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Offline jvuye  
#351 Posted : 05 March 2015 23:47:17(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
John, yes and no:

HAG do not have a 5-pole motor because their 3-pole motor is considered to be equally good.
....

http://www.buco-hag-maer...-komplett-mit-kugellager
http://www.buco-hag-maer...5-160148-90-anker-typ-88
http://www.buco-hag-maer...-90-kohle-und-druckfeder
plus the permanent magnet stator no. 161216-90 which currently does not seem to be available due to problems of the new company... ThumbDown

These are quite expensive conversion jobs - I wonder if they are really worthwhile?


Hi John, Stefan and all

Stefan is correct. That would make it (unnecessarily??) expensive IMHO.

I have about 40 HAG locos and railcars , with both the older "flat" collector motor and the newer "drum" style type 88

In absolute terms there are two differences in terms of performance:

1° the flat collector model is noisier, whatever you'll try to do to correct the problem. But you won't have the dreaded "rubbing gears" coffee grinder noise found in some Märklin locos...

2° for the same tractive effort (same train at the same spot at the same speed) the flat collector version will use from 30 to 50% more power. I guess that's because the brushes exercise a bigger braking effect and there are no ball bearings on the rotor axle.

However, with the Lokpilots like the ones you use, you won't notice a visible difference in term of smooth + slow running performance.

If you use the suggested parameters and still find rough behaviour, go into the regulation parameters adjustment routine as you know it, probably better than most of us here. So I won't go into that.

One last little word of caution: when you install the permanent magnet, be careful not to leave any ferrite particle lodge itself on the gears.

The magnetic material they used (and still do today AFAIK) is brittle, so handle with care.

Other than that, I have HAG locos with over 30 years of service. Still running as good as new.

And still I love that Swiss Express consist even though the Loksound equipped Re 4/4 II n° 11103 is a bit out of scale with the coaches. Wink

Enjoy the new additions to your fleet.

Cheers

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline river6109  
#352 Posted : 20 March 2015 16:49:35(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Jacques,

thanks for the advice, yes I've noticed the BLS runs quite at lower speed but when you add some weight behind it and going up hill, the noise becomes more noticeable.

its a shame it costs so much to convert it to a drum collector suppose it is alright if you find a second hand one for a reasonable price, I wouldn't count on it thou

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline taliesin  
#353 Posted : 26 March 2015 10:08:23(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Hi Guys, please go easy on me as I am feeling my way round HAG. Looking round to add another Re 460 (Marklin) I keep coming across on the net examples of the HAG model of the 460. My first question is what does it offer over the Marklin model as it is typically twice the price?
Now the model that particularly catches my eye is described as HAG 074 Digital AC SBB CFF Class Re 460 084-7 150 Swiss Rail Limited Edition. In the item description it goes on to say that it's fitted with a Marklin 6081 Digital Chip and pick up skate with a picture of a certificate to back this up. Now my modest set up is controlled by a MS2 which should be compatible ?
Is this model ok from the decent period of old HAG or should it be avoided, I am aware that I could get 2xMarklin for the price of this one, your advice please, many thanks Rob
Offline Unholz  
#354 Posted : 26 March 2015 11:39:15(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Hi Guys, please go easy on me as I am feeling my way round HAG. Looking round to add another Re 460 (Marklin) I keep coming across on the net examples of the HAG model of the 460. My first question is what does it offer over the Marklin model as it is typically twice the price?
Now the model that particularly catches my eye is described as HAG 074 Digital AC SBB CFF Class Re 460 084-7 150 Swiss Rail Limited Edition. In the item description it goes on to say that it's fitted with a Marklin 6081 Digital Chip and pick up skate with a picture of a certificate to back this up. (...)
Is this model ok from the decent period of old HAG or should it be avoided, I am aware that I could get 2xMarklin for the price of this one, your advice please, many thanks Rob


Hi Rob,

It's more or less a question of taste, liking and "philosophy" - just as for instance in case of a preferred meal or drink, an individual watch brand or a motor car, etc. etc. Wink The HAG model is not twice as good as its counterpart from Marklin - but it is a bit different. Wink For instance, the motor sound differs from the older Marklin "coffee grinder" (Delta) types, the buffers have springs, the windscreen wipers are add-on parts, etc.

The "chrome livery" Re 460 you mention was a special series produced in 1997 for a Swiss railways jubilee. As a standard, it was not factory fitted with a Marklin 6081 decoder, so either somebody must have specifically ordered it with that decoder or it was later retrofitted with the 6081.

The model is a typical and decent example of "old HAG", so generally speaking you should be happy with it.

