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Offline H0  
#151 Posted : 19 December 2010 21:53:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
As far as I understand, Pluta offered the creditors a larger repayment than they would get if Märklin was liquidated.
I understood that creditors will remain creditors (not shareholders) receiving annual repayments until Märklin gets sold when they'll get another repayment.
Kingsbridge owns a company that owns a company that owns a company that owns Märklin Holding (under insolvency) that owns Gebr. Märklin & Cie. (under insolvency).
If Gebr. Märklin was liquidated, it couldn't repay all creditors and Märklin Holding wouldn't get any penny.
IANAL but I guess Kingsbridge is currently out of this business (at least as long as Märklin cannot repay all creditors).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nilkram58  
#152 Posted : 19 December 2010 22:06:50(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece
Tom,
I believe Kingsbridge Private Equity Fund is not into the equation anymore. The creditors, somehow, either they get paid or get a haircut, would have some sort of underwriting of the shares of the company, so, they could exercise to an extend some management rights.
Dave,
your comments are valid. Activities not producing significant profits should be eliminated, and/or sold. Does anybody has any idea of how is the percentage breakdown of the sales w.r.t. HO/1/Z/Trix/LGB ???

Akis
Offline H0  
#153 Posted : 19 December 2010 22:16:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
David Dewar wrote:
I would sell Trix and LGB if anybody would buy the brands.

Märklin's market share is 13 % worldwide, 1 % in the USA, 50 % in Germany, 65 % in the Netherlands.
To me it seems they'll try to use the good reputation of the brand Märklin to sell more Trix stuff in countries where the 2-rail system dominates (but I admit I was just reading between the lines).

LGB is German's market leader in gauge 2m (60%), Trix is close to the top in gauge N in Germany (27 %), Märklin is market leader in gauge Z in Europe. Judging from the insolvency plan, it seems that Märklin will continue with all these brands.

The insolvency plan doesn't provide information about the profits/deficits individual gauges make (at least not in the plan I have).

I hope all goes well on December 21 and I'll look forward to the new items brochure next year.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nilkram58  
#154 Posted : 19 December 2010 22:28:05(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece
Tom,
thanks for the numbers and info.
Akis
Offline Webmaster  
#155 Posted : 19 December 2010 22:34:50(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
H0 wrote:

I hope all goes well on December 21 and I'll look forward to the new items brochure next year.

I am sure all of us hope it all goes well, and that the 2011 new items brochure will be available in the same spirit so we can hail & fail the new model selections as usual... Smile
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline jeehring  
#156 Posted : 20 December 2010 00:14:49(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
H0 wrote:
David Dewar wrote:
I would sell Trix and LGB if anybody would buy the brands.

Märklin's market share is 13 % worldwide, 1 % in the USA, 50 % in Germany, 65 % in the Netherlands.
...(...)....



I had some numbers from German syndicates around the years 2006/2007......showing something very different from yours . I don't think there were major changes in terms of market shares since this period, surely not in the direction of a growing market....
I'm wondering how having 50% of German Market , of BENELUX + Northern europe market excepted Norwege.....could lead to have 13% of world wide Train Model market....(knowing that the 2 main national markets of the world are USA and Germany...)

(Only Switzerland & Austria could be taken into consideration. France = peanuts, Spain = peanuts, Italy = peanuts.....Japan & Great Britain were the unknow of my data...)? Are your numbers taking into account "all scale + all countries in the world "...is there some new emergent MRR national markets in this world ?....

Offline David Dewar  
#157 Posted : 20 December 2010 00:38:11(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
If Marklin is the leader for z gauge .. does anyboby else do Z ?
As with most firms that go bust they still think they are doing the right thing and carry on as before then go out of business.
If Marklin does not change they will not be here in three years.
Hornby had to change to ensure continued profitability but then they are responsible to shareholders and the market where nobody outside management has any idea what Marklin are doing.

Anyway I look forward to some good news in a few days to at least ensure I have another year to carry on buying my Favourite Locos.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline I_love_Marklin_37538  
#158 Posted : 20 December 2010 00:44:23(UTC)
I_love_Marklin_37538


Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC)
Posts: 951
Location: ,
David Dewar wrote:
If Marklin is the leader for z gauge .. does anyboby else do Z ?
As with most firms that go bust they still think they are doing the right thing and carry on as before then go out of business.
If Marklin does not change they will not be here in three years.
Hornby had to change to ensure continued profitability but then they are responsible to shareholders and the market where nobody outside management has any idea what Marklin are doing.

