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Offline Frankenbahner  
#1 Posted : 28 March 2010 15:39:37(UTC)
Frankenbahner


Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 625
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
In the 1950ies, Southern German firms like Faller released their first cardboard kits.

These were the first real model buildings, which soon replaced the old tin plate buildings, which mainly included rail-specific structures like station buildings, sigal towers or engine sheds. The cardboard structures, however, then included also town houses, churches, post offices, farms etc. The old tin plate structures were a relic from those days when miniature trains were only a toy for children, they did't look very realistic.

The cardboard buildings were fitted with some kind of plaster, consisting of semolina. The somolina was applied on a layer of white glue.

As I had got several of these old models on flea markets and Ebay over the years, I decided to try some own experiments in early 2009. As the experiments prooved to be successful, I "plastered" several houses from my collection with semolina.

I have prepared a little description how to do this now, which has been published on my webseite.

http://www.frankenbahn.de

Go to "Model Train Corner", and then to "Scratchbuilding Of Model Houses". There, you will find des instruction, as well as a description of the assembly of an old Faller B-254 cardboard kit which I got on Ebay in mid-2009.

Edited by moderator 02 November 2011 05:59:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 29 March 2010 13:35:14(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Florian,
That is an interesting technique.
Is that semolina the same as you buy at the grocer (like a grain product)?
In Australia, I think it may attract mice and cockroaches.

I also like working in cardboard, it can be very quick.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Frankenbahner  
#3 Posted : 29 March 2010 15:45:42(UTC)
Frankenbahner


Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 625
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
The material I used was exactly the grain product from the grocer.

There also seem to be no problems when the material is aging. I acquired my first original Vaupe (another manufacturer from that era) house with that semolina plaster in the late 1990ies on a flea market, an original model from the 1950ies. The semolina material was in a good condition then, and it is still now.

I think the semolina is getting “sealed” by the glue and the paint in some way. However, perhaps problems could occur when storing such models in rooms with damp air.

Regards,
Florian
H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
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Offline Frankenbahner  
#4 Posted : 01 August 2011 00:55:39(UTC)
Frankenbahner


Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 625
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
Allthough it's an old topic, I'm going the add a few pictures of houses I have treated this way in the meantime.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Regards,
Florian
H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
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Offline Chris6382chris  
#5 Posted : 01 August 2011 01:51:25(UTC)
Chris6382chris

United States   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,215
Location: Middle of the US
Nice looking buildings. I might give it a try. Thanks for the pictures.

Chris
Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 02 November 2011 09:37:22(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Florian,

This is a very important thread you've posted here.

As you know there are several members, not mentioning any names, who are using their last dollar to buy trains (and for some mysterious reasons always find more money somehow)
To use Semolina on their model houses may stops them short of starvation if it ever would come to the crunch.

I can see the effected parties lying in the dog house chewing on cardboard boxes.

There are 2 other names which come to mind: polenta and sago.

Kimball wrote: mice and cochraches

You would get a bit of a shock when suddenly you can see a face looking out the window or leaving the front door.
Cockroaches however could be more of an intruder than mice, wouldn't like to have a layout with semolina in or around a wheat farm.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline biedmatt  
#7 Posted : 02 July 2014 23:27:46(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hello Florian, I tried your link above, but got an access forbidden message. Must I do something special to view it?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline kweekalot  
#8 Posted : 03 July 2014 07:21:08(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,435
Location: Holland
Pity the link doesn't work.
On some German forums you can find many threads how to restore the 'Griessputz' (Semolina plaster) on these 1950s models, like this one: LINK

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Offline MalinAC  
#9 Posted : 03 July 2014 08:53:59(UTC)
MalinAC

Ireland   
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH
I dont see how you could use any food product on a layout without causing a health hazard. It only needs one small part to be exposed and it spells trouble. This is a no no for me . Im starting to get all sorts of visions of little nasty creatures running around the layout. Take care EddieScared Scared Scared
Offline Angus  
#10 Posted : 03 July 2014 09:39:18(UTC)
Angus

South Africa   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: Johannesburg
Originally Posted by: MalinAC Go to Quoted Post
I dont see how you could use any food product on a layout without causing a health hazard. It only needs one small part to be exposed and it spells trouble. This is a no no for me . Im starting to get all sorts of visions of little nasty creatures running around the layout. Take care EddieScared Scared Scared


I am sure a few black suited Men In Black (Preiser) agents will help with the bug\alien problemLOL LOL LOL

Offline MalinAC  
#11 Posted : 03 July 2014 09:45:35(UTC)
MalinAC

Ireland   
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH
I dont think even Will Smith could get rid of all the nastys in my visions.Scared Scared Scared
Offline steventrain  
#12 Posted : 03 July 2014 14:30:46(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,594
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Hello Florian, I tried your link above, but got an access forbidden message. Must I do something special to view it?


I have the same too.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Frankenbahner  
#13 Posted : 04 July 2014 08:22:31(UTC)
Frankenbahner


Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 625
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
Unforutenately I had to delete my homepage after it had been "infected" by a virus attack.

Only a few weeks before, my computer had suffered a complete breakdown, which had destroyed the backup.

I'm trying to restore as much of the page as possible, but I didn't always have enough time to do that. In fact, model train projects consumed much of my free time. Work on the Primex page has already far advanced, I hope I'll be able to bring it back within the next few weeks.

Sorry for the bad news.

Regards,
Florian
H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
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Offline biedmatt  
#14 Posted : 04 July 2014 11:18:35(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Good luck rebuilding your files Florian.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline biedmatt  
#15 Posted : 07 July 2014 04:06:09(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I have copied and pasted this part of a reply from Marco in another thread to this thread since this part of his reply really fits here and will put all info for the plaster in one place.

Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
Hi Matt,

The appearance of these wooden models stands or falls with the Griessputz. (the plaster).
Honestly I saw so many 'not so good' models because ​​the Griessputz wasn't applied very well and/or the used grain was to big.
If you look at the original 'Fertigmodellen' (the models built by Faller) you see that the grains are very tiny and that's how it must look.
You can find semolina in various sizes (600 to 1000um, 475 to 600 µm and 300 and 475 µm).
You need white wheat Griess (semolina) and not the more yellowish colored 'Durum' semolina that is common in Italy, Turkey, Marocco....

I've never heard that it attracts mice or cockroaches when applied on models (because the griess is encapsulated with plaster).
The plaster is composed of white glue, posterpaint ( aka gouache) and Griess and I have also read that back in the days Faller also added sodium silicate. (aka waterglass).

Marco


Hello Marco,
So many questions. The plaster is a mix of glue, poster paint and wheat Griess? Any particular recipe or percentage? Is this plaster then brushed onto the structure? TIA

Perhaps this thread should also be moved to the Faller section?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline kweekalot  
#16 Posted : 07 July 2014 11:46:36(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,435
Location: Holland
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post


So many questions. The plaster is a mix of glue, poster paint and wheat Griess? Any particular recipe or percentage? Is this plaster then brushed onto the structure?


No, this is how it must be done to achieve perfect results;

The white or colored posterpaint must be mixed with the white glue and then some water must be added, so the mix can be easy spread with a paintbrush over the walls.

The doors and windows must NOT be mounted when you apply the mixture on the walls.

It is also very important that you apply only a thin layer of the posterpaint-glue mix on the walls.
To much will make the surface uneven (and that can not be restored afterwards !!).

When you have applied the mixture on the wall(s), you must generously scatter the griess through a sieve on the walls.
Important is that you do this (relatively) quick because the cartonboard sucks up the glue-posterpaint mixture real fast.

You must shake off the excess griess by flipping the wall up site down.
Then the wall with the griess on it, must be pressed 'hard' on a level surface.

The Griess that has fallen on the window openings must be removed (with hobby knife or such).

When the walls are dry, you must apply a second layer of the posterpaint-glue mixture on the walls with a brush so that the whole is fixed well.


Marco
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Offline kweekalot  
#17 Posted : 07 July 2014 12:00:05(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,435
Location: Holland
BTW, you can see this methode used on German forums by Jörg T (timmi68), for instance on his station Schonblick (B-103) with an astonishing result.

See here: LINK

UserPostedImage
(Photo from 'timmi68')
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Offline biedmatt  
#18 Posted : 07 July 2014 14:08:08(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hello Marco,
That really does look nice. Jörg must be an old hand at it.

I'm going to try and register again at the site you have linked. I'll let you know if I need some help.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline waorb  
#19 Posted : 07 July 2014 14:35:29(UTC)
waorb

Brazil   
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Brazil
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
BTW, you can see this methode used on German forums by Jörg T (timmi68), for instance on his station Schonblick (B-103) with an astonishing result.


Wonderful result!!! Drool

Cheers,

Walter
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Offline MS 800  
#20 Posted : 07 July 2014 23:43:10(UTC)
MS 800

Germany   
Joined: 31/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 36
Location: Ostalb, Württemberg
A very nice method in order to emulate rough real plaster how it is often used in southern Gemany.

It is smooth plaster enriched with little stones of grit of 2 up to 5mm, which, when dry, stick out of the surface a little bit. I think, in real life this is applied more or less how kweekalot describes it for cardboard walls, only everything 87 times bigger - and except for the part where it comes to pressing the wall flat, since a brick wall won't distort or become undulated getting wet.

And - MalinAC is not totally wrong speaking of cockroaches or their like. As long as the buildings sit on a layout which is in use, everything apparently is fine, since under adverse conditions the trains won't run and the tinplate and other iron and steel parts would rust heavily. But once stored away and out of control things tend to get worse. Humidity will almost inevitably rise, fungi will start to disintegrate the white glue and before long little critters will nourish happily not only on the "plaster" but also on the cardboard itself. This is the main reason why these buildings often are in a more than deplorable state and have to be resored with much skill and phantasy.

Polystyrene is not harmed in a comparable way - but it alas is furnished with an amount of charm which leans rather to the moderate side compared to properly built cardboard/semolina homes. And if one pimps up the PS plates with weathering dust and its like - when no longer cared for in a proper way, even on these plates the fungus problem will manifest itself.

Take care

MS 800
When we were kids we enjoyed our tinplate trains rattling over tinplate tracks - nowadays they're in need of sound decoders.
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Offline MACER  
#21 Posted : 05 August 2014 01:28:31(UTC)
MACER

Argentina   
Joined: 12/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 137
Location: DISTRITO FEDERAL, BUENOS AIRES
Hi Florian

Your job is interesting, in the reality in Argentine the walls with this system of coat are named SALPICREN, ir very rustic but is good for models.

The SEMOLIN is a derivated of SEMOLA is a product of corn., i eat an very food named POLENTA.

For your Works i see good taste and quality.

Regards
MACER
Offline Baron von Zach  
#22 Posted : 04 March 2015 12:52:37(UTC)
Baron von Zach

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Stockport, England
Please note that semolina sold in England is much finer grained than it is in Germany, it's almost as fine as flour over here.
If you use semolina sold in England for your little houses, the effect wouldn't be half as realistic, as if you used German semolina.
So my tip is to buy a pack of it on your next holiday to Germany. I guess a kilo pack will last you a lifetime,
unless you want to eat some of it, that is. Porridge made from German semolina has a totally different texture and I actually
quite like it that way.

I bet for the buildings one could use polenta just as well, though.
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