Offline taliesin  
#355 Posted : 26 March 2015 12:11:34(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Many thanks, I was not inspecting it to be twice as good as the Marklin, life doesn't seem to work like that but I would certainly expect a "bit more" with the enhanced price, it would appear that there are some separately applied parts and a better motor in this particular model to justify the price. The seller says that the Marklin Decoders were added separately by a qualified technician, there is paperwork to back this story up.
I will have a look round and see if there are other liveries that catch my eye, probably totally wrong but I quite like the idea of it at the front of my Marklin 4367 set, regards Rob
Offline river6109  
#356 Posted : 26 March 2015 13:34:45(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
from a Märklin point of view, I purchased my first HAG locos not so long ago and I must confess I'm impressed, not so much about details but the overall use of metal parts and mine are from an Analog era (DC) so the conversion to digital wasn't a big issue as I believe there are no more spare parts available to turn the loco from AC to DC except of course newer models with ball bearings, drum collector. Hag must have woken up early not to use different metal when combining different parts, e.g. motor block/armature, using the motor block for extra weight and the whole construction of the motor is in my opinion much sturdier and precise.
the overhead contact inside the loco is of white metal and much stronger but as Stefan pointed out out it's not twice as good. I also mentioned my HAG locos had been about a third of normal going market price and with no faults or any sign of misuse or damage.

I will buy more but not for the price they charge commonly.

I assume the loco in question was a DC loco in the beginning and this would be plausible because the use of a 6081 decoder, my advice is stay away from AC analog locos and by the time you've converted them to digital you'll have all the same and more improvements buying a newer digital loco, so it was suggested to me.

good luck

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline taliesin  
#357 Posted : 26 March 2015 14:25:43(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Thanks John, I do not know the engines history but the vendor seems to have many Hag engines with added decoders, all appear to be mint/boxed and test run only, mainly 6080 AC models with some fitted 6081 DC models, all seem to have a Marklin certificate/guarantee suggesting a professional installation.
To be honest my level of knowledge is such that as long as it works with my MS2 and is easy to set up then the finer points of different decoders are lost on me, I do have one mfx sound loco which I do like but I do not see myself altering loco's with newer upgraded parts to achieve similar results, way beyond my brain power.
One further question, I assume Hag fitted decoders themselves as time went on, are these an "easy fit" with the MS2?
cheers Rob
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Online 5HorizonsRR  
#358 Posted : 26 March 2015 14:43:04(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
I think the "not twice as good" analogy is more a testament to Marklin quality than a detriment against HAG BigGrin Marklin aside, the HAG pretty much is twice as nice as most everything else on the market.

My take: well worth the price if you like the locomotive, and something a bit different/special. My general rule (to save my wallet) is that I buy the Marklin model of whichever Swiss train I want, but I get the HAG whenever a Marklin variant isn't available. It is a good excuse, and it comes up just often enough to treat myself to a HAG without spending a fortune all the time Love In the end I'm happy with either brand
SBB Era 2-5
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Offline Loadmaster  
#359 Posted : 26 March 2015 16:23:23(UTC)
Loadmaster

United States   
Joined: 03/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 898
Location: So Cal
May I add my two cents to this conversation. I first won a HAG Re 4/4 in NINA colors in 2004/5 at the EuroWest train show. My first impression was it had more metal that a Marklin model plus it was much heaver. I have pulled 50+ cars behind it, WOW. Now I haven't tried it with a Marklin engine.
Currently, I think I have a collection of 6 or 7 HAG engines. They get exercised several times a year at train shows. I guess I need to offer a picture of my collection in the future.
Need I say that I am completely satisfied with the original HAG products. I have found a retailer here in the USA that still has some inventory.

Robert
HOac and Z scale running SBB/BLS Era IV-V
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Offline Unholz  
#360 Posted : 26 March 2015 16:44:29(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post

One further question, I assume Hag fitted decoders themselves as time went on, are these an "easy fit" with the MS2?


Yes, mostly. Slight problems might possibly arise with the "HAG 501" decoder made by Digitrax, but that one was only installed in a few models around the year 2000 (for instance the first batch of Ae 4/7).

Some newer models contain ZIMO decoders, but I have not experienced problems running them with my MS1 or MS2.

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Offline taliesin  
#361 Posted : 26 March 2015 20:58:23(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Well having looked at all the engines on offer I have pulled the trigger on a HAG 280 Class Re 4/4 460 099-5 100 Lok2000.
Fitted with a Marklin 6080 chip, the advert claims this particular model is a limited edition but I have no real way of telling unless there is some sort of certificate with it when it arrives, I must admit I thought it was a fairly common livery.
Almost plumped for a different one then just remembered the above post regarding the HAG 501 decoder, thanks.
Just got to wait now, thanks guysBigGrin , Rob
Offline river6109  
#362 Posted : 27 March 2015 03:14:41(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Good luck with your new purchase

Stefan, so here is another company which prefers Zimo decoders to ESU, did they ever have ESU decoders in their locos ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Unholz  
#363 Posted : 27 March 2015 06:13:56(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post

Stefan, so here is another company which prefers Zimo decoders to ESU, did they ever have ESU decoders in their locos ?


I would guess that about 85 percent of the HAG locos were factory equipped with ESU decoders and only the small remaining percentage with Zimo (and in the beginning Digitrax).