Anyway I look forward to some good news in a few days to at least ensure I have another year to carry on buying my Favourite Locos.

dave

There is a American range in Z Guage
Offline nevw  
#159 Posted : 20 December 2010 01:08:06(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
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Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
There is a growing market in the US for Z Gauge and many manufacturers and in some ways are doing a better Job than Marklin.
One of the Z gauge movement leaders in the US is a memeber here.
If I remember correctly I read that in the US they have produced decoders for Z so they can go digital.
Miniaturisation at its best.

NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline H0  
#160 Posted : 20 December 2010 01:40:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Here are the figures from the insolvency plan.

MRR market 2008 by country in mio. Euro based on dealer prices.

Country; Market size; Märklin share
US; 240; 1 %
DE; 186; 50 %
JP; 77; 1 %
UK; 30; 2 %
AT; 16; 16 %
NL; 15; 65 %
FR; 13; 20 %
CH; 11; 44 %
BE/LU; 8; 39 %
CN; 3; 1 %

The countries listed here cover 2/3 of the global MRR market (about 300 mio. Euro not listed).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#161 Posted : 20 December 2010 05:17:09(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
The major stakeholders or creditors are the banks (3) and are supporting the scheme with another 1350 smaller creditors. The are at the frontline of receiving the biggest payment under the payback scheme.

Pluta is offering them a round 10% payment of each debt in due course.

There will be a new CEO at Märklin, Pluta will stay on and the banks will be part of the new consortium.

One newspaper wrote: Märklin will never be able to be sold, Mr. Pluta rejected this statement outright.

Märklin will have to be run with the tightest financial scrutiny and the banks, including Mr. Pluta will be determined to get as much money out of Märklin as they can.
It will put the smaller creditors, depending of how the insolvency saga is structered, for further repayments, if any, at a disadvantage because the banks are still or will be part of Märklin and therefore may not receive anymore debt repayments (banks) but can claim fees as long as the company is alive.
The moment you're signing an agreement you can't complain afterwards about it, how the smaller creditors got tricked, by excepting their share of an 1 off insolvency repayment.

Unless there are further payments made to the smaller stakeholders in the future is another subject all together and the amount it will consist of, depending on the overall turnover of the company.
The banks, in my opinion, if the insolvency issue is passed, will always benefit from the overall money repayment scheme, getting as much money out of the company, so long its cash flow capital is sufficient to keep Märklin trading and not causing any weakness in the overall operation.

Kingsbridge was accused of charging extremely high consultancy fees and this happened over a short period of time, the current and hopefully the new bosses will stretch these fees over a longer period of time. not to upset any disgruntled, what would be than, previous creditors.

Although Mr.Pluta wasn't able to find a buyer, to get the company out of insolvency, has to be in my mind, somewhere in this whole rescue package, a sweetener, to get the major creditors on his side., it won't be a present of model trains for Christmas, nor will it be short holiday in the Bahamas, so the only thing left is, money and banks love money, especially our money.

Another proposal made by Mr. Pluta was the Superannuation fund, while under the insolvency status, the money, as I understood it, has to be re - negotiated with the Superannuation board, partially being repaid.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline nilkram58  
#162 Posted : 20 December 2010 16:31:18(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece
Looking at Tom's figures, about market sizes and Märklin share per country, one can realize where are the sales weakness of the Company. I would have put all Company's effort to increase penetration in the biggest market of the world, i.e. in the US market. For a company like Marklin, to have such non-existing presence in the US market, is problematic. So, if what Nev is saying about Z scale in the US is true, then I do not think that Maerklin is thinking of shrinking the Z scale products, but in the contrary, we might see more Z products ( and also HO products) targeting the American market.
Akis

Offline David Dewar  
#163 Posted : 20 December 2010 22:00:43(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
If an American firm is doing well with Z then Marklin can forget sales there. Americans will buy their own product just as people do in the UK. Marklin sells HO three rail as there is hardly any competition and that is where they can increase sales if they get the right management.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline H0  
#164 Posted : 20 December 2010 22:53:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
David Dewar wrote:
Marklin sells HO three rail as there is hardly any competition and that is where they can increase sales if they get the right management.

Märklin's share in the German 3-rail market is 90 %. So they can grow 11 % if they kick Roco, Fleischmann, Brawa, Piko, Hornby and the rest out of the German AC market (assuming the German AC market will not shrink further in the next few years).
There's not much room to grow.
There's no competion in the 3-rail track market, but Piko offers many cheap 3-rail Hobby locos while RoFl regularly have special AC offers and AC clearance sales.
RoFl claim to be the innovation leader (a title formerly claimed by Märklin) with digitally controlled doors and high-tech smoke generators.

A quote from the insolvency plan:
"Unter dem Dach der attraktiven Marke Märklin lassen sich sowohl in den europäischen als auch in den überseeischen Ländern entsprechende 2-Leiter-Produkte einführen, wenn die erforderlichen Investitionen in den Markt getätigt werden."

