Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline NS1200  
#1 Posted : 01 June 2013 12:15:28(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Yesterday 31 May 2013 Belgian railways NMBS have cancelled the entire order for the Italian made Fyra highspeed trains.
The brandnew trains made by Ansaldobreda are considered to be unsafe and of poor building quality.
Independent experts have stated that the breaking system is fit for maximum 160 km/h,whereas the trains are supposed to have a service speed of 250 km/h between Amsterdam/Rotterdam/Antwerp/Brussels.
Dutch railways NS will make a decision mid June but are expected to follow NMBS.
It is said that the loss for NS alone is 300 million Euro.
Study is underway to extend the Eurostar from Brussels to Amsterdam.
In the meantime regular Fyra trains run the service 8 times a day,using standard coaches and hired German locomotives.

Paul.

Edited by user 08 June 2013 08:35:24(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline Webmaster  
#2 Posted : 01 June 2013 22:11:40(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Well, this is typical for today's business climate - sell on promises, not quality...
There is so much money wasted everywhere nowadays when decision makers only look at economy without real knowledge about the delivery requirements... ThumbDown
Happens in all kinds of "business negotiations" where knowledgeable technicians are not involved until after the "business process"...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Webmaster
Offline NS1200  
#3 Posted : 02 June 2013 09:05:49(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Juhan,

You have a point.
Within the EC there is however also the political angle in respect of fair bidding.
These rules are such that even if a Dutch company would be able to build these trains,the lowest price elsewhere would attract the order!
This is the European Community in its most ugly form.
The file on this disasterious failure must be holding thousends of pages and i do not know the contents of those.
I must assume that at least German and French companies have been involved in the bidding process.
The French TGV is running daily from Amsterdam to Paris,the German ICE is running daily from Amsterdam to Cologne and Frankfurt.
The companies building these successful trains must have been more expensive than Ansaldobreda,i guess.
I do recall when the technical problems became apparent in last January maker Ansaldobreda stated they would solve the problems in a couple of days!
Sounds to me like the designer of Titanic who said the ship was unsinkable.

Even our national TV reporters have no clue what they are talking about (only the Marklin Users Forum has!).
Last night they were reporting on the issue showing the regular Fyra trains pulled by German leased locomotives,not the longnosed Italian made trains!
Makes you wonder whether our politicians know how a train lookes like.
Me being a shippingman i spot TV reporters using the word tanker for a containership or the other way around,indicating the level of knowledge teached on schools nowadays.

Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 02 June 2013 09:18:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
No comment.

Edited by user 02 June 2013 19:44:01(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline NS1200  
#5 Posted : 02 June 2013 14:15:57(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
The ICE accident at Enschede was on 3rd june 1998,that is 15 years ago.
As such i conclude that the ICE is a successful train.

I cannot see the need for high speed trains other than as a means of competing against local European airlines.
In Holland,the multiple passenger units type Koploper have been in service for decades without hardly any mechanical failure.
Likewise,the multiple units type IRM and VIRM,the backbone of intercity traffic,are known to be very reliable.
All these units have a service speed of 140 km/h in day to day service.

Our politicians demand a high speed service to Brussels so that they can sleep there for the rest of the day!
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 02 June 2013 16:46:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
No comment.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline NS1200  
#7 Posted : 02 June 2013 18:53:14(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Ho,

Remember this was my topic?
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by NS1200
H0
Offline Webmaster  
#8 Posted : 02 June 2013 20:25:46(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
The real problem is really that some legislation say you have to get several offers and get the "best offer"possible. If you just wish to get an offer from your "trusted dealer" who knows what you need, you will be accused of being biased towards that dealer and impeding the free market. In public/state affairs, this is a definite no-no, and also in private business it seems like company economists have assimilated this idea...

Usually this means the "best offer" is the "cheapest offer" by economical terms, not the best offer that suits the technical needs as intended.
This certainly also goes for purchase decisions in private companies ruled by numbers-only-eyed economy guys and not so knowledgeable technical guys...