Rob, your model will not come with any kind of certificate although it was a limited edition produced in 1996. The livery is not purely common because the loco features additional lettering celebrating the 100th Re 460 put into service by the SBB.

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#364 Posted : 27 March 2015 10:17:28(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Well having looked at all the engines on offer I have pulled the trigger on a HAG 280 Class Re 4/4 460 099-5 100 Lok2000.
Fitted with a Marklin 6080 chip, the advert claims this particular model is a limited edition but I have no real way of telling unless there is some sort of certificate with it when it arrives, I must admit I thought it was a fairly common livery.
Almost plumped for a different one then just remembered the above post regarding the HAG 501 decoder, thanks.
Just got to wait now, thanks guysBigGrin , Rob


Your description of these locos fitted with 6080 chips suggest that they are part of a series of auctions that have occurred over the last 6 months or so, where a considerable amount of MARKLIN, Hag and Brawa items were sold. An ebay dealer who runs under the alias antiquetoys1 bought a large percentage of the auction lots and has been disposing of the items on ebay, some having outlandish prices attached to them. I'm guessing you have bought one of these items.

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Offline taliesin  
#365 Posted : 27 March 2015 12:00:58(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Thats the Guy, but having paid under £200 I don't think mine was outlandish, some do seem high though, cheers Rob
Offline Unholz  
#366 Posted : 27 March 2015 13:09:43(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Thats the Guy, but having paid under £200 I don't think mine was outlandish, some do seem high though, cheers Rob


"Under £200" is actually a bargain considering that the model is equipped with a decoder. Guys like me who bought it 19 years ago paid almost twice as much. Wink

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Offline taliesin  
#367 Posted : 27 March 2015 13:29:23(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
I cannot comment about HAG prices but I seem to think from adverts that they were always premium, I get the impression though that in real terms Marklin are a lot cheaper now than say 20 - 30 years a go here in the UK, regards Rob
P.s as and when the 460 arrives should I really like it then maybe it will be joined by another.......
Offline jcrtrains  
#368 Posted : 27 March 2015 16:12:22(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I have had a lot of problems with the Place Bid button on Hag items. One can lead to a deluge! But oh the enjoyment.
Offline taliesin  
#369 Posted : 01 April 2015 18:55:08(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
I understand some of the older models are a bit over scale, is there a list of box codes that display this or is it not that easy, as in the higher the code the newer the model? cheers Rob
Offline Unholz  
#370 Posted : 01 April 2015 23:04:15(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
I understand some of the older models are a bit over scale, is there a list of box codes that display this or is it not that easy, as in the higher the code the newer the model? cheers Rob


Phew... - the HAG numbering system is a science of its own...OhMyGod It would take me the entire evening trying to decode it. Wink

Some older oversize models that just come to mind are:

- no. 100, the "Red Arrow"
- no. 120, the original series of Ae 6/6 Gotthard locomotives
- no. 131, the Te 2/2 yard shunter
- no. 140, the original series of Ae 4/7 locomotives
- no. 150, the railcar with baggage compartment
- no. 160, the original series of Re 4/4 II locomotives
- no. 170, the famous "Gold Coast Express" fantasy model
- no. 180 and 182, the BLS Ae 4/4 and Re 4/4 locomotives
- no. 200, the articulated Re 6/6
- nos. 210, 220, 222, 225, 227, 230, 232, 235, 237, lots of Re 4/4 types
- no. 240 and 242, the BLS Ae 8/8

I'll stop here, it's getting endless... Sad

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Offline taliesin  
#371 Posted : 01 April 2015 23:09:57(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
I understand some of the older models are a bit over scale, is there a list of box codes that display this or is it not that easy, as in the higher the code the newer the model? cheers Rob


Phew... - the HAG numbering system is a science of its own...OhMyGod It would take me the entire evening trying to decode it. Wink

Some older oversize models that just come to mind are:

- no. 100, the "Red Arrow"
- no. 120, the original series of Ae 6/6 Gotthard locomotives
- no. 131, the Te 2/2 yard shunter
- no. 140, the original series of Ae 4/7 locomotives
- no. 150, the railcar with baggage compartment
- no. 160, the original series of Re 4/4 II locomotives
- no. 170, the famous "Gold Coast Express" fantasy model
- no. 180 and 182, the BLS Ae 4/4 and Re 4/4 locomotives
- no. 200, the articulated Re 6/6
- nos. 210, 220, 222, 225, 227, 230, 232, 235, 237, lots of Re 4/4 types
- no. 240 and 242, the BLS Ae 8/8

