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Offline Ranjit  
#1 Posted : 29 October 2010 08:26:22(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Hi All,

What is the difference betwen a Marklin 60052 and the 60061?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
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"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
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"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 29 October 2010 08:46:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
In my best layman terms description, 60052 is basically a transformer - a lump of iron with copper wire windings - which serves to reduce 230v/240v mains voltage down to approx 16v AC.

60061 is a switchmode power supply, which consists of a bunch of fancy electronics, and no transformer, which achieves the same thing, but with the added advantage of much less voltage voltage drop under full load. A conventional transformer will experience a loss of voltage as the load (current draw) goes up, whereas a switchmode power supply is designed to maintain voltage output under load.

That means that your trains will keep running more or less up to full current output of the power supply.


There will no doubt be other added complexities/issues/conditions that others will want to add to the description, but I wanted to keep the reply as simple as I could. There have also been one or two other threads on the topic of switchmode power supplies.
Offline Ranjit  
#3 Posted : 29 October 2010 09:11:17(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
So, if I understand you clearly, David, they are both basically transformers reducing the mains voltage (230/240V or 110V) to an operational voltage (16V), except that the 60061 has a smaller footprint, more efficient, and more complicated in design with high electromagnetic interference (EMI).

Are both units recommended for use to run a digital layout?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Online H0  
#4 Posted : 29 October 2010 09:38:50(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Ranjit!
Ranjit wrote:
they are both basically transformers reducing the mains voltage (230/240V or 110V) to an operational voltage (16V)

60052 is a transformer, 60061 is no transformer.
The former produces unstabilized AC (16 V nominal voltage), the later produces stabilized DC (19 V), is much smaller, much lighter and produces less heat during operation.

And as said in another thread: a transformer delivers 0 V at 100 or 120 times every second, so the consumer (booster or controller) must buffer power - the power supply does the buffering and provides clean, constant DC all the time.

With a simple transformer, the output voltage varies with the load.
The buffering inside most controllers is not stabilized so under load the voltage will drop until the transformer delivers the next peak.
With some trains this leads to noticeable changes of speed.
See my test results here:
https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=15313

According to the Märklin Transformer FAQ, only 70 % of the nominal transformer output can be used permanently to feed the controller.
With a 52 VA transformer, the digital system can only use 36 W permanently.
With a 60 VA transformer, the digital system can only use 42 W permanently.
More power is available for short times, but in the long time the bi-metal switch will turn the transformer off (they write it can take up to an hour until the switch off occurs).

With the 60 W power supply, 60 W can permanently be used by the digital system.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ranjit  
#5 Posted : 29 October 2010 10:06:58(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Thank you for that information, Thomas.

So, do I still need a 60052 and a 60061 to run a digital layout OR is the 60061 sufficient?

Can I power all the solenoids accessories, signals and other lighting items with just the 60061 OR is it used primarily with the Central Station 60214?

Thank you for the test results link.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Online H0  
#6 Posted : 29 October 2010 10:16:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Ranjit wrote:
Can I power all the solenoids accessories, signals and other lighting items with just the 60061 OR is it used primarily with the Central Station 60214?

When using any CS or MS, there must never be a connection between the power supply and the track. You'd risk the CS when using the power supply to feed turnouts also. And light bulbs would die earlier because of the higher voltage if fed by the 60061.

You need a power source for the controller (transformer or power supply) - and you need a separate power source (I'd recommend a 16 V transformer) for solenoids and accessories.

The Märklin cables available to use these transformers with CS1/2 and MS1/2 make it difficult to also use them to feed accessories - this is by design to prevent using it for other items at the same time.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline hemau  
#7 Posted : 29 October 2010 12:08:42(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
H0 wrote:
Hi, Ranjit!
Originally Posted by: Ran

According to the Mä Go to Quoted Post


Yes, but the digital system itself would get hotter and hotter if it would do that. I have driven my CS1R to 55 degrees C by running it at almost 3 A for a longer time but temperature was then still rising so I called it a day. Maybe I should put it in a fridge?BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin

The biggest advance of a switching power supply is IMHO the stabilised voltage, so the trains keep their speed (which they do not like that with a transformer of 52 or 60 VA) when under heavy load.