Hand-optimized google translation:
"Under the umbrella of the attractive brand Märklin 2-rail products can be introduced in both the European and overseas countries, if the necessary investments are made in the market."

Giving up the name Trix in favour of the name Märklin could be a bad move on the German 2-rail market, but could help overseas.
There is "Liliput by Bachmann", why not "Trix by Märklin"?

We have to face it: there are more 3-railers switching to 2-rail than vice versa.
Therefore there should be 3-rail starter sets with competitive prices. This year there are no Märklin starter sets in the food stores in Germany; Pluta writes that those companies would not make deals with a company under insolvency (they request three year warranty from the manufacturer, so they only contract manufacturers with a 3-year perspective). That's another reason to get Märklin out of insolvency.
Starter sets for people who currently have no MRR: for old men to buy from themselfs and for old men to buy for their grand-children (and some will be bought by not-so-old men for their children).

Some say Primex should come back. Primex is known by less than 10 % of Germans, Trix is known by less than 40 % of Germans, Märklin is known by more than 80 % of Germans.

Märklin could grow on the UK market, too. Did they make any UK models after the Warship loco?
Is the TGV part of the plan to grow in Europe? I hope it works.
Maybe they should follow this forum: they have fans in OZ, NZ, and Africa. Maybe they should keep an eye on these markets (and listen to the woes of unhappy Insider Club members).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nilkram58  
#165 Posted : 20 December 2010 23:01:40(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece
Very well said, Tom!! I can only agree with you.
Akis
Offline David Dewar  
#166 Posted : 21 December 2010 00:31:23(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Hi Tom. Marklin will not break into the UK market. This would require new tooling for UK outline models and coaches and wagons (hundreds of them) They have no cash for this. UK model rail folk will not pay Marklin prices. UK dealers no longer stock the product at any reasonable level and have no intention of doing so.
Marklin could however do good business here selling German and Swiss outline if they supported dealers and reduced their price to the dealers to allow them to compete.
Marklin folk like me just buy from Germany but there are not many of us. The last model rail show I was at did not even have one overseas layout.
I have no idea what the state of Brawa is but they produce some great stuff (prices way beyond Marklin)but I presume they sell OK as they are still going and producing nice new items. I can buy here in the UK at almost the same price as in Germany which I cant with Marklin.
The other problem here is model shops will not deal with a firm which has gone bust and will not pay up front. This means they need an agent in the UK who takes a profit thus increasing the price.
Hornby are of course a different gauge (OO) and they sell well in the UK where younger folk are buyers as their product is available in large stores as well as model shops.
There is a big difference in people like us who love the Marklin brand and others who just enjoy running a model railway. I am happy to buy from Germany where most just want to visit a shop and see what they are buying and get advise. With Marklin this is not possible in the UK.
If Marklin wants to make new models for other countries where is the cash coming from?
I am aware that folk on the forum like to talk up Marklin as I do regarding their product etc but when it comes to the Marklin firm itself then that is a different matter .. you dont go bust by being well run and doing the right thing .. so now must be the time for change and a new future for the firm.


dave

Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#167 Posted : 21 December 2010 01:29:42(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Marklin don't necessarily have to make UK outline models to break into the UK market. Witness the popularity of Marklin in NZ, with the existing inventory. What they do need to do is to market their product better, and make it easier for dealers to set up and sell their product. I would think that many MRR fans in other countries would buy Marklin if product was priced more competitively. Dealers I have spoken to here say they won't sell Marklin because it is too expensive.

Tom makes some well put points, I hope Marklin are reading them!
Offline TimR  
#168 Posted : 21 December 2010 02:24:04(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Re: Breaking into other markets

There are quite a few challenges..

First, success possibility of Marklin is hugely dependant on the popularity of modelling of European railways as opposed to what is locally preferred. Despite strong local market for Marklins like here in NZ; the majority market is dominated by GB brands (Bachmann, Hornby, etc). This is probably the same case with the US market too. Marketing Marklin equals to marketing European railroad modelling at the same time. And people will choose between 2-rail and 3-rail; most likely that they'll choose 2-rail.
Potentially, when you start talking 2-rail, inevitably you start losing market to Fl-Ro, or the cheaper Piko.

Two, pricing and availability - as argued above. The cheapest European online dealer price (ex-VAT) for Marklin products are still premium compared to off-the-shelf price of many popular local brand.
Markets outside Europe in general are skeptical about paying the money that European brands are demanding... not when the local competition are China-made, plastic, cheap, and analogue; which at the same time also getting better.
Add the local dealer's price and you probably have a super premium product for the really top end of H0 market.

