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Offline French_Fabrice  
#1 Posted : 17 August 2011 00:51:19(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Marklin fans,

My layout currently use only CSII (60214) to power and manage the 76xxx signals, and all is fine.

I've recently got a Connect-6021 (60218) to allow my old Control Unit (6021) coupled to a Control80f (6036) to provide more manual control.

When reading the booklet provided with the Connect-6021, it's clearly stated that the brown/red wires from the 6021 MUST NOT be connected to the tracks. So OK, I won't use the 6021 to provide more power for the locos (like a booster).
But (before frying the hardware) I'd like to know if it is possible to power the 76xxx signals thru the brown/red wires from the 6021 (of course, without connecting the 6021 red/brown wires to the 60214 red/brown wires) ? Huh

Your advices are welcome.

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline kbvrod  
#2 Posted : 17 August 2011 01:15:52(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
Fabrice,on my old layout(IB+6021+6040) I used the the 6021 as a Booster for my turnout motors and Veissmann signals.I was still was able to use it as 3rd control(throttle) for loks,...
The 6021(red/brown) was NOT wired to the layout,only connected to the IB.
Have a dedicated transformer/power supply for every CU and booster.

Dr D
Offline French_Fabrice  
#3 Posted : 17 August 2011 11:26:54(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hi,
Just to be sure, a small drawing of my understanding :
schema

So, the wiring described by "1" and "2" are correct and won't fry anything ("1" and "2" ARE NOT connected together).

About the additional wiring described by "3" ("3" refers to 76xxx signals connected to "2"), anybody has an experience ?
My feeling is that it should be ok as 76xxx have an embedded decoder, but still unsure...

Thanks to all
Fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#4 Posted : 27 August 2011 22:40:59(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hi All,

Just FYI, I've tried the wiring described in my previous post ("1"+"2"+"3" wired as described).

It works perfectly with K83 decoders & 76xxx signals. BigGrin
Still 2/3 of the wiring of my layout to refactor Bored

Cheers,
Fabrice
Offline kbvrod  
#5 Posted : 27 August 2011 22:55:21(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Fabrice,all,
SWEET!BigGrin

Dr Dirt
Offline French_Fabrice  
#6 Posted : 28 August 2011 23:06:21(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hi All,

Well, things are not so simple...

When I operate manually, all is OK.

But when I connect the layout to the software (Rocrail) via the ethernet cable of the 60214, I note some latencies in the switches then all becomes locked ??? Confused . I also notice some strange sounds when operating K84 as if the power was not cut off when depressing the button ??? All devices are programmed with a 200ms pulse. I've not changed anything in the software since last time it was running OK. The only difference is now all electromagnetic devices are powered thru a separate circuit connected to the 6021/6002.

I'm stuck for tonight.

A last question: Is it allowed to connect the two grounds circuits together (connect the grounds of "1" and "2/3" together)?

Next step will be to rewire the 76xxx signals to "1" and check if I get some enhancement or not.

Cheers
fabrice
Offline kbvrod  
#7 Posted : 28 August 2011 23:19:39(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Fabrice,all,

>Well, things are not so simple...<

They will be,in the end.Wink

>When I operate manually, all is OK.<

From the keyboard?

>But when I connect the layout to the software (Rocrail) via the ethernet cable of the 60214, I note some latencies in the switches then all becomes locked ??? Confused . I also notice some strange sounds when operating K84 as if the power was not cut off when depressing the button ??? All devices are programmed with a 200ms pulse. I've not changed anything in the software since last time it was running OK. The only difference is now all electromagnetic devices are powered thru a separate circuit connected to the 6021/6002.<

Maybe one of our software experts can help.
This maybe(will be)a pain but can you test each separately and then look in the software as to why it works or does not?

>A last question: Is it allowed to connect the two grounds circuits together (connect the grounds of "1" and "2/3" together)?<

There was a problem with common ground but it shouldn't be.

