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Offline Mark5  
#1 Posted : 19 October 2012 19:38:46(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Hello again Marklin brains, Model railroad historians and railway buffs,

I have bought a number of Piko cars with the DR livery with the idea of having them fit on my era 3 and 4 layout.
Yet, I do not have any DR locos yet and would also like to know more general East German history and rail history from 1945 to 1989....mostly though in 1955 to 1975. Any links you know to useful resources?

So far I have seen only one Marklin DR locomotive. Are there more?

Do you know of any blogs with layouts featuring East German scenarios and trains?

Thanking the collective brain ahead of time,
Mark

ps. I saw this car online. The lettering looks very big. Is this prototypical?
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/BUBO/886_4.JPG
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

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Offline kbvrod  
#2 Posted : 19 October 2012 19:54:46(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Mark,all,
A very simple overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De...eichsbahn_(East_Germany)

The former DR has become much more popular modeling-wise in recent years.
Gützold(now kaput) Piko,Roco and FL produce DR loks(some in 3-rail)

Dr D
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Offline BrandonVA  
#3 Posted : 19 October 2012 20:19:00(UTC)
BrandonVA

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Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,981
Location: VA
Mark,

Last year Marklin made an East German commuter train set with a class 74.10 loco (from the hobby range), set number is 26586. This is an era III set according to Marklin. I'm sure there are more, this is the first that comes to mind. Marklin surely at this point does not have too many DR models (stock or locos), especially since they came out of the West.

Since the name DR is somewhat recycled from pre-war, and since the DR of GDR (East Germany) used so much steam traction (longer than DB), you probably could cheat a bit and put some era II DR/DRG/DRB locos on there, so long as you choose wisely and found a class that was continued after the war. Sure, it wouldn't be 100% correct, but it would be pretty close. Obviously anything with the war eagle would be out of place...

-Brandon
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Offline Western Pacific  
#4 Posted : 20 October 2012 09:52:47(UTC)
Western Pacific

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You have been a member since:: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 767
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Mark and Brandon,

One reason for why there are not so many DR models is the fact that the whole issue of GDR was very politically sensitive in the Federal Republic of Germany before re-unification and there were people who wouldn't speak of GDR (or DDR), but rather speak of the Sowjet Besatzungszone.

Given that the West German market was one of the, if not the largest model railway market in Europe, suppliers like Märklin preferred to take a politically correct position and not produce DR models.

This has changed after re-unification. Now new and old states of the Federal Republic of Germany go towards a common future, but their history is different. This opens up for a new situation where it suddenly has become politically correct to include DR. As an example the Deutsche Bahn-Museum in Nürnberg used to deal only with DB for the period after 1945. This has changed, now also DR is dealt with. Another example is Märklin model 3335 of DR's BR 254 which was the computer number DR gave to E94, which was in the Märklin product program 1993 - 98.

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Offline NS1200  
#5 Posted : 20 October 2012 10:37:34(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Mark,

Maerklin produced various DR locomotives over the years,even a DR version of the electric E18,with a nice set of coaches,the socalled Leipzig to Berlin express,see Maerklin No. 26509.
Also the well known Donnerbueschen (2-axle coaches for regional traffic) were issued in DR versions.
I have a pile of old Maerklin catalogues,i would be happy to try and find some for you.

What sort of Piko cars have you bought?
2-axle or 4-axle coaches?
This in a way determines the type of loco to put at front.
Steam,diesel,or electric?

Roco indeed have issued some DR loco's over the years,only recently i saw a very nicely detailed DR version of the Br01 steamloco in socalled Reko design,with DR style spoked wheels and semi streamlining of the domes on top of the boiler.
Because,where the DB quickly changed to diesel and electric after WW2,the DDR (East Germany) kept on using steampower for a long time,and as such it was apparently worthwhile to modify large numbers of old steamloco's.

Interesting stuff,and worth the effort!

Here a DR style Br01 in action,having the traditional style wheels,funny elephant ears,and streamlined domes op top.
Later,some of these loco's were fitted with socalled Bokspok wheels,having the rounded spokes.
Nice close ups as from 3:00.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=...9h3c&feature=related

Paul.

Edited by moderator 30 October 2012 20:11:23(UTC)  | Reason: Restored by Webmaster

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline NS1200  
#6 Posted : 20 October 2012 11:54:00(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Mark,

Have found a couple by means of Google and Ebay.de.

See:
Maerklin 3449 Br204 in version DR.
Maerklin 36321 Ludmilla diesel in version DR.
Maerklin 4376 coach in version DR.

In respect of coaches,remember they should have the white letters DR on the sides,contrary the yellow eagle emblems for the DRG versions.
I am sure there are many more to be found,if you know where to look.
Tomorrow is Sunday,i might as well spend a lost hour on it!

Paul.

Edited by moderator 30 October 2012 19:14:44(UTC)  | Reason: Restored by Webmaster

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 20 October 2012 12:12:42(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,391
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Mark,

Here are some Marklin DR locos that I have seen in catalogues:

Br03 3397
Br74 26586
Br78 33072/37072
Br92 34133
Br204 3449, 2872 (E04 electric)
E18 26509
Br243 3443, 3445, 3743, 83443, 34411
Br254 3335 (E94 electric)
Br132 36421 (Ludmilla)

Edited by user 21 October 2012 16:38:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ray (aka "the fool")

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline kbvrod  
#8 Posted : 20 October 2012 12:39:39(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
Please be aware that there are differences between DRG and DDR models!
The Maerklin 39192 E19 Electric in version DR.Is NOT DDR.


Dr D
Offline pa-pauls  
#9 Posted : 20 October 2012 13:22:59(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,799
Location: Norway
Hello,

Sometime's Märklin use DR and sometime's they use DR (DDR) What is the difference ? Time period (epoche) ?

These are the model's I found for DR in epoche III :

26509 DR E 18 Berlin-Leipzig
26586 DR Br. 74
34133 DR Br. 92
37072 DR Br. 78
42354 DR Wagen set "Rügen"
43208 DR Wagen set "Berlin-Leipzig"
47891 DR Wagen set "Güterwagen DR um 1950"
47909 DR Wagen set "Industrieverkehr der DR"
4879 DR (DDR) Wagen Gh Güterwagen
4883 DR (DDR) Wagen Gr Güterwagen
4893 DR (DDR) Wagen Bierwagen
4896 DR (DDR) Wagen Om 10 Güterwagen

Also a set with a mix of DB and DR wagen:
48812 Wagen set "Spangenberg-Werke" (Insider special)

EDIT:
Also found this:
46753 DR Wagen set "Storck Karamellen" DR Brit.-US-Zone

Edited by user 20 October 2012 15:58:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Pål Paulsen
Märklin Digital, DB and SBB Era III
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Offline kbvrod  
#10 Posted : 20 October 2012 13:28:54(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Pål,all,

>Sometime's Märklin use DR and sometime's they use DR (DDR) What is the difference ? Time period (epoche) ?<

Epoch,...

Epoch 2 DRG (DR)Germany
Epoch 3 DDR (DR)East Germany

Dr D
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Offline Western Pacific  
#11 Posted : 20 October 2012 13:53:14(UTC)
Western Pacific

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You have been a member since:: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 767
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
Please be aware that there are differences between DRG and DDR models!
The Maerklin 39192 E19 Electric in version DR.Is NOT DDR.


Dr D


This is a very valid point.

Another way of looking at it is to use the 'era'. The eras relevant for DRG and DR are defined roughly as follows:

Era II is from 1920 to 1949, in other words an era II model is DRG (of the Weimar Republic and/or of the Third Reich).

Era III is from 1949 to 1970, in other words an era III model is DR (of the GDR)

Era IV is from 1970 to 1990, in other words an era IV model is DR (of the GDR)

Era V is from 1990 to 2006. German re-unification took place on October 3rd 1990, but it wasn't until January 1st 1994 that Deutsche Bundesbahn and Deutsche Reichsbahn were merged into Deutsche Bahn AG, in other words an era V model is DR, but not GDR, it is of the Federal Republic of Germany.

____
DRG = Deutsche Rechsbahn Gesellschaft
DR = Deutsche Reichsbahn
DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik
GDR = German Democratic Republic (=DDR in English)
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Offline pa-pauls  
#12 Posted : 20 October 2012 16:01:42(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,799
Location: Norway
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pål,all,

>Sometime's Märklin use DR and sometime's they use DR (DDR) What is the difference ? Time period (epoche) ?<

Epoch,...

Epoch 2 DRG (DR)Germany
Epoch 3 DDR (DR)East Germany

Dr D


Thank's for reply but Märklin use DR for epoche III as for example in the new 26586.
So will this say that DR (DDR) like 4879 is epoche II ?

Pål Paulsen
Märklin Digital, DB and SBB Era III
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Offline kbvrod  
#13 Posted : 20 October 2012 20:07:53(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Pål,all,

>Thank's for reply but Märklin use DR for epoche III as for example in the new 26586.
So will this say that DR (DDR) like 4879 is epoche II ?<

26586,yes.
4879,is Epoch 3(both versions I found)
In Epoch 2 Deutsche Reichsbahn appeared on the side(written out)
In Epoch 3(East) just the letters DR

Dr D


Offline NS1200  
#14 Posted : 20 October 2012 22:12:13(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by: kbvrod
Hi all,
Please be aware that there are differences between DRG and DDR models!
The Maerklin 39192 E19 Electric in version DR.Is NOT DDR.


Dr D



Correct!
Any loco with the eagle emblem on the sides and/or the noses is DRG,not DR from East Germany (DDR).

Paul.