Third, again I'll argue packaging of Marklins. While great for beginners, rigid packaging (we think we know what is best for you) doesn't work when you start collecting.
Local skeptics will ask,
'Why would an MRR manufacturer decide for me what each and certain model should have sound/feature or not?'
'Why would an MRR manufacturer force to use an MFX decoder that I don't really want?'
'Why can't I choose for myself whether to ran digital or analogue?'

To sum up:
.... you need to buy European
.... you're telling the market you make the best model
(even if more expensive and 3-rail)
.... then you have to convince everyone to buy digital
.... and that your digital system is the best there is in the market.

Those are a few marketing problems packaged carefully in one box. You are facing different competition at every stage.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline mmrcnzjohn  
#169 Posted : 21 December 2010 02:40:58(UTC)
mmrcnzjohn

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: ,
David Dewar wrote:
Hornby are of course a different gauge (OO)


00 is a scale (1:76) not a gauge

Kinda ironic that they use 16.5mm track which is not the scale 4' 8 1/2" for 1:76. P4 track is scale at 18.83mm

John
Offline TimR  
#170 Posted : 21 December 2010 04:23:32(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Another issue:

Trix 2-rail or Markin 3-rail: The not so simple life..

Now Marklin's drive to lead the way (in Digital, innovation, whatever) had inadverently opened a widening gap in what is demanded / expected in DC and AC market respectively.

As a result, though on the paper Trix looks to be the easy way to expand into the DC market; it is now growingly become a strain for marketing and development cost.

Take the Sinus motor technology. Ground breaking concept... if used with digital, ran perfectly...
But because much of DC is still largely analogue, the best of Marklin's technology got the cold shoulder response in the DC market. This forces Marklin to re-tool their Trix lineup to use can motors.

DC market is also not primarily driven by archetypical Marklinist-concept such as metal body, motor in the boiler (for steamers), and typically shuns and mocks those "noisy Marklin motors" (DCM)..
They don't mind plastic body, so long as they're super-detailed. They don't mind weaker pulling power, so long as the motor is quiet, smooth, & cheap. Above all, to hell with OEM decoders...

As a result, Marklin was starting to build DC-specific models for Trix. Had the bangkruptcy not happened, Trix would have been greatly expanded now with the new s3/6 w/motor in tender and 1/87-scale length ICE-1. Other models would have certain to follow after that...

But in all, it would've been a costly exercise for the company.

OTOH; Roco, Fleischmann, Piko, HAG takes universal concepts that had already gained wider acceptance in the DC market, and kept it honest. They're offering DC-styled package like 1/87-scale length coaches, super detailed model, etc - in short, demand of these (if any) had never been fulfilled anyway by Marklin.

They played it safe; staying loyal to their base DC analogue customers.. while taking potshots with digital innovations to annoy Marklin.

Then Marklin tried the other way, making models that fit both.. like this year's BR110, Re4/4 I, or the new TGV. Now a portion of Marklin customers hit back... 'why didn't they put SDS into those models? They'd certainly ran better.'
So it's a dilemma that only Marklin has to face...

In other words, it's cheaper and easier to be a primarily DC-company that offers 3-rail product, rather than Marklin selling DC items under Trix. Other companies know that they're not going to dominate 3-rail; just selling enough to make it worthwile...

Yes, we all loved Marklin down in this forum. But there is a greater market outside Marklin 3-rail out there that still need convincing that Marklin products are great/superior/whatever...

Which one would Marklin use (as asked above)? Trix or Marklin? 2-rail or 3-rail?
2-rail means a great deal of compromise with other markets - while still trying to be distinctive.
3-rail may mean being too different, too rigid, maybe even unprototypical (look at those wipers!)

Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline TomB  
#171 Posted : 21 December 2010 09:35:31(UTC)
TomB


Joined: 08/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 412
Location: Asker, Norway
H0 wrote:
David Dewar wrote:

I hope all goes well on December 21 and I'll look forward to the new items brochure next year.

The meeting in Göppinger Amtsgericht will start at 10:00 this morning.
Tom Blikstad
HO, german/swiss trains, Märklin K+C, ECoS I+II,
Viessmann, Kühn, MBTronik, WinDigipet 2012, WinTrack 11
Offline H0  
#172 Posted : 21 December 2010 10:42:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
David Dewar wrote:
Marklin will not break into the UK market. This would require new tooling for UK outline models and coaches and wagons (hundreds of them)

I didn't think of such an approach.

But Märklin could e. g. make a model of Class 66 which is in use by many European companies.

Sure, Märklin is for the "Continental" MRR fan and they can't change this in reasonable time. Some British models could be the icing on the cake for British MRR fans interested in continental rail roads (a Class 66 with full sound, bells and whistles would be nice to show to grand-children and visitors who are not interested in Prussian steamers).
(Mehano's Class 66 sounds great, so Märklin must not make the mistake of releasing a Class 66 with the Ludmilla sound project. Too often the delivered models didn't match the announcements. The uproar of disappointed customers is bad for the reputation and for next year's pre-orders.)