Next step will be to rewire the 76xxx signals to "1" and check if I get some enhancement or not.

Best of luck,Dr D
Offline French_Fabrice  
#8 Posted : 28 August 2011 23:36:17(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
One last information.

The 6002 transformer has two pairs of yellow/brown connectors.

One pair is connected to the yellow/brown of the 6021.
I use the other pair of yellow/brown of the 6002 as a light circuit (only 8 lamps connected for now), but the ground of the light circuit is connected to the ground of "1"... Is it ok or not ?
UserPostedImage

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline efel  
#9 Posted : 28 August 2011 23:47:55(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post

A last question: Is it allowed to connect the two grounds circuits together (connect the grounds of "1" and "2/3" together)?


Hi,
You gave the answer in your 1st post above:

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post

When reading the booklet provided with the Connect-6021, it's clearly stated that the brown/red wires from the 6021 MUST NOT be connected to the tracks


Fred
Offline French_Fabrice  
#10 Posted : 29 August 2011 08:28:28(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hi efel,

I should have refined my question :

It is ok to connect together the ground from the 2nd pair of the 6002 to the ground of "1" ?

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline supermoee  
#11 Posted : 29 August 2011 10:42:29(UTC)
supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Hello Fabrice,

you are playing a very dangerous game, by moving yourself beyond the rules of Märklin. If Märklin set up these rules, probably there is a reason behind.

Since you are doing this, nobody wants/will help you because too high is the risk to fry your centrals if there is some connection loop in your layout.

You are free to do it, and probably if you are approaching step by step properly, it may work. But do not expect concrete help on this.

rgds

Stephan
Offline Maxi  
#12 Posted : 29 August 2011 12:32:12(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
The safest answer is NO.
The brown connection from the 6021 is bridged internally which means that the brown wire connection from the 60214 and the 6021 will be electrically connected.

If memory serves me right there are different hardware versions for the 60214 where the output stage in the earlier produced 60214 has the same design as the 60173 boosters and the later designed 60214 has a output stage designed like the 60174 booster. The 60173 booster design required a separation of both the red and brown connection between power blocks, the 60714 booster design only requires the red connection to be separated.

Best to keep the light circuit isolated or only connected to one of the power supplies and not bridge the brown wire connection as proposed in your latest diagram.

Matthew
Offline French_Fabrice  
#13 Posted : 29 August 2011 13:19:50(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hello All,

Thanks for your inputs.
Maxi has clarified the fact that the 6021 brown wire is bridged internally, which I didn't know. So, I've totally removed the light circuit at the moment, and there is no more bridge between the grounds (and no more light, but I can wait for the time necessary to setup a new separated ground).

My hardware version of the 60214 is 4.33, which is supposed to mean an galvanic isolation (read that in the forum).

I've quickly experimented without the light circuit. The manual operation (i.e. interacting with the 60214 and the plastic stick) is ok with all solenoid devices, including signals. But when I connect the 60214 via the Ethernet cable to the computer and Rocrail, only devices 1 to 16 are "clickable" from the computer - The 6040 connected has the same address range. Hmmm, strange Huh

Anyway, I'll keep you informed of the progress.

Next steps will be:
1) Check there is no connection between the two grounds circuits (1 and 2+3)
2) Local test and computer test
3) Add a third separate ground line for the light, and reconnect the lights
4) Local test and computer test
5) Remove the 6040
6) Local test and computer test
If things are not better, totally remove the 6021 system, revert to 60214 only...and buy a 60174/60101

Thanks to all
Fabrice
Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 29 August 2011 13:40:36(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Fabrice,

Why is the brown wire (light) connected to the brown track wire (CS2) ?

Why not disconnect the 6021 from the CS2 and operate your signals etc etc. (via k83's as per picture)
Use the light power from your 6021 transformer.

regards.,

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 29 August 2011 14:07:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Maxi Go to Quoted Post
The brown connection from the 6021 is bridged internally which means that the brown wire connection from the 60214 and the 6021 will be electrically connected.

