigidity in the appearance of the material, which would probably improve the appearance.

I was able to confirm from a photo of the box posted on tecnomodel-treni.it that the model comes with destination signs for the TEE Cisalpin (Paris-Lausanne-Milano), TEE Edelweiss (Zurich-Basel-Bruxelles) and Iris (Bruxelles-Basel-Zurich). I am a little disappointed that the model does not come with the classic TEE Gottardo destination signs (Zurich-Gotthard-Milano) as well, and I will be contacting LSM about this.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Unholz  
#29 Posted : 22 July 2013 18:51:37(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
I don't really want to pour any oil into the fire, but I can't resist mentioning the following things:

- Is the awful brownish color which appears in the photos on the Reisezugwagen.eu link provided by Mike really "true" or caused by photography/reproduction errors?
- What do you make of the following picture comparison? Please look closely at the shape/size of the lamp housings or the distance between the snow plow and the bogie/truck front.

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

(Pictures © by www.reisezugwagen.eu and SBB Historic)
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Offline mike c  
#30 Posted : 24 July 2013 20:38:17(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Stefan:

Thanks for bringing the snow plough issue to my attention. I have addressed this in a message to LSM, in addition to my concerns about the gangway connections and the fact that the trainset comes with the destination signs for the Cisalpin, Iris and Edelweiss but not for the Gottardo (Zurich-Gotthard-Como-Milano) or the Ticino.

LSM has been amazing when it comes to responding to customer complaints and concerns. They have replaced parts on models that were delivered damaged or defective and have been very quick to reply to my messages in the past. I can't think of another manufacturer that has been so on-point in this regard. I hope to hear back from Orhan or Daniel in a few days.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#31 Posted : 25 July 2013 00:39:22(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Since we are here I think Marklin did a better job in the shape and angle of the windscreen, light, skirt distance and the shape of the lower part of the front seems to be a lot more curvy like the prototyope, still not perfect but the LS version seems in no way round enough. The coupler on the LS seems way too long too. On the plus side for the LS the hand rail on the door looks much better and the hand rail under the windscreen is much more up too scale. In the marklin model it is a tad too thick. Frame on side of door is less accurate on the LS.
Iamnotthecrazyone attached the following image(s):
sbb.jpg
Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 25 July 2013 08:03:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I'm unsure which model better meets the angle of the windscreen as the three photos have been taken from different angles.
Märklin's model has the largest train destination boards - and due to the "new longer length" the gap between board and door is rather slim.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#33 Posted : 25 July 2013 15:37:44(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I'm unsure which model better meets the angle of the windscreen as the three photos have been taken from different angles.
Märklin's model has the largest train destination boards - and due to the "new longer length" the gap between board and door is rather slim.


I think despite of small angle differences on those photos there are other photos available of the LS models and still show a big diference in size in between the widest and the narrowest part of the windscreen compared to the original. The Marklin Board is too big in my opinion too and I had missed the distance to the door. Both brands failed to have a proper scale pillar in between the side window and the windscreen.

Like with the renditions of many other models, there is always good and bad. The bogies in the Marklin are a compromise I accept, I would prefer it if it was more like the original but I find the gaps in the motor unit of the LS more annoying. I am convinced the front side is by far more prototypically accurate in the Marklin. One thing that I felt short changed with was the sound and the one colour interiors. The rest I can live with. Haven't Rivarossi made this model and quite recently too?
Offline jeehring  
#34 Posted : 25 July 2013 16:20:34(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
...
In your opinion which of the three trains shows the biggest space between the body and the rails ....RollEyes Sneaky Tongue .....?
...don't you find that one of them is higher on rails ?...Blink Drool

Edited by user 25 July 2013 20:17:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline mike c  
#35 Posted : 25 July 2013 18:02:37(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
A few years back, many people in this forum had an issue with one member who had a tendency to post cryptic messages. I think that if any of us have something to say, they should come out and say it. Very few of us have actually seen the LS Models Gottardo, other than in photos. If anybody has seen the actual model and wants to contribute, please feel free to do so.
If LSM increased the space between the rails and the body in order to solve the issue of the need for modifications to the coach bodies to permit the rotation of the bogies, this should be viewed in terms of how it appears vis-a-vis alternate solutions and might present a suitable compromise for many members. What is important is that people know why such a solution may have been implemented and what benefits it may offer in terms of operation or appearance. If having the trainset ride a mm or two higher than exact scale means that there are less unsightly cut-outs or pivoting panels, it might not be a bad thing.

