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Offline DasBert33  
#1 Posted : 06 April 2010 11:26:07(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Hi all,

Yesterday at the Blankenberge swap meet/exhibition (see Piannes post) I bought me a new E44 #39441, from this years new items. I have the following bizarre problem with the loco: driving at slow speeds is ok but when I go higher, starting around half way, the loco begins to drive like it hickupps, switching very fast from slower to faster speeds.

I use an early 1st gen Ecos to drive it. I'm still using the original fixed 18V supply. I have read this 18V is not enough for new sound decoders and can disturb sound on new MFX locos, but does it also affect simple mfx decoders/csine drivers?

What is the cause for this?

EDIT: I forgot to mention. During mfx (M4) register procedure the loco acted funny also: instead of just standing still the motor went full throttle and it wanted to race around the track. I had to hold it above the track, but with electrical contact until the logon procedure was done, before it was 'quiet' again, and could be controlled.

Bert

PS: This is my first compact sine equipped loco.
Offline DasBert33  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2010 12:49:31(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Tested some more.

Now I don't think it is a voltage issue anymore.

With my standard ecos supply connected the track voltage readout shows 17.3V.
With a 19V laptop supply the measured voltage is 18.3V and I still have the same problem.
Finally I also connected my good old 6002 transformer. With that the measured voltage is 19.5V and the problem remains.

I also tried lowering the maximum speed -> no joy.

And tried a factory reset -> no joy.

I think I just have to stop to buy new locos. My other relatively (2007) new one (37039, see the another topic) had traction problems, this one has bad electronics. Honestly I had hoped that all the sine driver problems would have gone away by now, but alas.

Now I have to go back to the dealer (which is not close to me BTW) and spend time going through all the associated misery... Sad If this is the way Marklin is headed they SHOULD go bankrupt.

Bottom line: STAY AWAY FROM #39441

Bert
Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2010 13:28:19(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Bert, I have one on it's way. I hope it's not got the same problem. I have other new locos with MFX/SDS electronics and they run very nicely (39180, 39563). I run them with my trusty 6021, by the way.

I will post my report here when I receive the loco.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline DasBert33  
#4 Posted : 06 April 2010 14:12:44(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
RayPayas wrote:
Bert, I have one on it's way. I hope it's not got the same problem. I have other new locos with MFX/SDS electronics and they run very nicely (39180, 39563). I run them with my trusty 6021, by the way.

I will post my report here when I receive the loco.


Thanks Ray,

I'd appreciate that!

I just did another test. I made a simple oval and ran the loco in analog mode. Result: perfect driving over the full range. Thus it is definately electronics.

I will try my old dusty 6021 next, but I expect the same result as the ecos.

I opened up the loco to see what was inside. The PCB has a sticker on it saying csine and some number. I hope they did not recycle some old PCBs from unsold locos. The PCB also had red LEDs on it, to serve as read lights, but I can not enable them by just assigning function outputs. (the previous versions of these locos had red rear lights)

The loco will be returned to the dealer in 2 weeks (the next swap meet).

Bert
Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 06 April 2010 14:30:10(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
DasBert33 wrote:
RayPayas wrote:
Bert, I have one on it's way. I hope it's not got the same problem. I have other new locos with MFX/SDS electronics and they run very nicely (39180, 39563). I run them with my trusty 6021, by the way.

I will post my report here when I receive the loco.


Thanks Ray,

I'd appreciate that!

I just did another test. I made a simple oval and ran the loco in analog mode. Result: perfect driving over the full range. Thus it is definately electronics.

I will try my old dusty 6021 next, but I expect the same result as the ecos.

I opened up the loco to see what was inside. The PCB has a sticker on it saying csine and some number. I hope they did not recycle some old PCBs from unsold locos. The PCB also had red LEDs on it, to serve as read lights, but I can not enable them by just assigning function outputs. (the previous versions of these locos had red rear lights)

The loco will be returned to the dealer in 2 weeks (the next swap meet).

Bert



Ok, shame you had a problem with it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for mine.

Did Era II locos have red rear lights? I thought that was a more recent development that went with push-pull working.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline DasBert33  
#6 Posted : 06 April 2010 14:48:29(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Just also tested with a 6021: problem remains although a little bit less. It is especially visible on a throttle setting of 1/2 to 3/4.