They have some Trix models in stock not yet marketed by Märklin: E 19.0, detailed BR 185, full-length RAm, ...
IMHO Märklin should offer a Hobby-185 and a detailed 185 at the same time, but they must find a way to communicate this to the customers.
I'm not sure if the RAm should come. I bet the E 19.0 will come ...

Many 2-railers loudly and proudly announce that they only buy full-length coaches. But maybe they're just the tip of the ice cube. Roco still makes 1:100 coaches, Fleischmann used to make 28.2 cm coaches.
So I presume there is a market for shortened 2-rail coaches. No chance to become market leader if you only serve a niche market - but serving a niche market without development costs can still increase profitability and total market share.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline nilkram58  
#173 Posted : 21 December 2010 14:45:01(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece
O.K. I agree that Marklin should expand to other countries outside Germany, although the figures for the various Country markets do not represent the correct market shares, since a lot of non-German customers are buying their products through German dealers. I would say, that a more accurate representation of customers distribution per country and regions would be the percentage of the Insider Members per country!! This figure would be very interesting to see!!
Tom, do you have any numbers??
Akis
Offline nilkram58  
#174 Posted : 21 December 2010 14:57:49(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece

GREAT NEWS !!! Märklin out of insolvency !!!

As far as I understand (please verify the translation), the Company is repaying 33 millions out of the total 93 millions euro debt to the creditors, and also with some debt to equity conversion, the new owners now are: Kreissparkasse Göppingen, Landesbank Baden-Württemberg, and Goldman Sachs.
Can somebody with better German verify please ???

http://www.tagesanzeiger...en-Banken/story/29200694
Offline nilkram58  
#175 Posted : 21 December 2010 15:29:22(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece
It is interesting that 99,8% out of the 1,349 creditors, voted in favor of Mr. Pluta's proposal !!! I think Pluta will be in the Hall of Marklin Fame !!!!!! Congatulations to Pluta !!! Great Job!!

Akis
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#176 Posted : 21 December 2010 16:57:04(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
It seems like the banks are taking over the ownership in exchange for the debts. It is not an ideal situation, since the banks sooner or later will be selling the company again. It is not the core business for any bank to own a model railroad manufacturer, but the brand Märklin is still strong, and no banker wants to be the bad guy who ends such a legendary company.

The end of the article says that a major task now is to attract children to the MRR hobby again. Märklin certainly has tried this before, but I hope they don't forget about the financially stronger grandpas as well!
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline RayF  
#177 Posted : 21 December 2010 17:17:56(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Good news, I think.

The banks will find it easier to find a buyer for a company which is now on a firm financial footing. I also agree with the final statement. Marklin must cater for children (and people with less income) and not just for collectors. To this aim I think the Hobby program is a good start, but it must be expanded with more items within the price range of young people. 10 euro wagons are just right for "pocket money" purchases, and 50 to 100 euro locos make good birthday and Christmas presents. 400 euro locomotives with full sound and functions are totally beyond their reach.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline jeehring  
#178 Posted : 21 December 2010 17:47:21(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
H0 wrote:
Here are the figures from the insolvency plan.

MRR market 2008 by country in mio. Euro based on dealer prices.

Country; Market size; Märklin share
US; 240; 1 %
DE; 186; 50 %
JP; 77; 1 %
UK; 30; 2 %
AT; 16; 16 %
NL; 15; 65 %
FR; 13; 20 %
CH; 11; 44 %
BE/LU; 8; 39 %
CN; 3; 1 %

The countries listed here cover 2/3 of the global MRR market (about 300 mio. Euro not listed).


....you recently have change the USA number, did you ? (300 to 240 ?)
Offline Jay  
#179 Posted : 21 December 2010 17:59:59(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
TimR wrote:
Another issue:

Which one would Marklin use (as asked above)? Trix or Marklin? 2-rail or 3-rail?
2-rail means a great deal of compromise with other markets - while still trying to be distinctive.
3-rail may mean being too different, too rigid, maybe even unprototypical (look at those wipers!)



Actually, 3-rail does exist in prototype. See link below:
http://www.railsoft.dk/punktkontakter.htm

Who knows, it may become the norm with advancements in technology?

Look at inverters for AC motors.

Märklin needs to make their product more affordable in order to become more mainstream. Their current positioning is too niche for the global market.
Offline H0  
#180 Posted : 21 December 2010 18:19:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
jeehring wrote:
....you recently have change the USA number, did you? (300 to 240?)

