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Offline DaleSchultz  
#1 Posted : 13 January 2015 16:42:54(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
about 20 years ago there was often a reference to using one of the wires in the booster connection to force an emergency power off of the Intellibox. At the time I had such a small layout that I never needed to add switches around the layout, but now with my new layout I will not be able to get to the IB fast enough if the need arises to shut things down quickly, so I am contemplating adding the emergency stop feature to the layout.

I seem to recall that one of the wires was a signal used by boosters to signal that a sort had occurred. By grounding this wire, one introduces a (false) signal indicating that a short has occurred on a booster and this results in the IB shutting off power.

Am I remembering this correctly?
Which wire is it?
Can anyone here remember this or have done it?
Any downside?

I know I could use an s88 feedback line and use that signal to shut off power using software, but that will only work if the software is running. The booster 'short' signal is pure hardware and always present.

I have some very industrial looking emergency stop buttons that I plan on using too!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 13 January 2015 19:07:58(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
about 20 years ago there was often a reference to using one of the wires in the booster connection to force an emergency power off of the Intellibox. At the time I had such a small layout that I never needed to add switches around the layout, but now with my new layout I will not be able to get to the IB fast enough if the need arises to shut things down quickly, so I am contemplating adding the emergency stop feature to the layout.

I seem to recall that one of the wires was a signal used by boosters to signal that a sort had occurred. By grounding this wire, one introduces a (false) signal indicating that a short has occurred on a booster and this results in the IB shutting off power.

Am I remembering this correctly?
Which wire is it?
Can anyone here remember this or have done it?
Any downside?

I know I could use an s88 feedback line and use that signal to shut off power using software, but that will only work if the software is running. The booster 'short' signal is pure hardware and always present.

I have some very industrial looking emergency stop buttons that I plan on using too!


I don't know off hand which wire it was, but it was in the cable to the 6015/7 boosters. I can't find my schematics at the moment, but that should put you on the track of it.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline perz  
#3 Posted : 14 January 2015 21:49:21(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
It is pin 5. See the following image I found:
booster connection
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by perz
Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 15 January 2015 15:29:36(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
thanks perz. I assume this diagram is probably from some site explaining how to drive the digital signal directly from a serial port, and from it we can see that pin 5 is the stop signal line.

i.e. it is not showing anything about how to introduce the false short signal. I presume shorting pins 4 and 5 need to be bridged.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline tommycox  
#5 Posted : 25 February 2015 20:52:33(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
I use an iPhone or an iPod Touch to as an emergency STOP button for my Intellibox. Would that work in your situation, Dale?
Tom
Offline tommycox  
#6 Posted : 25 February 2015 20:56:20(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Ummm... using JMRI/WiThrottle Lite of course. I forgot to include that.
Tom
Offline cookee_nz  
#7 Posted : 25 February 2015 21:20:57(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,946
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Can I ask, why not simply install a few emergency-stop buttons around the layout directly wired across the track - you are not doing anything that a derailed train would not do if the wheels or slider short out the track?

Advantage to this is that there will always be a section of track nearby so you won't have to run wires back to the Booster etc.

But not owning a Booster myself (I do have an IB) there may be some aspect I have not considered - ie if you trigger a short on the IB, does that automatically shut off the Booster also, and vice-versa?

Always looking for simple solutions

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 26 February 2015 10:27:32(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
Cookee, I suspect Tim may have this issue with his layout, given it is most likely much larger than Dale's (2300 sq ft)
Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 03 March 2015 18:43:25(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: tommycox Go to Quoted Post
I use an iPhone or an iPod Touch to as an emergency STOP button for my Intellibox. Would that work in your situation, Dale?
Tom


I also have such software and mobile device control, but they suffer from a few disadvantages
a) they need to be in your hand and running when you suddenly need it. No time to switch apps, or navigate...
b) the software stack, connection to the central unit must work without delay.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 03 March 2015 18:46:01(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Can I ask, why not simply install a few emergency-stop buttons around the layout directly wired across the track - you are not doing anything that a derailed train would not do if the wheels or slider short out the track?

Advantage to this is that there will always be a section of track nearby so you won't have to run wires back to the Booster etc.

But not owning a Booster myself (I do have an IB) there may be some aspect I have not considered - ie if you trigger a short on the IB, does that automatically shut off the Booster also, and vice-versa?

