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Poll Question : Do you plan to purchase the 2013 Insider Br58?
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Offline steventrain  
#1 Posted : 04 November 2012 20:42:03(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 27,306
Location: Northern Ireland
Marklin will be announced a Insider 2013 in three weeks time.

What is your tip for Insider 2013?

For me will be a BR06 or New tooling BR03 streamlined.

Edited by moderator 23 November 2012 21:07:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Largest Marklinist Layout with Centrail station 2/Mobile station 2/60174 boosters/C-Tracks/K-Tracks/M-tracks/Favorites class BR01, BR23, BR50, E103, E120/Insider Club membership since 2004.
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 04 November 2012 22:39:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 9,190
Hi!

Some information from previous years: Märklin made a poll amongst the insider club members.
The locos on the list can be found here:
http://www.marklin-users...or-Marklin-Insiders.aspx

And the Top 6 results can be found here:
http://m-users.net/forum...-Personal-Favourite.aspx

After the 2012 era IV electric BR 403/404, I think we're in for a steamer, era II or era III.
So maybe BR 06. Or something completely different.
I'd love the V 320 or the E 95 (era III).

I think it'll be a loco from the poll. I don't know if the Top 6 models come first.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 04 November 2012 22:57:18(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
I'd be happy with either the Br58 or the Br06 (even though I have the Brawa Br06).
Offline Armando  
#4 Posted : 04 November 2012 23:52:40(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,425
Location: Houston, Texas
BR 06 or V 320 for me!
Best regards,
Armando García

Offline mrmarklin  
#5 Posted : 05 November 2012 01:59:41(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 517
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Marklin will be announced a Insider 2013 in three weeks time.

What is your tip for Insider 2013?

For me will be a BR06 or New tooling BR03 streamlined.


Just got back from Germany a week ago. All my sources tell me it will be Era III. That's all anyone would say.Angry
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 05 November 2012 02:06:19(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,033
Location: Montreal, QC
Here are my five cents:

My first choice would be BLS Re 4/4 or Ae 4/4 http://www.railfaneurope...4/166-180/174-bls-mt.jpg
Second choice would be SBB Ae 4/7 http://www.railfaneurope.../historic/Ae4_7/ae47.jpg
Third choice would be DB BR 411/415 ICE T http://www.railfaneurope.../Dresden/415DH_halle.jpg
Fourth choice would be DB BR 423 trainset http://www.railfaneurope...esseldorf/100721-132.jpg
Fifth choice would be DR VT18 http://www.railfaneurope...bona_Express_10.1974.jpg

I don't know if any of them have already figured on Maerklin's list, but they are all interesting models

Regards

Mike C
Online RayF  
#7 Posted : 05 November 2012 08:23:29(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,769
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I'm hoping for the Br58. Last time we voted it came out on top, as I recall.

We need more of the pre-standardisation freight locos, to balance the Br44/50/52 gluts in our collections! BigGrin

Mind you, I still need to add the Br59 (Wurtemberg K) to my roster.

Maybe one day we'll also get a proper Br42 made by Marklin. (Not an oil fired Br41....)
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline 2fingers  
#8 Posted : 05 November 2012 09:30:09(UTC)
2fingers


Joined: 25/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 191
Location: , vic
I'll have a guess at a wittfeld akkutriebwagen.


Hans
Offline foumaro  
#9 Posted : 05 November 2012 10:40:49(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,602
Location: ATHENS-GREECE
I do not have a BR 44 yet in my collection.LOL Love ThumpUp
Offline jeehring  
#10 Posted : 05 November 2012 13:31:44(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,748
Location: ,
...are there anyone here who knows but does not say..? ...Blink.....Angry ...... RollEyes RollEyes

Edited by user 05 November 2012 13:46:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#11 Posted : 05 November 2012 22:44:03(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I do not have a BR 44 yet in my collection.LOL Love ThumpUp


That's heresy! How can you call yourself a Marklinist and not own a Br44?? Confused

I have 6 Br44's! Blushing Blushing
Offline kimballthurlow  
#12 Posted : 06 November 2012 01:04:48(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,183
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,

Reading a review of the streamlined BR06, of which there were only 2 (last one scrapped in 1951), I can say that I am not interested in such a large, rare loco. Of course that means the exact opposite for many Marklinists, who will assuredly like it. Same goes for the E95, which was a bit of an oddity, six engines.

