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Offline jvuye  
#1 Posted : 12 April 2012 19:48:44(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hello all!
6 months agao, my 12 years old Grandson who's crazy about Märklin's 3021 asked me: "Opa, could you build me a two-motor 3021?"
All you need, as a Grandpa, for a challenge in life is a 12 years old Grandson with an infinite ability to come up with challenges!
After thinking this through for a while, the answer was: "Yes, I just need two donors chassis, motors...and I'll do the rest!"
Sure enough, a few months later, two 3021 chassis sent from Munich were showing up on my doorstep!

The Mad Doctor went to work (Nyuknyuknyuk!!Scared ), nip and tuck, and here's the results (see below)

It's pretty powerful, as you might have expected: weighing in at about 800g, it pulls easily 40x 4-axles cars on a 3% slope, on R3 C-track loops.

But it was a tight fit to cramp it all in the original body.
Most interesting to me is the (re-)use of an old Märklin board (found in a 1997 A-B-A F7 unit..) and use a 6080 decoder to feed two old style motors (Again, my Grandson loves them!)

Now he's asked whether I could build a 3-motor , 3 bogies articulated version.
That kid is just as crazy as me! Cool
As they say in California: The acorn never falls far from the oaktree! BigGrin
jvuye attached the following image(s):
lite2frankensteinsV200.jpg
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline dntower85  
#2 Posted : 12 April 2012 20:27:41(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Nice ThumpUp
Please show us how you mounted the pickup shoe.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline Markus Schild  
#3 Posted : 12 April 2012 20:43:58(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Jacques,

Why three motors when you could get four?

UserPostedImage
Nuclear-powered Locomotive with gas-cooled reactor from "DIE LOKOMOTIVTECHNIK", 01/1957.

Complete scan can be found here:

http://www.drehscheibe-f....php?17,4612367,page=all

Regards

Markus
Offline elfangor103  
#4 Posted : 12 April 2012 20:45:46(UTC)
elfangor103

United States   
Joined: 28/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 288
Location: New York
Can you post a video. PLZBigGrin BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Newly Started Analog Z Layout
Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 13 April 2012 02:33:53(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Jacques,

You're lucky you've got only one grandson BigGrin

Yes, how did you fit the slider ? ThumpUp

and a further question:

How did you put the 2 motor chassis together ? ThumpUp
and an other question:
What's the green plate doing in the middle ? Unsure

One of these days I'll get hold of micro DC motors and see if I can add 4 or 6 motors into a loco as per prototype.
There is a company in Poland, the sell micro motors but I haven't looked at it properly how big or small they are.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline rjftrains  
#6 Posted : 13 April 2012 04:29:30(UTC)
rjftrains


Joined: 14/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 58
Location: Katonah, NY
I'm not trying to steal Jacque's thunder here, but to answer the last question: the green board in the center is the circuit board that Marklin used in their F7 A-B-A two-motor train sets. The board has beefed-up transistors that allow the single decoder (designed for single motors) to provide ample power to drive two motors without over-heating. A very clever (and successful) way for Marklin to have been able to use a single decoder to power two motors and keep everything running nice and cool. I believe the Marklin part number for this is 624290.
Robert Frowenfeld
RJFtrains@aol.com
www.RJFtrains.com
914-232-5546
Offline GlennM  
#7 Posted : 13 April 2012 09:57:15(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,875
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Awesome conversion Jacques, the 3021 is one of my favourates and your conversion looks great ThumpUp



Wait hold on I can feel a bit of Marklin marketing coming on.............................................


Marklin proudly presents.........the DR Frankenstein range of 'pimp my ride' locos.......BigGrin BigGrin



Glenn
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline Markus Schild  
#8 Posted : 13 April 2012 10:08:29(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

In the Märklin-Magazin 1/1969 an instruction for this conversion was published. At least the sketches should be understandable even for non-German speakers

Regards

Markus
Markus Schild attached the following image(s):
mm-1969-01-28.jpg
mm-1969-01-29.jpg
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Markus Schild
Offline river6109  
#9 Posted : 13 April 2012 11:24:38(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Markus,

INTERESTING.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline jvuye  
#10 Posted : 13 April 2012 11:53:32(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hi Markus, John and all
Never saw that 1969 article (my MM collection starts in the mid 70's..) , but seems to be generally the same idea!
I basically used the same trick for the pick up.