Always looking for simple solutions

Cookee


Shorting out the track is NOT a good solution. There is a chance of frying the booster or IB itself. I also have fuses in the supply to these devices and they sometime blow before the booster-IB stack shuts off. I dont want to have to replace a fuse every time I make an emergency halt, and certainly dont want to fry the hardware either.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 03 March 2015 22:51:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Dale,

I'm pretty sure I once saw how an emergency button can be connected.
IIRC it had to connect one pin from the 5-pin booster socket with one pin from the 3-pin booster socket. Both sockets have turn-off pins, but with opposite polarity (Märklin vs. rest of the world).
I spent some time on Google, but couldn't find the page again.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline cookee_nz  
#12 Posted : 04 March 2015 00:54:33(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,946
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Can I ask, why not simply install a few emergency-stop buttons around the layout directly wired across the track - you are not doing anything that a derailed train would not do if the wheels or slider short out the track?

Advantage to this is that there will always be a section of track nearby so you won't have to run wires back to the Booster etc.

But not owning a Booster myself (I do have an IB) there may be some aspect I have not considered - ie if you trigger a short on the IB, does that automatically shut off the Booster also, and vice-versa?

Always looking for simple solutions

Cookee


Shorting out the track is NOT a good solution. There is a chance of frying the booster or IB itself. I also have fuses in the supply to these devices and they sometime blow before the booster-IB stack shuts off. I dont want to have to replace a fuse every time I make an emergency halt, and certainly dont want to fry the hardware either.


Hi Dale,

Appreciate the response but I'm really none-the-wiser. Right from the early days of Digital there was plenty of information that short-circuits need not be feared on a digital layout because the reaction/shutoff time of the controllers was so fast that damage would not result.

I appreciate that the original query was probably more based on stopping an "about to happen" incident in which case what you really want is a button that simulates the 'Stop' button on the controllers. If equipment is so fragile (or poorly designed) that a derailment, or something dropped across the track causing a short actually fries the equipment, I would seriously consider avoiding those products.

I've shorted many times through derailments and never has any item suffered resulting damage.

Derailments on a model railway are a fact of life and the control equipment should be absolutely impervious to it.

We can of course agree to disagree, we're all gents here afterall but I'd be REALLY interested in a factual proven incident of a typical short-circuit actually causing damage. The only time I could see it not possibly being effective would be a derailment that unfortunately happened across an isolated section between two controllers/boosters? - even then, the designers should still be anticipating the possibility of the worst-case scenario.

These are afterall products aimed at a market which includes children who make mistakes.

Given that your recollection is from maybe 20 years ago or thereabouts, I wonder if it might have been an article in Tom Catherall's Digital Newsletter or similar?

Interesting topic all the same. For me, I'd still pursue a button to short the track (pending further good reasons why this is a really bad idea)???

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline xxup  
#13 Posted : 04 March 2015 01:59:53(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,452
Location: Australia
On the other hand, I lost my Intellibox when there was a short on my 6017 boosted section.. And I know that I am not the only one to lose an Intellibox this way.. So while the majority of shorts are harmless, the Intellibox/6017 combination does require more caution.. Perhaps the signal to the Intellibox from the booster is too slow or perhaps the signal itself is a "boosted" voltage? So I understand where Dale is coming from with this idea.
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by xxup
Offline DaleSchultz  
#14 Posted : 22 March 2015 16:27:54(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I run an IB and two boosters. Each has a fast blow fuse on their power supply.
I add the fuse because I would rather replace a cheap fuse than fry a booster or the IB.

My tracks are are well connected, i.e. if there is any short, lots of power can flow. On a number of occasions, a short has resulted in the fuse blowing.

Since there is a digital signal line that indicates that there has been a short, it is obvious that one should use that rather than producing an ACTUAL short which forces one to rely on the current cut off of the devices, no matter how well they are designed. Shit, it may even be cheaper to lets the trains collide than short out the electronics!

Anyway I am still on the hunt to find out exactly which line of the cable should be grounded.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#15 Posted : 06 May 2015 22:26:28(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I pinged long time Mäklinist John J McVeigh and got this answer:

If you create a short circuit (e.g., by means of an SPST momentary-contact pushbutton switch between either Pin 1 or Pin 2 of the IB's Booster port and Pin 5 of the same port, this should cause the IB to believe that there is a short-circuit on the track in a Booster-fed power district, so that the IB should go into protective mode.

Pin 5 of the Booster port is the one that is closest to the s88 port. Pin 1 of the Booster port is the one that is furthest away from the s88 port.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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