Now Brawa make both these locos in HO, so you would wonder why Marklin would be bothered. And are the polls reflected in the final purchases? "My friend has a Brawa E95, so I want one if it's a Marklin" sort of attitude. Mind you, I will probably never buy a Brawa, even though I am attractred to their BR19, purely for its historical place in technology.

However, the BR58 might be a nice addition to the steam roster, as it has many uses on a railway. A bit like the Class 56 released this year. Ubiquitous, and representative of a real railway.

And no, David, I don't own a BR44. Just can't get excited by that bulk. My BR95 has a similar look and feel, and I think I will sell it.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 06 November 2012 01:44:03(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
I'm kidding of course and firmly have my tongue imbedded in my cheek when I make that sort of comment. Not everyone likes big heavy locos, but I must admit that there's something I like about the Br44's. Now all I need is a G800/GN800/3027/3047 to complete things. Here's hoping for a 30470 in this coming year.
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Offline foumaro  
#14 Posted : 06 November 2012 04:23:20(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,602
Location: ATHENS-GREECE
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I do not have a BR 44 yet in my collection.LOL Love ThumpUp


That's heresy! How can you call yourself a Marklinist and not own a Br44?? Confused

I have 6 Br44's! Blushing Blushing


I am waiting for the insider's edition.LOL Love
Anyway i forgot my analog 3047,so i do not have a digital BR 44 yet.LOL
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#15 Posted : 06 November 2012 05:06:03(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
LOL BigGrin

Ah, a true Marklinist indeed.....he forgot what he owns! Laugh
Offline Armando  
#16 Posted : 06 November 2012 05:41:09(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,425
Location: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Here are my five cents:

Fifth choice would be DR VT18 http://www.railfaneurope...bona_Express_10.1974.jpg

I don't know if any of them have already figured on Maerklin's list, but they are all interesting models

Regards

Mike C


I vote for your fifth choice, the DR VT18. It is high time Marklin made this model, but only in metal and 1:87, please!

Cheers!
Best regards,
Armando García

Offline foumaro  
#17 Posted : 06 November 2012 16:52:03(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,602
Location: ATHENS-GREECE
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
LOL BigGrin

Ah, a true Marklinist indeed.....he forgot what he owns! Laugh


I am in love with them and i lost my mind.Love LOL
Online RayF  
#18 Posted : 06 November 2012 17:56:38(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,769
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Have I missed something? Did Marklin release a model of a class 56 this year? Oh, it's the Insider model, I forgot about that one...
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#19 Posted : 06 November 2012 19:38:45(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
Not sure if it's this thread, but everyone seems rather forgetful! BigGrinLOL

So here's a reminder.....Marklin 37563 Br56 2012 Insider Model

UserPostedImage
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Online RayF  
#20 Posted : 07 November 2012 11:26:08(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,769
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks for the photo, David. ThumpUp

It's funny how I forgot all about this great looking loco. It should be coming out soon, I guess?

It seems to me that less members on the forum are into the new models at the moment. If you check new posts and topics in recent months there seems to be a greater interest in collectors pieces from the '40s and '50s than in current models. I think those who have bought old models are getting more responses than those who are showing off new ones.

I think there's bound to be ebbs and flows in interest in different aspects of the hobby. A couple of years ago every other post was about digital protocols and comparisons of different controllers, which was a major yawn for me!

I personally would like to hear more comments from those who have bought the new models from 2012, more reviews, and photos of these locos on their layouts.

...and of course, within this thread I want to see more suggestions of locos that Marklin could produce in 2013!
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#21 Posted : 08 November 2012 08:45:42(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,183
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the photo, David. ThumpUp

It's funny how I forgot all about this great looking loco. It should be coming out soon, I guess?

It seems to me that less members on the forum are into the new models at the moment. If you check new posts and topics in recent months there seems to be a greater interest in collectors pieces from the '40s and '50s than in current models. ........


Hi Ray,

That Class 56, of which I have one on order, reminds me of the typical Queensland freight engine. it ran on a 3'6" track, was a 4-8-0, but the look of the small boiler, high chimney and domes, and commodius cab were similar. So I like it.

I buy about 2 new engines a year, and usually one will be the Insider model. I love the new digital age, but especially from Marklin, as they are so well engineered, and the presentation (paint, lettering, detail) is faultless. I reserve my passion for the older stuff, to the English 1950s Hornby Dublo 3 rail.