Regards

Mike C
Offline danmarklinman  
#36 Posted : 25 July 2013 23:41:23(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,377
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
A few years back, many people in this forum had an issue with one member who had a tendency to post cryptic messages. I think that if any of us have something to say, they should come out and say it. Very few of us have actually seen the LS Models Gottardo, other than in photos. If anybody has seen the actual model and wants to contribute, please feel free to do so.
If LSM increased the space between the rails and the body in order to solve the issue of the need for modifications to the coach bodies to permit the rotation of the bogies, this should be viewed in terms of how it appears vis-a-vis alternate solutions and might present a suitable compromise for many members. What is important is that people know why such a solution may have been implemented and what benefits it may offer in terms of operation or appearance. If having the trainset ride a mm or two higher than exact scale means that there are less unsightly cut-outs or pivoting panels, it might not be a bad thing.

Regards

Mike C


Hi Mike I think if you look to close to any model from any one manufacturer then you will find fault! If it please you to buy LSmodels then buy one its your choice. No one else's! I have looked at lsmodels just lately. But I have to say I have been put off by the price and availability of them. All of those items I wanted we're not available and did not have a delivery date! So I have gone back and got some more Marklin.
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
Wiking model car Fan
Faller fan including car system
Instagram: marklin1978
Wiking fan
Offline mike c  
#37 Posted : 26 July 2013 02:45:35(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Dan,

If you read my posts above, you would have noticed that I had the Metropolitan 7200 (4Assi/Pocher) (DC Analog). I sold that one and got the limited edition Lima model 189931 (2003) in AC. I sold that one and got the Maerklin 39540 because it was digital and because it was made of metal. Even at that time, I was looking forward to the announced model from RailTop/LS Models. If I do buy the LSM one, I still have the Maerklin one as well.

As far as LS Models in general, the company's name says it all. Limited Scale Models. They make limited productions of each model. Some models have been announced, but have not yet been produced. Others were produced a while back and may still be found on ebay or at shops that had ordered additional quantities. Your best bet would be to search in the country that the model represents, because that is where the shops are more likely to have ordered greater quantities.

I just recently completed my LS Models Citynightline consists in both blue and red/white as well as my OBB Euronight consists (both Era V and Era VI) and they are very beautiful and I do not mind that it took over 5 years to complete.

In the UK, you can try C&M Models or Contikits for LSM product. Other excellent sources would be Huenerbein in Aachen, Germany or Jocadis in Enghien, Belgium.

I am sure that any of those dealers would be happy to assist you and to let you know when the models might be available.
For your convenience, the site http://web.lerelaisinter...om/railway/ls_models.htm offers a PDF download of the most recent LSM production plans, so that you can tell what is due in the next month or two.

Regards

Mike C


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Offline mike c  
#38 Posted : 26 July 2013 03:39:13(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The following message was posted in Forum LR Presse by user Piron Daniel

Piron Daniel a écrit:
Concernant le modèle Rae, nous étudions une solution pour le bogie moteur. Une decoupe en bout, pas très esthétique, mais permettant de passer un rayon de 50 cm. Cette pièce sera accessible aux propriétaires de rames Rae. Solution j avais adoptée en son temps sur ma rame Lima. Pour les soufflets nous n avons à ce jour trouve aucune alternative vraiment fonctionnelle, souple et plus esthétique. Patientez encore un peu avant de sortir vos cutters.

"Regarding the RAe model, we are studying a solution for the motor bogie. A modified housing that is not very aesthetic, but will permit the use on radii inferior to 500mm. These parts will be available to owners of the RAe trainsets. This is similar to the solution that I came up with for my Lima trainset years ago. For the gangway connectors, we have not as yet found a functional alternative, smooth and better looking. Please wait a little while before getting out your X-actos."

http://forum.e-train.fr/...mp;t=49517&start=525

Interesting news

Regards

Mike C
Offline xxup  
#39 Posted : 26 July 2013 03:55:26(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
... These parts will be available to owners of the RAe trainsets. This is similar to the solution that I came up with for my Lima trainset years ago. For the gangway connectors, we have not as yet found a functional alternative, smooth and better looking. Please wait a little while before getting out your X-actos."....