This was done on a simple oval, so no other trains/electronics connected (-> higher output voltage). I also tested with an oval and a plain transformer on my ecos. Reported output voltage was 21.6V but the problem still remains.

I hope it is just my loco then, so I can have it replaced by a new one. But the csine sticker I found, combined with the red LEDs makes me believe they sold old refurbished electronics in this loco, without properly testing first.

This was absolutely the last time I bought anything new on a swap meet. Next time I will ask for a decent demonstration first at the dealer shop itself.

Bert

Offline DasBert33  
#7 Posted : 06 April 2010 14:50:01(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
RayPayas wrote:


Did Era II locos have red rear lights? I thought that was a more recent development that went with push-pull working.



I think they did. I think they placed red discs in front of the normal headlights. They even had some push-pull trains at that time.
Offline jeehring  
#8 Posted : 06 April 2010 16:10:28(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
I'm sorry that things didn't work Bert !
E44 is such nice model ( with very nice engraving and good look on tracks...).
For sure if it was bought to your usual dealer, you just had to make an exchange
At your place, when you receive the new one , you should try it first with 6021 with factory motorola adress....Then put it under MFX with old Ecos...
some questions come to my mind :
Did you get the last software update of Ecos ? Is it your first login procedure of a new MFX lok under this last update, or not ? Of a SDS Mfx lok ?
Was the track connected to programming track output, or Layout output ? ( for a first registration of a new Lok I should strictly follow the procedure - on programming track output, electrical specifications are different...)

Do you know if the seller registered it with some MS, before your purchase ? Or with another Ecos or CS1/CS2 ? (to test it)
Offline jeehring  
#9 Posted : 06 April 2010 16:26:21(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
From far...

It looks more like some load compensation settings (load regulation) or any regulation setting & tuning.....( factor "I" and things like that...) On Ecos 1 you have access to those settings, may be ...
Offline spitzenklasse  
#10 Posted : 06 April 2010 16:52:35(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Oh Bert, you got a Locomotive that's acting like a runaway "TOYOTA"! Electronics, software issues, and the like.
After reading that some members had similar issues with early soft drive c-sine p.c.b. symptoms, before I rushed to send my 39120 E10.2 back, I decided to allow it to run with a loaded coal train for about an hour at moderate speed. Mine was erradic at slower speeds, and after some run in time, it has smoothed out nicely. Mellow I do not have a central , or mobile station, so I don't know how mine would act with one, or other.
Offline DasBert33  
#11 Posted : 06 April 2010 19:32:16(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
I can't really complain about the dealer, he is one of the cheaper ones in Belgium, except that his shop is relatively far away. I gave him a call today and we agreed that I give the loco back at the next swap meet and he can then check it.

You are correct that it is the load regulation settings, I also think that. The only issue is that it is the settings in the sine motor driver, the ones you can not change. All I, K, etc values that I can set through the ecos are '0' because the decoder ones arent used. So basically I can not change it.

I doubt that running in the loco will change anything, but since the next swap meet where I return the loco is 2 weeks away, I will try it anyway.

Bert


Offline steventrain  
#12 Posted : 06 April 2010 20:41:42(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Send it back under warranty, Davy.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline AshleyH  
#13 Posted : 08 April 2010 14:15:46(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
I think it is worth trying a decoder reset. This is easy with an ECOS

There was another thread on here with one of the latest decoder fitted locos behaving erratically out of the box. A decoder reset fixed it.
Offline DasBert33  
#14 Posted : 18 April 2010 16:21:20(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Hi all,

Today I met the dealer again at a swap meet and he wanted to swap the loco immediately for a new one. (good service!)

Sadly the new one exhibits exactly the same problems, in a short test on my layout. (I didn't try a decoder reset but previously that didnt help)
What is worst is that this time the loco is damaged: a small piece on the front is broken off (nowhere to be found in the box), a handrail is bend and some paint is chipped off, as if the loco was dropped. Mad
I know I should have checked the loco when I made the swap. I hope the dealer will continue to give me the same service now that I have to return it a 2nd time.

Ray, do you have any update on your loco, or is it stuck in the ashcloud ? Laugh I'm starting to think the loco is not all that compatible with my ecos...

Bert



Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 18 April 2010 18:31:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
DasBert33 wrote:
Hi all,

Today I met the dealer again at a swap meet and he wanted to swap the loco immediately for a new one. (good service!)