But the opinions from members here, on what Marklin OUGHT to produce, are interesting.

regards
Kimball


HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline Marius in Africa  
#22 Posted : 10 November 2012 11:02:09(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 348
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
How about a change of continents for the insider model, an ALCO PA1 A-B-A unit in New York Central colours.
Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
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Offline DamonKelly  
#23 Posted : 10 November 2012 15:08:59(UTC)
DamonKelly

Australia   
Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,263
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Originally Posted by: Marius in Africa Go to Quoted Post
How about a change of continents for the insider model, an ALCO PA1 A-B-A unit in New York Central colours.


Go further...a Shinkansen...Blink
--
Cheers,
Damon
Offline Marius in Africa  
#24 Posted : 10 November 2012 16:07:39(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 348
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
Originally Posted by: DamonKelly Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Marius in Africa Go to Quoted Post
How about a change of continents for the insider model, an ALCO PA1 A-B-A unit in New York Central colours.


Go further...a Shinkansen...Blink


I think Marklin is far too conservative for a "Shinkansen", maybe Brawa will produce one.BigGrin
Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
Offline foumaro  
#25 Posted : 10 November 2012 17:27:57(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,602
Location: ATHENS-GREECE
Originally Posted by: Marius in Africa Go to Quoted Post
How about a change of continents for the insider model, an ALCO PA1 A-B-A unit in New York Central colours.


I am fully agree with you.The best idea.LOL Drool Love ThumpUp Wub
Offline steventrain  
#26 Posted : 20 November 2012 21:14:52(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 27,306
Location: Northern Ireland
I think the V320 is favorites if no steam for 2013.

Edited by user 20 November 2012 21:22:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Largest Marklinist Layout with Centrail station 2/Mobile station 2/60174 boosters/C-Tracks/K-Tracks/M-tracks/Favorites class BR01, BR23, BR50, E103, E120/Insider Club membership since 2004.
Offline nilkram58  
#27 Posted : 20 November 2012 22:38:20(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 145
Location: Athens, Greece
I personally put my bet on the V 320 or the Br58 !!!
Akis
Offline 2fingers  
#28 Posted : 22 November 2012 00:16:59(UTC)
2fingers


Joined: 25/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 191
Location: , vic
The new insider ho loc is a br58. From 3rail forum.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#29 Posted : 22 November 2012 00:36:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: 2fingers Go to Quoted Post
The new insider ho loc is a br58. From 3rail forum.


Do you have a link to the post on the 3rail forum?
Offline shannon  
#30 Posted : 22 November 2012 01:33:18(UTC)
shannon


Joined: 27/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 269
Location: Taipei,
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 2fingers Go to Quoted Post
The new insider ho loc is a br58. From 3rail forum.


Do you have a link to the post on the 3rail forum?


http://forum.3rail.nl/index.php

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#31 Posted : 22 November 2012 02:33:58(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: shannon Go to Quoted Post
http://forum.3rail.nl/index.php


Yes, I already know where the 3 Rail Forum is, what I meant was a link to the actual thread that advises the Br58 is confirmed as the 2013 Insider model.
Offline 2fingers  
#32 Posted : 22 November 2012 02:51:46(UTC)
2fingers


Joined: 25/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 191
Location: , vic
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Offline vilithejou  
#33 Posted : 22 November 2012 06:51:39(UTC)
vilithejou

Spain   
Joined: 17/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 448
Location: Vic, Barcelona
Originally Posted by: 2fingers Go to Quoted Post
The new insider ho loc is a br58. From 3rail forum.


Many Thanks and so interesting....
Joan Vilarrúbia
vilithejou@yahoo.es
Fan of Märklín, Kroko lover
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#34 Posted : 22 November 2012 07:24:43(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
And to save us all having to look elsewhere........

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
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Offline foumaro  
#35 Posted : 22 November 2012 07:50:12(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,602
Location: ATHENS-GREECE
First time i see the "DCC" to the symbols we usually reading in the marklin's katalogs.
Offline pab  
#36 Posted : 22 November 2012 08:45:41(UTC)
pab

Netherlands   
Joined: 03/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,411
The HO insider model 2013 will be the BR 58, early era III

See Märklin tv folge 56



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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#37 Posted : 22 November 2012 09:15:44(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: pab Go to Quoted Post
The HO insider model 2013 will be the BR 58, early era III


There's already a 2013 Insider loco topic, so have merged Piet's thread with that one.
Offline Sander van Wijk  
#38 Posted : 22 November 2012 11:13:41(UTC)
Sander van Wijk

Netherlands   
Joined: 20/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,190
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands; Göteborg, Sverige,
Good to see this message has spread already within the community! Herewith a link to Märklin TV: http://www.maerklin.de/d...chungen/maerklin-tv.html

Regards,
Sander

---
Era I(b): K.Bay.Sts.B. and K.W.St.E.
Offline pab  
#39 Posted : 22 November 2012 13:53:35(UTC)
pab

Netherlands   
Joined: 03/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,411
Märklin announced the insider model for 2013.
It's the BR 58. A set with sevel coal cars will be available too.