Edited by moderator 30 October 2012 19:16:37(UTC)  | Reason: Restored by Webmaster

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
Offline NS1200  
#15 Posted : 20 October 2012 22:24:05(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Originally Posted by: pa-pauls Go to Quoted Post
Hello,

Sometime's Märklin use DR and sometime's they use DR (DDR) What is the difference ? Time period (epoche) ?

These are the model's I found for DR in epoche III :

26509 DR E 18 Berlin-Leipzig
26586 DR Br. 74
34133 DR Br. 92
37072 DR Br. 78
42354 DR Wagen set "Rügen"
43208 DR Wagen set "Berlin-Leipzig"
47891 DR Wagen set "Güterwagen DR um 1950"
47909 DR Wagen set "Industrieverkehr der DR"
4879 DR (DDR) Wagen Gh Güterwagen
4883 DR (DDR) Wagen Gr Güterwagen
4893 DR (DDR) Wagen Bierwagen
4896 DR (DDR) Wagen Om 10 Güterwagen

Also a set with a mix of DB and DR wagen:
48812 Wagen set "Spangenberg-Werke" (Insider special)

EDIT:
Also found this:
46753 DR Wagen set "Storck Karamellen" DR Brit.-US-Zone


I would not call 46753 a DDR (East Germany) set.
This is about railwaycars confiscated by the allied troops in the western part of Germany as from May 1945.
Many of these freightcars were still wearing the DRG markings until the DB markings got in.
When the DDR was formed,the railways in that part of the country,occupied by the Russians,were called Deutsche Reichsbahn (DR without the G).

Paul.

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Mark5  
#16 Posted : 21 October 2012 06:51:47(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Wow ... Lots of great info. I will looking up nearly every suggestion in the coming week and get back to you.

I am trying to work out the historical background for a short film idea on Era III/IV rail history, using Model railways to tell the story.

Does anyone have a good indicator of the social life of the rail workers in East Germany too?
Where would one find such information? (My lack of real German skills is a drawback.)

Thanks again!!!
- Mark

Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Z-nerd  
#17 Posted : 21 October 2012 10:16:00(UTC)
Z-nerd

Sweden   
Joined: 10/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: Linköping
When I visited the GDR in 1987 it was heaven for a 17 year old modeltrain enthusiast, because it was dirtcheap (especially after some "underground currency exchange" at restaurants)

PIKO and Berliner TT were the only brands provided. Buildings were made by VERO now called Auhagen.

Locos were quite solid and qualitative, but with no functioning lights. I bought a bunch of modelkits and trees, but no locos or waggons.


In Russia there is a TT-brand called Peresvet making russian train models, I saw a exhibitions in St Petersburg when beeing there.

Overall model railways were never a major interest behind the iron curtain, maybe more in the GDR though, but people had mainly other things to think about.
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Offline NS1200  
#18 Posted : 21 October 2012 13:31:59(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Mark,

See also electric loco Br212 in DR livery as Maerklin 3442 or 3742 (digital).
Color is red with on the sides in big white figures 212 005-3.
Shows in the M catalogue for 1996/97.

Also a rather special version of the DR Br212 as "Weisse Lady",Maerklin 34411 (Delta only).

Saw a near to new DR Br212 in digital version in a M shop in Rotterdam for less than Euro 140.-.
The Br212 3742 as mentioned above costs around Euro 110,- on Ebay.de.
Cheers,
Paul.

Edited by moderator 30 October 2012 19:17:31(UTC)  | Reason: Restored by Webmaster

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Western Pacific  
#19 Posted : 21 October 2012 13:47:31(UTC)
Western Pacific

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You have been a member since:: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 767
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Hi Mark,

Related to your Schicht coach, perhaps these pictures are of interest:

DR Doppelstockwagen

The description says "22 032 mit Personenzug von Görlitz nach Dresden um 1964" or "22 032 with a passenger train from Görlitz to Dresden around 1964". At least to me it looks like the marking on the side is "Deutsche Reichsbahn" written in full as on your model. The following picture is from Dresden in 1972 and it seems that for era IV the marking was changed to "DR".

DR Doppelstockwagen Dresden


I found this link to a DR model made by Roco and in the English(*) version there is a description of the background for these coaches. Link to Roco photo.

Roco has this series of these 1980-ies DR coaches 64800 1st class coach, 64 802 and 64803 2nd class coaches and 64804 combined 2nd class and luggage coach that can be used with DR steam, DR diesel or DR electric locomotives as well as DB diesel or electric locomotives, since these coaches were used in Interzone trains(**).

A version of these coaches were the "Städteexpresswagen" which was a concept of higher quality InterCity trains between regional capitals in the DDR and Berlin (East). Roco models are 64823 1st class coach, 64824 and 64825 2nd class coaches. Link to Roco photo.


Per

______
(*) I must admit that I find the English a bit difficult to read and i suspect that Roco has just fed a German text to translation software (or had a bad translator).

(**) Interzone trains were trains that crossed the intra-German border between DDR and Bundesrepublik Deutschland and they called at several stations in both the DDR and the Bundesrepublik. Another group of trains were the Transit trains that normally went between the Bundesrepublik and Berlin (West) without stops in the DDR.
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Offline NS1200  
#20 Posted : 21 October 2012 14:18:12(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Mark,

A clip of DDR steamtrains,note: in May 1981!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=...8fbI&feature=related

Paul.

Edited by moderator 30 October 2012 19:18:09(UTC)  | Reason: Restored by Webmaster

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Mark5  
#21 Posted : 22 October 2012 04:49:15(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Mark,

A clip of DDR steamtrains,note: in May 1981!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=...8fbI&feature=related

Paul.


Great clip Paul. Always love seeing big steam in clips. Also with stations and passengers, gives an East German feel, stark and dour.
Imagining it might have been similar in 1968, except for the clothing perhaps. Also like seeing the streets with nothing but Trabants at the end of the clip! BigGrin

I need as much material as I can. I really want to find some books/reading material in English... but might have to settle for slow translations. At least if its digital text or online, I can use the google translator.

Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mark,

Related to your Schicht coach,.....


Hi Per,

Sadly I missed the auction today busy with family.
These coaches went for a song... kicking myself!Angry

www.ebay.com/itm/330810654280
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330810655041
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Mark5  
#22 Posted : 22 October 2012 04:59:46(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
I see other posts on East German trains popping up and I am very thankful.

If you don't mind I will include the links here to help keep track of all this useful material.

http://www.marklin-users...n-in-DR--DDR--style.aspx

http://www.marklin-users...st-German-DDR-style.aspx
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline jeehring  
#23 Posted : 22 October 2012 09:28:04(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
the Marklin train set #26509 is a marvel. It was produced around the year 2001.
It is an express train "Berlin-Leipzig" with an E18 + coaches with skirts, all in DDR railway color scheme.....The cab of the E18 has interior lighting...
It's one of my favorite Marklin trainset.
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Offline Timothy  
#24 Posted : 22 October 2012 13:32:38(UTC)
Timothy


Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: France
Hello,

I may be able to offer some help since I was born in Rostock in 1978. One specialty of the Deutsche Reichsbahn (DR) is that steam engines have been used much longer than for instance in West Germany. Additionally, the shift to electric traction took longer in the GDR due to the lack of materials for the catenary. So typical (but of course depending on your time horizon) steam engines and diesel engines have been used by the DR.

to get a feeling for the DR, here is a nice video of steam power in the GDR (forget the audio, it is about something else in in German):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fIgeWUp2m4

Or here a video of the main station in my place of birth (though it is in 1990, but the feeling of the 1980s in the GDRs is stil there (changes have been very, very slow in the GDR)):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d7_AgcddOE

If you have any specific question, I try to help or find information for you. Unfortunately, a lot of info will be in German. But let's see.

Best,

Tim

EDIT: I just see that you are mainly interested in the era 1945-1975. I think it will be difficult to find layouts for that specific era. Usually, model railroaders with focus on the DR model the 1980s sometimes the 1970s. Here is a layout description with a lot of details. Though in German, but the pictures speak for themselves:
http://www.nexusboard.ne...2408&threadid=310662

Here a video advertising the work for the DR in the 1950s. The end is funny: "This is the contribution of the German (that means East German) Railway workers to fulfill the 5-year-plan which brings us peace, unity and so far unknown prosperity" :-) Given some more time, I may translate the audio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-FRj24yMeI

Edited by user 22 October 2012 13:49:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Timothy  
#25 Posted : 22 October 2012 14:02:14(UTC)
Timothy


Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: France
As for models, you may also look for Roco engines like BR 35.10, BR 50.40, BR 23.10 and BR 243.

Please note that (in the UIC numbering) the DR used 0xx numbers for steam engines, 1xx numbers for Diesel engines and 2xx numbers for electric engines (slightly different to the scheme of the DB).

What is also special for East German steam engines is that engines did undergo a refit program (called reconstruction and therefor engines are sometimes called "Reko" engines). You can identify these steam engines easily by the special construction just in front of the smoke pipe (is that the correct English term?). Additionally, the front shield is usually closed for DR steam engines.

Best,

Tim
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Online H0  
#26 Posted : 22 October 2012 19:00:10(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,838
Originally Posted by: Timothy Go to Quoted Post
Please note that (in the UIC numbering) the DR used 0xx numbers for steam engines, 1xx numbers for Diesel engines and 2xx numbers for electric engines (slightly different to the scheme of the DB).
Not quite. They used 1xx for diesel, 2xx for electric locos - and all other digits for steam locos. Thus only few steamers (18 => 02, 19 => 04, 22 => 39, 24 => 37) needed new numbers.