The Pluta document reads 240 for USA and I didn't change it (IIRC).
The European market is listed with 300.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline David Dewar  
#181 Posted : 21 December 2010 22:18:24(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
kgsjoqvist wrote:
It seems like the banks are taking over the ownership in exchange for the debts. It is not an ideal situation, since the banks sooner or later will be selling the company again. It is not the core business for any bank to own a model railroad manufacturer, but the brand Märklin is still strong, and no banker wants to be the bad guy who ends such a legendary company.

The end of the article says that a major task now is to attract children to the MRR hobby again. Märklin certainly has tried this before, but I hope they don't forget about the financially stronger grandpas as well!


..............................................................................

Fully agree. Mr Pluta has failed in his task to sell the business and unless he has given up work as an administrator to run a model rail firm I can see no reason for him to stay on.
As said the brand is strong and Banks do not like to end this type of firm due to bad publicity but if they can sell Marklin and get their cash then they will.
Strong management with a quality product will help but I dont see any buyers on the horizon.
Good starter sets for the kids and quality models and controllers for us older guys will do fine but those should be in HO gauge and further new itmes for C track (Flex) is essential.

heres to the future


dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Webmaster  
#182 Posted : 21 December 2010 22:27:05(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
In some way, I hope Hr Pluta will continue to run it with the blessing from the banks for a while... He seems to understand the business of little trains...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline steventrain  
#183 Posted : 21 December 2010 22:40:03(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
I think there is still meeting tomorrow - Märklin creditors decide on bankruptcy plan.

Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline nilkram58  
#184 Posted : 21 December 2010 22:52:31(UTC)
nilkram58

Greece   
Joined: 18/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Athens, Greece
Webmaster
Quote:
I hope Hr Pluta will continue to run it with the blessing from the banks for a while... He seems to understand the business of little trains.

The banks will not only keep Mr. Pluta, but they will also ...pray for him, in order to get their money back !!! I personally think that Pluta's achievement is magnificent, and nobody could predict such an outcome at the beginning of 2009. His restructuring plan has worked very well and very quick, and produced positive financial results which in turn, has restored completely the confidence among the lenders. The accepted haircut by almost 65% proves this point. The banks which are now shareholders might also get payments through dividents if profits are coming back in the balance sheet.

Akis
Offline Hemmerich  
#185 Posted : 21 December 2010 22:59:58(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
.

Edited by user 27 December 2010 23:50:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline GG1 Fan  
#186 Posted : 21 December 2010 23:20:03(UTC)
GG1 Fan


Joined: 30/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 725
Location: Stamford, CT USA
A few observations:

1) I haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about. :)

2) Marklin has only 50% of the German Market?? I thought is was close to a capitol offense to run anything other than Marklin in German homes??

3)Given C-Track and other Marklin innovatoins, there needs to be more effort done my Marklin and Marklin fans in the USA to promote Marklin here.

4) Going through my 35 year old brochures, some advertising being "The Greatest Train Shop in New York City", it's sad to see the decline of the hobby in the general NYC area.

5) How much do they want for 'Marklin'?? Could we all here pony enough $$ to buy the entire company?? The upside: We get to be Ultimate Marklin Insiders....any trains we want and the coolest layouts on the planet :)

6) Yeah, a $600+ (US) locomotive is WAY to expensive to attract new folks into the hobby. But, I have seen $230 starter sets....and that is VERY competitive with Playstation, et al.

Just my ramblings,
Paul
Offline David Dewar  
#187 Posted : 22 December 2010 00:52:27(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Hemmerich wrote:
kgsjoqvist wrote:
The end of the article says that a major task now is to attract children to the MRR hobby again. Märklin certainly has tried this before, but I hope they don't forget about the financially stronger grandpas as well!


One should hope that those grandpas are responsible to make this hobby and in particular the brand attractive for those children; besides paying for the bills.

posting 102


.....................................

Lutz. Good point. Where we can us older guys have to get the kids interested in the hobby. Now is the time with Christmas bringing train sets and other attractive items for the kids for us to ensure that the railway gets priority and we can convey all the signals and turnout decoders and different sound locos that can be added. Buy them something extra that can be added in the follwing weeks to keep things going .. including a building which we can help them build etc.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#188 Posted : 22 December 2010 00:53:20(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
Sorry to be a damp squib (Australian slang), but this topic was meant to be informative based on known facts, not a platform for opinions or speculation.

Mike said in first post:
Quote:
PLEASE DO NOT POST Commentary, Opinions or OT Messages here.



There is surely another topic, that can allow for speculation on the future, and the invariable advice for Marklin that springs from it.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline river6109  
#189 Posted : 22 December 2010 02:47:51(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
As stated above, banks don't own modeltrain producers in their core business structure.

I don't think the banks had an option.