Very impressive level of service on many levels. Not only is the organisation keen to fix a problem, they will also trust their customers to implement the fix. It would be nice if Marklin would look after the Thalys owners in this way too..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline jeehring  
#40 Posted : 26 July 2013 18:50:48(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Yes, Mister Piron is very good in announcements ThumpUp . 7 years ago he announced his RAe model as well...RollEyes Blink
Specially on this forum LSM team is quite active ...

Edited by user 27 July 2013 16:54:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline mike c  
#41 Posted : 30 July 2013 06:43:41(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
There has been a lot of discussion in French, German and Italian forums about the gangway connections between coaches.
I see no reason why the solution adapted for the Roco, LSM/RailTop and Lemaco RAm diesel TEE trains could not be modified to work on the Gottardo as well.
Matter of fact, the earliest Gottardo model from Metrop/4Assi/Pocher had a very similar design:

http://www.hr4920.de/Web...D/8961/34F9/L1720686.JPG

One solution adopted by Metrop for their model was to make the model ride a little high on the wheels, which enabled them to avoid having to make cut-outs in the coach bodies to permit bogie rotation.
The other manufacturers wanted a more prototypical appearance (height), so they decided on various other solutions. It would seem to me that the optimal solution would be modification of the non visible parts underneath the coach bodies (i.e. modified bogies) that would not change the appearance of the train from eye level and would permit operation on tighter radii without visibly compromising the coach body.

http://www.train-passion.../gallery/7200-d/d-01.jpg

The fabric cover for the gangways was a solution adopted by HUI Modellbau for their redesign of the Lima trainset. It seems that LSM has opted for a similar solution for their new model.
I see no reason why having a design similar to the RAm would not be feasible. Here is a photo of the solution from the Lemaco version:

http://www.messingers.ch...m/Lem_RAm_501_SBB_07.JPG

Certainly, this looks better that the crumpled fabric shown in some of the photos of the current LSM design.
http://forum.e-train.fr/...nload/file.php?id=221323

One other option that had occurred to me would be to have an optional version of the RAm type baffles that would be smaller in size and would permit the installation of a cloth cover which would have a similar appearance to the current cloth design, but would have the added rigidity due to the plastic underneath, thereby avoiding the crushed appearance of the actual LSM design.

I hope that LSM continues to improve their model and that we finally get a model that meets our expectations without having to fork out the $5000 + that the Lematec model is expected to cost next year.

http://www.rittech.ch/info/Tec/HO-216.pdf

FYI, check out this YouTube video of the new model with lighting and sounds:


Regards

Mike C
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Offline mike c  
#42 Posted : 06 August 2013 06:30:04(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Can somebody please explain why they could not use the same solution as the Lemaco, Roco and LSM RAm diesel trainset for the connectors between coaches? When I suggested it, I was told that the design was different from the RAe. If I look at this photo, they seem pretty similar to me. http://www.flickr.com/photos/41...ol-1392570@N20/lightbox/

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#43 Posted : 21 September 2013 19:57:19(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I was just reading in a French forum that LSM will be providing an upgrade kit for purchasers of the Gottardo trainset. This update kit will include modified bogie parts for the motor unit, which will allow for operation on some additional radii while using the closed skirting. The kit will also contain gangway connectors similar to those used for the LSM/RailTop RAm Diesel TEE for those who wish to replace the fabric connectors. I do not expect the new bogies to be usable under 420mm, but it will enable R2 or larger with seamless appearance.

Looking forward to this model more and more.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#44 Posted : 28 March 2014 05:31:13(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I received a message from my dealer informing me that the 17521S RAe TEE Gottardo (AC Digital Sound) will be arriving in the next week or two. I am looking forward to see what modifications have been made to the bogies and skirting of the coaches and to the gangway connectors between coaches. I am also curious about the sounds.

UPDATE: The dealer posted that the model has arrived. I expect mine to be shipped out shortly and it should be in my possession by next week.

Regards

Mike C

Edited by user 28 March 2014 22:34:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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