I have myself just experienced this in our own company... An expensive investment for computer & communication hardware bought the "cheapest" way... Meant that some basic crucial bits were neglected/forgotten when ordering & signing the contract... And now we have to buy/wait for additional/replacement parts that are needed to get the project moving... It was supposed to be implemented now, but we are still waiting - costs a lot more than if the purchase process had been done properly from the start with the correct specs...

That's why I write in this topic - myself feeling similar frustration as NS must feel right now...


@H0 - your comments are very good, too bad you deleted them... Moderators can restore, if you wish...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Webmaster
H0
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 02 June 2013 21:39:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
@H0 - your comments are very good, too bad you deleted them... Moderators can restore, if you wish...
It's Paul's thread (and I don't want to hijack it). I could restore them myself (maybe in a different thread). Thanks for your feedback.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 03 June 2013 18:14:52(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I understand that DSO is reporting today that the NS have also followed suit and terminated the project. It seems likely that they will continue to use the leased Traxx and Austrian coaches for a while longer.

Regards

Mike C
Offline NS1200  
#11 Posted : 04 June 2013 06:48:05(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
NS have indeed decided to bail out yesterday.
CEO Meerstadt has resigned and will be followed up by the CEO of the Dutch flower export association (!).
Our politicians demand a proper solution from NS shortly.
Papers say that the financial damage for NS is around Euro 600.- million (!) because of all the investments already made.
Read that this damage will be paid by the Dutch tax payers at the end of the day.

Meanwhile our national parliament has called for an official hearing on the subject,which is considered the most powerful tool in our democracy.

It is unlikely that the damage can be claimed from makers Ansaldobreda.
They are likely to go bankrupt anyway.

Paul.

Edited by user 04 June 2013 20:51:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline NS1200  
#12 Posted : 09 June 2013 17:49:19(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
We just took the conventional Fyra from Amsterdam to Rotterdam and this was just perfect.
At a speed of some 160 km/h under the 25,000 volts overhead lines it only takes half an hour between the two cities.
The train is being pulled by German series 185 electric loco's,pulling standard Intercity coaches.
The Fyra does not stop anywhere in between.
End stop of the conventional Fyra is Breda,some 40 km south of Rotterdam.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SQCFVBDmMg
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 09 June 2013 19:37:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
The train is being pulled by German series 185 electric loco's,pulling standard Intercity coaches.
I'm sorry for posting in your thread again, but German BR 185 locos have a maximum speed of 140 km/h.
The FYRA trains are hauled by E 186 locos (AFAIK mostly from Belgium and the Netherlands) and those have a maximum speed of 160 km/h.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline NS1200  
#14 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:15:17(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Tom,

You are correct.
Series 186 it is!
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 05 April 2014 21:03:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

I think it wasn't posted on this forum yet: the famous V 250 trains go back to AnsaldoBreda, NS will receive a refund of € 125 millions. If AB finds a new buyer for the trains, NS can get up to € 21 millions more.
See also:
http://www.dutchnews.nl/...-speed_train_debacle.php
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline river6109  
#16 Posted : 06 April 2014 04:53:50(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
We don't have these problems in Australia, we build more roads and more roads. We've been talking about high speed trains from Sydney to Canberra for decades but nothing ever eventuates. instead of buying new trains or carriages, we rip the seats out so more people can travel in a standing position and of course at every election, new train lines are announced to sweeten their appetite to vote for them and after the election it is than announced a study has revealed we don't really need these new train lines, we don't have studies what is viable and economical in 10 or 20 years time and by the time we decide what to buy they are outdated and the public always gets the latest news, we have the best airports in the world, the best roads in the world but trains are not on a discussion platform.
so when we talk about money being wasted and what the taxpayer has to contribute to we don't even get to this stage our money is wasted by consultants and studies and more studies and every time a new government is elected we get more studies because the last or previous studies didn't include all the facts and figures.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.593 seconds.