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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 01 June 2014 11:19:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
I need to control start voltage with my locomotiv,but there is no CV2 adress.
Why not?? Confused
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline French_Fabrice  
#2 Posted : 01 June 2014 11:28:15(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,475
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I need to control start voltage with my locomotiv,but there is no CV2 adress.
Why not?? Confused


What do you mean by "There is no CV2 address?"
- 1) My decoder doesn't support CV2
or
- 2) I don't see CV2 is the CV list of my decoder
If 1), sorry I can't help you
If 2), not seeing the CV in the CV list doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can manually add CVs in the CV list: add the CV number, provide a name, then read it; afterwards if needed, then change the associated value and write it back in the decoder. Your loco must be on the programming track.

Cheers
Fabrice
Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 01 June 2014 15:11:37(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
I guess you are joking...?
I cannot use CV2 adress,which is important to create an nice curve of acc and dec too.
I think we call it as linear curve in the digital world.

Goofy attached the following image(s):
DSC_0005.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 01 June 2014 15:50:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I need to control start voltage with my locomotiv,but there is no CV2 adress.
Why not?? Confused
This is not a DCC decoder.
You cannot change this setting with an MS2.
You need a Central Station (60212 through 60215) or an ECoS to change this setting. Or a CU 6021. Or an Intellibox. Maybe an MS1 can do it, but I'm not sure.

Märklin locos come with perfect default settings and there is no need to change anything (sez Märklin Magazin).

BTW: there is no CV 6 with mfx decoders and only ECoS and Central Stations can change the speed curve.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 01 June 2014 16:23:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You cannot change this setting with an MS2.
I don't like to contradict myself, but here we go. Blushing

Just go to "ändra lok" (Edit loco) and change Vmin. Minimum speed (known as CV 2 or Vmin) is one of those few settings that can be changed with an MS2.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 01 June 2014 18:44:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You cannot change this setting with an MS2.
I don't like to contradict myself, but here we go. Blushing

Just go to "ändra lok" (Edit loco) and change Vmin. Minimum speed (known as CV 2 or Vmin) is one of those few settings that can be changed with an MS2.



Vmin is for minimum speed.
It´s start voltage i´m looking for.
I did changed Vmin from 18(standard) to 1.
No difference what i see to start locomotiv.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 01 June 2014 19:04:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
CV 2 is Vmin.

New mfx decoders do not run very slow with those new three-pole motors.
H0 attached the following image(s):
cs2_dcc_cvs_en.png
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#8 Posted : 02 June 2014 09:30:55(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Okey
Thanks Tom!
But when i did changed value of Vmin,it was no difference in start voltage.
Seems mfx is crap... Blink
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#9 Posted : 02 June 2014 09:53:36(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
The problem is, that the Vmin-Setting of the MS2 config will only change the decoder setting, if CV2 is supported. There are loco decoder with CV2 support and there are others without.

Your example (I don't know which model) CV2 is not supported. You will not be able to change the Vmin.

Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 02 June 2014 11:24:16(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,666
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
The problem is, that the Vmin-Setting of the MS2 config will only change the decoder setting, if CV2 is supported. There are loco decoder with CV2 support and there are others without.

Your example (I don't know which model) CV2 is not supported. You will not be able to change the Vmin.



Hi,
This is also my experience.
When using my CS1, most of the CVs show on the screen (advanced settings) for any locomotive, but only on some does it actually change anything.

I don't find that particularly annoying anyway, I just accept the limitations on some of the models that I have.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 02 June 2014 12:11:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Your example (I don't know which model) CV2 is not supported. You will not be able to change the Vmin.
I presume we are talking about the BR 64 #39644.
All mfx decoders support Vmin. And AFAIK all DCC decoders support it, too.
Some El Cheapo fx decoders do not support it (but the page from the manual makes clear that we are not talking about an El Cheapo fx decoder, but a sound decoder).

Goofy, do you see a difference when you try larger values? Maybe 32?
And are we talking about your BR 64? Or another loco?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#12 Posted : 02 June 2014 13:01:29(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello Tom,
YXou are right, it is the 39644: http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/39644_betrieb.pdf

CV2 should be changeable with CS2.

Another point:
On page 28 and page 34 You can see the decoder. It is a 14 Pin version, not a mtc21 decoder!

Can You verify this? Is there really a PluX or some other kind of proprietary decoder in this loco??? Plux 14 doesn't exist, so what is it?

PS: OK, it is mtc21, the picture in the manual is wrong. Here I found a picture from the 39644 interior: http://s14.directupload....ages/130818/roeji6do.jpg
Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 02 June 2014 19:28:27(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
I did found out,that in the manual it´s stand CV5 which are Vmax in speed.
So if it stand in the manual,why not CV2 too which are Vmin in speed...?? Confused

And yes...it is BR64 i´m writing about.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 03 June 2014 08:20:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
So if it stand in the manual,why not CV2 too which are Vmin in speed...??
That would have many disadvantages.

  • A complete list of CVs would fill several pages => higher printing costs
  • A complete list would allow CU 6021 owners to use 16 functions per loco => Märklin would sell fewer CS2
  • It would make MS2 owners envious as they cannot use the CVs anyway
  • Using undocumented CVs voids the warranty (sez Märklin) => the fewer CVs they document, the better for them
  • All CVs can easily be changed with a CS2 => buy a CS2 to increase Märklin’s profit
  • Undocumented CVs can be removed at any time => future models can come with more crippled decoders with more restrictions


Even with a complete CV list you cannot change the brightness of lights or alter the speed curve (this changes can be made with Central Station or ECoS).

