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Offline xxup  
#1 Posted : 24 March 2013 06:37:38(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
As many of you are aware, I use WindigiPet to control the layout. In version 2009 they introduced a major change from throttle position to KM/Hr running as part of a strategy to deliver more realistic computer controlled running. To deliver this, all locos had to be calibrated to get a link between the throttle position and the scale km/hr speed. I managed to achieve the calibration using the layout and fixed contact points at 1 speed step, half speed maximum step and maximum speed step. On my small layout this means that I need to run the locos around two 5200 curves.. Needless to say, some locos did not like this and chose to leap off the corner at full speed. At three calibration points, in each direction, I eventually managed to get the fleet calibrated and everything was running well on the layout..

Then they introduced WDP version 2012.1, which now needs 15 measurement points to guarantee accurate stopping on the layout. Why? Because the relationship between speed step and km/hr is not linear or a smooth curve.. In fact, now that I have tested many of my locos, it is really surprising what happens as you increase the speed on a loco.. The following picture shows an example from a near new locomotive.
xxup attached the following image(s):
Zeller6.jpg
Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#2 Posted : 24 March 2013 06:39:00(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
The problem to solve is that I can't throw the locos around the layout at medium to maximum speed 14 more times (one for each direction) without significantly increasing the risk of damage.

I needed a rolling road with a speed measurement device..

I already have a rolling road for my locos in the form of a Marklin 78100 and the 78111 Speed measuring device. Both are excellent products, but they can't interface with anything, and certainly not WindigiPet.

Along comes the KPF Zeller Rollenstand..

If you don't have a lot of money and all you want to do is see you models run, then this is a good product. It is nowhere near Marklin in terms of quality, but it does the basic job adequately. I selected the Maxi version, which comes with ten sets of rollers, because I have some railcars that will not fit on the normal HO model.

The only real complaint at this level is the method used to attach the power leads to the rods. (see the second pictures). It relies on the tension of the plastic clip to hold the wire to the side of the rod.
xxup attached the following image(s):
Zeller1.JPG
Zeller3.JPG
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Offline xxup  
#3 Posted : 24 March 2013 06:52:15(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
The next step is to attach the speed sensing device, named SpeedCat.. Blushing

In concept, this is a great little device as it uses a special set of rollers to translate wheel turns into an electrical signal that is sent via USB to your computer. WindigiPet knows about SpeedCat, so you can interface directly with the device from within WDP.. A CD-ROM is supplied with drives and a Speedometer, but you need to download (Windows ONLY) the English version from here - http://www.kpf-zeller.de/kpf/rollenstand/include/downs/Speed_Cat_EN_4.0.exe

However concepts do not translate into a well made product. When I placed the first loco on the rollers, I noticed that the roller was stopping intermittently during the test run. A look at the roller assembly shows two problems. The first problem is that the rollers are tapered - probably to accommodate a variety of HO loco motive wheels. However, this means that the roller is not in contact with the rubber traction tyre on the loco.. In fact it runs on the edge of the wheel..

The second problem, as you can see in the photo below, is that the rollers are not in line.. So the loco wheel will turn the left hand roller, but the right hand one just moves away from the wheel. I fix this problem, I had to find some washers with a 2mm hole.. I started with brass washers, but found that it worked better with the nylon washers.
xxup attached the following image(s):
Zeller2.JPG
Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#4 Posted : 24 March 2013 07:02:26(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
While this improved the situation, it did not fix the problem completely. The next problem was that the loco was climbing the roller and losing contact with the speed sensing roller. Cursing If I held the loco in place, the readings worked fine, but it takes 10 minutes per loco to run through all 30 speed steps - and there are better things I can do with that 10 minutes of my life multiplied by the number of digital locos to test..

So I then purchased the Roto-fix product to better attach the loco to the rolling road.. This product is actually designed to enabled you to place a loco on the rolling road and rotate the whole rolling road to see what is happening while the loco is running.. (See the first picture)

Anyway, I placed loco on the rolling road and applied tension to the vertical rods (they have foam pads, which do not damage the loco's finish). This approach solved the low speed problem, but caused so much load on the loco it would not go pass half it's normal running speed.. It was very very difficult to get the balance between keeping the loco on the roller and not adding too much friction to the loco..

In the end, I solved the problem by wedging the vertical poles in the front and rear of the loco to stop it moving forward or backward away from the speed sensing roller.
xxup attached the following image(s):
Zeller4.jpg
Zeller5.jpg
Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#5 Posted : 24 March 2013 07:09:24(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
Summary

If you want a cheap rolling road that can hold a Big Boy, then this is a pretty good product at a great price (10 Euro shipping to Australia), but you need to:
1. Buy some clamps to attach the power wires to the rods; and
2. Clamp the whole stand to your bench as it does not come with any rubber feet to keep it from moving across the table during testing.

If you need to measure speed, then it is a problem.. If I knew then, what I know now I would have built a six metre straight section of track in my garage to use as the speed calibration track.. SpeedCat is great in concept, but poorly implemented - it needs better rollers and a better mechanism to ensure that the loco does not try to run away on the stand..

Manufacturer's website: http://www.kpf-zeller.de/kpf/rollenstand/index.php
Adrian
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Offline vilithejou  
#6 Posted : 15 April 2013 14:34:35(UTC)
vilithejou


Joined: 17/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 840
Location: Vic, Barcelona
I'm so sorry but you doesn't have a ZPF Zeller

You have a Marion Zeller:

Marion Zeller

It's easy to know what is it, yours the rollers are red, and the original Marion Zeller are black

In my experience Marion Zeller is better than ZPF Zeller, it's much quality Marion Zeller


Joan Vilarrúbia
vilithejou@yahoo.es
Fan of Märklín, Kroko lover
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Offline Fredrik  
#7 Posted : 15 April 2013 18:19:40(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 642
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
The problem to solve is that I can't throw the locos around the layout at medium to maximum speed 14 more times (one for each direction) without significantly increasing the risk of damage.