While diesel and electric locos had numbers according to the "abc def-g" pattern, it was "ab cdef-g" for steamers. For steamers. the "c" normally indicated how the loco was powered.

Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
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Offline kbvrod  
#27 Posted : 22 October 2012 19:35:07(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Timothy Go to Quoted Post
Please note that (in the UIC numbering) the DR used 0xx numbers for steam engines, 1xx numbers for Diesel engines and 2xx numbers for electric engines (slightly different to the scheme of the DB).
Not quite. They used 1xx for diesel, 2xx for electric locos - and all other digits for steam locos. Thus only few steamers (18 => 02, 19 => 04, 22 => 39, 24 => 37) needed new numbers.

While diesel and electric locos had numbers according to the "abc def-g" pattern, it was "ab cdef-g" for steamers. For steamers. the "c" normally indicated how the loco was powered.


Hi all,
Tom,I *think* what Timothy was referring to was the classification number,i.e. first number (ex:044,dampf,etc) in Epoch 4,both DB&DR.

Dr D
Offline kbvrod  
#28 Posted : 22 October 2012 19:44:47(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Timothy,all,

>As for models, you may also look for Roco engines<

Nor Piko,Gützold or FL!BigGrin

>What is also special for East German steam engines is that engines did undergo a refit program (called reconstruction and therefor engines are sometimes called "Reko" engines). You can identify these steam engines easily by the special construction just in front of the smoke pipe (is that the correct English term?).<

Good point!Yes,the 'rebuilds' in English are "Reko" loks,near the smoke stack.Cool


Dr D




Online H0  
#29 Posted : 22 October 2012 20:25:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,838
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Tom,I *think* what Timothy was referring to was the classification number,i.e. first number (ex:044,dampf,etc) in Epoch 4,both DB&DR.
I was referring to the DR number pattern in era IV.
DB added "0" to the era III class numbers (with some modifications), DR reserved 0 and 3 through 9 for steamers.
DR class 50 steamers had 50 xxxx numbers in era IV (044 xxx in the west, 44 xxxx in the east), but 18 201 became 02 0201 because leading 1 was reserved for diesel.
So in era IV, most DR steamers had a leading digit that was not 0. And for those with a leading 0, the DR pattern was 0x xxxx, not 0xx xxx.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
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Offline kbvrod  
#30 Posted : 22 October 2012 21:18:41(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Tom,all,
Thanks! It's seems that the two railroads had differences in classifications as well as signaling :-)

Dr D
Offline Timothy  
#31 Posted : 22 October 2012 23:37:32(UTC)
Timothy


Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: France
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Sadly I missed the auction today busy with family.
These coaches went for a song... kicking myself!Angry

www.ebay.com/itm/330810654280
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330810655041


For these coaches, you can use a BR 118 (Piko has a relatively new and nice model), a BR 243 (only in the 1980s and later), a BR 11x or even a steam loco. For some pictures taken in March 1978, please refer to this German speaking forum. The coaches you are interested in are pulled by a 01.5 DR.

Offline jeehring  
#32 Posted : 23 October 2012 16:34:11(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
....here is a picture of the Express train model "Berlin-Leipzig" with an E 18 and shurzenwagen, all in DR livery:
http://medienpdb.maerkli...g/grossansicht/26509.jpg
(Marklin picture)

one additional set of 2 cars was available ...I love this train.
Offline GlennM  
#33 Posted : 23 October 2012 18:25:51(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,385
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mark,

Related to your Schicht coach, perhaps these pictures are of interest:

DR Doppelstockwagen

The description says "22 032 mit Personenzug von Görlitz nach Dresden um 1964" or "22 032 with a passenger train from Görlitz to Dresden around 1964". At least to me it looks like the marking on the side is "Deutsche Reichsbahn" written in full as on your model. The following picture is from Dresden in 1972 and it seems that for era IV the marking was changed to "DR".

DR Doppelstockwagen Dresden


I found this link to a DR model made by Roco and in the English(*) version there is a description of the background for these coaches. Link to Roco photo.

Roco has this series of these 1980-ies DR coaches 64800 1st class coach, 64 802 and 64803 2nd class coaches and 64804 combined 2nd class and luggage coach that can be used with DR steam, DR diesel or DR electric locomotives as well as DB diesel or electric locomotives, since these coaches were used in Interzone trains(**).

A version of these coaches were the "Städteexpresswagen" which was a concept of higher quality InterCity trains between regional capitals in the DDR and Berlin (East). Roco models are 64823 1st class coach, 64824 and 64825 2nd class coaches. Link to Roco photo.


Per

______
(*) I must admit that I find the English a bit difficult to read and i suspect that Roco has just fed a German text to translation software (or had a bad translator).

(**) Interzone trains were trains that crossed the intra-German border between DDR and Bundesrepublik Deutschland and they called at several stations in both the DDR and the Bundesrepublik. Another group of trains were the Transit trains that normally went between the Bundesrepublik and Berlin (West) without stops in the DDR.





Trix also make a pre-war version of the coaches if you are interested.

Please also see the Berlin to Leipzig express set by Marklin

Berlin to Leipzig Express - Märklin Item 26509

UserPostedImage

and the addition coach set - Märklin Item 43208

UserPostedImage

More pics appear under this thread Show us your locomotive purchase - 2012 (see page 34)

BR

Glenn
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Offline kbvrod  
#34 Posted : 23 October 2012 18:53:01(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
Should we discuss the differences between the DB and DR?

Dr D
Offline NS1200  
#35 Posted : 23 October 2012 19:01:38(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by: kbvrod
Hi all,
Should we discuss the differences between the DB and DR?

Dr D



Such as?

Edited by moderator 30 October 2012 19:19:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline mike c  
#36 Posted : 23 October 2012 19:12:06(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,918
Location: Montreal, QC
Mark,

there is a dealer in NJ who has a lot of Eastern European brands in his lineup. You can find more details about the selection here: http://www.eurotrainhobby.com

At the present, there are a couple of companies who are becoming more active in Eastern European models, including Heris, LSM (more modern stuff), as well as Roco. I guess that these companies are trying to obtain the market share formerly taken by Guetzold.

Brawa also has some 1960s former DR electrics, which were basically the East German answer to the E10/E39. Maerklin and Roco have both had models of more recent models of the 143/242/212 class.

Piko also made loks (Br 180 Skoda, etc) as well as coaches.

It was very interesting to see how the East Germans came up with many designs as response to West German innovations, how some productions were cancelled and the production equipment moved to other East Bloc countries according to Soviet central planning of manufacture. The DDR versions of the V160 and V200 never went into large scale production and a lot of the equipment used to build the prototypes was taken to Russia and used to build the Lludmilla and Taigatrommel classes which went on to become the Eastern Bloc workhorses.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline kbvrod  
#37 Posted : 23 October 2012 19:29:41(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
Should we discuss the differences between the DB and DR?

Dr D
Such as?


Please excuse me if this gets into the political realm,....

After the war,the Allies poured millions upon millions of funds into to the DB and Europe as a whole.
Therefore the West grew and prospered at faster rate the Eastern Europe and the DDR and the DR railroads.Now,please refute that fact.
The DR had to do with what they had,Reko loks,rolling stock,coaches.The USSR would not help.If you think otherwise you do NOT know.


Dr D
Offline Timothy  
#38 Posted : 23 October 2012 20:18:23(UTC)
Timothy


Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: France
Dr D is very right about the USSR and the DR. For many double-tracked lines, the Russians took away one track and transported the material to the USSR (keep in mind that the USSR was in some areas completely devastated by the German Army). Some of the former double-tracked lines have not been reconstructed with the missing second track until the 1990s. During all times, the DR had problems with getting enough material to rebuild, newly build or even to maintain there infrastructure. That's why the maximum speed was not more than 120 km/h (with only few exceptions). And at the end of the 1980s, the infrastructure was in very bad condition due to not enough maintenance and, you should know that, heavy use of the DR. Rail traffic was very high in the GDR because government saw that transportation by rail is much more efficient than by trucks. In all parts of live in the GDR, the lack of resources and materials was a heavy burden.

I have found an interesting website with a lot of pictures of DR rolling stock: click.
Best,

Tim
Offline kbvrod  
#39 Posted : 23 October 2012 20:52:58(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Tim,all,
Thanks,I do not want this wonderful thread to get into politics. BigGrin That is,something we we don't need to get into,IMHO.

The DR did have to scrape,dig,and save every bolt to rebuild the railway system.A wonderful modeling project

LOL Weathering is must for the DR!

Dr D(guilty!)
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Offline Western Pacific  
#40 Posted : 23 October 2012 22:42:18(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
You have been a member since:: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 767
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
I agree with the view that we should not get into politics. Another point which I also agree with is the fact that DR (and DDR) had to make do with much less funds than the west.

For Sweden this lack of funds, in particular western currencies, was noticed, since one important export route was goods sent by train via the Trelleborg - Sassnitz ferry route.
I have read about instructions to people working at the Trelleborg F ferry station to inspect all freight wagons in order to not send then onto the ferry if it was likely that for instance brake blocks needed replacing soon. The reason behind this instruction was the fact that DR was very keen on inspecting all wagons that came to the DR network and if any problems were found, real or invented, take the wagon out of the train and repair it and last but not least invoice the Swedish State Railways and thereby generate sales in a western currency.

From what I've read this was bad for two reasons, first the cargo on the wagon was delayed and second the level of the invoices were such that it was much more economical to have repairs done in Sweden and this even with the relatively high salaries paid here.