For the block connecting the two halves I used the following drawing...(pict 1)
The block adds about 150 grams to the loco's weight...


And here is how it looks after being assembled (pict 2)


The decoder+ power booster installation, which required to re-locate the big capacitor so that it would take less space (pict 3)
jvuye attached the following image(s):
lite8frankensteinsV200.jpg
lite6frankensteinsV200.jpg
lite7frankensteinsV200.jpg
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline ozzman  
#11 Posted : 13 April 2012 13:58:55(UTC)
ozzman

Australia   
Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
A real piece of craftsmanship and ingenuity, and thanks for sharing. How long did it take?

And now for the real challenge. Put two motors into an 8820, the Z scale version of the 3021....
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
Offline jvuye  
#12 Posted : 13 April 2012 14:08:24(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: ozzman Go to Quoted Post
A real piece of craftsmanship and ingenuity, and thanks for sharing. How long did it take?

And now for the real challenge. Put two motors into an 8820, the Z scale version of the 3021....


Hi!

Took about 8 hours including concept and sketching, fabrication, assembly and testing. (but that includes coffee-, lunch- and pee-breaks!!RollEyes )

For the Z-gauge conversion, it's too late for me now: my eyes won't do anymore, HO is the lower limit of my capabilities!BigGrin

Cheers

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline Janne75  
#13 Posted : 13 April 2012 22:05:01(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Really nice work! I have many 3021 models and this is really interesting variation. Is there any issues to get these two same motors synchronised together. I mean if they have very slight difference in running rpm etc. ?

This two motor version must pull the wagons very well. In an normal 3021 model there is four traction tires in motor bogie. When you have two motor bogies, then there must be some wheels without these traction tires to get it grounded. How many traction tires are used? I'm sorry if that reads in the MM article, but I just downloaded that and have not read it yet.

Thumbs up to you and your technically demanding grand son!

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline jvuye  
#14 Posted : 14 April 2012 08:00:35(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Really nice work! I have many 3021 models and this is really interesting variation. Is there any issues to get these two same motors synchronised together. I mean if they have very slight difference in running rpm etc. ?

This two motor version must pull the wagons very well. In an normal 3021 model there is four traction tires in motor bogie. When you have two motor bogies, then there must be some wheels without these traction tires to get it grounded. How many traction tires are used? I'm sorry if that reads in the MM article, but I just downloaded that and have not read it yet.

Thumbs up to you and your technically demanding grand son!

Janne


Thanks Janne!

Good ouestion ThumpUp about traction tires and synchronisation: the two go together in fact!

I did indeed a lot of trials (...and errors!): 2 tires / bogie either on the same axle, or one/ axle in diagonal, and finally I settled for four tires on one of the bogies and none on the other.

There was little difference in tractive power (with a slight advantage to the "diagonal" solution) but in terms of electric power pick up reliability, the final choice clearly showed a higher reliability.

In addition, there is no issue with a motor running (slightly) faster or slower: the one without tires will slip, with no adverse effect on the mechanism.
(If anything, it "cleans" the pick up wheels!!)

Strangely, a slight slipping of the "bare" wheels is only noticeable with the loco running light and slowly!

Of course this is using an un-regulated C80 decoder with old style LFCM motors...no "hard" regulation possible! BigGrin

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Janne75  
#15 Posted : 14 April 2012 15:02:28(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi Jacques,

That was a good solution with four traction tires in one bogie and other without them. So this one is more like a real V200 diesel as the real one has also two motors. This one must be a very good puller as it has 4 drive axles = 8 wheels AWD! :)

I have an green E40 from an digital starter set and it pulled 100 wagons when I tested it last weekend (24530 curves). Four traction tires and weight only around 400 grams... Every crocodile I have did not pull those as they had traction problems. Closest to E40 was an V221 from an other starter set, but it weights over 600 grams.

As I have two of my 3021 models that are not really so rare or like new (from around 1965), it would be interesting to do something similar to them. Also it would be nice to do same things to two of my 3034 blue E41 024 E-loks, that are not my vitrine models. Other of those have problem with mechanical reversing unit, so this would be good way to "use" it for modifying. I have one really mint original 3034 for a vitrine model. An two motor 3034 E41 would be also an really good and powerful puller!

