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Poll Question : What is your prefered botton arangement fo Controller STOP and GO operation and status indication
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Offline clapcott  
#1 Posted : 23 January 2011 03:53:47(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,312
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Noting that the Marklin iPhone/iPod_Touch MS_App uses a Stop/Go Status (function/indication) arrangement which would NOT be my preference I wondered what others considered their optimum.

For me the Ergonomics of Colour should indicate the "Current Status" thus Green means Good/Go and Red means Bad/Stop. Another school of thought is for the Colour of a button to indicate what happens when you press it.

Related to this is/are the icon/words on the button do they indicate the state or the function.

This may be a mute point if two buttons indicate/perform two separate function (e.g. stop and go) specifically, however when a single button is used to toggle from one state to the other - some system of understanding must evolve.

Note: Historically
- the 6021 had two buttons with a Red LED (because they were cheap) ON when power was on and OFF when Power was off
- 60212 CS1 had two buttons with two (coloured red and green) lights (inside each button) thus indicating state by both position and colour
- 60213/4/5 CS2 and MS2 have a single button with a Red Lit indicator to mean Stop and a "non lit" indicator to mean go.
- The MS1 is similar to the CS2/MS2 (Single button - no display=Good) except that instead of a RED Lit indicator for stop you see the word STOP.

======================================================================================
EXPLANATION

Because of space limitations - Option 6 should preferably read....

1 Butt - 1 light :
- Indicator shows Red meaning = Press for STOP (Currently GO)
- Indicator shows Green meaning = Press for Go (Currently Stopped)
(... this is as per the new MS_App)


======================================================================================
ERRATA

Of course the 4th option should read

1 Butt - 1 light : OFF=GO/ON=Stop (CS2/MS1/MS2)

Edited by user 23 January 2011 04:40:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter

Offline GSRR  
#2 Posted : 23 January 2011 05:22:11(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
If it is a piece of hardware like the MS2 I would go with #3.

If it is virtual, say like TouchCab, and the real estate is small, then #5.

r/Thomas



edit: for clarity, I think.

Edited by user 23 January 2011 17:01:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 23 January 2011 05:40:40(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,312
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: GSRR Go to Quoted Post
I have to go with #5 ( 1 Butt - 1 light : GREEN=GO/RED=Stop) ... I want a postive reinforcement of my current state, not the armed state. .... I like the TouchCab way

Thomas, Your comment is contradictory. TouchCab uses the "armed" indicatation as you callit.

It is this aspect that has me wondering how much Jens/TouchCab have been involved with the MS_App. Noting that Jens had a similar survey a couple of months ago.
Peter

Offline GSRR  
#4 Posted : 23 January 2011 06:09:03(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GSRR Go to Quoted Post
I have to go with #5 ( 1 Butt - 1 light : GREEN=GO/RED=Stop) ... I want a postive reinforcement of my current state, not the armed state. .... I like the TouchCab way

Thomas, Your comment is contradictory. TouchCab uses the "armed" indicatation as you callit.

It is this aspect that has me wondering how much Jens/TouchCab have been involved with the MS_App. Noting that Jens had a similar survey a couple of months ago.




Have a look at his comments recently. I know he is working with Lenz, as for Maerklin I think not.


r/Thomas



edit: I changed my first post.

Edited by user 23 January 2011 17:00:44(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline kimballthurlow  
#5 Posted : 23 January 2011 06:14:54(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,265
Location: Brisbane, Australia
The two buttons of the MS1 (60212) are in my opinion, clear and indicative.

The colored light shows the status - STOP is coloured red when system is OFF, and GO is coloured green when system is ON. When either one is lit, pressing the other will change status. This method is called anunciation (announcing a state), and was typical in analogue instrument panels in industry, in days gone by.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#6 Posted : 23 January 2011 07:11:27(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,265
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Let's face it, the digital age can provide all sorts of anunciation buttons that far exceed the capabilities of days gone by.

Fo example, the GUI of any computer device (iphone, ipad, smartphone, computer etc) can supply 'buttons' which change colour depending on status, or are greyed out when not available.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 23 January 2011 08:33:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 9,307
When more than 1 players are involved, two buttons are better.

With a single-button solution, if two players see a forthcoming crash and both press STOP, the first will turn the power off - and the other will turn it on again ...