In another post by NS1200, there is a link to a youtube video about DR's VT 18.16. This type of train was actually used between Berlin and Malmö (1968 - 1971), but the DR wanted to run them all the way to Stockholm some 600 km further north. This would have put SJ in a position where SJ had to pay the DR for a very large km compensation for DR trains running in Sweden since there were no Swedish passenger coaches going to Berlin at that time.

On the other hand when I was younger and when there were no Märklin DR wagons, I felt that I couldn't make prototypically correct Swedish freight trains since it wasn't uncommon to see DR wagons in them.
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Offline BR01097  
#41 Posted : 24 October 2012 04:57:25(UTC)
BR01097

United States   
Joined: 17/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 221
Location: Denver, Colo. USA



Since the war, there were virtually no models available from Märklin of DR wagons or locomotives until detente with the Soviet Union, although surely there is no connection. The first set featured was of P8 model #3099 with two coaches and a baggage car with cupola, the inscription on the cab "Deutsche Reichsbahn" in the new Märklin items flyer of 1978. Notable too in that year's catalog was the winged wheel insignia on the streamlined BR 03.10, a heavily stylized version of the Eagle atop the swastika, both symbols laden with far too much sentiment just thirty years afterward.

I was pretty sure the lack of models had everything to do with a divided Germany, and toys should not remind one of that kind of reality and bad sentiment. But now the war is long over and those models seem quite abundant. Someone mentioned Schicht, a fine make manufactured in the former East Germany to be compatible with Märklin coupling systems.

But you're interested in motive power. It so happens there is an extra #3099 in my collection to be put up for sale on eBay in a few days.
{http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marklin-3099-Steam-Locomotive-38-3553-der-Reichsbahn-Tender-Original-Box-/300805402436?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4609662f44}

P8's were the backbone of local- and regional express passenger in both Germanys well into the '70s. This one is lettered for the DRG up to early post-war Europe. I do not recall seeing P8's active behind the Iron Curtain during my visit Summer of '78. An East German railroading magazine I bought then suggested that of steam the DR was using mostly BR 03 for expresses and BR 44 in freight, although I did see a BR86 switching on a branchline.


Edited by user 29 October 2012 01:40:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


____________________________________________________________________________

Collector of Märklin fine-quality trains since 1966.




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Offline mike c  
#42 Posted : 24 October 2012 05:14:33(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,918
Location: Montreal, QC
The E11/E42 were the DDR response to the E10/E41 of the DB. It is true that in the years after the war, the Soviets helped themselves to a lot of the infrastructure, which was used to rebuild the USSR itself at the expense of the occupied zone. Starting in 1949, this changed as East Germany was transformed from an occupied zone to the German Democratic Republic (Deutsche Demokratische Republik or DDR). In the 1950s, new tractive material was required, especially for the main lines on the Leipzig-Dresden and Leipzig-Halle corridors. The result was the E11/E42. These locomotive classes were the backbones of the DR's electric fleet until the 1980s, when the new class 143/243 were introduced.
As far as diesel traction, DDR manufacturers introduced the BR 118, which was intended as the DR equivalent of the V160 and V200 classes of the DB. The 118 (later V 180) was built in reasonable numbers after a slow start. In the 1970s, when additional loks were required, the Soviet master plan blocked the production of new loks of this type in the DDR, so follow up production was made at plants in Romania. 200 of these loks were made in Romania, but their performance was by far inferior to the earlier DDR manufactured 118s.
The Soviet master plan called for large diesel loks to be made at Soviet plants, so the DDR had no option other than to order and implement Soviet diesel loks, including the V 200 (M62) of which under 400 of these Ukraine manufactured loks, known as "Taigatrommel" or Taiko drums and the V 130 of which 873 went into service with the DR, commonly known as the "Lludmilla"
In the late 1970s, the DR required additional electric loks for the main lines around Leipzig and Dresden, and it was decided to develop a new locomotives, the first, BR 250, today DB class 155 and the second, similar to the BR 111 of the DB. The decision was made to develop the 143/243, which was very successful and went on to become the DB class 212 after reunification. Those DR loks are still in use, mostly in Regional traffic today.
The 143/243/212 and 250/155 went on to see service not only in former East Germany, but also on the rest of the DB network. The reason for this was that there was little money available after reunification to pursue the electrification of many lines in the former DDR, so as IC and IR services were taken over on the lines that had been electrified lines by BR 103, 111 and 120.1 loks, the former DR loks that had been used to pull the top of the line DR Express trains could now be used to pull regional and commuter trains on many other parts of the network. This was accelerated with the introduction of ICE service between West Germany and Berlin and the integration of Leipzig, Dresden and a few other cities to that network.
Today, the main lines between Probstzella and Berlin, Frankfurt and Dresden, Hamburg and Berlin and Hannover and Berlin are all electrified and part of the Intercity and Eurocity networks.
Around 2000, the majority of the Taigatrommels were withdrawn from service. A number of the V 130s were upgraded for passenger service on non-electrified routes and others were upgraded for heavy freight traffic. Many of those loks are still in use with DB Regio and DB Cargo today.
The only other former Eastern bloc lok that was used in reasonable numbers was the Czech (Skoda) built class 230 (DB BR 180), which was used in the Dresden region and later between Prag and Berlin. The Czech design was chosen because the DDR's only plant making electric locomotives was busy with the 250/143/243 and could not undertake production of a dual voltage design for the DR and CD at that time.
The 180 is still in use today, mostly on the same routes between Berlin and the Czech and Polish borders.

The German wikipedia pages provide information for all these lok classes. Another useful source of information if you can find it is back issues of the Berlin based Bahnprofil or Eisenbahn Illustrierte.

The E11/E41 are available in model from Brawa and Piko
The 143/243/212 are available in model from Maerklin and Roco
The 250/155 are available from Roco and Guetzold
The 230/180 is available from Piko
The 118/119 is available from Guetzold
The Taigatrommel and Lludmilla are available from Roco (both), Guetzold (Taigatrommel), Piko (Lludmilla) and Maerklin (Lludmilla)

DR coaches to match these loks are available from Guetzold, Sachsenmodelle/Tillig, Piko and Roco, to name a few.

Regards

Mike C

Edited by user 24 October 2012 05:31:24(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Mark5  
#43 Posted : 24 October 2012 18:36:38(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The E11/E42 were the DDR response to the E10/E41 of the DB. It is true that in the years after the war, the Soviets helped themselves to a lot of the infrastructure, which was used to rebuild the USSR itself at the expense of the occupied zone. Starting in 1949, this changed as East Germany was transformed from an occupied zone to the German Democratic Republic (Deutsche Demokratische Republik or DDR). In the 1950s, new tractive material was required, especially for the main lines on the Leipzig-Dresden and Leipzig-Halle corridors. The result was the E11/E42. These locomotive classes were the backbones of the DR's electric fleet until the 1980s, when .......,
.....

The German wikipedia pages provide information for all these lok classes. Another useful source of information if you can find it is back issues of the Berlin based Bahnprofil or Eisenbahn Illustrierte.

The E11/E41 are available in model from Brawa and Piko
The 143/243/212 are available in model from Maerklin and Roco
The 250/155 are available from Roco and Guetzold
The 230/180 is available from Piko
The 118/119 is available from Guetzold
The Taigatrommel and Lludmilla are available from Roco (both), Guetzold (Taigatrommel), Piko (Lludmilla) and Maerklin (Lludmilla)

DR coaches to match these loks are available from Guetzold, Sachsenmodelle/Tillig, Piko and Roco, to name a few.

Regards

Mike C


Excellent information Mike.
Thanks so much again.

And thanks to everyone posting here.
I am getting pretty excited about the research.

One thing that is harder to find is the lives of the rail workers.
I really want to dig deeper and imagine the lives of the rail workers in East and West Germany from 1945 until 1990 but especially during Era III.
Its not clear yet to me but I want to write a parallel narrative using the model layouts of two brothers or two family members or friends that are separated by the wall but both working in the railway. What would you imagine their lives would be like?

This will take me time and persistence, so anyone who has ideas, thoughts, suggestions, it is much appreciated.

Paul has also posted a very interesting youtube clip on the subject.
He writes:
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post

Topic: The pride of the DR,lost and found government train.
Posted: 23 October 2012 01:16:43

The top of the former DDR (East Germany prior to 1990) sometimes travelled by train to important meetings with foreign colleagues.
Some of these meetings were secret to the general public and took place in the middle of nowhere.
Some of the coaches were traced back on remote sidings and from what i underrstand are being restored.
Interesting food for historians.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQElpBnPPfU

Paul.

Thanks Paul
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline NS1200  
#44 Posted : 24 October 2012 18:43:12(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Deleted by user.

Edited by user 28 October 2012 11:11:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Mark5  
#45 Posted : 25 October 2012 03:50:51(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
Should we discuss the differences between the DB and DR?

Dr D
Such as?


Please excuse me if this gets into the political realm,....

.....If you think otherwise you do NOT know.


Dr D

Apparently there is slight misunderstanding between us as to the question i asked in response to your question.
....
Paul.


Thank you both for your questions. I think this difference DB and DR, west and east,
makes for a very worthwhile discussion and you both make excellent points and questions.

I appreciate both candor and diplomacy when it comes to politics. Wink

I think it impossible to talk about this fascinating subject without some politics, at least on a historical level.
Lets keep this discussion going and respect the inquiry that is helpful to all and our understanding
of this important part of rail and model rail history.

Thank you Paul and Kevin.
I love you bothWub Love
Big sloppy kisses.
Peace and Happiness.

- Mark

p.s. Having four little girls makes me a bit of sentimentalist.

Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline NS1200  
#46 Posted : 25 October 2012 05:14:43(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Mark,

Buy the Berlin to Leipzig express train!
If you do not buy it,i will!
This is a very interesting Maerklin model i think.
It is made up of a loco and coaches used by the Reichsbahn between 1933 and 1945,thence repainted into DR (DDR) colors after the war.
In the DDR era Leipzig was a city known for the big international trade fairs,a lot of western bussiness men travelled to Leipzig for that reason.
And Berlin speaks for itself.

Paul.
Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Mark5  
#47 Posted : 25 October 2012 05:37:11(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Mark,

Buy the Berlin to Leipzig express train!
If you do not buy it,i will!
This is a very interesting Maerklin model i think.
It is made up of a loco and coaches used by the Reichsbahn between 1933 and 1945,thence repainted into DR (DDR) colors after the war.
In the DDR era Leipzig was a city known for the big international trade fairs,a lot of western bussiness men travelled to Leipzig for that reason.
And Berlin speaks for itself.

Paul.


Good idea Paul,
As soon as I saw it posted here and started reading about it and dreaming about it, the Berlin to Leipzig went very high on my want list...
I can see that working really well in the story.
... Having said that my train budget will have to wait a while with new glasses for a girl and dental work for me to do, first I have to itemized and sell some of the other train stuff I've acquired, and get a better handle on how to set up other systems. But I can still dream Smile

Let me know if you find anything about Leipzig in the 60s wrt to rail history, etc.
- Mark
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline river6109  
#48 Posted : 25 October 2012 06:00:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,708
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Whether you go for DB or DR or both (what ever your interests are) for me it is a marketing stunt by any model train producer to produce the same loco for different Railway companies and to some degree since the nations of Europe are what one could call: unified, Märklin and other producers have benefited from it.
it is a matter of money, taste and choices how many railway companies you include into your collection or layout.
I myself, have started mainly with DB locos, than Austrian, Swiss, Dutch and French. over the years I've realized to keep it up it would be a money spinner for the sellers but I could see the outcome in the end so I culled my collection to DB, ÖBB, SBB and SNCF with a couple from SNCB and 1 FS diesel loco.

Historically it is again another story to compare the 2 railway companies before or after the war and one can say even when the wall was removed east Germans felt inferior against their counter part from West Germany.
Having said this many companies including railway depots etc etc. had been scrapped after the unification putting a strain on employment opportunities.
Working for the railway in East Germany. and steam was kept much longer than the West, the existance to work would have given these people a formal security and most probably an insecure status after the unification.

the ordinary East German worker had what they needed to live and the Comminist regime gave them this security it didn't go anywhere, it didn't make any profits or gave them browny points except choining the party.
How both sides railway workers had been integrated into another railway system, corridor or similar work, I don't know but what ever working and living standards both sides had would have been adequate.
Even if you look at the West, not everything is rosy and this is what the Eastern People thought, there will be a new live, prosperous and rich, they soon found out it wasn't all cake and the icing soon dropped off.
I don't think there is much difference between a railway worker in Germany or Thailand both have a certain expectance from live and both are happy to be a live.

If you take for instance the english railsystem , most of the followers and worshippers of steam in Britian are older people, who lived, who worked, who supplied, who travelled, who adored the ingeneering skills of their anchestors including bridges, tunnels and the locos them selves.

and one could say it stood still for many years without any modifications or improvements, the governments spend their money on roads.

to find something extra ordinary in the past history of both East and West Berlin is from the person who has certain living standards and is trying to apply these to a culture who do not live on a point scale.

Education is one of the important lessons any country can benefit from and from an economic point of view, each country has their own economic culture, it may be Western or Eastern culture or religion, the question I ask my self is, who benefits more from what.

If I would look at the Austrian railsystem and integrate other railsystem into my layout, this would mean: Hungarian, Slovenia, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Chech Republic and Slowakia.

or one goes back to the Habsburg empire:

The Kingdom of Croatia (1527–1868);
The Kingdom of Slavonia (1699-1868);
The Grand Principality of Transylvania, between 1699 (Treaty of Karlowitz) and 1867 (Ausgleich)
The Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria, in modern Poland and Ukraine (1772–1918)
Duchy of Bukovina (1774–1918);
New Galicia, the Polish lands, including Kraków, taken in the Third Partition (1795–1809);
Venetia (1797–1805);
Kingdom of Dalmatia (1797–1805, 1814–1918);
Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia (1814–1859);
Kraków, which was incorporated into Galicia (1846–1918);
The Voivodeship of Serbia and Banat of Temeschwar (1849-1860);
The Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia (1868–1918);
Sanjak of Novi Pazar occupation (1878–1913);
Bosnia and Herzegovina (1878–1918)



regards.,

John

Edited by user 25 October 2012 06:18:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Mark5  
#49 Posted : 25 October 2012 19:05:53(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Mark,

...[...]...

It was very interesting to see how the East Germans came up with many designs as response to West German innovations, how some productions were cancelled and the production equipment moved to other East Bloc countries according to Soviet central planning of manufacture. The DDR versions of the V160 and V200 never went into large scale production and a lot of the equipment used to build the prototypes was taken to Russia and used to build the Lludmilla and Taigatrommel classes which went on to become the Eastern Bloc workhorses.

Regards

Mike C


Thanks so much Mike.

Been ruminating on this. What an amazing story. Any idea where I read more about this or see photos of the DDR versisons of V160 and V200? Books? Photos?

===

Lots of good thoughts John,
You are helping me fill in my ideas on what an average (or perhaps an exceptionally interesting) character/figure/work in the railway in East German would be like. Thanks once again

- Mark

Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Timothy  
#50 Posted : 25 October 2012 19:44:08(UTC)
Timothy


Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: France
bahnbilder.de provides a lot of pictures, old and new. Pictures of the BR 118 DR (V180DR) and the BR 120 DR (V200DR).

The BR 120 DR has been called Taigatrommel (Taiga drum) because it was delivered from Russia without exhaust silencer. In the vast and less populated landscape of Russia, you do not really need that. That's why some love these locos because of their special sound. However, people living close to shunting yards or near railway lines started to complain and the DR started to order the locos with a silencer. The first (I think) 200 locos got a silencer later.

EDIT: Just in the last months, Piko also came up with different version of the BR 118 and BR 119.

Best,

Tim
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Offline Mark5  
#51 Posted : 25 October 2012 19:44:52(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Mark...[...]...
It was very interesting to see how the East Germans came up with many designs as response to West German innovations, how some productions were cancelled and the production equipment moved to other East Bloc countries according to Soviet central planning of manufacture. The DDR versions of the V160 and V200 never went into large scale production and a lot of the equipment used to build the prototypes was taken to Russia and used to build the Lludmilla and Taigatrommel classes which went on to become the Eastern Bloc workhorses.


Thanks so much Mike.

Been ruminating on this. What an amazing story. Any idea where I read more about this or see photos of the DDR versisons of V160 and V200? Books? Photos?


Found a partial answer to my own question here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_V_200

Is anyone is interesting in checking the translation works or has corrections for me,
Google translator did this:
The series V 200 of the Deutsche Reichsbahn was a series of diesel-electric locomotives. She is built for the DDR version of the Soviet type M62. With the introduction of computer numbers at the Deutsche Reichsbahn 1970 she was re-drawn on the series 120th The last ones were 1992, the pan-German series designation 220th series

Contents

1 History
2 Technology
3 Applications
4 V 200 at industrial railways
5 Literature
6 Web

History

In the 1960s, the conversion of the traction of steam was propagated on diesel. For this purpose not only locomotives in Babelsberg and Hennigsdorf were built, but also locomotives from Luhansk in the Soviet Union (now Ukraine) imported. This was necessary because in the future due to specialization agreements within the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance (CMEA) in the GDR no longer diesels higher power should be built. The first of these series, the V 200 was imported, later BR. 120 to 1,470 kW (2,000 hp) for freight service These were the best type M 62, which was delivered many years of Soviet and foreign cars. From 1966 to 1975 involved the German Reichsbahn total of 378 locomotives of this type.

Technology

The locomotive had a very heavy frame of double-T beams with cover and base plate, two three-axle bogies with skid plates, axles and conducted Drehzapfenanlenkung. The primary suspension is realized by compensating lever, leaf and coil springs.

14D40 a two-stroke V-type diesel engine with two turbochargers and Roots blower is at the heart of this locomotive. The capacity is 1470 kW at a speed of 750 min-1. The traction energy was converted by a separately excited DC generator. The power control was performed by a magnetic flux in the exciter field control the exciter. The traction motors are DC series wound motors. The electric traction power was set to 1250 kW. To the armature currents of the driving motors in the upper speed range again to raise the engine possessed two Shuntierungsstufen that were connected in parallel to the excitation windings of the six nose-traction motors. A similar design is used the locomotive family of DR series 130th

The fans for traction motors and traction generator are mechanically driven by drive shafts from the diesel engine. The cooling fan is driven directly by the diesel engine, for controlling a fluid coupling is connected therebetween. A special component for the Roots blower. It promotes combustion air and produces a pre-compression of 0.2 bar. This is necessary, because a two-stroke engine has to be flushed, it can not simultaneously open inlet and outlet valves draw slots automatically. After the start, the two turbochargers running high boost pressure and increase to around 1.2 bar. The diesel engine was 400 min-1 idle speed, but even at 750 min-1 its maximum speed. The engine has cylinders in V formation. The pistons of the B-side sit with Anlenkpleueln Hauptpleueln on the A side. This changes the piston speeds between the A and B side. The engine produces on both cylinder banks differ much power. The fuel gauge is 3900 liters of diesel oil. A Sifa was present Indusi not.