I needed a rolling road with a speed measurement device..

I already have a rolling road for my locos in the form of a Marklin 78100 and the 78111 Speed measuring device. Both are excellent products, but they can't interface with anything, and certainly not WindigiPet.

Along comes the KPF Zeller Rollenstand..

If you don't have a lot of money and all you want to do is see you models run, then this is a good product. It is nowhere near Marklin in terms of quality, but it does the basic job adequately. I selected the Maxi version, which comes with ten sets of rollers, because I have some railcars that will not fit on the normal HO model.

The only real complaint at this level is the method used to attach the power leads to the rods. (see the second pictures). It relies on the tension of the plastic clip to hold the wire to the side of the rod.


I also did some tests with the KPF-Zeller thing (and SpeedCat) but got not godd enough results - so I had to cancel this item. Now - I'm using the TachoMesser USB in combination with the Märklin rolling road - which give much better results! It also works in combination with the 78111 Speed Measure device, although there, since a few weeks, are a far better measuring-device (for the Märklin rolling road) available.

Integration in WDP is an issue though, AFAIK not (yet?) supported.

However I've measured mfx-locos within 5-6 minutes on all their speed-steps using the non-Märklin add-on.

Measuring Tool (SW) is still under development - but for now functional in automatic measuring mode.

The TachoMesser USB is available at € 49,-. (Link: TachoMesse USB - CAN-Digital-Bahn, sorry - German page)
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren
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Offline Rhapsody  
#8 Posted : 15 April 2013 20:35:15(UTC)
Rhapsody


Joined: 22/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 19
Location: Lykstad, SH
AFAIK the TachoMesser is supported by WDP 2012 with update 2.0

By the way the USB-version costs € 59,- (It is the CAN-version that costs only € 49,- Wink )
kind regards,
Rhapsody
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Offline xxup  
#9 Posted : 15 April 2013 22:39:19(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: vilithejou Go to Quoted Post
I'm so sorry but you doesn't have a ZPF Zeller

You have a Marion Zeller:

Marion Zeller

It's easy to know what is it, yours the rollers are red, and the original Marion Zeller are black

In my experience Marion Zeller is better than ZPF Zeller, it's much quality Marion Zeller




I bought mine direct from ZPF Zeller.. Confused Is it possible that ZPF and Marion are resellers of the same product?
Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#10 Posted : 15 April 2013 23:10:02(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: Fredrik Go to Quoted Post
I also did some tests with the KPF-Zeller thing (and SpeedCat) but got not godd enough results - so I had to cancel this item. Now - I'm using the TachoMesser USB in combination with the Märklin rolling road - which give much better results! It also works in combination with the 78111 Speed Measure device, although there, since a few weeks, are a far better measuring-device (for the Märklin rolling road) available.

Integration in WDP is an issue though, AFAIK not (yet?) supported.

However I've measured mfx-locos within 5-6 minutes on all their speed-steps using the non-Märklin add-on.

Measuring Tool (SW) is still under development - but for now functional in automatic measuring mode.

The TachoMesser USB is available at € 49,-. (Link: TachoMesse USB - CAN-Digital-Bahn, sorry - German page)


Hello Fredrik,
This looks really good.. I tried the links pages. but none of the three listed dealers have the TachoMesser USB on their pages. Where did you buy yours?
Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#11 Posted : 15 April 2013 23:14:02(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: Rhapsody Go to Quoted Post
AFAIK the TachoMesser is supported by WDP 2012 with update 2.0

By the way the USB-version costs € 59,- (It is the CAN-version that costs only € 49,- Wink )


Thanks for this information. Unfortunately, the English edition of WDP is currently 2012.1. As it was only released in September last year, I can't see them getting the new version (likely to be 2012.3) out before September this year.. In any case, I have posted the question on their forum, because sometimes these things can be enabled by the addition of a file..
Adrian
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Offline Fredrik  
#12 Posted : 15 April 2013 23:55:59(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 642
Originally Posted by: Rhapsody Go to Quoted Post
AFAIK the TachoMesser is supported by WDP 2012 with update 2.0

By the way the USB-version costs € 59,- (It is the CAN-version that costs only € 49,- Wink )


You're right - I read on the CAN-version... Blushing And as mentioned also supported by WDP with the correct update.

Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fredrik Go to Quoted Post
I also did some tests with the KPF-Zeller thing (and SpeedCat) but got not godd enough results - so I had to cancel this item. Now - I'm using the TachoMesser USB in combination with the Märklin rolling road - which give much better results! It also works in combination with the 78111 Speed Measure device, although there, since a few weeks, are a far better measuring-device (for the Märklin rolling road) available.

Integration in WDP is an issue though, AFAIK not (yet?) supported.

However I've measured mfx-locos within 5-6 minutes on all their speed-steps using the non-Märklin add-on.

Measuring Tool (SW) is still under development - but for now functional in automatic measuring mode.

The TachoMesser USB is available at € 49,-. (Link: TachoMesse USB - CAN-Digital-Bahn, sorry - German page)


Hello Fredrik,
This looks really good.. I tried the links pages. but none of the three listed dealers have the TachoMesser USB on their pages. Where did you buy yours?


No need to search for a specific dealer - use the contact page to contact the developer directly, I've bought all my items directly from him. Or you can PM/email to Br96 here at the forum... Wink
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren
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