Sadly the new one exhibits exactly the same problems, in a short test on my layout. (I didn't try a decoder reset but previously that didnt help)
What is worst is that this time the loco is damaged: a small piece on the front is broken off (nowhere to be found in the box), a handrail is bend and some paint is chipped off, as if the loco was dropped. Mad
I know I should have checked the loco when I made the swap. I hope the dealer will continue to give me the same service now that I have to return it a 2nd time.

Ray, do you have any update on your loco, or is it stuck in the ashcloud ? Laugh I'm starting to think the loco is not all that compatible with my ecos...

Bert





Haven't received it yet. I hope they aren't sending it airmail.BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline DasBert33  
#16 Posted : 24 April 2010 10:06:54(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
After some mails to ESU I have been able to improve the loco behaviour a little: I had to disable railcom. About half of the erratic behaviour went away.

Railcom operates by shortly removing power from the tracks and shorting + and -. If the loco stops (or hickups) when Railcom is used this is a clear indication that there is something wrong with the decoder design: it possibly does not have enough capacitors.

My layout is full of contact track so the smallest loss of contact, combined with the fixed 18V supply (less than the default marklin voltage I think) could give problems with a bad decoder design.

The loco has some room to put capacitors, but I'm undecided whether I should attempt to solder extra caps in a new loco still in waranty.

I did not see the LEDs flicker while the loco acted funny, but depending on how large the voltage dip in the loco is it is possible the LEDs stay on when the motor driver/decoder quits working.

What is strange however is that in conventional analog mode, on a small loop of old (rusty) M-track, it had no visible issues.

Bert

Offline DasBert33  
#17 Posted : 24 April 2010 11:30:09(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Now the other half of erractic behaviour is solved too now:

While testing the loco on my rusty M-track loop I swapped the PROG and MAIN connection on my ecos but forgot to change it back, causing my main layout to be fed from the programming output. This had the effect that the output voltage on the track was unstable, due to the many locos on the track.

Now I swapped the connections again and the loco is running normally most of the time.

Howeved, my previous post remains valid, the loco is VERY sensitive for bad contact. On my main loop on my layout there is an uncoupler track. Every time the loco passes it looses contact and makes a little hickup.

I think some capacitors might do miracles here. There a practically none when I open up the loco. Also a decent flywheel would help, now the gears probably suffer a lot.

Sadly I can not use railcom anymore, which is BAD move from Marklin. I wanted to test/use Railcom in the future. I tried to exchange the decoder for a LokPilotV3. I did the functionmapping and regulation settings as in the orginal decoder but the loco wouldnt move at a decent speed, only at minimum speed. Anyone knows why?

Bert
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 24 April 2010 13:04:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
DasBert33 wrote:
My layout is full of contact track so the smallest loss of contact, combined with the fixed 18V supply (less than the default marklin voltage I think) could give problems with a bad decoder design.

When using a 16 V AC transformer you typically have a track voltage of about 22 volts (less under heavy load).
The new Märklin power supplies have voltages of 18 V (for MS2) or 19 V (for CS2).
I've heard the new sound decoders (BR 23, BR 39) do not function well if track voltage is lower than 19 V (ESU blames it on bad decoder design) ...
We'll see what happens when these power supplies are delivered.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#19 Posted : 14 May 2010 21:10:28(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Bert, I just remembered I had not answered you in this thread, now I have my loco.

I agree with your final conclusion, the loco is very sensitive to loss of contact. Most of the time it moves smoothly at all speed settings, but occasionally it hiccups at turnout crossings or uncoupler tracks. Sometimes it's better, and sometimes worse, but definitely always in the same spots.

When I run it for a while the jerks disappear. I guess the track or the wheels get that little bit cleaner and the current is not interrupted.

This behaviour seems to happen occasionally with some of my recent locos, but never with my older ones, even those with modern decoders fitted. I think the older type of motors are more free-running and have more momentum, which allows them to coast through bad spots more easily
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline dntower85  
#20 Posted : 15 May 2010 00:58:13(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Is it a loss of voltage or a loss of the digital signal that causes the erratic behavior. If it is a signal problem would capacitors help.
I almost cant get my tracks clean enough for my new br23, not only do contact tracks give a problem but when the pick up shoe hits the circuit track switch if the loco is going slow enough it stalls.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline DasBert33  
#21 Posted : 15 May 2010 10:41:26(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
It is bad design:
- a lack of capacitors
- a lack of a flywheel
- worm wheel drive

Every time the loco stalls the worm gear suffers due to the abrupt stop, especially when a heavy train is pulled. I don't think this train will last as long mechanically as my other Marklin models.