Since the first 177 locomotives shipped from the factory still had a muffler and thus produced a high noise level, they are also known colloquially as "Taiga Drum" or "Stalin's last revenge" means. For these locomotives were the silencer through the Raw Meiningen rebuilt and installed in part prior to the loss.

Use
DR 120 268, Dresden 1981st
220 355 in the Railway Museum Hermeskeil

The locomotive was designed from the start for heavy freight service. Since they had no train heating, it was only occasionally strained during the summer months before passenger trains. Top speed was in favor of pulling force at 100 km / h

Once up to the reunification of the Federal Railroad locomotives already all series were scrapped 220, the German Reichsbahn 1992 drew more than 200 vehicles in its class 120 "Series 220" by. Until its final shutdown in 1995, these locomotives also contributed to the merger of Deutsche Bahn AG, the series designation 220 in the second assignment.

The German Bahn AG has seven specimens for museum purposes. In the tradition depot Staßfurt from the last series, the 120 366 has not been maintained in working order. Even the Railway Museum Chemnitz-Hilbersdorf owns the 120,269 a copy. The Dresden Transport Museum has kept its 120,338 long time in his custody at the depot Dresden Altstadt in the neighborhood of Dresden Railway Museum. The depot has Arnstadt with 120,274 also a copy of the 120th series For the railway enthusiasts Thuringia in Weimar is the 120 198 and at the Mecklenburg Railway enthusiasts in the former depot Schwerin 001 and the 120.

Some machines have been sold to Lithuania and North Korea as well as to German private railway. Also from the factory purchased by other countries locomotives (former PKP ST44 series of PKP and 781 ČD), some in German private cars in use.

Scheduled to be in Germany in 2007, the V series locomotives used only 200 of the Leipzig Railway Company (LEG).
V 200 in industrial railways

The M62 was also supplied to industrial lines of the GDR. Initially the plant railway SDAG Wismut received for use on its part of the Deutsche Reichsbahn owned network between Kayna, Raitzhain and Seelingstädt 1972 and 1973 five locomotives, which were classified as V 200 501 to 505.

Subsequently, three machines were delivered to the lignite Combine Geisel for operation in the coal traffic in the Halle / Merseburg, the numbers were V 200506-508.

1976 to 1978 received the bismuth train further ten locomotives that were without regard to the previously supplied through the BKK0 Geiseltal machines numbered V 200506-515. In 1993 the railway was operating at the BKK set Geisel, the V 200 V 200 506 and the 5089, which was acquired in 1996 by the DR, were sold to the railway bismuth. The stakes of the V 200 at the track ended bismuth 1998th

The V 200 of bismuth and train BKK Geisel were not considered working locomotives involved in the renumbering of the DR.

Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Timothy  
#52 Posted : 25 October 2012 20:02:55(UTC)
Timothy


Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: France
Good idea to translate the German wikipage. I can take a look at it later. But it seems to need some work. Anyway, once the text is translated, one should generate a new, English wikipage for the V200DR.

Best,

Tim
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Offline I_love_Marklin_37538  
#53 Posted : 25 October 2012 21:55:27(UTC)
I_love_Marklin_37538


Joined: 18/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,070
Location: ,
Can anyone tell me about the Sachsenstolz Steam Locomotive in the DR,I am still hoping M will make the XXHV

UserPostedImage
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Offline Mark5  
#54 Posted : 26 October 2012 00:42:52(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: Timothy Go to Quoted Post
Good idea to translate the German wikipage. I can take a look at it later. But it seems to need some work. Anyway, once the text is translated, one should generate a new, English wikipage for the V200DR.
Best,
Tim


Great idea, but someone has to find time to do it. I have done edits, but never generated a new page.
You also have to do all the footnoting. The great thing about writing historical fiction rather than being a historian is that you don't need to do footnotes. Having said that, I welcome and encourage anyone to do correct translations of more pages on German and European rail history, for both community and selfish reasons.

- Mark



Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Timothy  
#55 Posted : 26 October 2012 09:59:36(UTC)
Timothy


Joined: 13/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: France
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
The great thing about writing historical fiction rather than being a historian is that you don't need to do footnotes.


:-) Cannot agree more. I propose we start with translating here and later, piece by piece, generate a new wiki page.

Best,

Tim



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Offline Western Pacific  
#56 Posted : 30 October 2012 19:05:13(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
You have been a member since:: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 767
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post



< cut >


Please also see the Berlin to Leipzig express set by Marklin

Berlin to Leipzig Express - Märklin Item 26509

UserPostedImage

and the addition coach set - Märklin Item 43208

UserPostedImage

More pics appear under this thread Show us your locomotive purchase - 2012 (see page 34)

BR

Glenn



Hi Glenn,

Your photos inspired me, so I had a look at ebay.de on Friday (October 26th) and found a set 43208 and a set 26509. The 43208 was mailed on Saturday and I got it yesterday (Monday) and today I got a notification from ebay stating that the 26509 has been shipped.

The 43208 was sent from Erding, near Munich, actually even closer to Munich airport than to the city and it must have been sent by air as Registered mail. The 26509 will most likely take longer since the seller has indicated DHL package, which usually means surface, and it is sent from Erftstadt, near Cologne. With some luck I'll se it on Friday, but more likely early next week. (To reach me this week, the package needs to get to Hamburg on Wednesday and reach Malmö in southern Sweden not later than Thursday and finally arrive in the Stockholm area at the latest very early Friday morning).

EDIT: The 26509 arrived today (Wednesday). It turned out that it was shipped Monday, handled by DHL in Cologne at 19h47, reached Hamburg at 04H25 on Tuesday and reached Malmö at 13h27 on Tuesday. Arrived in the Stockholm area at 06h38 today (with a comment 'delayed') and came to my home town at 08h11, put in a delivery van at 08h46 and arrived at my home just before lunch at 11h31.

This is clearly one of the faster surface deliveries of eBay Märklin purchases from Germay that I've experienced.


Per

Edited by user 31 October 2012 11:39:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Frankenbahner  
#57 Posted : 01 November 2012 15:45:41(UTC)
Frankenbahner

Germany   
Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 581
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
Märklin hasn't released a large number of DR stuff since reunification. However, I don't think it's just because they don't want to. There just aren't enough customers for AC products in Eastern Germany. This area is dominated by two-rail DC and TT gauge. Sure, Märklin could release Trix DC versions - but European two-rail DC modellers will nevertheless prefer the "classic" DC brands like Roco.

Märklin's main market is located in Western Germany (except Bavaria, which is "two-rail DC land"), Switzerland and Benelux. New tooling for a nice SBB loco will turn out as more profitable for Märklin, as new tooling for any DR loco. So, I don't think you should expect any further new tooling of Eastern German stuff from Märklin.

If Märklin will release any new DR stuff, this could be:

- DR versions of previous DRG rolling stock, also used by the DB in postwar Western Germany
- DR rolling stock transferred to Western Germany after reunification

So, if you look for more Eastern German trains, you have to take a look to Eastern German firms like Piko, or Tillig. And Western German manufacturer Brawa has a nice range of DR diesels and electrics for AC. Older Eastern German stuff is often available on swap markets and on Ebay for very good prices.

Regards,
Florian

Edited by user 01 November 2012 15:57:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
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Offline RayF  
#58 Posted : 01 November 2012 18:15:55(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,391
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

UserPostedImage
Ray (aka "the fool")

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Mark5  
#59 Posted : 02 November 2012 18:38:35(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

[img....]

Beautiful Ray. Really like that model... I have looking at a lot of DR stuff lately, thanks to everyone's great tips and links.
What will she pull Ray?

- Mark

Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Mark5  
#60 Posted : 02 November 2012 18:41:30(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post


Please also see the Berlin to Leipzig express set by Marklin

Berlin to Leipzig Express - Märklin Item 26509

and the addition coach set - Märklin Item 43208

More pics appear under this thread Show us your locomotive purchase - 2012 (see page 34)

BR

Glenn



Hi Glenn,

Your photos inspired me, so I had a look at ebay.de on Friday (October 26th) and found a set 43208 and a set 26509. The 43208 was mailed on Saturday and I got it yesterday (Monday) and today I got a notification from ebay stating that the 26509 has been shipped.

The 43208 was sent from Erding, near Munich, actually even closer to Munich airport than to the city and it must have been sent by air as Registered mail. The 26509 will most likely take longer since the seller has indicated DHL package, which usually means surface, and it is sent from Erftstadt, near Cologne. With some luck I'll se it on Friday, but more likely early next week. (To reach me this week, the package needs to get to Hamburg on Wednesday and reach Malmö in southern Sweden not later than Thursday and finally arrive in the Stockholm area at the latest very early Friday morning).

EDIT: The 26509 arrived today (Wednesday). It turned out that it was shipped Monday, handled by DHL in Cologne at 19h47, reached Hamburg at 04H25 on Tuesday and reached Malmö at 13h27 on Tuesday. Arrived in the Stockholm area at 06h38 today (with a comment 'delayed') and came to my home town at 08h11, put in a delivery van at 08h46 and arrived at my home just before lunch at 11h31.

This is clearly one of the faster surface deliveries of eBay Märklin purchases from Germay that I've experienced.


Per


That's a beautiful set on my wish list!
Nice work Per. Let me know how she runs.... would love to see a video of it on your set on its way to Leipzig... in what year?

Thanks for sharing,
Mark


Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline RayF  
#61 Posted : 02 November 2012 21:49:58(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,391
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

[img....]

Beautiful Ray. Really like that model... I have looking at a lot of DR stuff lately, thanks to everyone's great tips and links.
What will she pull Ray?