See the märklin website and Märklin TV episode 56 (in german only for now)

See also insidernews from Cologne

Edited by user 22 November 2012 14:02:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline pab  
#40 Posted : 22 November 2012 14:56:59(UTC)
pab

Netherlands   
Joined: 03/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,411
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: pab Go to Quoted Post
The HO insider model 2013 will be the BR 58, early era III


There's already a 2013 Insider loco topic, so have merged Piet's thread with that one.


I thought my thread was lost, so I made a new one. Maybe it's better to lock the old one with a link to the new place.
But I think M topic is a better place than the general topic.
Offline Marius in Africa  
#41 Posted : 22 November 2012 17:04:28(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 348
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
Originally Posted by: pab Go to Quoted Post
Märklin announced the insider model for 2013.
It's the BR 58. A set with sevel coal cars will be available too.

See the märklin website and Märklin TV episode 56 (in german only for now)

See also insidernews from Cologne


For those who can read Dutch:

http://forum.3rail.nl/index.php?topic=39835.0

regards
Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
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Offline jeehring  
#42 Posted : 22 November 2012 18:17:14(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,748
Location: ,
should be OK for me...
I'll go for this model, at least two good points, I like ERA IIIa, I like the telex coupling.....

Edited by user 22 November 2012 18:22:51(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline sudhir36  
#43 Posted : 22 November 2012 18:52:59(UTC)
sudhir36


Joined: 06/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Richmond, VA
And also comes equipped with 7226 smoke generator unitBigGrin LOL Flapper
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#44 Posted : 22 November 2012 19:25:28(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,891
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: pab Go to Quoted Post
But I think M topic is a better place than the general topic.


I think you're right, this doesn't belong in 'General MRR'. Have moved thread to 'News from Marklin'.
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pab
Offline Sergi  
#45 Posted : 22 November 2012 19:43:08(UTC)
Sergi


Joined: 20/12/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Barcelone, Spain
This is a authentic Insider model for me !. I prefer always a steam locomotive...Love
Here a comparation with the BR 58 311..

A comparation BR 58's


Really nice!. Now... save money !!!!

Regards
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Offline H0  
#46 Posted : 22 November 2012 20:39:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 9,190
Originally Posted by: sudhir36 Go to Quoted Post
And also comes equipped with 7226 smoke generator unit
In Märklin TV they say the smoke generator is included in the box.
The leaflets shown in this thread say the same.

The 7226 can be installed without opening the loco, so it makes no big difference.

Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline steventrain  
#47 Posted : 22 November 2012 21:00:46(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 27,306
Location: Northern Ireland
Insider club wagon.

steventrain attached the following image(s):
f17f92ahfkrs.jpg
Largest Marklinist Layout with Centrail station 2/Mobile station 2/60174 boosters/C-Tracks/K-Tracks/M-tracks/Favorites class BR01, BR23, BR50, E103, E120/Insider Club membership since 2004.
Offline steventrain  
#48 Posted : 22 November 2012 21:44:08(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 27,306
Location: Northern Ireland
Insider 46026 7 pack of coal wagon with loads black weathered for BR58 model.
Largest Marklinist Layout with Centrail station 2/Mobile station 2/60174 boosters/C-Tracks/K-Tracks/M-tracks/Favorites class BR01, BR23, BR50, E103, E120/Insider Club membership since 2004.
Offline Sander van Wijk  
#49 Posted : 22 November 2012 21:54:00(UTC)
Sander van Wijk

Netherlands   
Joined: 20/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,190
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands; Göteborg, Sverige,
Hi all,

Just wondering; what will the new Profi club car look like? Usually those are of much more interest to me, as these are mainly Bavarian era I models... :)

Cheers,
Sander

---
Era I(b): K.Bay.Sts.B. and K.W.St.E.
Offline applor  
#50 Posted : 23 November 2012 00:57:37(UTC)
applor


Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 464
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I hadn't planned on buying any trains for a while but now Marklin go and release an eraIIIa insider model!
Guess I'll be making an exception then:)
Eric Fuhrmann - modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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