I'll stop here, it's getting endless... Sad



Thanks, maybe it would have been easier to list the scale ones BigGrin regards Rob
Offline taliesin  
#372 Posted : 04 April 2015 12:22:57(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Well my 460 arrived earlier this week, nicely packaged and it certainly lived up to the sellers promise of it being in mint condition with the loco, box and paperwork all looking like it could have left the factory yesterday rather than some 20 odd years a go.
Today I had my first opportunity to programme it into my MS2 and I shuffled it up and down for a while just to see that it basically works bearing in mind it appears to have spent it's life as a shelf queen. It certainly appears to be quiet, smooth and powerful but I would like to give it an oil round before giving it an extended run as I am in effect running it in. I have Peco electrolube and Marklin oil, will either of these do or should I look for another type here in the UK as I suspect HAG's own oil will be hard to get here and it will only be a common oil in a branded bottle.
The fit and finish appear to be second to none and I can understand the appeal of these HAG models, maybe life just got more expensive BigGrin for me. The chip, a Marklin 6080 although basic function wise seems to perform well and I would happily buy another loco so fitted, regards to all for your help and advice, Rob
Offline Unholz  
#373 Posted : 04 April 2015 13:32:27(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Aaaahhh... - welcome to the club. BigGrin ThumpUp You are now on the road to poverty, and should you have a wife or girlfriend, you will have to cook up some new excuses and explanations. Wink

Any good model train oil is o.k., but please don't overdo it - HAG locos don't favor too much oil, but in the case of a shelf queen a small drop here and there is a good idea.
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Offline taliesin  
#374 Posted : 04 April 2015 14:48:41(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Aaaahhh... - welcome to the club. BigGrin ThumpUp You are now on the road to poverty, and should you have a wife or girlfriend, you will have to cook up some new excuses and explanations. Wink

Any good model train oil is o.k., but please don't overdo it - HAG locos don't favor too much oil, but in the case of a shelf queen a small drop here and there is a good idea.


Thanks, my girlfriend has me on the road to poverty anyway via perfume so she cannot really complain BigGrin , thanks for the tip regarding oil, regards Rob
Offline river6109  
#375 Posted : 04 April 2015 16:50:25(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
It is definitely a nightmare if you are not familiar with the catalogue numbers, some ebay sellers confuse the catalogue number with road number but I always look at the road number to be sure I'm not buying a duplicate.

there must have been a revision somewhere between 1960 and recently when they changed the locos to digital with drum armatures, ball bearings and most probably other improvements such as led's and coupling shafts and maybe the type of rubber tyres.

is there anywhere a guide line when these changes had occurred and was it with the old or new company ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kiwiAlan  
#376 Posted : 04 April 2015 18:19:25(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
I'm not familiar with the Peco Electrolube, but the Marklin oil should be fine. One tiny drop on each axle bearing will be plenty.

The biggest problem with the 6080 decoder is that it has only 14 speed steps and no momentum control. It also can not understand the directional speed instructions of the later Motorola format (commonly called MM2). What happens then is if you stop the loco at a signal which doesn't have the 'keep alive' facility, but is a standard old type Marklin signal switching off the power, then when the signal goes green the loco may take off in the opposite direction. It will need to be stopped for some time for this to happen, but there are other circumstances where a similar thing can happen, such as when the layout has been powered off for a period.

I would certainly think in terms of using a much more modern decoder in the longer term. Once you have run a loco with a later decoder you will not want to go back to the 6080.

Offline taliesin  
#377 Posted : 04 April 2015 18:20:04(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Apologies if I am pushing my luck, could someone please confirm if these Loks are later scale models or earlier over scale?
092 Re 4/4 Voralpen Express
270 Re 4/4 III
22 500-31 Re 4/4 II
I am making the assumption that all 460 and 465 are relatively late and to scale?
many thanks Rob
Offline taliesin  
#378 Posted : 04 April 2015 21:33:02(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I'm not familiar with the Peco Electrolube, but the Marklin oil should be fine. One tiny drop on each axle bearing will be plenty.

The biggest problem with the 6080 decoder is that it has only 14 speed steps and no momentum control. It also can not understand the directional speed instructions of the later Motorola format (commonly called MM2). What happens then is if you stop the loco at a signal which doesn't have the 'keep alive' facility, but is a standard old type Marklin signal switching off the power, then when the signal goes green the loco may take off in the opposite direction. It will need to be stopped for some time for this to happen, but there are other circumstances where a similar thing can happen, such as when the layout has been powered off for a period.

I would certainly think in terms of using a much more modern decoder in the longer term. Once you have run a loco with a later decoder you will not want to go back to the 6080.



Thanks Alan, I am using a MS2, what chip would be a good upgrade? known to work and easy enough to install? cheers Rob
Offline mike c  
#379 Posted : 05 April 2015 00:08:06(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Apologies if I am pushing my luck, could someone please confirm if these Loks are later scale models or earlier over scale?
092 Re 4/4 Voralpen Express
270 Re 4/4 III
22 500-31 Re 4/4 II
I am making the assumption that all 460 and 465 are relatively late and to scale?
many thanks Rob


The following models are from the new generation

152/154 BDe 4/4
All Re 456 (Re 4/4KTU) of the BT, SOB and SZU/Sihltalbahn
165/166 Re 4/4II
203/205 Re 6/6
128 Ae 6/6

I do not know of the top of my head which model 22 500-31 is. A quick ebay check lists it as the Bm 4/4II, which is built on the chassis of the 220/230 Re 4/4I. That model was part of the older generation and is slightly wider than exact 1/87. I do not know if this applies to the shell that was moulded for the Bm 4/4II.