That would be no problem if there was no other connection.

But there is another connection: the cable between the 60128 and the 60214.

You can measure the voltage between the brown connector of the 6021 and the brown connector of the 60214.
If there is voltage, then do not connect them.
If there is no voltage, then it could be safe to connect them, but I think I wouldn't try it.

It was already said: you're on the safe side if you take the NO from the manual as a NO.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Maxi  
#16 Posted : 29 August 2011 19:02:00(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
It was already said: you're on the safe side if you take the NO from the manual as a NO.


I agree.

Best to keep the connections simple and known.

It only takes one wrong move and then something unexpected will happen.

Copper wire is cheap, burnt electronics is not.

Matthew
Offline French_Fabrice  
#17 Posted : 29 August 2011 19:12:29(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hi,

> To John : The brown (light) was connected to the brown (CS2) to have a common ground and to use already implemented brown wiring (less wiring to refactor)...but it seems it was not a good idea. Also, the main purpose of installing the 6021 system coupled to the 60214 was : 1) to use 2 more knobs to command manually the locos and 2) use the power of the 6021 system to provide power to the k83 and the 76xxx signals... It's some kind of a booster dedicated to the electromagnetic devices.

> To Tom : Yes there is voltage (around 11-12V AC) between the two grounds (6021 brown and 60214 brown), so NO (more) connection between them.

Cheers
fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#18 Posted : 29 August 2011 23:52:22(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,474
Location: Lyon, France
Hi all,

Here is the status.
- Steps 1, 2, 5 & 6 performed (3 & 4 skipped but light circuit -ground & power- removed)
- Result step 2: same as described in post #15 (no change)
- Result of step 6 "Local test": I can activate solenoid devices including 76xxx signals with the plastic stick and the 60214.
- Result of step 6 "Computer test" under Rocrail, trying to activate the same solenoid devices with the mouse and layout on my computer display : Very strange result...
Before explaining it, the devices connected use the range addresses 1-16 (page 1), 17-24 (page 2), 97-103 (page 7), 217-223 (page 14), 241-255 (page 16).

When I first try to click from the computer in the 1-16 range, all switches perform well. But then if I try to click in the 17-24 range, the switch changes on the computer display, it also changes in the layout page of the 60214, but no activation is done to the switch itself, as if the 6021 hasn't received the command ???
For the switch 17 to operate from the computer, I have first to go to the Keyboard Page 1 of the 60214, activate from the 60214 one of the devices in the 1-16 range, then choose page 2 of the 60214 Keyboard, activate one of the devices in the 17-24 range from the 60214, and only after that, the interaction thru the computer can operate in the 17-24 range but no more in the 1-16 range. It looks like the manual interaction with the 60214 send some kind of "keyboard active number" info to the 6021, and if this "keyboard active number" is not changed, the 6021 doesn't know how to proceed...I can repeat the process for any page.

Next step: I've removed the red/brown output from the 6021, wired together the "1" & "2" brown circuit, "1" & "2" red circuit, performed a local test (all is fine, because the solenoid devices are now powered by the 60214), and a computer test (all is fine, as it was previously before installing the 6021 system).

My conclusion is that a 6021/60128/60214 system connected to a computer using RocRail (via the 60214) cannot fully drive the solenoid devices when they are powered by the 6021 subsystem. I've reread the 60128 booklet : What is described is the ability to manually command some locos stored in the 60214 from the 6021/6036, and also the ability to directly command solenoids from the 6040's... But what I have tried to do seems not be possible.

To summarize, you can manually interact with the 60214 or the 6021 with success (solenoid powered by the 60214) but using output power from the 6021 for the solenoids is not advised.

Last step: ordered a 60101/60174 to have more power

Thanks to all for your inputs
Cheers
fabrice
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