Who does that two motor E-lok first?

Best regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline jvuye  
#16 Posted : 17 April 2012 11:09:41(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post


Who does that two motor E-lok first?

Best regards,
Janne


You could basically use the exact same solution.
But there will probably be a problem with space for the decoder and the booster PCB.
Maybe a better solution to do a 5-pole conversion (uses less power) and use a Lokpilot V4.0 decoder which has enough juice.
Installing the pick up may require some milling in one of the power bogies, but nothing too hard, I'm sure.
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline hennabm  
#17 Posted : 17 April 2012 21:02:44(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,038
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi Jacques

What a great conversionThumpUp

Daft question No1 - is it digital and question No2 (if the answer is yes to 1) - would there be enough room in the body to make a none digital one?

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline Janne75  
#18 Posted : 19 April 2012 08:29:19(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post


Who does that two motor E-lok first?

Best regards,
Janne


You could basically use the exact same solution.
But there will probably be a problem with space for the decoder and the booster PCB.
Maybe a better solution to do a 5-pole conversion (uses less power) and use a Lokpilot V4.0 decoder which has enough juice.
Installing the pick up may require some milling in one of the power bogies, but nothing too hard, I'm sure.
Cheers


Hi Jacques and all,

I took both those my "extra" 3021 models that I could "sacrifice" for a test drive on digital track with 6021. I wanted to test how high rpm these analog 3021 motors will spin when just putting the pick-up shoe to the track and holding the motor bogie up. These two run at very different rpm. Analog locomotives will run at quite high rpm when putting them to digital track (with 6021 speed knob in zero position), so this kind of test will easily show how similar these two motors/locomotives would be for this kind of double motor conversion.

So it is best to find one 3021 that is more similar than one of these to have two as near as possible equal motor bogies. When I looked those 3021 closely it was easy to find out why this particular model is an very good one for this kind of conversion. Even the motor bogie has threads for current pick-up shoe. Also there is more space than in an 3034. I made an similar test with my two 3034 and the results was the same. Other motor spinned at much higher rpm than the other...Huh

I have not translated that text from MM, but if I do something similar to my two 3021´s I will just cut the frame so that I have to motor bogie frame ends and then connect these to exactly the right lenght frame than std 3021. Because there is an difference how the motor bogie is supported than the other. Same thing with the two 3034´s, but to this double motor project an thread has to be made for current pick-up shoe installation. 3021 is easier, because there already is that thread and more space. Both of these models are good for this kind of conversion as the locomotive ends are similar (front and rear), so space for motor bogie is not a problem.

Best regards,

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline jvuye  
#19 Posted : 19 April 2012 15:27:46(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hello Janne and all
Yes I agree, the 3034 would be just a little more complicated.
But with the machines I have at my disposal (lathe, milling machines, the whole range of thread cutters, etc.) cutting threads and making almost any custom parts is not very hard, just takes time and a little planning to obtain the desired result with the required precision.
I looked at the 3034 Motor bogie, and I know it is possible to mill some space to install a pickup properly.
With Märklin locos, the gears are on the side, leaving all the material in the middle to install the pick up... of course one should never mill that deep that the axles fall off!!Blink LOL
I have done this type of surgery quite often...this is why they call me the "Mad Doctor"!Scared Sneaky
The next challenge of that magnitude is to (re-)create a set of gears to bring back a beautiful old TRIX BLS Ae 4/4 loco to life, with a Faulhaber motor and flywheel.
If you guys are interested, I'll post a little report when that job is completed...but don't hold your breath, there is a long line of patients before that one waiting for TLC in the waiting room!Wink
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline jvuye  
#20 Posted : 19 April 2012 15:34:12(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: hennabm Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jacques

What a great conversionThumpUp

Daft question No1 - is it digital and question No2 (if the answer is yes to 1) - would there be enough room in the body to make a none digital one?

Mike


Mike,

Just looking at the picture should tell you: the "mouse piano" is a give-away: yes, it's digital!BigGrin

An analog version would in fact be simpler!
In that case the inversion relay takes less space than the old generation electronics used here.
Mechanically identical, elctrically much simpler.

