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Offline French_Fabrice  
#1 Posted : 15 May 2012 22:06:37(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 773
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Märklin & Rocrail fans !

I want to share with you the successful setup of my Turntable with Rocrail (manual mode and some bits of automatic mode regarding the TT).
The reason I create this topic is that it's sometimes very unclear in the Rocrail docs (for the TT I mean). I've read many times the docs (Rocrail and TT), read the Rocrail forum, and finally found bits by bits a way to setup an acceptable running configuration without too much work. If this post can help those of you interested with Rocrail, that's my pleasure. Please note that I still have to conduct more tests and use different configurations, but for now it's ok. My layout is done exclusively with K tracks, so maybe some of my choices are related to the way electric connections are done with K tracks (mmm... a bit tricky Bored )
This post is not a full "howto" as I don't have enough time. Maybe in the future I'll try to extend it. Also notice this post is not a substitute to the Rocrail wiki. Please read the Rocrail wiki.

Turntable configuration example :

  • 1*7286 Märklin Turntable with its 7686 decoder
  • One entrance track
  • Six consecutive sidings: Starting clockwise up to bottom: track1, track2, track3, track4, track5, track6. The opposite of entrance track is track5. The tracks are programmed in the CS2 following the standard process described in the 7286 booklet. Addressing of the TT start at address 225, i.e. position to track1 will use "229 red", track 2 will use "229 green" and so on...


Blocks configuration :
  • Turntable bridge : blockName = B36
  • Entrance track : blockName = B28
  • track 1 : blockName = B37
  • track 2 : blockName = B38
  • track 3 : blockName = B39
  • track 4 : blockName = B40
  • track 5 : blockName = B41
  • track 6 : blockName = B42


Sensors configuration :
  • Turntable bridge : r50 on Vie5233
  • Entrance track : r49 on Vie5233
  • track1 : r51 on Vie5233
  • track2 : r52 on Vie5233
  • track3 : r53 on Vie5233
  • track4 : r54 on Vie5233
  • track5 : r55 on Vie5233
  • track6 : r56 on Vie5233
  • additional sensor : "bridge position reached" from the feedback plug "green light" of the 7686; connected to "r41" on S88/Vie5217


Summary picture
UserPostedImage


1) Do you need to alter the Turntable ?
Quick answer : not necessary. You can use the original decoder as is, but it will provide only one sensor (occupancy) for the bridge. With one sensor (that's my own configuration), you'll have to adjust speed blocks and timers. It's better to have loco decoders which allows very slow motion. If not, automatic mode will be difficult. If you want more than one sensor for the bridge, then you'll have to alter the tracks on the bridge (I didn't choose this option). Also, you can use light indicators of the 7686 for feedback functions (see above "additional sensor")

2) Do you need additional hardware (I mean more than the 7686 decoder) ?
Answer : Yes. At least a S88 decoder (M 6088/60880/Viessmann 5217) and possibly a current sensor decoder (i.e Viessmann 5233 and optionally Viessmann 5234). In my case, I don't have a lot of room for my layout, so track length is very limited. With a limited track length the easiest way in my opinion is to use a Vie.5233, because you have only to provide the "B" wire for each block.

3) To provide only "B" wire without using insulator, I've modified a bit the original hardware of the spoke tracks: I removed the center contacts of each spoke track, and it's the only alteration I did. Of course this is not mandatory, you can use contact tracks (one left or right hand-side rail cut) or reeds connected to S88 inputs.


UserPostedImage


4) All "0" and "L" sockets of the 7686 decoder are respectively connected to the corresponding wires ("ground" and "light"). The "B" bridge socket of the 7686 decoder is connected to r50 (Vie 5233). The other "B" socket is connected to the "B" of a 60174 booster. Note: you may also connect the "L" socket to the same "B" (booster) (see post http://www.marklin-users...gh-Viessmann-device.aspx)

5) Finally, I wanted each loco stored on track1 to track6 to be powered continuously (lights up, smoke generator on). For that, "B" connection is provided thru r51 to r56 via the Vie.5233, but when the bridge is not facing a track the ground ("0") is not provided. That's the reason why I added a ground connector for each sidings.


