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Offline French_Fabrice  
#1 Posted : 22 May 2012 21:23:33(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hello fans,

I'm trying to program a Viessmann signal 4012 (3 aspects signal hp0/hp1/hp2) connected to a Viessmann 5224, with no luck Crying.
After pressing for 3 seconds on the "config" button, the red led on the 5224 device starts to blink slowly (as expected), and also the red led on the signal mast.
After that, I select from my CS2 the switch address 145, then 146. But the led doesn't stop blinking, as if the device hadn't understood the command sent by the CS2.

I'm stuckConfused . Various tries always give the same result : the programming cycle is not finished.

What am I missing ?

Anybody was successful to program such a device ?
I don't read german, only english. May the english translation of the 5224 user manual has flaws ?

Also, I don't have any clue if I must set a switching timing or special setup (I've used color light signal hp0/hp1/hp2 with 200 ms switching time) on the CS2 to a specific value ?

TIA
Fabrice

Edited by user 07 June 2012 21:58:21(UTC)  | Reason: changed header

Offline witzlerh  
#2 Posted : 22 May 2012 23:51:41(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
I know for the 4554 switch motor, I had the same problem with the CS2.
Set your TRACK setting to mfx only for the programming and then it may behave properly. Once programed, revert the TRACK setting back.
CS2, when set to all or DCC, mfx & fx, will first speaks in DCC, then mfx, then fx. The decoder, when in programming mode, will see the DCC first when it is looking for mfx and go on strike. If you hit the button 3-4 times to engage the DCC programming, it will take then too, but then you have a DCC device.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 23 May 2012 04:56:04(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
I haven't tried this process out as yet, but as I'm about to receive some 5224's, I guess I'm about to find out!
Offline French_Fabrice  
#4 Posted : 23 May 2012 05:57:54(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
I know for the 4554 switch motor, I had the same problem with the CS2.
Set your TRACK setting to mfx only for the programming and then it may behave properly. Once programed, revert the TRACK setting back.
CS2, when set to all or DCC, mfx & fx, will first speaks in DCC, then mfx, then fx. The decoder, when in programming mode, will see the DCC first when it is looking for mfx and go on strike. If you hit the button 3-4 times to engage the DCC programming, it will take then too, but then you have a DCC device.


Ah !

That may be the answer. I had the same idea, but chose the 'MM2' protocol only (without luck) then reverted back to auto.
I'll try your tip this week-end...

Many thanks

Cheers
fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#5 Posted : 26 May 2012 00:06:42(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hello,

Bad news : "mfx only" doesn't enhance the programming process. Crying Still stuck.Scared

Tomorrow, I'll purchase an other 5224, in case the previous one is bad.

But before, I'll try to program it with my old 6021+6040. No risk of mixing protocols...

I'll post the results, but for now I'm really disappointed.

Cheers
fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#6 Posted : 27 May 2012 22:21:12(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hello,

Programming is successful when using 6021+6040 BigGrin

After programming, I can use it with the CS2, as a MM2 device.

Still remaining to find out if it is really possible to program this device using a CS2 only;

It seems protocols are jamming when trying to program directly from the CS2. Also, I can't program this device as a DCC device with the CS2.Crying

Cheers
Fabrice

Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 27 May 2012 22:41:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,251
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Fabrice!
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Bad news : "mfx only" doesn't enhance the programming process.
One thing is sure: this signal does not understand mfx, therefore it must fail with "mfx only". AFAIK this setting is for loco commands only, there must be a different option for solenoids.
Solenoids only support MM and DCC (no mfx decoders for solenoids yet).

Solenoids must be set to MM protocol in the CS2 (at least addresses 145 and 146).
When the 5224 is in programming mode, just activate solenoid 145 (press its green or red button). The red light should stop flashing and the consecutive address (146) will be used automatically.

I don't have a 5224, I just checked the German manual.

With solenoids set to DCC, the config button must be pressed again (red light flashing quickly) and 5224 will listen to DCC commands.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#8 Posted : 27 May 2012 23:10:50(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Tom !

Yes you're right, "mfx" isn't the good answer.

When I programmed the 5224 with the couple 6021/6040, the device was following strictly what is described in the English version of the 5224 manual.BigGrin
When I tried with the CS2 only, the device didn't follow what is described in the manualConfused . Especially the 3 seconds press on the config button doesn't lead to the same result of the 6021/6040 (in the CS2 case, all leds behave as if the end of programming cycle has been reached - each led light up one after one, then all together, then the main led of the device blinks). That is very confusing !