- Mark



Hi Mark,

I don't have any DR coaches, so I thought of maybe getting the Piko double decker coaches to make up this train:

UserPostedImage
Ray (aka "the fool")

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Mark5  
#62 Posted : 02 November 2012 22:00:47(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

[img....]

Beautiful Ray. Really like that model... I have looking at a lot of DR stuff lately, thanks to everyone's great tips and links.
What will she pull Ray?

- Mark



Hi Mark,

I don't have any DR coaches, so I thought of maybe getting the Piko double decker coaches to make up this train:

[img......img]



Ray,
I'd love to see that in action. Let me know if you do make that work for you.
Any idea when that photo was taken?
- Mark



Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline RayF  
#63 Posted : 02 November 2012 23:41:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,391
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

[img....]

Beautiful Ray. Really like that model... I have looking at a lot of DR stuff lately, thanks to everyone's great tips and links.
What will she pull Ray?

- Mark



Hi Mark,

I don't have any DR coaches, so I thought of maybe getting the Piko double decker coaches to make up this train:

[img......img]



Ray,
I'd love to see that in action. Let me know if you do make that work for you.
Any idea when that photo was taken?
- Mark





Hi Mark,

I found the photo on Bahnbilder.de. It was taken in Brandenburg on 24 April 1995
Ray (aka "the fool")

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline GlennM  
#64 Posted : 03 November 2012 01:20:33(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,385
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post



< cut >


Please also see the Berlin to Leipzig express set by Marklin

Berlin to Leipzig Express - Märklin Item 26509

UserPostedImage

and the addition coach set - Märklin Item 43208

UserPostedImage

More pics appear under this thread Show us your locomotive purchase - 2012 (see page 34)

BR

Glenn



Hi Glenn,

Your photos inspired me, so I had a look at ebay.de on Friday (October 26th) and found a set 43208 and a set 26509. The 43208 was mailed on Saturday and I got it yesterday (Monday) and today I got a notification from ebay stating that the 26509 has been shipped.

The 43208 was sent from Erding, near Munich, actually even closer to Munich airport than to the city and it must have been sent by air as Registered mail. The 26509 will most likely take longer since the seller has indicated DHL package, which usually means surface, and it is sent from Erftstadt, near Cologne. With some luck I'll se it on Friday, but more likely early next week. (To reach me this week, the package needs to get to Hamburg on Wednesday and reach Malmö in southern Sweden not later than Thursday and finally arrive in the Stockholm area at the latest very early Friday morning).

EDIT: The 26509 arrived today (Wednesday). It turned out that it was shipped Monday, handled by DHL in Cologne at 19h47, reached Hamburg at 04H25 on Tuesday and reached Malmö at 13h27 on Tuesday. Arrived in the Stockholm area at 06h38 today (with a comment 'delayed') and came to my home town at 08h11, put in a delivery van at 08h46 and arrived at my home just before lunch at 11h31.

This is clearly one of the faster surface deliveries of eBay Märklin purchases from Germay that I've experienced.


Per



Per,

I am so glad I was able to inspire you. I first came across the set in an old catalogue whilst looking for something else and though that would look nice on my (as yet unbuilt BigGrin) layout.

I must say that reading through the threads in this Forum has introduced me to many items that I was unaware of, and in some cases I have gone on to buy them, and I think this is one of the great aspects to this great diverse Forum.

I hope you enjoy your set, and maybe post a few pics of it running around your layout.

Best Wishes

Glenn
Offline GlennM  
#65 Posted : 03 November 2012 01:23:00(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,385
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

UserPostedImage


Ray,

Don't Marklin make a set with a similar loco to this and some carriages?

BR

Glenn
Offline GlennM  
#66 Posted : 03 November 2012 01:27:05(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,385
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

[img....]

Beautiful Ray. Really like that model... I have looking at a lot of DR stuff lately, thanks to everyone's great tips and links.
What will she pull Ray?

- Mark



Hi Mark,

I don't have any DR coaches, so I thought of maybe getting the Piko double decker coaches to make up this train:

UserPostedImage


Ray and Mark,

Trix also make these double decker coaches but not in this livery, they are West German.

Here are a couple of photos of mine;

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

BR

Glenn

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Online H0  
#67 Posted : 03 November 2012 08:44:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,838
Hi, Glenn!
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Trix also make these double decker coaches but not in this livery, they are West German.
Yes, they are West German. And since both types of double stock coaches are post-war, they are completely different.
The West German type was experimental in era III and only six have been made (three short ones, three long ones; the Trix coaches (the long ones) will come in a Märklin version 43597 (it's 2011 Summer New Item and should be delivered any year soon), 303 mm length, AFAIK the longest Märklin H0 coaches ever).

East Germany made many double stock coaches in eras III and IV. Since era V double stock coaches (mostly newly built) are used all over Germany.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline RayF  
#68 Posted : 03 November 2012 08:59:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,391
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

UserPostedImage


Ray,

Don't Marklin make a set with a similar loco to this and some carriages?

BR

Glenn


Hi Glenn,

As far as I'm aware Marklin have never made this loco.
Ray (aka "the fool")

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#69 Posted : 03 November 2012 11:53:02(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,391
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I was looking at the Piko DR coaches, and I've noticed that the double decker coaches are 308mm long! I'd better think again, as these will hit all the catenary masts on my R1 curves.

http://www.piko.de/produ...;child_id=0&id=57622

Maybe I'll go for the "Modernisation" coaches: They are only 244mm long, and I quite like the green and cream colour!

http://www.piko.de/produ...;child_id=3&id=53042

UserPostedImage
Ray (aka "the fool")

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline GlennM  
#70 Posted : 03 November 2012 16:21:08(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,385
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Glenn!
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Trix also make these double decker coaches but not in this livery, they are West German.
Yes, they are West German. And since both types of double stock coaches are post-war, they are completely different.
The West German type was experimental in era III and only six have been made (three short ones, three long ones; the Trix coaches (the long ones) will come in a Märklin version 43597 (it's 2011 Summer New Item and should be delivered any year soon), 303 mm length, AFAIK the longest Märklin H0 coaches ever).

East Germany made many double stock coaches in eras III and IV. Since era V double stock coaches (mostly newly built) are used all over Germany.



Thanks Tom.

I have seen some coaches that are very similar on some old pre-war movie film, showing trains pulling into stations ???

Thanks for the information, as I was wondering what loco I should be using to pull them.

BR

Glenn
Offline GlennM  
#71 Posted : 03 November 2012 16:29:29(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,385
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

UserPostedImage


Ray,

Don't Marklin make a set with a similar loco to this and some carriages?

BR

Glenn


Hi Glenn,

As far as I'm aware Marklin have never made this loco.


Ray

My apologies it was this set I had in mind Link

BR

Glenn
Offline RayF  
#72 Posted : 03 November 2012 17:53:36(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,391
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Glenn,

Yes, a very different loco, but similar at first glance.
Ray (aka "the fool")

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Mark5  
#73 Posted : 04 November 2012 04:11:28(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I got this DR Br118 made by Piko for AC.

[img....]

Beautiful Ray. Really like that model... I have looking at a lot of DR stuff lately, thanks to everyone's great tips and links.
What will she pull Ray?

- Mark



Hi Mark,

I don't have any DR coaches, so I thought of maybe getting the Piko double decker coaches to make up this train:

[img.....img]


Ray and Mark,

Trix also make these double decker coaches but not in this livery, they are West German.

Here are a couple of photos of mine;

UserPostedImage

[img....img]

BR

Glenn



Ray and Glenn,

They are really gorgeous and more in line with "Marklin scale" (1:90) it seems.

I am wondering how much effort is would be to remove the decals and put appropriate DR decals, if one could find them somewhere
.... or do they you think they deviate too much from the prototype?

- Mark
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Online H0  
#74 Posted : 04 November 2012 07:44:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,838
Hi, Mark!
Originally Posted by: MM-MarkMontreal Go to Quoted Post
.... or do they you think they deviate too much from the prototype?
IMHO they are clearly different (doors in the middle of the coach are unusual for DR double stock coaches).
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
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Offline Western Pacific  
#75 Posted : 04 November 2012 14:18:28(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
You have been a member since:: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 767
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post



< cut >


Hi Glenn,

Your photos inspired me, so I had a look at ebay.de on Friday (October 26th) and found a set 43208 and a set 26509. The 43208 was mailed on Saturday and I got it yesterday (Monday) and today I got a notification from ebay stating that the 26509 has been shipped.

< cut >

Per



Per,

I am so glad I was able to inspire you. I first came across the set in an old catalogue whilst looking for something else and though that would look nice on my (as yet unbuilt BigGrin) layout.

I must say that reading through the threads in this Forum has introduced me to many items that I was unaware of, and in some cases I have gone on to buy them, and I think this is one of the great aspects to this great diverse Forum.

I hope you enjoy your set, and maybe post a few pics of it running around your layout.

Best Wishes

Glenn



Hi Glenn,

My current layout is just a test set-up - no landscape - and on top of that, it is partly covered to protect it from paint drops from renovation work being done close to it. I am painting doors and there are two more to be done before all fifteen in my house are done.
Why protect a layout without landscape?
The answer is simple; the C-track that I am using will be re-used on my "proper layout" in the future and I've learned from experience that if paint would drip, then it wouldn't fall on the plywood, but instead on the track; all in line with "Murphy's law". Cursing

However I managed to make a test run of the E18 locomotive 2 metres in one direction and then 2 metres back on the remote side of this test layout. If things go well, then there might be a chance that I can remove the protective covers and take some pictures at Christmas or New Year.

Per


Offline Western Pacific  
#76 Posted : 04 November 2012 15:00:54(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
You have been a member since:: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 767
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Mark,

Have you taken a look at PIKO DR bi-level trains?