Same can happen in a single-player environment with a derailed train: player hears/sees the derailed train and presses STOP - if the shortcut detection was faster and switched off, player switches on again.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 23 January 2011 09:43:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,999
Location: New Zealand
CS1 setup with 2 buttons is my preference, i.e. #3.
Offline Webmaster  
#9 Posted : 23 January 2011 09:58:58(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 9,629
For a physical box like CS1, I like that "analog" arrangement... You see a button showing its state. If you want to change the state you press the other button, the good old way of doing it.

But with screen buttons, it is intuitive that it says what will happen if I press it... Guess it's a work related illness for me too...

What if the "Post" button in the forum editor would say "Not Posted" instead - would you immediately think that's the one to press to post a message?
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline jerdenberg  
#10 Posted : 23 January 2011 12:58:29(UTC)
jerdenberg


Joined: 10/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 810
Location: Winkel, Noord-Holland
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
What if the "Post" button in the forum editor would say "Not Posted" instead - would you immediately think that's the one to press to post a message?


I think this particular analogy does not apply, as there is no "unpost" action, while "stop" could be viewed as "un-go" [no toggle versus toggle button difference].

On the MS2, I had no problem with the STOP thing that lights up in the STOP state, but I can imagine that a virtual toggle button that changes its colour and display text should display the state that will be activated when it is pressed.

For anything on screen, I would think the simplest would be a button that is green and says GO in the stop state and vice versa. The problem with the semisimultaneous button presses that cancel each other might be solvable by setting a limit to the time between a stop and a go (it seems unlikely that the user would wish to stop, then go, within even several seconds?).

I would go for the MS2 version with a physical button, and for option 5 with a virtual button.
Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 23 January 2011 16:51:15(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,111
I have run into this UI design problem myself. Since different users have different expectations I believe one needs to always show status and have the toggle gesture as optional. Of course with a regular checkbox, this is solved because the check or X indicates status and there is no presented result of using the control. i.e. one can see an X and know it is set, we have learned that clicking it toggles the status, there is no UI presentation while it is checked to indicate the direction it will move when actuated.

When we have two colors such as red/green the issue is no so obvious. Since the status needs to be shown and needs very little space I think it is very easy to show a little status light in addition to having the user control that will toggle the state. The user control can then dynamically adapt itself to indicate what it will do such as changing color and also any text present.

When I designed the UI for my mobile controller, I opted for green and gray for power on and off, orange and gray for halt mode on and off. Different states of them can be seen at http://layout.mixmox.com...tPC_remote_train_control
So status is dominant in my case. I did not feel I needed to make any UI dynamic gesture that varied with the status.

Dale
Arrival and Departure signs: http://remotesign.mixmox.com
My first layout: http://layout.mixmox.com
My current layout (under construction): http://cabinlayout.mixmox.com
IB Software: http://bw.mixmox.com
Offline clapcott  
#12 Posted : 23 January 2011 20:25:27(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,312
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
OK, To broaden the discussion a notch...

For the two button scenario (Separate Go and Stop) how would you best like indicated the possibility of more than 2 states.

Aside from the obvious
- Stop
- Go
Qualified status might be available (e.g. programatically the CS1 can differentiate a Stop from the button vs a Stop from a short)
- Stop - from short
- Stop - from "other user"
And further qualified
- Stop - from short indicating WHICH booster domain
- Stop - from user WITCH a User/Throttle : ID of some kind

Would you still have a "CS1 like" implementation with a light associated with each button (maybe adding a "blinking red" to indicate a short") or would you revert to bland buttons and a single indicator for status. The indicator could be a multicolour LED (RED,Green,ORANGE) or a display with text capabilities (Thus allowing Booster ID)


Peter

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 23 January 2011 20:31:37(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,999
Location: New Zealand
Wow, lot's of extra options there! So many to choose from.

Can I have one that indicates when a cup of coffee is being brewed for me?



Well for me, the audible indication of a short is best, that way it doesn't matter where in the room I am. And the others aren't really necessary IMHO, apart from maybe an indication of which booster domain the short occurs in.
Offline GSRR  
#14 Posted : 23 January 2011 20:36:38(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
OK, To broaden the discussion a notch...

For the two button scenario (Separate Go and Stop) how would you best like indicated the possibility of more than 2 states.