Now, addresses 177 & 178 with MM(2?) protocol are programmed for the 4012 signal, and the device can be used normally with the CS2.

When programming with the 6021/6040, it takes only a few seconds to program. With the CS2, it never ends.

FYI, once the device is programmed with the 6021/6040, I've tried to configure the CS2 addresses 177 & 178 as a "color light signal hp0/hp1/hp2". When choosing this option, hp0 is fined, but hp1 and hp2 are swapped. After that, I've chosen the "scale color light signal hp0/hp1/hp2 - same as the 76393 signal- and this time hp1 and hp2 are correct.

I've tried to program some addresses as DCC (either 177/178 or addresses > 320) with the CS2, but without success. The 2nd press on the "config" button doesn't seem to be understood.

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 27 May 2012 23:40:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,251
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
When I tried with the CS2 only, the device didn't follow what is described in the manualConfused . Especially the 3 seconds press on the config button doesn't lead to the same result of the 6021/6040 (in the CS2 case, all leds behave as if the end of programming cycle has been reached - each led light up one after one, then all together
This could indicate that the signal module already received a solenoid command and learned "its" address (whatever address the CS2 may have sent).
Maybe that even prevents it from entering DCC programming mode.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline French_Fabrice  
#10 Posted : 31 May 2012 23:36:44(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hello folks !

One step ahead : I can now program the 5224 in DCC mode (almost systematically).

I've sent a mail to Viessmann and received an answer today. Unfortunately, the answer was unclear to me, maybe because my english level isn't good enough, but I also think the guy omit a few verbs in the sentences...

Anyway, what was clear enough was the DCC protocol is preferred to MM, so I've decided to try again the programming in DCC mode. You'll find below the description of what I did.

Context:
-CS2 60214, software update 2.0.1; track protocol (for the locos) set to "auto";
-CS2 plugged to my layout; no loco on the layout;
-solenoid addresses (for K83 turnouts, k84, 763xx signals) already configured : 1 to 48; 97 to 139; 257 to 260; 277 to 285; 290 to 293; all with MM2 protocol;

Test configuration:
-Viessmann signal 4011 (hp0/hp1)
-one new 5224 device; "bn" 5224 plug connected to common ground; "rt" 5224 plug connect to 60214 "red" line; "COM" 5224 plug connected to "rt" 5224 plug; no other 5224 plug connected.
-the 3 wires of the 4011 connected to "black" (diode), "green" and "red2" on the "hp" side of the 5224 DIL socket
-planned address to use : 384 (DCC mandatory, no other choice available), configured as a "scale color light signal hp0/1" with pulse duration = 200ms.

Steps:
-prepare the 5224 & 4011 as described above;
-before connecting the 5224 to the CS2, press the "STOP" bar (STOP leds on)
-connect the wired 5224 to the CS2 (brown & red wires)
-press the "STOP" bar again (STOP leds off) : the 5224 LED blinks once. It means it has detected power, not the beginning of the programming process
-now the tricky part, which may BigGrin or may not Cursing succeed (depends on your reaction velocity !) : press the "config" button at least 3 seconds UNTIL the 5224 led blinks ONCE. Immediately after the first blink, release the "config" button, press it again ONCE and release it immediately.
---> If you are successful, the 5224 led blinks quickly (many times per second) and you may press on the "384" button of the CS2 (either "red" or "green"). The signal behaves as described in the doc and finishes the programming cycle. After the programming cycle has ended (a few seconds after the pressure on the address 384), the signal can operates normally. ThumpUp
---> Symptoms for non entering successfully DCC programming mode :
a) the signal has ended the programming cycle (each signal led is turned on one after one, then all together, then all turned off), i.e. the pressure on the "config" button has been too long and the 2nd pressure hasn't been recorded Scared : Restart the cycle ("config" for 3 seconds...and so on)
b) the 5224 LED blinks for time to time (not when you press an address on the keyboard) with some kind of random pattern ThumbDown : Restart the cycle
c) the signal leds goes from red to green or green to red, or stays green with some kind of random pattern ThumbDown : Restart the cycle

Remarks:
-Once a successful DCC programming has been reached, you may reprogram a new DCC address quite easily (same process)
-I've also been able to program in MM mode only once (5224 led blinking slowly). After that, it was a real mess to reenter DCC programming mode. I still have to investigate to find out if it is possible to describe a systematic approach
-When the 5224 led blinks slowly in a continuous manner (approx. 1 blink per second), you are in MM programming mode. You have to select an address on the keyboard which is a) declared in MM2 mode b) in the range 1-320
-When the 5224 led blinks quickly in a continuous manner (approx. 3-5 blinks per second), you are in DCC programming mode. You have to select an address on the keyboard which is a) declared in DCC mode b) in the range 1-2048
-When using a standalone 6021+6040, the MM programming mode works like a charm and exactly as described in the doc. Not tried the couple 6021/6040 connected to the 60214 thru a 60128...