Adding capacitance will help a lot because the loco stutters a lot when railcom is enabled. Railcom shorts the track for a few ms, and the locos capacitors needs to bridge that gap. Most modern decoders can bridge the Railcom gap easily, they should, as it affects running, but Marklins recent decoders don't even work well without Railcom.

My guess is they wanted to cut costs and saved money on a 0.1 euro capacitor.

On stummi other people report good results with more capacitance. They add something like 470uF/25V. I will try soon with 1x or 2x 330uf/25V.

Bert
Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 15 May 2010 13:30:37(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
DasBert33 wrote:
It is bad design:
- a lack of capacitors
- a lack of a flywheel
- worm wheel drive

Every time the loco stalls the worm gear suffers due to the abrupt stop, especially when a heavy train is pulled. I don't think this train will last as long mechanically as my other Marklin models.

Adding capacitance will help a lot because the loco stutters a lot when railcom is enabled. Railcom shorts the track for a few ms, and the locos capacitors needs to bridge that gap. Most modern decoders can bridge the Railcom gap easily, they should, as it affects running, but Marklins recent decoders don't even work well without Railcom.

My guess is they wanted to cut costs and saved money on a 0.1 euro capacitor.

On stummi other people report good results with more capacitance. They add something like 470uF/25V. I will try soon with 1x or 2x 330uf/25V.

Bert


Bert, I guess the capacitor must be across the motor, not the supply, so as not to disrupt the digital signals?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 15 May 2010 13:48:23(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Bert,
You are dealing with Märklin decoders, so compatibility will be ok with Märtklin produced products but hold your breath with "foreign" products.

You don't have any capaciters or resistors between your track and digital system ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline pa-pauls  
#24 Posted : 15 May 2010 14:33:24(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,841
Location: Norway
I have at least 10 loco's with the "new" mfx decoder and has not seen any "problems" like this at allBlushing
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
Offline DasBert33  
#25 Posted : 15 May 2010 23:31:12(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Quote:

Bert, I guess the capacitor must be across the motor, not the supply, so as not to disrupt the digital signals?


They should go right behind the bridge rectifier of the decoder. The pins you need for this (V+ and GND) are available on the 21 pin mtc interface. So you can just solder 2 wires from the capacitor to these pins on the 'motherboard' PCB.

If a lot of capacitance is added (I'm thinking > 1000uF) it might be necessary to add a resistor in series with a diode in parallel to limit the charge up currents. Otherwise the rectifier diodes on the decoder might not survive the high initial charge current.

Quote:

You are dealing with Märklin decoders, so compatibility will be ok with Märtklin produced products but hold your breath with "foreign" products.


I know. But in the past Marklin didnt support DCC and now it is in their products. Now they virtually blocked Railcom which is just the next step in DCC and digital model railroading in general. I think a lot of products will emerge in the future supporting this standard, especially for computer control users like me.

Quote:

I have at least 10 loco's with the "new" mfx decoder and has not seen any "problems" like this at all


I guess you are lucky then, or maybe just less of a critic compared with myself. What might also be different is that my layout has a lot of contact track giving worse contact than a standard track, and that my ecos supply only gives 18V, which makes the small capacitor(s) on the new decoders store less energy than on a CS2 system with 22V supply.

I'm sure that if you look closely you will find that the newer locos don't drive as 'hickup-less' as the good old 6090x equipped or ESU-equipped locos.

Maybe you can deliberately create a bad contact or use a lower CS2 supply voltage and compare decoders that way. You will see...

Bert
Offline DasBert33  
#26 Posted : 16 May 2010 14:46:00(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Not really related to the topic but just to prove my luck when buying new Marklin:

This morning I bought car package 46094, an era 2 freight set, at a swap meet. Arriving home I discovered that one of the cars, the Oppeln type without brakemans cabin, lacks printing on one of the 2 sides. So I can go back to the guy (shop) who sold me that and try to swap it. Luckily I remembered to ask for the sellers contact info (its a Dutch shop from Maastricht).