Aside from the obvious
- Stop
- Go
Qualified status might be available (e.g. programatically the CS1 can differentiate a Stop from the button vs a Stop from a short)
- Stop - from short
- Stop - from "other user"
And further qualified
- Stop - from short indicating WHICH booster domain
- Stop - from user WITCH a User/Throttle : ID of some kind

Would you still have a "CS1 like" implementation with a light associated with each button (maybe adding a "blinking red" to indicate a short") or would you revert to bland buttons and a single indicator for status. The indicator could be a multicolour LED (RED,Green,ORANGE) or a display with text capabilities (Thus allowing Booster ID)





Peter,

Taking your scenario. With a home layout with say main lines running outer, with a controller, and a shunting area, separated with a booster and a another controller. Moving on to a large layout with multiple controllers say in club setting or a show.

I would go with your "further qualified" It would be very advantageous to see which booster section "shorted" or who amongst multiple controllers called emergency stop.

I would go with the CS1 and the blinking button certainly for a CS / booster short or emergency stop.


r/Thomas


ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline DaleSchultz  
#15 Posted : 23 January 2011 20:45:52(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,111
since the error conditions for a stop condition can be numerous, what I do is throw a line into the log screen that reports what the error condition was, and if it is anything serious, a buzzer sounds too. Items in the log screen that relate to some editable object (such as a train or a loco or a track) can be double clicked an that action will take you directly to that object.
Dale
Arrival and Departure signs: http://remotesign.mixmox.com
My first layout: http://layout.mixmox.com
My current layout (under construction): http://cabinlayout.mixmox.com
IB Software: http://bw.mixmox.com
Offline GSRR  
#16 Posted : 23 January 2011 20:48:11(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
since the error conditions for a stop condition can be numerous, what I do is throw a line into the log screen that reports what the error condition was, and if it is anything serious, a buzzer sounds too. Items in the log screen that relate to some editable object (such as a train or a loco or a track) can be double clicked an that action will take you directly to that object.



Dale,

The log screen would show up on your PC only, correct? Not the PDA?



r/Thomas

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline DaleSchultz  
#17 Posted : 23 January 2011 21:21:25(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,111
Thomas, the log shows up at both sides. So anything being logged can show up on the mobile device too.
There is a log tab on the PDA - the screen shot at http://layout.mixmox.com...tPC_remote_train_control only shows one log entry though.

So if I am controlling the layout from my armchair with the PDA and the controller shuts down because of a short, I can see form the log screen that there was a short on the booster, or whatever.

This makes it useful for troubleshooting - I can be underneath the layout with the PDA fiddling with say an s88 wire and I can be logging s88 events - which appear on the PDA. etc.
Dale
Arrival and Departure signs: http://remotesign.mixmox.com
My first layout: http://layout.mixmox.com
My current layout (under construction): http://cabinlayout.mixmox.com
IB Software: http://bw.mixmox.com
Offline TimR  
#18 Posted : 23 January 2011 21:42:19(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
I prefer CS1 arrangement of two buttons.

With only one bttn for Stop/Go, it's too easy to press the button twice and ended up not doing the intended...
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline GSRR  
#19 Posted : 23 January 2011 22:12:50(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Thomas, the log shows up at both sides. So anything being logged can show up on the mobile device too.
There is a log tab on the PDA - the screen shot at http://layout.mixmox.com...tPC_remote_train_control only shows one log entry though.

So if I am controlling the layout from my armchair with the PDA and the controller shuts down because of a short, I can see form the log screen that there was a short on the booster, or whatever.

This makes it useful for troubleshooting - I can be underneath the layout with the PDA fiddling with say an s88 wire and I can be logging s88 events - which appear on the PDA. etc.



Dale,

Perfect. The scenario you describe, without another person around to help is a good one.


r/Thomas

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline Goofy  
#20 Posted : 05 February 2011 09:04:05(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 6,315
I did vote for 1 Butt-1 Light:On=Go/Off=Stop
Since it has to do about permanent button in function,by shut off layout or turn on again on the same button.
In this way it´s more safety by handle in situation.
Offline GSRR  
#21 Posted : 12 February 2011 12:56:32(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
It appears that the upcoming update to TouchCab v1.6 has some changes.


http://www.touchcab.com/news.html

TouchCab at the Nürnberg Toy Fair
Monday, 03 Jan, 2011


This is because the stop button has changed into an OK button. It works exactly the same way it always has, but now the color and state of the button reflects the actual state of the layout. Red for off, yellow for a short circuit or for other events and green for OK.

Yes ... I know ... I have always said ESU was wrong about their color scheme and I decided to go against the stream with a big red stop button, but now I have changed my mind. When everything else in TouchCab reflects real-time status of the command station, so should this button.





r/Thomas

ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
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