A good list of models with photos can be found here: http://www.roundhouse.ch/Hersteller/HAG.htm

If you want a reference, your best bet may be to try to find a catalogue around 1998-2002 and then again the 2008-2010 edition for the new numbers.
The New Generation models are clearly identified in both catalogues.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Unholz  
#380 Posted : 05 April 2015 08:44:30(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Apologies if I am pushing my luck, could someone please confirm if these Loks are later scale models or earlier over scale?
092 Re 4/4 Voralpen Express
270 Re 4/4 III
22 500-31 Re 4/4 II
I am making the assumption that all 460 and 465 are relatively late and to scale?


Confirmation in all cases except "22 500-31" which is a special kind of Diesel (I will not go into details in order to prevent additional confusion Wink ) as mentioned by Mike.

Please allow me a bit of publicity for my HAG website http://www.stefanunholz.ch/page1/english.html which also includes a renumbering comparison table:
http://www.stefanunholz....age7/artikelnummern.html
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#381 Posted : 05 April 2015 14:16:09(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I'm not familiar with the Peco Electrolube, but the Marklin oil should be fine. One tiny drop on each axle bearing will be plenty.

The biggest problem with the 6080 decoder is that it has only 14 speed steps and no momentum control. It also can not understand the directional speed instructions of the later Motorola format (commonly called MM2). What happens then is if you stop the loco at a signal which doesn't have the 'keep alive' facility, but is a standard old type Marklin signal switching off the power, then when the signal goes green the loco may take off in the opposite direction. It will need to be stopped for some time for this to happen, but there are other circumstances where a similar thing can happen, such as when the layout has been powered off for a period.

I would certainly think in terms of using a much more modern decoder in the longer term. Once you have run a loco with a later decoder you will not want to go back to the 6080.



Thanks Alan, I am using a MS2, what chip would be a good upgrade? known to work and easy enough to install? cheers Rob


I would look at installing a Loksound M4 which is mfx compatible as you are using an ms2. You should be able to get one with Re460 sounds preloaded and then you may need to change some CVs to suit your individual loco. You may also need to make some changes to the motor by fitting a magnet - I am not familiar with HAG motors so don't know if the 6080 has been set up to drive a DC motor or if the motor has a field coil.

Offline taliesin  
#382 Posted : 05 April 2015 16:44:36(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Apologies if I am pushing my luck, could someone please confirm if these Loks are later scale models or earlier over scale?
092 Re 4/4 Voralpen Express
270 Re 4/4 III
22 500-31 Re 4/4 II
I am making the assumption that all 460 and 465 are relatively late and to scale?


Confirmation in all cases except "22 500-31" which is a special kind of Diesel (I will not go into details in order to prevent additional confusion Wink ) as mentioned by Mike.

Please allow me a bit of publicity for my HAG website http://www.stefanunholz.ch/page1/english.html which also includes a renumbering comparison table:
http://www.stefanunholz....age7/artikelnummern.html

Wow, thats some website you have, I cannot see 092 listed though, is it a later scale model? thanks Rob
Offline Unholz  
#383 Posted : 05 April 2015 19:19:51(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Rob, 092 is listed in the HAG-UNUM database (try again with the search field "old HAG #") and it is a scale model.

I'll add it later to the numbering list.
Unholz attached the following image(s):
092.jpg
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Offline taliesin  
#384 Posted : 05 April 2015 19:24:11(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Rob, 092 is listed in the HAG-UNUM database (try again with the search field "old HAG #") and it is a scale model.

I'll add it later to the numbering list.

Thanks I have found it, not being a German speaker/reader what tells me if a model is scale or not? Rob

Offline Unholz  
#385 Posted : 05 April 2015 19:39:47(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
...good question. Smile Nothing, actually - but with a few exceptions (re-issues of older models) everything newly developed and produced since the year 1987 is built to H0 scale. Additionally, the remark "neue Generation" (new generation) also indicates this.
Offline mike c  
#386 Posted : 05 April 2015 20:43:44(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I included models #092 and #098 in my above list of New Generation models under the description "All Re 456 (Re 4/4KTU) of the BT, SOB and SZU/Sihltalbahn"

Regards

Mike C
Offline river6109  
#387 Posted : 06 April 2015 04:15:01(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Stefan, you've got a bug in your website
looking at the latest HAG locos the circuit board is something extraordinary, its simple, its packed at the top of the loco (housing and another sub board on the frame
John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline chrisisrang  
#388 Posted : 06 April 2015 13:11:26(UTC)
chrisisrang


Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Hong Kong
John,

The new HAG which has been overly criticized for the painting shortcomings in the first few locomotive models that it has produced has kind of over-shadowed the absolutely fantastic light systems that it is bringing to market. You have to actually see it installed in a locomotive to appreciate. Second, the range of light functions that you can activate are superb that I have at least not seen in Marklin, ROCO, ACME and BEMO. I am not speaking about custom implementations that some of the more experienced model railroaders amongst us can achieve using their unique skills and capabilities.