I hate to be a Marklin basher but really a lot of my latest new item purchases had issues: some design issues, some manufacturing and quality check issues. I would not care that much if it wasnt so darn expensive. You might think I am being unreasonable or too much of a critic, but I also buy some older 2nd hand stuff, and the older things hardly give problems at all, while being really MUCH cheaper.

Bert
Offline DasBert33  
#27 Posted : 16 May 2010 23:23:59(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Enough rant.

I tried my theory of adding a capacitor: it worked like a charm! No more hickups, but smooth driving all the way. I can even turn on railcom again! (although I have no real use for it at the moment)

Adding the capacitor was even easier than described before. The necessary terminals (+ and GND) are available as SMD contacts for a programming connector or something. So you can just use these pads to solder the capacitor onto. You don't need a lot of soldering skills to accomplish that!

The capacitor value used was as said before an electrolytical type 330uF/25V, because those are available in a relatively small package.

I took some pictures of the installed capacitor and the used contacts. If someone is interested I can try to post the pictures here.

Bert
Offline RayF  
#28 Posted : 17 May 2010 01:06:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
DasBert33 wrote:
Enough rant.

I tried my theory of adding a capacitor: it worked like a charm! No more hickups, but smooth driving all the way. I can even turn on railcom again! (although I have no real use for it at the moment)

Adding the capacitor was even easier than described before. The necessary terminals (+ and GND) are available as SMD contacts for a programming connector or something. So you can just use these pads to solder the capacitor onto. You don't need a lot of soldering skills to accomplish that!

The capacitor value used was as said before an electrolytical type 330uF/25V, because those are available in a relatively small package.

I took some pictures of the installed capacitor and the used contacts. If someone is interested I can try to post the pictures here.

Bert


Good to hear, Bert. Please post the pics if you can.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline pa-pauls  
#29 Posted : 17 May 2010 09:41:06(UTC)
pa-pauls


Joined: 08/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,841
Location: Norway
Yes please do Bert...

We always love pictures Razz
Pål Paulsen
Märklin Spur 1 Digital, epoche 3
Offline DasBert33  
#30 Posted : 17 May 2010 22:11:47(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Not so much to see on the pics, but they will allow you to do what I did. The capacitor costs around 0.1 euro.(= nothing compared to the loco)

Mainboard with decoder removed before adding the capacitor:
UserPostedImage

Soldered capacitor to the SMD contacts. Mind the polarity of the capacitor! The right connection in the picture is GND (or '-'), the left connection is V+. The selection of wirecolors could have been better, I admit.
UserPostedImage

The decoder assembled again, loco working a lot better:
UserPostedImage

I must apologize for the unsharpness in the pictures.

Bert
Offline dntower85  
#31 Posted : 17 May 2010 22:37:37(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
thanks for the pictures, finding the info and being a Ginny pig for testing.

I know know you said this this help the new marklin decoders but what do you think about the esu decoders. My BR01 had the same issues and I am pretty sure it has an esu decoder in it.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline DasBert33  
#32 Posted : 17 May 2010 23:15:03(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
dntower85 wrote:

I know know you said this this help the new marklin decoders but what do you think about the esu decoders. My BR01 had the same issues and I am pretty sure it has an esu decoder in it.


ESU decoders have more capacitance onboard than Marklin decoders, and should normally not need this fix. But I have done similar changes to locos equipped with ESU decoders. As long as you do not exaggerate with the capacitor values it will only improve running over dirty tracks/with dirty wheels.
With the BR78/T18 model I have had the most problems. Both my fathers T18 (Wurt. colors) as my DRG BR78 (3303) do not have good contact in either the pickup shoe or the wheels. Probably it is related to the axle configuration and the relative low weight of the loco. The capacitor solves the problem partially (as it can go a little further without contact), but not completely. Funny thing is that the V32 loco I have (3420) with the same axle configuration but more weight has no contact problems, and thus no capacitor.

The BR01 you are talking about is it one of the new 3901x models? In that case I would let it drive in for a while (15 minutes). The blackened wheels on newer models need some running in before they give adequate contact. It also makes a big difference whether you use sound or not, sound consumes a lot more current, and then the smallest loss of contact can cause a sound glitch. In the latter case a capacitor would definately help. (if you find the space next to the big decoder and big speaker)

Bert
Offline TimR  
#33 Posted : 18 May 2010 02:10:25(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Very clever fix, Bert..