Kind regards, Henk
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 29 October 2010 14:12:57(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Ranjit wrote:
So, if I understand you clearly, David, they are both basically transformers...



Bigdaddynz wrote:
In my best layman terms description, 60052 is basically a transformer



Bigdaddynz wrote:
60061 is a switchmode power supply, which consists of a bunch of fancy electronics, and no transformer....



H0 wrote:
60052 is a transformer, 60061 is no transformer.



Ranjit, not sure how we can be more clearer than the comments already made, but Tom (H0) goes on to describe the technicalities very well in his first post, and Henk makes the additional good point that "the biggest advance of a switching power supply, (i.e 60051) is IMHO the stabilised voltage, so the trains keep their speed (which they do not like that with a transformer of 52 or 60 VA - 60052) when under heavy load."
Offline Ranjit  
#9 Posted : 29 October 2010 14:14:50(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
I did not fully understand what you said, Thomas.

If I understand you correctly, a tranformer such as the 60052 or 6647 should be used separately to power solenoids, street lighting, etc., and the 60061 should be used in conjuction with the Central Station or Mobile Station to power the track for the locomotives, coach lighting, etc. Is this correct?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
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"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 29 October 2010 14:18:34(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Yes!

The connector on the output of the 60061 makes it difficult to use it for any thing other than plugging it into a Central Station 2, which has the corresponding female 4 pin socket for the 60061 to plug into. The 60061 does not have the traditional female jack that would plug into a Central Station 1, or the ugly box used by a Mobile Station 1, or even the 60113 track power box used by the Mobile Station 2.

The 60061, by design, is intended to be used only with the Central Station 2. It can, with sufficient modification/adaptation, be used to power other devices, but this was not Marklin's intention.
Offline Ranjit  
#11 Posted : 29 October 2010 14:19:03(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Getting there slowly, David! I am just having difficulty with the terminology.

Is the 60052 the later version of the 6647 tranformer?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 29 October 2010 14:21:14(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Lets not lose sight of why they are changing to switched mode power supplies. It's to comply with the EU directives on power consumption and efficiency.

Although switched mode power supplies are more efficient, they are also more complicated and expensive to make than a simple transformer based power supply. With this complexity comes less reliability, so be prepared to have more failures in these power packs than you would expect in a transformer.

One factor which is not being mentioned here is that it is possible to build a DC power supply with transformer, bridge regulator, smoothing capacitor, and a solid state regulator, which is every bit as good at regulating power loads as a switched mode system. It will be bulkier and a bit less efficient, but it will last a lifetime.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 29 October 2010 14:30:21(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Ranjit wrote:
Is the 60052 the later version of the 6647 tranformer?


6647 transformer is a 32va transformer, and has a red loco control throttle.

60052 is a branded 'Marklin Systems' or maybe 'Marklin Digital' 60va transformer (i.e. nearly twice the output power rating of the 6647), and no throttle control. It's main use was to power the Central Station 1 and early 60213 Central Station 2's, but can be used to power accessories. There were/are 2 flavours of 60052 - one had a removable screw terminal block connector for the output terminals, the other had the traditional yellow/brown push clip terminals that take a bare wire for output terminals.

I removed references to 60051 from your post Ranjit, as this was a typo on my part, and has since been corrected.
Offline Ranjit  
#14 Posted : 29 October 2010 14:47:29(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Thank you, David, for patiently explaining the nitty gritties of digital layouts.

Does the 60052 have a wall plug or only a plug that goes directly to the Central Station?

It looks like the 6647 would not be needed anymore, right? Is it still being made to supplement the 60052?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline AshleyH  
#15 Posted : 29 October 2010 18:54:20(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
You could use the 6647 to power any lights or solenoids.
Then use the new switch mode power supply exclusively with the 60214.