I have had 12 of my HAG Re460/ Re465s upgraded at the factory and they have all been working flawlessly. There is zero failure. One has to remember that the parent company Polytrona supplies electrical systems / components to the likes of ABB and Bombardier that build REAL trains and not model toy trains.

People on the German speaking HAG forum have clearly acknowledged the vast improvement of painting quality for the Re 460 Air14 Payerne by some of the senior members of the forum. I am sure they haven't been paid by the new HAG to write flowery comments in their favour. Anyone interested can the reviews at the following URL. You can use online Google translator which will at least get you the gist of the discussion.

http://www.forum.hag-inf...postID=122531#post122531

The moderator of the forum who also happens to be the guy who runs Eyro Modellbahn in Interlaken. He has posted some nice closeups

There are some more pictures on HAG's own forum page which show that the second batch was delivered with vastly improved painting.

http://forum.hag.ch/inde...e48b4fec046f64b#post1099

Are they there where the old HAG in Morschwil was? Perhaps not but then it is not easy build a 10 - 12 employee company when you find that more than half the employees are no longer there. I do not want to dive into the specifics because that will open up a can of worms but it is suffice to think that Herr Urech has invested his hard earned money in HAG and he is not a jerk to throw that investment out of the window.

Cynics will always say that the glass is half emply while the optimists will say it is half full!
File Attachment(s):
beleuchtungsschema-re460-re465-sound.pdf (187kb) downloaded 37 time(s).
Re460-465 PCB Upgrade.pdf (77kb) downloaded 38 time(s).
Offline Unholz  
#389 Posted : 06 April 2015 13:53:08(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
OhMyGod Sad Scared Oh nooooo - here we go again...ThumbDown

Chris, by now probably all of us are aware that you are among the small remaining handful of Urech supporters. As such, you are of course perfectly entitled to your own opinion as well as to see things through strongly rose-tinted spectacles - but please don't try to mislead members of this forum by only showing those specific (and rare!!) pictures which happen to suit you.

To balance things, here are a couple of more interesting and typical links to the deplorable and current (!) "quality" of New HAG painting and printing:

http://forum.hag.ch/inde...r-14/?postID=905#post905
http://forum.hag.ch/inde...14/?postID=1095#post1095 (this must be among the worst workmanship possible!)
http://www.stefanunholz.ch/page2/info.html
http://www.hausin.com/Ro...1%20Re%20460%20Air14.JPG

And concerning your reference to my long time friend Christian who is the founder of the German speaking HAG forum as well as co-owner of EYRO Modellbahn GmbH, it might be a good idea to ask him how many Re 460 "Air14" rejected by furious and/or disappointed customers he has had to return to Stans for replacement. Sad
Offline river6109  
#390 Posted : 06 April 2015 13:56:27(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Chris,

thank you for your reply, and thanks for the links, its definitely a row of options regarding the light functions, for me I would have to write them down or have them somewhere to remember all the different light functions but they are there. its taken up most of the functions there are 8 left for other sound options, e.g station announcements, it all depends what type of sound decoder is in the loco. (ESU or Zimo).

I have been lucky with the 2 I've got they are DC and I've converted them to digital but the new circuit board is impressive , what seems to be the case the all have the same standard circuit board tucked inside the housing and now they have plugs to separate the housing from the frame.

Cynics will always say that the glass is half empty while the optimists will say it is half full! what option have I got and to be quite honest I don't want to get tangled into a web of rights and wrongs, I think Stefan demonstrated it clearly what has happened and I don't like to add anything further other to comment on my observations and I usually make up my own mind what I can afford and what is suitable for my collection, although I'm impressed its beyond my reach and I'll just keep on dreaming to own one of these locos one day.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Rajnish  
#391 Posted : 06 April 2015 16:23:54(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Hello Stefan,

If Chris is wearing rose tinted glasses then I must say that you are no saint either. Your displeasure with the new owners is a well known public fact which is evident because you did not have the same privy access the way you had with the old HAG management. Yes, paint issues have been serious but then you haven't come out to appreciate where the new company has done has a pretty damn good job - electronics and digital. Well well....but then electronics and digital is certainly not to your liking!

I do not see any malafide intention to mislead forum members because then Chris would not have pointed them to the HAG forum article. There have been fair number of very good quality Re460 locos printed that came out of the second batch in November. It is you who has only pointed towards the shortcomngs of the new HAG, squarely failing to appreciate that at least they did some innovation in bringing new electronics to the market while the old HAG was rehashing the same old lousy electronics year after year....in this day and age of innovation and change.

and by the way, just because you are a longstanding member of the forum and rightly well respected that does not mean that all what you say is RIGHT. The old HAG company was doomed to fail due to poor financial management, lack of vision and little lateral thinking in terms of change and innovation. All that they did for the last 15 years was to re-paint Ae 6/6, Re 6/6 and Re460 shells with different liveries. If they did not perfect this art year after year then what would they be offering to customers that would keep them spending top dollars on the brand. What is that old English adage...Practice Makes a Man Perfect and that is what the old HAG at Morschwil did - the art of painting perfect liveries.

