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Offline craigericks  
#1 Posted : 27 April 2015 02:10:52(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
Hello,
Brand new locomotive speeds up by itself going downhill both forward and in reverse. Put the locomotive on an incline with power on with throttle at 0 and can push the locomotive with finger to get it rolling by itself.
Using cs2. Locomotive registered itself, all functions work and runs fine on level track. Tried factory reset, but did not fix problem.
thanks in advance for any help
Craig
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
Offline GLI  
#2 Posted : 27 April 2015 03:29:20(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
Hello Craig

I do not have this locomotive, but from the product description and the locos characteristics you have described, I suspect it has the bevel gear drive gearbox first introduced by Marklin in the Wurtemburg C Klasse back in the early 1990's, fitted with a Faulhauber/Maxon coreless motor. If you place any of the locomotives fitted with this motor/ gearbox combination on the track, you can push them along the track with your finger and watch the wheels turn. If you put two such locos on the track (provided they are not fitted with decoders) and pull one along the track at a reasonable speed, the motor will generate sufficent back emf to power the motor in the other loco and it will follow along behind the loco being pulled. I discovered this when I acquired my first two C Klasse locos back in the 1990's. This motor/gearbox combination is arguable the best ever made by Marklin (the other contender being the Compact SDS motor) and in my opinion one of the best ever fitted to any model train locomotive ever made.

Because of this motor/gearbox combination, the weight of the locomotive could well cause it to roll down a slope it the grade is steep enough.

Regards
Geoff
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Offline Mark5  
#3 Posted : 27 April 2015 04:07:41(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hi Geoff,

I am really intrigued by this... especially handy for running two locos on one consist.
Do you know of any lists of Marklin locos with this kind of motor?
- Mark

Originally Posted by: GLI Go to Quoted Post

[.....]
I suspect it has the bevel gear drive gearbox first introduced by Marklin in the Wurtemburg C Klasse back in the early 1990's, fitted with a Faulhauber/Maxon coreless motor.
[.....]
This motor/gearbox combination is arguable the best ever made by Marklin (the other contender being the Compact SDS motor) and in my opinion one of the best ever fitted to any model train locomotive ever made.
[.....]



DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline craigericks  
#4 Posted : 27 April 2015 04:07:58(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
Hi Geoff,
Thanks for the reply. The problem is the locomotive cannot maintain a set speed when under power down the slope. Gravity causes it to accelerate until it reaches the bottom. Clearly something is not correct. I have never experienced this with any of my other locomotives.
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
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Offline Mark5  
#5 Posted : 27 April 2015 04:19:36(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hi Craig,

Is it possible to play with the CV settings?
If it is on a flat track does the speed manage to maintain the speed you set it at?
- Mark

Originally Posted by: craigericks Go to Quoted Post
Hi Geoff,
Thanks for the reply. The problem is the locomotive cannot maintain a set speed when under power down the slope. Gravity causes it to accelerate until it reaches the bottom. Clearly something is not correct. I have never experienced this with any of my other locomotives.


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline craigericks  
#6 Posted : 27 April 2015 04:32:14(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
Hii Mark
Yes, on level track it runs great. Don't know which cvs to change. I adjusted braking delay to meet my layout requirements as I do with all of my locomotives and only discovered the problem when I sent it to a hidden yard. All of my other locomotives maintain a constant speed when going down slopes.
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
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Offline Mark5  
#7 Posted : 27 April 2015 04:45:18(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hi Craig,
It is a curious case. I would find out first from the dealer if you cannot resolve it yourself before you send it back. ...and if the cost of sending and getting it fixed it worth it. My issue is that I now I many locos that need repair that I am either have not had time or made it a priority to address, or did not think it worth the cost to do so. Just thinking outloud here, but the thing is making sure you/I play some with a new acquisition before setting in the box for a few months before finding time to run it. Would help if we had a proper layout set up permanently for larger trains. Do you have working relationship with the dealer?
- Mark



Originally Posted by: craigericks Go to Quoted Post
Hii Mark
Yes, on level track it runs great. Don't know which cvs to change. I adjusted braking delay to meet my layout requirements as I do with all of my locomotives and only discovered the problem when I sent it to a hidden yard. All of my other locomotives maintain a constant speed when going down slopes.