Rocrail turntable configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
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Rocrail B36 (bridge block) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
note the slow speed (5%)
UserPostedImage
wait 10000 ms before setting speed to 0 when entering B36 from the "+" side
UserPostedImage
wait 8000 ms before setting speed to 0 when entering B36 from the "-" side (asymmetric timers, depends on the loco pickup shoe position)


3 examples of sidings block configuration.
Rocrail B37 (Märklin track 1 / Rocrail track 8) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
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Rocrail B41 (Märklin track 5 / Rocrail track 0) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
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Rocrail B42 (Märklin track 6 / Rocrail track 46) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
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A few routes configuration shots. For example, going from B28 to B42 uses 2 routes : B28-B36 and B36-B42.
UserPostedImage
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And the reality:
Entrance track with connection to sensor "r49":
UserPostedImage

The TT with bridge sensor "r50" and "bridge position reached" sensor "r41" :
UserPostedImage

The 6 sidings: M track 1 (upper track) to M track 6 (right track) with connection to sensor "r51" to "r56"
UserPostedImage

Each sidings has a ground connector (see "5)")
UserPostedImage

Final shot:
UserPostedImage


I'll try to provide a recorded video of automatic processing in the future (have to read the manual of my camera before ! Confused )

Please take into account this a very quick "howto". It is far from complete and I still have a lot of work to fine tune things, but I hope you'll find basic information on how to configure a Marklin TT with Rocrail.

All the best BigGrin
Fabrice

Edited by user 18 June 2014 15:15:05(UTC)  | Reason: re-uploaded pictures

thanks 5 users liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#2 Posted : 18 June 2014 15:18:15(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 773
Location: Lyon, France
Hi,
I've reloaded all the pictures today, as they vanished from the host.
I hope having put them back in the right order.
Cheers
fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline ecastrog  
#3 Posted : 04 May 2015 22:10:40(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Quito
Hi Fabrice

I hope you are doing ok!

I stepped into this post from you, because I am having a little trouble setting up my 7286 Marklin turntable to make it work with iTrain

I already managed to program the turntable with the 7687 decoder (kind of tricky but at the end did it!!BigGrin )

Now I have the problem that iTrain needs an occupation feedback for the turntable (which needs to be the actual bridge of the TT), and also an "end state feedback", which I already found out that is the "green light" (by reading your helpful post) of the 7687 decoder.

Reading your post, here is the question: Is it ok to connect the "B" bridge socket for the 7687 to one input of an s88? (I see you use Vie 5233, but I don't have those and it seems they do the opposite of s88??Confused )


I hope I made myself clear of what I need.....

Best regards,
Esteban
Offline ecastrog  
#4 Posted : 05 May 2015 17:17:14(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fabrice

I hope you are doing ok!

I stepped into this post from you, because I am having a little trouble setting up my 7286 Marklin turntable to make it work with iTrain

I already managed to program the turntable with the 7687 decoder (kind of tricky but at the end did it!!BigGrin )

Now I have the problem that iTrain needs an occupation feedback for the turntable (which needs to be the actual bridge of the TT), and also an "end state feedback", which I already found out that is the "green light" (by reading your helpful post) of the 7687 decoder.

Reading your post, here is the question: Is it ok to connect the "B" bridge socket for the 7687 to one input of an s88? (I see you use Vie 5233, but I don't have those and it seems they do the opposite of s88??Confused )


I hope I made myself clear of what I need.....

Best regards,
Esteban



Hi again. Update

I tried last night to connect the B socket of the 7687 decoder, to an s88 input, but unfortunately doesn't work. When I do, the occupancy state is always "ON". It seems I have some kind of problem with the issolation......

BTW I use C track.
Of course I have K-C addaptors for the turntable spokes!

Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#5 Posted : 05 May 2015 17:28:28(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 773
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice

Offline ecastrog  
#6 Posted : 05 May 2015 17:34:45(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice




Thank you very much Fabrice.

I will go with your recommendation. I'll buy the Viessmann 5233 and try to get this working. Then I'll let you know the results!! (hopefully good...Blushing )

Regards,
Esteban
Offline Ross  
#7 Posted : 06 May 2015 22:30:23(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Fabrice,

I'm concerned that this statement is false. I monitor the centre rail on many parts of my layout without any problems, see links below.

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
.........................
Cheers
Fabrice



Centre rail contacts

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~.../rms/pdf/s88_contact.pdf

Thanks for the details on the turntable with Rocrail.

For Esteban and others please read the following.

Programming the turntable with TrainController

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~...urntable_programming.pdf

Turntable using analog control

http://members.ozemail.c...table_analog_control.pdf

I hope you find the information useful.
Ross
Offline French_Fabrice  
#8 Posted : 07 May 2015 06:12:10(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 773
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Ross,

Thank you for the correction about my wrong statement.

But I don't understand why a "B" line can generate some detection on a S88.
May I ask you to explain it ?

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline Ross  
#9 Posted : 07 May 2015 07:19:29(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Fabrice,

The "B" connection is more negative than ground (masse).

On Page 87 of the 0303 manual it states the following

The track detection module is able to evaluate all impulses and continuous contacts which have a ground component
(the potential of the outer rails or the 'T' socket on the s88 module). Positive voltage is not evaluated by the track detection module.

On page 181 of the 0308 manual you will find the following specs.
Input voltage +/- 40 volts
Voltage threshold +2.5 volts
Voltages <2.5 volts: contact activated
Voltages >2.5 volts: contact not activated.
Sensitivity: input resistance of approx 50k ohms to ground.

It's is safe to use with the s88. I have been doing it this way for more years than I have fingers and toes. BigGrin

Edited by user 07 May 2015 07:45:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ross
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Ross
Offline French_Fabrice  
#10 Posted : 07 May 2015 20:26:43(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 773
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Ross,

Thanks for your reply!

I've reread my 0304 manual (French version of 0303) and page 90 it is stated (roughly translated) that "...the center rail has always a negative part the S88 is able to detect...". So, I've learned today an important thing about feedback detection !

Do you know a documentation or a set of links that would explain in a deeper manner all the waveform signals available at the CS2 output ?

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#11 Posted : 07 May 2015 20:53:48(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 773
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice




Thank you very much Fabrice.

I will go with your recommendation. I'll buy the Viessmann 5233 and try to get this working. Then I'll let you know the results!! (hopefully good...Blushing )

Regards,
Esteban


Esteban,

If you see the reply from Ross, then I was clearly wrong when stating that S88 wouldn't be able to be used with a "B" socket.
But all I describe in the first post is still true, and using a current consumption detector like Vie 5233 runs correctly.

To be honest, I don't remind very well how I came to such a conclusion (It was 3 years ago). I remind I did some (but not many) tests, and finally I reached my goal quickly using a 5233 than other things (I was certainly willing to implement such a device!). As my turntable is now stuck and decorated in the layout, I have no easy way to experiment other solutions.

Ross proposal is another alternative. You now have the choice.

All the best
Fabrice
Offline Ross  
#12 Posted : 07 May 2015 23:25:55(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Fabrice,

Life's all about learning. I'm glad I was able to help.

I don't have information on the CS2 but getting waveform signal information will be difficult.

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Ross,

Thanks for your reply!

I've reread my 0304 manual (French version of 0303) and page 90 it is stated (roughly translated) that "...the center rail has always a negative part the S88 is able to detect...". So, I've learned today an important thing about feedback detection !

Do you know a documentation or a set of links that would explain in a deeper manner all the waveform signals available at the CS2 output ?

Cheers
Fabrice


Ross
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