Sorry my friend for being a abrasive but I have been reading your posts after posts across every forum where you have been relentless in your efforts to bash Urech and the new company. I can bet you that the company was almost on the verge of extinction under the previous managements.

Three cheers for the evening!

Rajnish
Offline chrisisrang  
#392 Posted : 06 April 2015 16:51:22(UTC)
chrisisrang


Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Hong Kong
John,

I certainly was not intending to mislead anyone....Just resting my case here!

I have added a few additional sounds such as cab chatter, station announcements, door closing.

I had to literally wait a good 3 years before I could even complete my IC2000 consist. So much for the classic HAG at Morschwil. The new company delivered IC2000 cars factory fitted with lights at the price at which the old HAG was selling the cars for donkeys years. The steuerwagen comes with cab light as well as red/ white lights which change with direction of travel. I see this as a huge improvement which needs to be appreciated.

The price of a new Re460 (one of the old liveries) ordered from the factory with new light system and sound costs CHF750 whereas the old HAG was charging CHF810 with the same old crappy electronics that they were fitting their locos with for years!

The new company has a long way to go in terms of improving the paint quality which is proving to be its Achilles heel but I ma hopeful that they will get it right this year....there are some hard lessons learnt. Cynics will always be cynics!! I have no qualms in saying that.

regards,

Chris
Offline Unholz  
#393 Posted : 06 April 2015 16:57:46(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Rajnish Go to Quoted Post
All that they did for the last 15 years was to re-paint Ae 6/6, Re 6/6 and Re460 shells with different liveries.


Hello Rajnish,

Ah, nice to hear from you as usual, I've been expecting your post here for the last hour or so. ThumpUpSmile

And WHAT has the New HAG company being doing since November 2012, apart from conveying almost countless announcements and promises to the customers? Please be fair and mention this too: Nothing else than re-painting a couple of Re 460, Re 4/4, Re 6/6 and Ae 6/6 shells with different liveries and installing lighting gimmicks that no collector needs. And who wants expensive models with such features but doesn't dare to display them in a showcase because of the serious painting and printing issues which even you have to admit? Which serious collector loves models that are spattered with traces of glue? Etc. etc.

Rajnish wrote:

Practice Makes a Man Perfect and that is what the old HAG at Morschwil did - the art of painting perfect liveries.


Very nicely said indeed! And I will continue to be "relentless in my efforts" (thanks for the perfect expression! ThumpUp Smile ) to contradict people who are still desperately trying to conceal the evident fact that the New HAG company will sooner or later also come up to verge of extinction if the current management doesn't at last realize the simple fact that their customers do NOT consist solely of a couple of "lighting gizmo aficionados", but predominantly of (formerly...Sad) faithful collectors who request nothing else than TRUE SWISS QUALITY - or, as you phrase it beautifully: people who cherish that former ART of painting perfect liveries.

Cheers to you too, and see you again soon in one of those other forums where you are bravely raising the "New HAG" flag and defending mistakes that are evident to those among us who linger much closer to the band-stand than you possibly can.

PS. Just for the complete information of our forum members: Rajnish is the official "New HAG" dealer/importer in Singapore and one of Mr. Urech's personal friends. Wink
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Jay
Offline Rajnish  
#394 Posted : 06 April 2015 17:17:07(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Stefan,

You have stated this on more than one occasion that I am a HAG handler and a personal friend of Mr. Urech which most people know by now. You don't need to keep repeating it like a broken record BigGrin It is exactly for this reason I have been bemused by your antics to criticize HAG and have chosen to stay generally quiet because any and everything that anyone says positive is immediately shot down by you. The HAG forum has had many more folks who have been cautiously positive and at the same time providing critical feedback for improvement.

Please learn to read before you respond. No one has gone and blindly given a perfect 10 to the new HAG management. We all acknowledge that they have a long way to go but giving them credit for whatever little they have done does not hurt. The fact of the matter is that if I am a friend of Mr. Urech then you are utterly sore because he did not give you any importance that you got within the old company. Laugh Laugh Laugh It is ok if you now start promoting the Classic HAG which is being resurrected by your friend Schoch. Let's get all the facts out in the open....

Rajnish
Offline Rajnish  
#395 Posted : 06 April 2015 17:24:25(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Singapore, Singapore
With due respect to my fellow forum members who are perhaps more fluent than me in English and would agree that I have not blindly defended the mistakes of the new HAG management. I have just chosen to highlight the positives where they deserve some credit.