Hope this summary will help...Sorry not to describe a more systematic way, but it has been a bit difficult Crying Cursing Blushing Confused BigGrin
This week end, I'll try to program in DCC mode more complex signals, and use the "signal-bus".

Stay tuned if interested...

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline jeehring  
#11 Posted : 01 June 2012 02:33:29(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
I know for the 4554 switch motor, I had the same problem with the CS2.

CS2, when set to all or DCC, mfx & fx, will first speaks in DCC, then mfx, then fx. ....

Strange.....Confused ....I wonder where I've seen a different order : MFX first, then DCC, then Motorola....Confused ....Unsure

Offline French_Fabrice  
#12 Posted : 01 June 2012 08:10:01(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post

Strange.....Confused ....I wonder where I've seen a different order : MFX first, then DCC, then Motorola....Confused ....Unsure



The sequence you describe (mfx, dcc, fx) is , for instance, written in the 60962 manual, page 26.

HTH
Fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#13 Posted : 07 June 2012 21:57:03(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hello fans !

I've found the solution !

-> Do not use 4010->4018 signals + 5224 ThumbDown , but instead
-> Use 4720->4730 signals + 5229 ThumpUp . Programming works like a charm with a CS2, either in MM or DCC mode. The leds of these signals are surface-mounted leds, as M 763xx signals.

To summarize, programming the 5224 works with 6021, but not really with a CS2. It's still a real pain to have a successful programming with a Marklin Central Station II and a 5224. I had luck in my previous post to program one signal in DCC mode, but I can't do it again after 3 hours of attempts, so I give up.

So what solution is remaining with 4010->4018 signals:
-Use K84, but no smooth led transition, and in case of multi-aspect signals not obvious solution
-Try LDT module LS-DEC-DB-G: http://www.ldt-infocente...sh/products_cs2_mm_e.htm . Not experimented on my side, but I'll give a try soon...

I'm happy tonight BigGrin

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#14 Posted : 28 August 2012 12:52:51(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
I had the same issue programming my 5224 with the CS2. Unfortunately I don't have a 6040 keyboard to go with my 6021. I'll have to try disabling mfx and DCC on the CS2 (hopefully you can - at least you can disable DCC). If not, I'll have to try with my Ecos - I think M4 and DCC can be disabled with the Ecos.

I don't really want to have to use DCC with the 5224, as all of my other solenoid devices use MM.

BTW, don't forget that the first address you use for the 5224 needs to be an odd numbered address, and it needs to be the first address in a normal block of 4 that would be used with a K83 - i.e. 1-4, 5-8, etc. And, you can't use any of the other addresses in a block of 4 for other signals - the next signal address needs to be the first address in the next block of 4 addresses.
Offline French_Fabrice  
#15 Posted : 28 August 2012 13:13:31(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
I hope you'll be successful !

FYI, I've used a LS-DEC-DB module from LDT to manage 4017 & 4018 signals. Works fine.

Good luck
Fabrice
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#16 Posted : 29 August 2012 12:57:28(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
I've had some limited success. As I suspected, the Ecos allows you to disable or enable any or all of the 4 protocols it supports - Selectrix, DCC, M4 (mfx) and Motorola. Therefore it was an easy process to enable the Ecos for Motorola only. This then enabled me to program the 5224 with a suitable digital address.

However, I haven't quite managed to fully configure my 4012 signal for Hp0/Hp1/Hp2. I can set it up for Hp0/Hp1 OK, but can't seem to get it programmed for all 3, despite following the instructions to the letter.

More experimentation is required!

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#17 Posted : 30 August 2012 12:28:48(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Managed to get the 4012 programmed OK. It only seemed to program correctly for that particular signal when I had the 5224 Hp0 and Hp1 ports bridged to track brown - light sequence is now switching correctly.

And of course, to properly test the programming, all bridged port wiring needs to be removed first, something they don't say in the 5224 manual, but something I found out from experience, and had it confirmed by a German language post in the Viessmann forums!
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 23 July 2014 13:35:26(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
The other thing to make sure of when programming the 5224 is that you have the connections (B and 0) to the Central Station around the right way (Ecos/CS1 and CS2 are reversed compared to each other), otherwise programming will not work.
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