Mr. Pluta didn't get people or investors to sign the dot and for the bank to receive approx 45% of their debt being repaid is more than walking away from it.
Mr.Pluta will stay on as an advisory person and most probably overseas the financial running of the company for a while.

One thing also has to be realized, the company tried to sell but didn't find a buyer or the asking price was too much for a company in insolvency or the bargain hunt for some investors wasn't attractive enough.

It is now waiting time and see what unfolds in the next 12 month if any innovative, exiting gadgets and models will turn up.

By not changing anything regarding available gauges or getting rid off any of them, is better to leave things as they are instead of making bold statements and more uncertainty regarding the position of Märklin as a whole.

The only fact we have so far is, Märklin will be out of insolvency by 1st January 2011 and any speculation what will happen in the near future is anybodies guess.
Although lot of supporters who felt sorry for the company and bought models during this crises may relax a bit and pull back their purchases unless Märklin is coming up with new innovative ideas in the following year.



John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Kevin Weis  
#190 Posted : 22 December 2010 05:48:55(UTC)
Kevin Weis


Joined: 19/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 128
Location: Maryland
A co-working today told me his son wanted an electric train for Christmas. He was floored by the request. A request for an electric train is almost unheard of nowdays. Very sad.
Offline H0  
#191 Posted : 22 December 2010 10:06:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
river6109 wrote:
One thing also has to be realized, the company tried to sell but didn't find a buyer or the asking price was too much for a company in insolvency or the bargain hunt for some investors wasn't attractive enough.

Märklin will now pay more than Euro 30 mio. to the creditors. This is a part of the Euro 40 mio. liquid money they have right now.
Mr. Pluta said he would have been dumb to sell Märklin for less than Euro 40 mio. to any investor. He said there were no higher offers (which is sad for us fans and maybe a bad sign).

Märklin plans to finish each of the coming five years with Euro 5+ mio. profit. Creditors shall receive interest and repayments every year.
If the plan works, Märklin will become more interesting for potential investors. It can pull itself by its own bootstraps out of the swamp if no investor comes.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline plavnostruev  
#192 Posted : 05 January 2011 17:30:10(UTC)
plavnostruev

United States   
Joined: 18/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 756
Location: New Jersey, USA
Here is official press release:

Insolvency proceedings of Gebr. Märklin & Cie. GmbH

Creditors‘ meeting approves of insolvency plan.

Thanks to the past 2 years’ good business, creditors receive immediate 33 mn €
payment


Göppingen, Germany, December 21, 2010. Out of all creditors with voting power, 99.8
percent have voted in favor of the insolvency plan at today’s creditors‘ meeting.
Abstentions were 0 percent. 0.2 percent voted against the approval.

The insolvency administrator Michael Pluta expects the plan to be set into effect as of
Jan 01, 2011. After today’s approval by the creditors, the only thing left required is the
approval by the financial authorities and by the city of Göppingen.

In the scope of this payment, the unsecured creditors receive approx. 10 percent of their
claims immediately. The plan also provides a 100 percent coverage of the remaining
claims if the company can be successfully sold. Pluta says that successful business
over the coming years will also provide a good and appropriate sales price for the
company. All stakeholders agree the investor process to be continued without any
pressure for selling.

Pluta emphasizes that this payment also includes the full severance scheme costs for
the employees who have left the company in 2009 and 2010.

The amount mentioned is available primarily because business operations during the
last two years, since the insolvency proceedings were opened, were constantly positive.
Pluta indicates this is a key requirement for the company’s stable future. Moreover,
stock overheads were sold continuously sold at reasonable price points. Stringent
claims management allowed for a sustainable reduction of uncollected receivables.
Pluta also says it has been helpful that no interest rates had to be paid to the financing
creditors during the insolvency, and that neither corporate income tax nor trade tax had
to be paid because there were corresponding allowances for losses.
According to Pluta, the provisions of the insolvency plan will result in all creditors being
in a far better position than if the company had been broken up; moreover, he stated
that all offers presented in 2009 would have led to a worse quota for the creditors.
Customers and staff Pluta explained that the customers‘ and dealers‘ loyalty, plus the entire Märklin staff’s
commitment, were key factors over the past two years for achieving this result, which
can fairly be called unique. The company now has the chance for continued and good
development, based on the medium-term business planning featured in the insolvency
plan.

Ernst & Young confirm Märklin is fit for the future
Märklin’s medium-term business planning builds on the actual figures for 2010 and
forecasts a continuous average annual growth in turnover of approximately 2.5 percent
over the next years. New business fields have been clearly defined for this purpose as
well. Moreover, these years will see large investments into sales activities, production
and development. These plans were very thoroughly reviewed by an independent
auditing company. Ernst & Young have explicitly and completely confirmed the
feasibility of these plans.