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline craigericks  
#8 Posted : 27 April 2015 04:58:33(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
Hii Mark,
Received the locomotive yesterday. It's fresh out of the box. Was hoping someone would recognize the problem and there might be an easy fix.
Regards,
Craig
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
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Offline GLI  
#9 Posted : 27 April 2015 05:00:22(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
Hello Mark

In reading your post, I realized that I had left out one important piece of information. The situation where you put the two locos on the track only works where there is no power applied to the track. As soon as you apply power, both locos will of course begin to move. so it would be of little assistance when double heading a train.

I am unable to give you a definitive list of locos with this motor/gearbox combination, but the models that I know of are the Wuremburg C and K Klasse, the USRA 2-8-2Mikado, the BR 45 and possibly the streamlined model of the BR 05. I do not believe it would apply to the latest version of the BR 45, as though this loco have the right gearbox (so far as I can tell from photos I have seen), it is fitted with the cheap piece of 3 pole garbage that Marklin is now using, which is not a coreless motor as a result of which it will probably not move as freely, if at all, like its predecessor did.

Craig
I am unable to comment on your problem from personal experience as I have only ever operated my locos with this motor/gearbox combination on a layout with level track. I am aware, however, that when the Trix version of the USRA 2-8-2 was reviewed in Model Railroader (I think this was back in the 1990's), the reviewer noted that the locomotive had a tendency to continue running down a grade with a load after the power had been turned off. This tendency would of course be affected by factors such as the severity of the grade, and the weight of the loco and the load being pulled.

I have a friend who has the Trix version of the USRA 2-8-2. It is lighter loco than the BR 05 that you have, and is operated on a smaller layout with 1 in 30 grades and only a small load (5-6 bogie freight wagons). I have not noted any tendency for this loco to increase speed dramatically while running downhill, but the factors affecting the operation of your loco, particularly its size and weight, could be causing it to act in the fashion you have described, in which case it is something you may have to live with.

One thought I had is that with this motor/gearbox combination, you may be able to use the motor as a type of dynamic brake by applying a low reverse current (ie: making it run backwards at a slow speed) as it runs down the grade, but I have never tried this and I do not know how practical it would be.

Regards
Geoff
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Offline Shamu  
#10 Posted : 27 April 2015 05:23:19(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
I can't recall exactly which CV's but from memory there is at least in the case of ESU decoders the ability to set a brake although that may only be when the loco is at rest.

Might be worth looking thru the online PDF for the ESU decoders and see if the same CV are available on the Marklin decoders....... assuming that's what is in your loco in question.

EDIT 1:

Not really sure if this is what I was thinking about but its close, on page 43 of the current manual;

10.6.4. Braking at speed step 0
In order to apply the constant braking distance mode the decoder
must generally detect a braking section. This may be disadvantageous,
particularly when operation is computer controlled because
the software transmits the “braking command” directly by
setting speed step 0 even if there is no physical brake section.
In order to assure that the LokPilot V 4.0 responds to the brake
command with constant braking distance can be achieved by setting
bit 7 in CV 27. This results in the decoder braking whenever
speed step 0 is set.


EDIT 2:

WHOOPS, sorry this was what I was think of...... only applies to the LokPilot XL;

If so desired the LokPilot XL V4.0 decoder can short circuit the
motor when the locomotive is stationary. This “fixing brake” can
prevent the inadvertent rolling away of the locomotive on a downhill
gradient respectively reduce the curl.
The motor brake can be turned on by setting bit 6 in CV 124.
The motor brake is only active as long as track voltage is available.