In general, with a little invention and a lot of patience, everything is possible. (the second ingredient being predominant!)

Does that answer the questions?

Cheers



Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Hackcell  
#21 Posted : 09 November 2014 18:06:37(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Hello Jacques,

Very interesting conversion! I was wondering if you have tried to install a newer decoder to that machine. I'm asking because I want to install two engines into a 3061-4061 consist and control it with a single decoder, however I stil can't get an answer/hint of how to control the two motors using a single decoder.

Thank you.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#22 Posted : 09 November 2014 22:29:58(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Reminds me of the 3021 'Taxi' that someone posted a link to on the B&G some time back ...

As to a better multiple motor solution, how do Marklin do it in the newer A-B sets such as the California Zephyr set they did 2-3 years or so ago? Surely they didn't use the same plate as the used with the 3649! Confused

Offline foumaro  
#23 Posted : 10 November 2014 09:02:39(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Hello Jacques,

Very interesting conversion! I was wondering if you have tried to install a newer decoder to that machine. I'm asking because I want to install two engines into a 3061-4061 consist and control it with a single decoder, however I stil can't get an answer/hint of how to control the two motors using a single decoder.

Thank you.


I converted 3462 F7 Alaska and 3662 F7 Santa Fe with two 60941 marklin motors and one 60946 marklin decoder,the same conversion for both of them.They are running perfect.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by foumaro
Offline biedmatt  
#24 Posted : 10 November 2014 12:44:53(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
A very lucky grandson.
Nice work Jacques.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline jvuye  
#25 Posted : 10 November 2014 13:50:36(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
A very lucky grandson.
Nice work Jacques.

Thanks.
In the meantime I am working on the next monster..
Stay tuned!

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline Hackcell  
#26 Posted : 10 November 2014 18:51:43(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Hello Jacques,

Very interesting conversion! I was wondering if you have tried to install a newer decoder to that machine. I'm asking because I want to install two engines into a 3061-4061 consist and control it with a single decoder, however I stil can't get an answer/hint of how to control the two motors using a single decoder.

Thank you.


I converted 3462 F7 Alaska and 3662 F7 Santa Fe with two 60941 marklin motors and one 60946 marklin decoder,the same conversion for both of them.They are running perfect.


Both connected to the same output? What's the current consumption?

Thanks!
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline foumaro  
#27 Posted : 11 November 2014 09:28:47(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Hello Jacques,

Very interesting conversion! I was wondering if you have tried to install a newer decoder to that machine. I'm asking because I want to install two engines into a 3061-4061 consist and control it with a single decoder, however I stil can't get an answer/hint of how to control the two motors using a single decoder.

Thank you.


I converted 3462 F7 Alaska and 3662 F7 Santa Fe with two 60941 marklin motors and one 60946 marklin decoder,the same conversion for both of them.They are running perfect.


Both connected to the same output? What's the current consumption?

Thanks!


I will ask the master who did the conversion and i will answer you.I will try to take photos of both units open and i will send the photos in your email.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by foumaro
Offline Hackcell  
#28 Posted : 11 November 2014 18:40:08(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Hello Jacques,

Very interesting conversion! I was wondering if you have tried to install a newer decoder to that machine. I'm asking because I want to install two engines into a 3061-4061 consist and control it with a single decoder, however I stil can't get an answer/hint of how to control the two motors using a single decoder.

Thank you.


I converted 3462 F7 Alaska and 3662 F7 Santa Fe with two 60941 marklin motors and one 60946 marklin decoder,the same conversion for both of them.They are running perfect.


Both connected to the same output? What's the current consumption?

Thanks!


I will ask the master who did the conversion and i will answer you.I will try to take photos of both units open and i will send the photos in your email.


Hi Foumaro,

Got your email! It would be great if you can get me the pictures and further info.

Thanks!!!
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline foumaro  
#29 Posted : 11 November 2014 19:51:18(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
I will do it as soon as possible.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by foumaro
Offline foumaro  
#30 Posted : 15 November 2014 04:31:49(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece



The first photo is the front A unit,the second photo is the B unit with the decoder and the speaker and the third photo is the last A unit of the loco.I hope all these will help.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by foumaro
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