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Offline bodger  
#1 Posted : 09 March 2015 12:16:05(UTC)
bodger

United Kingdom   
Joined: 29/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: south
Just checking... I plan to replace my old blue transformers with newer blue ones. Anything I should be aware of?

Offline hennabm  
#2 Posted : 09 March 2015 15:45:24(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,040
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi bodger

So long as they are the correct voltage they should be OK.

Why not change them to a 3 pin and then you won't have to match the polarity as with a 2 pin operation?

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline steventrain  
#3 Posted : 09 March 2015 17:20:59(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
I use some 2 Pin to 3 Pin Converter Plug / Adapter.

No need to cut plug off wiring.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline bodger  
#4 Posted : 09 March 2015 17:50:03(UTC)
bodger

United Kingdom   
Joined: 29/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: south
Hi Mike - I shall probably go with Steventrain's solution as being simpler. It's how bodgers like to do things.

Thank you guys!
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Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 11 March 2015 22:15:32(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
There have been some changes in network voltages around the world (110-120 and 220-240) which can result in your 1980s/1990s or older blue Maerklin transformers putting out higher voltage than the announced levels and this can trip regular locomotives into reverse mode under certain circumstances and the activation of the reverse pulse can be in excess of the tolerance for newer locomotives equipped with ESU, FX or MFX decoders. The newer white transformers take this into account and ensure the the output voltage does not exceed 16V for operation and 22/23V for inversion pulse.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 11 March 2015 23:09:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
In the UK the nominal mains voltage was reduced from 240 V to 230 V. Using transformers made for 240 V on the current 230 V network can result in excessive reversing voltages that can damage modern digital decoders. It is recommended to use transformers made for 230 V when using modern digital locomotives.
With blue transformers, the nominal reversing voltage was 23 V or 24 V. With new grey transformers the nominal reversing voltage is 24 V. The measured peak reversing voltage of blue transformers can be 8+ V above that of current transformers - a difference one would not expect when looking at the transformer plate with the technical data.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline PJMärklin  
#7 Posted : 11 March 2015 23:43:18(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Hello Märklinists,


...talking about power to the track and safety, (and perhaps a bit off topic)...

Recent storms in Sydney blew the metal roof off a house which then shorted out the nearbye caternary power - now that could blow your transformer !!

UserPostedImage

Regards,

PJ
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Offline bodger  
#8 Posted : 11 March 2015 23:47:30(UTC)
bodger

United Kingdom   
Joined: 29/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: south
The plot thickens! I am strictly analogue though, in thought word and deed, so the problems with decoders are not a concern. I assume blue transformers and older locos are a good match notwithstanding changes in voltage - is that fair enough? Thank you for the information though mike c and ho - we live to learn.

Bodger
Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 12 March 2015 06:56:08(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
If the transformer (for the UK) was designed to produce 0-16VAC and reverse pulse of 22-23VAC from 240VAC, it should not produce a surcharge if the input was reduced to 230VAC.
What it can do is to cause an analog locomotive to move at it's top physical speed (beyond 100% on knob) rather than reversing if the reverse pulse is not quite high enough to trigger the relay/circuit (e.g. 21VAC instead of the required 23VAC). This will be more of a risk with older locomotives with a solenoid relay that triggers when it receives the full pulse. For this reason, I would recommend using the newer white transformers that are designed to be used with the current standard voltages.

For North America, where the mains voltage in some regions went from 110VAC to 120VAC and in Germany and parts of Europe where the voltage went from 220VAC to 230VAC, the use of the older transformers can generate 0-19VAC instead of the original limit of 16VAC and the reverse pulse is now in the range of 25-28VAC instead of 23VAC, which can damage some electronic reverse units and newer digital decoders.

The older blue transformers often were not equipped with polarized plugs, whereas the latest ones have this as a standard feature, which also ensures safer operation.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 12 March 2015 08:05:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If the transformer (for the UK) was designed to produce 0-16VAC and reverse pulse of 22-23VAC from 240VAC, it should not produce a surcharge if the input was reduced to 230VAC.
I haven't seen a Märklin transformer with a nominal reversing voltage of 22 V AC.
I have seen blue transformers with a nominal reversing voltage of 23 V. These are my worst transformers with measured reversing voltages over 30 V.

Current transformers (6646, 6647, 66470) have nominal reversing voltages of 24 V. The measured reversing voltage for a 6647 is around 25.5 V.

When a Märklin transformer made for 240 V is used on the current 230 V network, the reversing voltage can still be too high.

@Bodger: The higher reversing voltage is not a problem for purely analogue locos and decoders with DIP switches also seem to withstand the higher voltages.
Measure the reversing voltage before running digital locos that do not have DIP switches.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline PMPeter  
#11 Posted : 12 March 2015 16:45:11(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If the transformer (for the UK) was designed to produce 0-16VAC and reverse pulse of 22-23VAC from 240VAC, it should not produce a surcharge if the input was reduced to 230VAC.


When a Märklin transformer made for 240 V is used on the current 230 V network, the reversing voltage can still be too high.



Mike is correct that if a 240 V rated transformer is used on a 230 V system, the secondary side of the transformer voltage also goes down. Since the VA rating of a transformer is constant, what actually changes is the current and that could cause a problem.

Peter

Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 12 March 2015 17:16:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Mike is correct that if a 240 V rated transformer is used on a 230 V system, the secondary side of the transformer voltage also goes down.
There is no doubt about that. But still it is not safe to use such a transformer with modern digital decoders unless one measured the resulting reversing voltage.
At 240 V the reversing voltage is too high. At 230 V it can still be too high.

And remember that "230 V" means "230 V +/- 10%", allowing variation between 207 V and 253 V.
If you want to be on the safe side, measure the mains voltage, measure the reversing voltage - and calculate what the reversing voltage will be at 253 V. It should not exceed 28 V for modern decoders.
Since Bodger wants to stick to analogue locos, reversing voltage does not matter (yet) for him.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Dangermouse  
#13 Posted : 26 March 2015 11:05:43(UTC)
Dangermouse

United Kingdom   
Joined: 01/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 115
Location: Wales
I wouldn't regard the permanent adapter things as a bodge. I've seen commercially-available products with them fitted!

I swapped the plug on mine as I didn't know about the adapters, also fitted a neat switched plug. If I have the transformer plugged into a multi-way adapter with other stuff I can turn it off independently with the plug switch.
You can never have too many Silberlinge
Offline RayF  
#14 Posted : 26 March 2015 11:34:50(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The modern adapters available to convert 2 pin plugs for 3 pin sockets are very safe and easy to use. I have many of them all around the house.

There was a time when the only adapters available were the "shaver" adapters, which did not make good contact electrically or mechanically and were only recommened for a maximum of 3A.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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