Edited by user 28 April 2015 07:27:46(UTC)  | Reason: More info/Typo

Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline GLI  
#11 Posted : 27 April 2015 06:49:53(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
Hello Shamu

Thanks for that information. I am using ESU Lokpilot and Loksound decoders for all my DCC conversions and wasn't aware of this feature

Regards
Geoff
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 27 April 2015 07:34:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: craigericks Go to Quoted Post
The problem is the locomotive cannot maintain a set speed when under power down the slope.
How steep is the slope?
Some Märklin locos are known to roll down steep slopes when there is no power on the track.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline foumaro  
#13 Posted : 27 April 2015 09:18:24(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
I have noticed this to my 37115 C locomotive,she have a faulhaber motor.I have noticed this to BR05 37050 insider locomotive,she have the same motor too.I have three Mikados,they have the same motor type but i do not noticed such kind of behavior to them.
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 27 April 2015 09:48:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
This occurs with some motors (e.g. Faulhaber design or big C Sine) with some types of gear. Locos with worm drive should not start moving.
Fast locos are more likely to start moving than slow locos. Maybe the gear ratio is the important difference between a BR 05 and a Mikado.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline craigericks  
#15 Posted : 27 April 2015 12:55:55(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post



If so desired the LokPilot XL V4.0 decoder can short circuit the
motor when the locomotive is stationary. This “fixing brake” can
prevent the inadvertent rolling away of the locomotive on a downhill
gradient respectively reduce the curl.
The motor brake can be turned on by setting bit 6 in CV 124.
The motor brake is only active as long as track voltage is available.


Hi Shamu,
This is sort of what I was looking for for a cv. Think that whatever cv that ensures a constant speed when climbing or descending inclines may not be set correctly.

Forgot to add that I also have a 39053 which is same weight, and it maintains its constant speed down same slope along with all of my other locomotives. First time I have experienced this in the 12 year life of my layout.
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
Offline billhubb  
#16 Posted : 28 April 2015 02:55:48(UTC)
billhubb

United States   
Joined: 02/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Craig,
Time for you to expand into the garage.. and rip out all those slopes, and don't even think about that 3rd level.BigGrin
Bill
Offline mike c  
#17 Posted : 28 April 2015 07:21:05(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Looking at the instructions and exploded view diagram of this locomotive, it seems to be equipped with a very small motor. There is probably enough resistance in the motor to hold the locomotive in position on an average incline, but if you push the locomotive, the inertia might be enough to keep the locomotive rolling until the locomotive reaches the bottom of the hill. Adjusting the CV settings for acceleration and braking delay might increase the resistance of the motor and stop the locomotive from rolling down the hill.

I would be more concerned if you told me that if the train was moving uphill and you brought it to a stop, it would start to roll backwards on it's own.
If the locomotive holds it's position while stopped on an angle, my advice would be don't push the locomotive while it is on an incline, but other than a small adjustment of the braking settings, it should be fine.

Regards

Mike C
Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 28 April 2015 11:24:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
There are some combinations of motor and gearing that give a very free-running locomotive. I don't think there's much that can be done to change this behaviour with decoder adjustments.

Real life railway engineers try to minimise gradients as much as they can, and definitely stopping a train on a gradient is to be avoided under any circunstances. My advice to model railway designers is to try and emulate the real thing as far as possible. If you must connect different levels try to leave as much room as possible for the up and down ramps.

Even better is to have independant levels each with their own set of trains running. A neat trick I saw once was to have two identical trains running on different levels synchronised in such a way as to have one disappear into a tunnel at one level, and apparently appear moments later an a different level.

My layout is small and all on the same level, but I did consider various designs that involved "up and over" tracks on different levels. I did several tests on the living room floor with different gradients and tried many of my locomotives to see what gradient I could get away with. In the end I chose to keep life simple and stayed with my original design.

I realise this does not help Craig solve his problem, and I'm certainly not suggesting ripping all the track up and changing the design at this stage. Perhaps following Mike's advice and tinkering with the decoder CVs might make the loco "stiffer", but you still have the problem if the power cuts off when the loco is stopped on the slope!



Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline craigericks  
#19 Posted : 29 April 2015 00:37:29(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
Mike C,

"I would be more concerned if you told me that if the train was moving uphill and you brought it to a stop, it would start to roll backwards on it's own.
If the locomotive holds it's position while stopped on an angle, my advice would be don't push the locomotive while it is on an incline, but other than a small adjustment of the braking settings, it should be fine."

This is exactly the situation, running both forward and in reverse. If I stop the loco on the slope, it starts rolling down hill. When under power going down the slope it accelerates from its set speed. I have never encountered this problem with any of my other locomotives. My layout has suited me well for over 12 years and not about to change the inclines.