The info you posted is invaluable for those of us who have very limited knowledge of the electronic side of things...

I think Marklin owes you a 'thank you'.
ThumpUp
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline GSRR  
#34 Posted : 08 September 2010 06:21:11(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
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Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Bert,

You described a fairly varied diet of controllers. I wonder what kind of track are you using, more than one power district, boosters, and do you feed through the track solely, or did you put in feeder connections around the track?


regards,

Thomas


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Offline DasBert33  
#35 Posted : 08 September 2010 23:55:15(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
I have a fixed layout controlled with an ecos1 without extra boosters. I use C track and inserted extra power connections every 2 meter or so. Most of my normal track is converted to contact track so only 1 rail serves as a ground connection.

My layout is too small now for all the rolling stock I have, I'm in the process of expanding the layout. Probably I will start using booster for the extra part, as I plan a big hidden yard with the expansion.

Bert
Offline GSRR  
#36 Posted : 09 September 2010 00:09:45(UTC)
GSRR

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Location: USA
DasBert33 wrote:
I have a fixed layout controlled with an ecos1 without extra boosters. I use C track and inserted extra power connections every 2 meter or so. Most of my normal track is converted to contact track so only 1 rail serves as a ground connection.

My layout is too small now for all the rolling stock I have, I'm in the process of expanding the layout. Probably I will start using booster for the extra part, as I plan a big hidden yard with the expansion.

Bert



Bert,

Thank you for the update. I intend on putting in feeder wires every 2 meters also, at least now if I have problems with my 39140 and 39410 I have a solution.

You used a radial electrolytic capacitor?

r/Thomas


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Offline DasBert33  
#37 Posted : 09 September 2010 00:15:10(UTC)
DasBert33

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Yes, it is a radial electrolytical. I looked for one with the lowest diameter and biggest capacitance value. It turned out 330uF/25V was a good compromise.

If you want a higher voltage rating to be safer, when you also want analog operation, the capacitor will be bigger.

Bert
Offline GSRR  
#38 Posted : 09 September 2010 00:19:02(UTC)
GSRR

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Location: USA
DasBert33 wrote:
Yes, it is a radial electrolytical. I looked for one with the lowest diameter and biggest capacitance value. It turned out 330uF/25V was a good compromise.

If you want a higher voltage rating to be safer, when you also want analog operation, the capacitor will be bigger.

Bert



Bert,

I'm planning all digital for my new layout, so your solution will work. How did you go about determining the proper pads on the pcb to solder to? If I'm doing this to another digital lok besides the 39441, then what am I looking for?

also any importance on the tolerance and temperature for the capacitor? +/-20% +105C ok?



thanks,


Thomas


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Offline DasBert33  
#39 Posted : 09 September 2010 12:29:42(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
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Posts: 1,245
Tolerance/temperature rating is not really important. The one you suggest is a standard tolerance and should be OK.

The pins you need are are the 'GND' pin and the '22V/V+' pin on the 21-pin connector. (there is a 5V/3V3 as well, but that doesnt need extra capacitance) You can find the pin assignment of the 21-pin connector on numerous places on the net. (eg the ESU site)
(!Do not confuse the Marklin/ESU mtc21 standard with the PluX 21 pin standard, they are different!)

In the other thread about the E40/E10 this is described as well.

The pads I used on the E44 are connected to these pins (you can see it on the pictures). You can use a multimeter and its beep function to determine if the pads are connected to required pins. It is always easier if you do not have to solder on the 21 pin connector directly, so I generally search for other contacts to use, and found those pads on the E44.



Bert
Offline trainbuff  
#40 Posted : 09 September 2010 14:47:39(UTC)
trainbuff


Joined: 26/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 507
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
DasBert33 wrote:
Tolerance/temperature rating is not really important. The one you suggest is a standard tolerance and should be OK.

The pins you need are are the 'GND' pin and the '22V/V+' pin on the 21-pin connector. (there is a 5V/3V3 as well, but that doesnt need extra capacitance) You can find the pin assignment of the 21-pin connector on numerous places on the net. (eg the ESU site)
(!Do not confuse the Marklin/ESU mtc21 standard with the PluX 21 pin standard, they are different!)

In the other thread about the E40/E10 this is described as well.