Current situation
With respect to various press releases over the past few days, Pluta also addresses the
company’s current situation. He confirms that the original 2010 turnover plan with 115
mn € will not be achieved; he stresses that the analysis of the reasons for the weak
turnovers has revealed a broad range of insolvency-related causes. This was the
reason why the insolvency plan has been pushed during the recent months. Also, the
known problems with a supplier took some part away from 2010 turnovers.
After these difficulties were identified at an early stage, the company has adjusted their
entire cost structure to the reduced expected turnover in the second half of 2010. The
result of these efforts will be a guaranteed achievement of the originally planned EBIT
result. For 2010, Pluta expects the EBIT to be a good 9 mn €.

Future company structure
Different from the asset deal, which was originally planned to take place if the company
was sold, former Gebr. Märklin & Cie. GmbH will continue to legally exist when the
insolvency plan enters into effect. De jure, the company shall remain under the
supervision of Märklin Holding GmbH; factual owners shall be the creditors until the
company is being sold. The plan is to establish a three-person prudential committee to
support and to monitor the management; members of this board will include a
representative of the creditors as well as Michael Pluta and the hitherto managing
director, Dr. Kurt Seitzinger (as the chairman).

New Märklin will start with off with an equity ratio of almost 30 percent, which refers to a
balance sheet total of approx. 76 million €. This is significantly more than the majority of
medium-sized businesses in Germany have, Pluta says. In this context, Pluta points out
that at the time when insolvency was filed, the company had to state a negative equity
of 46 million €. Therefore, Märklin has managed to improve their equity situation by
approximately 70 million € in less than 2 years, Pluta proudly explains.
Finally, Pluta also states that only very few companies that slipped into insolvency ever
get such a great chance for a new beginning. One consequence of the fact that there is
no new, external owner is that no royalties or payments will have to be made to such an
owner. These amounts can now be fully used to secure the future.
The Märklin employees have clearly understood this chance, expressing so by 100
percent approval for the insolvency plan presented, despite the fact that they will have
to make significant contributions to the restructuring over the next 4 years. For this
purpose, a corresponding collective wage agreement was concluded already in August
this year.

Michael
Offline kevwill  
#193 Posted : 05 January 2011 17:54:01(UTC)
kevwill


Joined: 17/05/2008(UTC)
Posts: 153
Location: Norfolk, England
Great news at last.
Hopefully Marklin with the right management can start to consolidate and kickstart a new era for the company.With new investment, and highlighted area's for development and sales, the company we all love, can make a bright future for itself.

Kevin ThumpUp

My wife, children, and all my friends, think as i'm into Model trains, i'm very boring and should grow up. NEVER NEVER!!!
Offline petestra  
#194 Posted : 06 January 2011 00:11:03(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
This is fabulous news and I am so happy that they mentioned their loyal customers of which I am proud to say I am an old one. Not to mention all the $$$$$$ I have spent on their wonderful products in the last 1 1/2 years alone. Cheers,PeterThumpUp
Offline kimballthurlow  
#195 Posted : 06 January 2011 02:16:32(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Michael,

Thankyou for the translation and post.
May I ask what was the date of that press release?

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#196 Posted : 06 January 2011 02:54:16(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Keep buying lads, keep buying!
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#197 Posted : 06 January 2011 02:55:24(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
kimballthurlow wrote:
May I ask what was the date of that press release?



December 21, 2010
Offline Ranjit  
#198 Posted : 06 January 2011 05:10:24(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,008
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Great news! I am glad to see that Gebr. Märklin & Cie. GmbH is standing on its own two feet.

Thank you Michael for the translation.

Cheers,
Ranjit

Edited by user 06 January 2011 10:48:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
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Offline rhtastro  
#199 Posted : 06 January 2011 10:02:25(UTC)
rhtastro

United States   
Joined: 19/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,835
Location: Northern California,
It all sounds good to me. The future looks bright for Marklin. Hope to see some good new products in the next couple of years for us North American buyers.

Bob ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp
Robert's trains insured by Colt 45--Marklin Club of NorCal, Founder and Sole Member--- Robert's photos may be used as public domain-all copyrights waved
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"-T.Jefferson
Offline rrf  
#200 Posted : 06 January 2011 16:32:31(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
rhtastro wrote:
It all sounds good to me. The future looks bright for Marklin. Hope to see some good new products in the next couple of years for us North American buyers.

Bob


Hello,

Speaking of a bright future, I've heard rumours that Walthers only has another year left on their current US distribution contract. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

If true, I'm caught a number of millon short. It sure would be nice to have a large enough bank account to bid on the privledge of becoming the new distributer. I really can't think a better way to retire from the IT industry Wink
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
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