Bill H, You are invited over to convince the minister of finance that said expansion does indeed need to take place! BigGrin
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
Offline craigericks  
#20 Posted : 05 May 2015 00:26:26(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
All,
Update: Put another new locomotive on the layout and discovered this locomotive, 31021-1, had the same problem when pulling a 6 car passenger consists. Have taken some photos of the involved locomotives. Discovered the gearing is the same coming from the motors. These are the last 2 of 3 locomotives I have purchased and are the first to exhibit this behavior on my layout. Additionally I believe these are the only locomotives I have that have this motor/gear set up. Additionally a friend brought over his 37051 and we discovered that the drive wheels on his turn just as easily. Unfortunately did not have time to run his 37051 on my layout.
craigericks attached the following image(s):
train 2.jpg
train 3.jpg
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
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Offline Shamu  
#21 Posted : 05 May 2015 04:09:26(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Plastic gears...... sad, sad, sad...... it may reduce the noise a bit but........ SAD.Crying ThumbDown Sneaky
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline Ian555  
#22 Posted : 05 May 2015 09:16:29(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post


Real life railway engineers try to minimise gradients as much as they can, and definitely stopping a train on a gradient is to be avoided under any circunstances. My advice to model railway designers is to try and emulate the real thing as far as possible.

Even better is to have independant levels each with their own set of trains running.






Smile

Ian.
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Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 05 May 2015 09:56:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
Plastic gears...... sad, sad, sad...... it may reduce the noise a bit but........ SAD
Plastic gears have a long tradition with Märklin. I remember seeing plastic gears in the '70s, but don't know when they were introduced.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Nigel Packer  
#24 Posted : 05 May 2015 11:36:41(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 682
Location: Cheshire, UK
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Plastic gears have a long tradition with Märklin. I remember seeing plastic gears in the '70s, but don't know when they were introduced.




I think the earliest loco I have with a plastic (nylon) gear wheel is an SEH 800 (3013.4) Dutch Class 1100, which was made in 1963. Earlier versions of this particular loco had all metal gears, and this use of nylon was the latest technical innovation at the time.

I don't really see a problem with using plastics in the drive train, as long as they are well designed and high quality. I don't know about the durability of my 3013.4, as, of course, it is still brand new!

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
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Offline Shamu  
#25 Posted : 05 May 2015 13:33:37(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Well Tom & Nigel, thanks..... you learn something new everyday. Blushing

That's what I get for making assumptions. With the exception of my new BR05 cab forward and the S2/6 (which I wouldn't be surprised to find plastic/nylon gears in) all my Marklin loco's have metal gears/worm drive and I myself have never seen the dreaded plastic before in Marklin loco's until now.

I very much doubt I'll be around in 20 years to complain but I would personally like to know that the plastic would last at least that long if not decades longer. LOL, suppose I'm just a grumpy old fart that doesn't trust these new fangled ideas.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline biedmatt  
#26 Posted : 05 May 2015 14:21:16(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Gears like these with concentric rings of teeth could be machined from metal, but the cost would be high. Injection casting in metal would be difficult since you may not get a complete fill of the mold and then you would have incomplete teeth. That could cause big problems. As long as the plastic gears stay in proper mesh, they should last forever. The motors themselves are weak enough to stall under load instead of stripping off teeth. The quiet running is also a nice side effect.

I think this gearbox arangement was first introduced with the Wurttemburg C in the middle 1980's.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline craigericks  
#27 Posted : 06 May 2015 01:55:13(UTC)
craigericks

United States   
Joined: 04/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: ,
Here is a photo of the 37051 at the point the problem, accelerating while at a set speed using a CS2, begins. The slope is approximately 8% or 15mm/188m at this point or 20cm/240cm over the length of the grade. I guess I must consider myself very lucky to not have experienced this problem until the 68th and 69th out of 70 locomotives hit this slope. My next layout will have a helix to get me down to the hidden yards. The helix I have made works fine in getting my trains to my wall shelves.
craigericks attached the following image(s):
train 3.jpg
train 4.jpg
Marklin:CS2 and TrainController Gold v10
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Offline river6109  
#28 Posted : 06 May 2015 05:51:17(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I hope Märklin has fixed the problem with mfx + decoders, whereas you can apply the brake going downhill (biggrin]
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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