The pads I used on the E44 are connected to these pins (you can see it on the pictures). You can use a multimeter and its beep function to determine if the pads are connected to required pins. It is always easier if you do not have to solder on the 21 pin connector directly, so I generally search for other contacts to use, and found those pads on the E44.



Bert


Thank you. Can you tell which pins on the the 8-pin interface are GND and 22V?: UserPostedImage
Offline DasBert33  
#41 Posted : 09 September 2010 15:17:03(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
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Posts: 1,245
The 8 pin interface does not have GND nor 22V/V+ available. If you want to add capacitance to 8 pin interface decoders you need to solder on the decoders itself, right behind the bridge rectifier on the decoder. Probably there is already a large(r) capacitance available on the decoder, and you just need to connect the extra capacitance in parallel to the existing one.

But this operation has more risk compared to adding a capacitance to a 21 pin system,. This is one of the advantages of the 21 pin decoders.

Bert
Offline GSRR  
#42 Posted : 09 September 2010 15:42:28(UTC)
GSRR

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Location: USA
Bert,

very helpful, thank you.


r/Thomas

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Offline Jay  
#43 Posted : 09 September 2010 15:54:34(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
DasBert33 wrote:
I have a fixed layout controlled with an ecos1 without extra boosters. I use C track and inserted extra power connections every 2 meter or so. Most of my normal track is converted to contact track so only 1 rail serves as a ground connection.

Hi Bert
Please forgive my ignorance but what is contact track,how is it converted and why is it better than normal track.I have just come back to my trains after a very long layoff and starting all again over with digital.Confused Thanks in advance.
Jay
Offline GSRR  
#44 Posted : 09 September 2010 16:38:06(UTC)
GSRR

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Posts: 1,339
Location: USA


Hi Bert
Please forgive my ignorance but what is contact track,how is it converted and why is it better than normal track.I have just come back to my trains after a very long layoff and starting all again over with digital.Confused Thanks in advance.
Jay



Jay, welcome back. Try here for a description of a circuit track. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_circuit

Then look here for the Marklin item http://www.marklin.com/marklin_pdb.html/

Circuit Track 24994 (Momentary contact by means of a locomotive/car pickup shoe.)


Contact Track 24995 (ontinuous contact through wheel sets. With insulated section of rail for track occupation feedback when traversed by a train.)



r/Thomas


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Offline Jay  
#45 Posted : 09 September 2010 19:16:27(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Hello Thomas
Thank you so much for your reply and the links.I'm feeling quite intimidated,perhaps I should have stayed with analog.
Thanks again
jay
Offline DasBert33  
#46 Posted : 09 September 2010 20:02:44(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Jay wrote:

...perhaps I should have stayed with analog.


BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin

Definately not. Despite some issues as posted here there are too many huge advantages not to use digital.

BTW I understand your confusion about contact track. When talking about bad contacts and then mentioning contact track it might give the impression contact track is a better type of track. But it is not. Since the contact area is halved your tracks and need to be cleaner for the trains to keep functioning. This seems like something bad, but it is usefull when using computer control and being able to monitor track occupancy. It allows automation of trains running.
Offline trainbuff  
#47 Posted : 10 September 2010 01:25:21(UTC)
trainbuff


Joined: 26/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 507
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
DasBert33 wrote:
The 8 pin interface does not have GND nor 22V/V+ available. If you want to add capacitance to 8 pin interface decoders you need to solder on the decoders itself, right behind the bridge rectifier on the decoder. Probably there is already a large(r) capacitance available on the decoder, and you just need to connect the extra capacitance in parallel to the existing one.

But this operation has more risk compared to adding a capacitance to a 21 pin system,. This is one of the advantages of the 21 pin decoders.

Bert


Thanks.
Offline Jay  
#48 Posted : 10 September 2010 17:54:44(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Bert wrote

Quote:
Definately not. Despite some issues as posted here there are too many huge advantages not to use digital.


Hello Bert,
Thanks for the encouragement. Will persevere. Smile

Jay
Offline GSRR  
#49 Posted : 18 August 2011 03:00:34(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Bert,

How has this fix been working so far, any more issues with the 39441?


Ray, did you ever try this fix?



r/Thomas


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Offline applor  
#50 Posted : 18 August 2011 04:21:04(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I did this fix for the E10 (39110) and worked a treat, no problems.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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