"Cheers to you too, and see you again soon in one of those other forums where you are bravely raising the "New HAG" flag and defending mistakes that are evident to those among us who linger much closer to the band-stand than you possibly can." I certainly have more important things to do in life than get into useless argumentative discussions with you. My time is very precious...so please carry on from here with your HAG Stans bashing. Good luck with your endeavor!!
Offline taliesin  
#396 Posted : 06 April 2015 17:54:19(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Calm down guys, you are destroying my opinion that this is a friendly forum, I have had much help here for which I am grateful.
We can agree to disagree without getting "shouty shouty" using red words, regards to all, Rob
Offline Unholz  
#397 Posted : 06 April 2015 17:55:08(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Rajnish Go to Quoted Post
The fact of the matter is that if I am a friend of Mr. Urech then you are utterly sore because he did not give you any importance that you got within the old company. Laugh Laugh Laugh It is ok if you now start promoting the Classic HAG which is being resurrected by your friend Schoch. Let's get all the facts out in the open....


Rajnish,

OhMyGod As you know too, I received my first HAG model in 1963, more than 50 years ago. You must also be aware of the fact that Switzerland is a comparatively small country, and therefore many members of the even smaller model train collector market and community here are more or less acquainted with each other.

Therefore, thanks to all our gossip factories, rumor mills and "grapevines" I already heard your story above a long time ago about me being allegedly "utterly sore" Wink at Mr. Urech because he "did not give me any importance". LOL

Perhaps you are also interested in my version of the story? It is actually very short: My initial impression of the man was quite good - and among other things, I enjoyed a personal guided tour of the "factory", VIP treatment (yes indeed!) with lots of inside information - and a bunch of promises. Things changed at that precise moment when I began to notice that he demonstrates all the typical virtues of a Swiss politician. Need I say more? I guess not (or are politicians different in your country?) - but for me trustworthiness and dependability are the most important and decisive elements of a private and business relationship, and it is time to say goodbye very quickly when they are evidently missing. That's it - so simple, actually. Smile

And with regard to Mr. Schoch: I would feel honored should he consider me to be a friend. After all, he has managed to "give birth" to a really NEW model ThumpUp - and not just to an endless string of lights, lights, lights...
Offline river6109  
#398 Posted : 07 April 2015 04:38:28(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Well someone has had a bad Easter period or didn't get their Easter eggs on time.

Chris, I appreciate any information from anyone and any additional information is also welcome although it derives from the question(s) I've asked in the first place.
Initiative is my game and I have been criticized many times over converting older Märklin locos and it is good to hear that the new company took the initiative to change the inner works of locos especially the electronics, I think they've done a neat job.
it is also good to see or to know the cost of a loco before and after the 2 companies, as I said it is still well above my budget allowance. the exchange rate for a Swiss Franc to an Australian Dollar is about 1,37 and this makes a 750.00 Swiss Franc loco worth A$ 1.029.00. the Australian dollar has been devalued over the last 6 month, so you can see its not a choice for must of us.

I just bought a Roco SBB Ae 4/6 yesterday for A$ 100.00 including delivery and by no means am I trying to compare Roco with HAG but gives you an idea, the price difference, alright it has no sound, not all light functions, the housing is plastic etc etc.
the other problem I've got is, a loco comes along on ebay at such a price as mentioned above I can't let this slip through my fingers, so with other words, it would be sensible to save the money for a HAG loco and the ones I really would be interested in would be BLS locos,

talking about BLS has HAG ever produced a Ae 6/8 or previous older locos ?

regards.,
John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Unholz  
#399 Posted : 07 April 2015 05:58:45(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post

talking about BLS has HAG ever produced a Ae 6/8 or previous older locos ?


John, no (apart from the Ae 4/4, Ae 8/8 and Re 4/4) - but the Ae 6/8 was/is available from other manufacturers such as Roco, Roxy, Morep, etc.
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Offline mike c  
#400 Posted : 07 April 2015 06:31:53(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
There are many companies who have made small mistakes in production. How those companies deal with those mistakes goes a long way to build the reputation of the brand. When Herr Urech and the current team took over the operation of Hag Modelleisenbahn, in terms of quality, they had very big shoes to fill. They also had to deal with problems that arose during the transition when the company was for a short while in the hands of Herr Schoch (Tekswiss).

The new company has had some setbacks in terms of finish and product appearance, which they seem to have gradually improved. This effort took a while and it left a number of modellers disappointed. In comparison, the Luxembourg/Belgian company LS Models very quickly issued replacement shells when several Swiss models were missing details on one side of the coaches. This enabled that company to very quickly restore their reputation. That company still has some issues in terms of announcing models that remain in the pipeline for years, but it should serve as a guide for a company like Hag in how they should deal with the current market.

I bought one final model during the transition period, a Re 450 with blue doors and ZVV markings to complete the set of Fleischmann coaches that I had already bought.
I would still be interested in acquiring a red Re 460 without the "2000" markings on the lok faces. As far as new productions from the company, I have chosen to wait and see for the moment, so that I can see if the finish improves and whether the electronics are durable. I also should consider converting my remaining analog loks to digital.

Regards

Mike C
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