Interestingly, the ESU update pack for the 60212 also includes a switch mode voltage stabilised power supply.
This raises the available output from 2.8 to 4 amps.
Offline Ranjit  
#16 Posted : 29 October 2010 19:53:28(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Thank you for that information, Ashley!

It looks like I would need only 60052, and the SMPS 60061 to run the digital layout.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Online H0  
#17 Posted : 29 October 2010 20:40:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
AshleyH wrote:
Interestingly, the ESU update pack for the 60212 also includes a switch mode voltage stabilised power supply.

You say "also". ESU included the power supply since March 2009 when CS1 reloaded was available for the first time (and AFAIK ECoS always came with a power supply).
ESU includes a 90 VA power supply that supports a wide range of voltages (VIn: 100 V – 240 V AC, 50 / 60 Hz).
Output voltage is adjustable in the range of 15 through 21 V DC.

AshleyH wrote:
This raises the available output from 2.8 to 4 amps.

They removed a limitation from the software. But with a 60 VA transformer, 2.8 A is about the maximum you can expect.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline hemau  
#18 Posted : 30 October 2010 00:35:10(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
So it's not only the power source from the Reloaded package that gives the extra power to 4A but indeed the software update as well. Without the update the CS1(not-R) would not get beyond 2,8A output (which is also not bad but was hampered by the 60VA trafo in full use).
Kind regards, Henk
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Offline Nightowl4933  
#19 Posted : 30 October 2010 17:42:43(UTC)
Nightowl4933

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 972
Location: North Wiltshire
Just to throw a spanner in the works, I don't have the advantage of digital as I'm modelling in Z gauge.

I'm using controllers with 4 outputs (2 for train control and 2 for accessories) and a 60052 for relays and switches.

As M* don't produce anything providing 16Vac anymore, how am I supposed to operate the relays? The accessories output from the controllers are only 11Vac!

Pete
Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun every year.
Z Scale is great - where's me glasses?
Online H0  
#20 Posted : 30 October 2010 18:10:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Nightowl4933 wrote:
As M* don't produce anything providing 16Vac anymore, how am I supposed to operate the relays?

6647/6646 still on green light.
Märklin say that old transformers can still be repaired/replaced.
And dealers can still sell what they have on stock.

And I think that Uhlenbrock and Conrad (to name just two) will continue to provide transformers.
IANAL but I think the EU regulation applies to complete devices only (and a starter set is complete).

Märklin announced that they are developing alternatives for those who are still using 6020, 6021, 6015, 6017.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Simplyme  
#21 Posted : 30 March 2015 08:56:30(UTC)
Simplyme

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: NEW SOUTH WALES, BLACKTOWN
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Nightowl4933 wrote:
As M* don't produce anything providing 16Vac anymore, how am I supposed to operate the relays?

6647/6646 still on green light.
Märklin say that old transformers can still be repaired/replaced.
And dealers can still sell what they have on stock.

And I think that Uhlenbrock and Conrad (to name just two) will continue to provide transformers.
IANAL but I think the EU regulation applies to complete devices only (and a starter set is complete).

Märklin announced that they are developing alternatives for those who are still using 6020, 6021, 6015, 6017.



So to add to the "stupid question" syndrome. I have just purchased a 6021 to use on my layout to commence digital operations. Can I use the 60052 to power this?
Or will it generate too much power/voltage?

Cheers...

Michael
Online H0  
#22 Posted : 30 March 2015 11:27:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Michael!
Originally Posted by: Simplyme Go to Quoted Post
Or will it generate too much power/voltage?
Märklin write in the 60052 manual that it can be used to power a 6021 or a 6017.
16 V AC is the correct voltage and it should be no problem if the wattage is higher than needed.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Simplyme  
#23 Posted : 31 March 2015 03:41:38(UTC)
Simplyme

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: NEW SOUTH WALES, BLACKTOWN
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Michael!
Originally Posted by: Simplyme Go to Quoted Post
Or will it generate too much power/voltage?
Märklin write in the 60052 manual that it can be used to power a 6021 or a 6017.
16 V AC is the correct voltage and it should be no problem if the wattage is higher than needed.

[/quote

Thanks Tom
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