I've tried to find an Internet page that describe it in English, but this in German may perhaps do.

This articulated train is listed in PIKO America's price list.

An alternative could perhaps be Rivarossi's DR era IV bi-level train. They also have two coach units era IV livery and era III. There is also a version of the four coach train in era IV livery of the Rostocker S-Bahn.


Per


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Offline Frankenbahner  
#77 Posted : 07 November 2012 12:54:09(UTC)
Frankenbahner

Germany   
Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 581
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
A model of the articulated bi-level cars now made by Rivarossi, was once made by an Eastern German manufacturer called Schicht. Schicht released these nicely detailed cars somewhere in the mid-1960s, when Märklin still presented tin-plate coaches which had no interior furnishings as new tooling.

Eventually, Schicht has been nationalized in the early 1970s (like many other small and middle-sized private firms in Eastern Germany in those days) and became part of a state-owned company called Prefo. The bi-level cars came in Prefo boxes then, and eventually in Piko boxes. After reunification, the different departments of Prefo have been re-privatized, and the toolings for the bi-level cars came to a new firm called Sachsenmodelle.

Sachsenmodelle continued these cars until the mid-1990s.

These Schicht/Prefo/Piko/Sachsenmodelle models of the articulated bi-level cars can still be found on swap markets and on Ebay. Okay, they are not as nicely detailed as the ones from Rivarossi. But nevertheless they still can be considered as wll-done models. If you regard the price, they are in fact a good alternative to the high-priced Rivarossi trains.

The only disadvantage: the Eastern German manufacturer only made the version which didn't have a cab, so push-and-pull operation is not possible (the current Rivarossi models do have a cab).

Regards,
Florian
H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
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Offline NS1200  
#78 Posted : 14 November 2012 20:12:35(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Mark,

This is an award winning German movie called Goodbye Lenin,with English subtitles.
It tells the story of a son who does not dare to tell his mother that the wall between the DDR where they live and the West has been opened up all of a sudden,he fears that her weak heart will not be able to cope with the shock.
As such he pretents the DDR is still there,even including an imitation of a DDR TV news broadcast.
He finds it increasingly difficult to keep up the facades.
Interesting movie for your project perhaps.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJb4efZcFUM

Cheers,
Paul.

Edited by user 14 November 2012 20:21:45(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Roman  
#79 Posted : 15 November 2012 05:12:10(UTC)
Roman


Joined: 19/09/2002(UTC)
Posts: 817
Hello all,
When searching for the DDR bi-level coaches, I would suggest an Ebay search for Schicht Doppelstockwagen. The two double car sets have either the DR marked end cars or the Deutsche Reichsbahn marked intermediate cars for a longer consist. Remember to check for diaphragms included between the cars. They aren't perfect for some but you have some real DDR relics to play with. I have the end cars displayed with a 3443.
Roman

Schicht Doppelstockwagen Pics
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Offline RetroTrains  
#80 Posted : 20 November 2012 03:14:33(UTC)
RetroTrains

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: MOUNT BARKER, South Australia
Hi guys, Thanks for all the info.
I have 2 rakes of DR coaches all of which are made by Schicht (I think).
They are excellent quality - the blue and cream ones having detailed interiors - and are also fitted with Marklin type axle sets made by ROCO (04464S).
The other set have suffered some cosmetic damage sadly, but they are very impressive coaches.
My question is: Can anyone suggest which Marklin loks would be most appropriate to haul these trains - ignoring any DB logos?
I have a collection which includes most Marklin Steam and Diesel Loks prior to 1986 or so.
I thought maybe the 03 - and I think I saw a 44 hauling some passenger coaches in one of the vids?
Was the V200 used for express trains in the DR? If so what colour(s) were they?
Also interested in the CSD logo on one coach if someone can help.
RetroTrains attached the following image(s):
P1120020.JPG
P1120021.JPG
P1120022.JPG
P1120019.JPG
RetroTrains, Mount Barker, Aust
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Offline Mark5  
#81 Posted : 23 November 2012 21:36:34(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Originally Posted by: RetroTrains Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys, Thanks for all the info.
I have 2 rakes of DR coaches all of which are made by Schicht (I think).
They are excellent quality - the blue and cream ones having detailed interiors - and are also fitted with Marklin type axle sets made by ROCO (04464S).
The other set have suffered some cosmetic damage sadly, but they are very impressive coaches.
[...?...]


Hello Retro,
Those are beautiful coaches. Thanks for sharing them and this all continues to inspire me with the project and research.
Do you know what years those coaches were used?

Unfortunately I have lots to learn yet and can't answer the question on the V200 with authority, but I think the DR version of the V200 was quite different in appearance. I seem to remember a link somewhere and will post if I find it again.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Thank you,
Mark
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline mike c  
#82 Posted : 23 November 2012 23:50:50(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,918
Location: Montreal, QC
Here is the DR V200 (Taigatrommel). After reunification, it was renumbered Class 120: http://www.railfaneurope.../historic/DR120/pix.html

The DB V 200 is here:
http://www.railfaneurope...toric/DB_V200_0/pix.html
http://www.railfaneurope...toric/DB_V200_1/pix.html

This page lists the changes in class assignation: http://www.railfaneurope...diesel/historic/pix.html

For more info on coaches, check here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC-Y-Wagen_(DR)

or here: http://www.amazon.ca/Int...sezugwagen/dp/3882557206

Mike C
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Offline Mark5  
#83 Posted : 16 December 2012 10:46:22(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Hello all,

I'm still looking for more actual histories of railway companies and people who worked for those companies in East and West Germany during Era III.

Anyone have anymore ideas? Would also like something comprehensive, but guessing that is unlikely to find in English.

- Mark
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Mark5  
#84 Posted : 05 February 2013 08:59:44(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Still cross-referencing all the great info in this thread.
If anyone has more to add, I would love to hear it.

Thanks All once again for all the useful info!
Mark
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

Offline Andrey  
#85 Posted : 05 February 2013 10:10:15(UTC)
Andrey

Russian Federation   
Joined: 03/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 466
Location: Moscow
Originally Posted by: Timothy Go to Quoted Post

The BR 120 DR has been called Taigatrommel (Taiga drum) because it was delivered from Russia without exhaust silencer. In the vast and less populated landscape of Russia, you do not really need that. That's why some love these locos because of their special sound. However, people living close to shunting yards or near railway lines started to complain and the DR started to order the locos with a silencer. The first (I think) 200 locos got a silencer later.


178 locos were delivered without silencers, they got silencers later. Those were silencers designed in GDR, later East German design silencers were introduced on other export versions of the M 62. Totally 378 engines were delivered for DR, 18 - for GDR industry.

Early engines, intended for the Soviet railways, were produced without silencers even after East German silencers became available. Some of them are still in use, run not only in the less populated landscapes, but also in the European part of the country, and they sound like hell! Scared

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Offline Mark5  
#86 Posted : 06 February 2013 19:43:48(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 746
Location: Montreal
Thanks Andrey,

I'd love to hear that! Seen any youtube videos that capture the sound?

Do you know in what year the locos without silencers (mufflers) were delivered?

It would be fabulous if someone could program a sound decoder to reproduce the original sound.

- Mark

Originally Posted by: Andrey Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Timothy Go to Quoted Post

The BR 120 DR has been called Taigatrommel (Taiga drum) because it was delivered from Russia without exhaust silencer. In the vast and less populated landscape of Russia, you do not really need that. That's why some love these locos because of their special sound. However, people living close to shunting yards or near railway lines started to complain and the DR started to order the locos with a silencer. The first (I think) 200 locos got a silencer later.


178 locos were delivered without silencers, they got silencers later. Those were silencers designed in GDR, later East German design silencers were introduced on other export versions of the M 62. Totally 378 engines were delivered for DR, 18 - for GDR industry.

Early engines, intended for the Soviet railways, were produced without silencers even after East German silencers became available. Some of them are still in use, run not only in the less populated landscapes, but also in the European part of the country, and they sound like hell! Scared




Interested in history of DB, DR and FS from about 1955 to 1965
Fan of signals and catenary; stations and yards. Is there anything else?

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Offline Andrey  
#87 Posted : 06 February 2013 20:45:47(UTC)
Andrey

Russian Federation   
Joined: 03/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 466
Location: Moscow
Hi Mark,

I'm happy that you liked. Smile

M 62s (Taigatrommel) were delivered to DR in 1966-1975. I guess at least locos delivered in 1960s were without mufflers.

Yes, M 62s have very special diesel sound. Didn't find the off-muffler version sounds on video, but I think even standard current version's sound is enough to understand.

DR BR 220 sound:


And also walk around the nice looking DR BR 220:
http://youtu.be/Yinb4Hj8IF8

M 62s are still in active use in Russia:

RZD M 62 in Karelia, pulling neglected passenger trains from nowhere to nowhere...


2 part units 2M 62s nowadays pulling heavy trains even inside Moscow!


Sorry, two last links are OT.

EDIT. Mark, I found what you were looking for.

Here is M 62 without muffler (currently Lithuanian loco):


How to recognize engine equipped with muffler or not?

Loco with muffler has a sort of superstructure on the roof, see the video of the DR BR 220 I attached.

Non-muffler locos have no superstructure, on some pictures 2 exhaust pipes can be visible.

For example, Roco TT model, representing early non-muffler version of the Sowiet railways:


Nowadays Roco produces DR BR 120 in HO with full sound. And it sounds very good! By the way, this is muffler version, see the roof.

Edited by user 07 February 2013 13:54:18(UTC)  | Reason: More info added

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