BTW: The factory-installed decoders are crippled mSD without DCC.
You can use the CV list for MM that comes with the mSD (but not all CVs are supported by factory-installed decoders).
As mentioned a few times the list won't help with an MS2. But there are some useful CVs for 6021 users.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#15 Posted : 03 June 2014 08:36:22(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You can use the CV list for MM that comes with the mSD (but not all CVs are supported by factory-installed decoders).
As mentioned a few times the list won't help with an MS2. But there are some useful CVs for 6021 users.


Why won't they help with a MS2 but with a 6021?

All CVs, which can be changed in MM mode can be changed with a MS2, too. You have to set up a MM loco in the MS2 with the MM address of the mfx loco. Switch off the mfx protocoll. Then, You can change the MM CVs with the MS2, but only the MM CVs. The advanced mfx CVs can only be accessed with the CS2.

Moritz

Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 03 June 2014 09:31:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
I give up...
No more mfx and Märklin trains! Angry
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 03 June 2014 09:46:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
All CVs, which can be changed in MM mode can be changed with a MS2, too. You have to set up a MM loco in the MS2 with the MM address of the mfx loco. Switch off the mfx protocoll. Then, You can change the MM CVs with the MS2, but only the MM CVs.
You wrote that before but did you ever try it?

I tried it - it worked for ESU mfx decoders, but not for Märklin mfx decoders.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#18 Posted : 03 June 2014 11:00:18(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,712
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I give up...
No more mfx and Märklin trains! Angry


Anders, I have stopped buying Märklin locos for this fact: mfx and I haven't tried to buy a loco with mfx and than sell the decoder and when it comes to sine motors I haven't tried them either with an ESU decoder.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Goofy  
#19 Posted : 03 June 2014 17:25:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
So if it stand in the manual,why not CV2 too which are Vmin in speed...??
That would have many disadvantages.

  • A complete list of CVs would fill several pages => higher printing costs
  • A complete list would allow CU 6021 owners to use 16 functions per loco => Märklin would sell fewer CS2
  • It would make MS2 owners envious as they cannot use the CVs anyway
  • Using undocumented CVs voids the warranty (sez Märklin) => the fewer CVs they document, the better for them
  • All CVs can easily be changed with a CS2 => buy a CS2 to increase Märklin’s profit
  • Undocumented CVs can be removed at any time => future models can come with more crippled decoders with more restrictions




Cough cough...
Really?
Not a chance what you think and might.
It was better before they did start fool customer with the new digital system,specially the new generation mfx decoder made of Märklin.
Sorry Tom...but yours thought doesn´t support customer anyway.
By the way...CU6021 don´t produce anymore time,so why to pick up equal against CS2...??
With hidden information about mfx decoder doesn´t help and support customer.
I didn´t know before,that i must upgrade MS2 with higher version to 1.83 to use mfx+ decoder.
Why??
Because it didn´t stand in the locomotiv(s) manual.
There is no Vmin in my BR64 locomotiv,which should been.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 04 June 2014 00:09:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Cough cough...
Really?
Sorry, I'm old-fashioned. I sometimes make ironic remarks without using smilies.


Does your dealer have a Central Station 2? Maybe he can help setting up the loco to your taste.

It should be possible to slow the loco down using the load regulation parameter "reference voltage". But this is something an MS2 cannot change.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 04 June 2014 06:54:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Cough cough...
Really?
Sorry, I'm old-fashioned. I sometimes make ironic remarks without using smilies.


Does your dealer have a Central Station 2? Maybe he can help setting up the loco to your taste.

It should be possible to slow the loco down using the load regulation parameter "reference voltage". But this is something an MS2 cannot change.


Which explain why Märklins mfx is not better than ESU decoder in both DCC and MM protocol to handle with MS2 and not only CS2 or Ecos.
I feel sorry now,when i did start Märklin again.


H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#22 Posted : 04 June 2014 08:08:27(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Which explain why Märklins mfx is not better than ESU decoder in both DCC and MM protocol to handle with MS2 and not only CS2 or Ecos.
I feel sorry now,when i did start Märklin again.


A Esu DCC decoder (LokPilot, LokSound) can be configured with a MS2 without any problems, just uncomfortable because You have to change each CV after the other.

The same for Märklin upgrade decoder (mLD / mSD), they can also be configured with the MS2 in DCC mode, without any limitations and with the same comfort like the Esu.

Only pure mfx decoders like the mfx standard decoders in Märklin mfx-locos or Esu mfx-only-Decoders (like LokSound 3/3.5) can be configured with the MS2 only for some standard MM CV values. But for example it isn't possible to change the function mapping, activating AUX ports and so on.

Therefore, the best choice is to have locos either with Märklin mLD / mSD upgrade decoder or any other DCC compatible upgrade decoder from other companies like Esui, Zimo, Tams, Lenz, ...

Standard-mfx from Märklin and pure-mfx-Decoders from Esu are not a good choice, If You need to change some enhanced functions.

Moritz
Offline biedmatt  
#23 Posted : 04 June 2014 14:25:17(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Which explain why Märklins mfx is not better than ESU decoder in both DCC and MM protocol to handle with MS2 and not only CS2 or Ecos.
I feel sorry now,when i did start Märklin again.


A Esu DCC decoder (LokPilot, LokSound) can be configured with a MS2 without any problems, just uncomfortable because You have to change each CV after the other.

The same for Märklin upgrade decoder (mLD / mSD), they can also be configured with the MS2 in DCC mode, without any limitations and with the same comfort like the Esu.

Only pure mfx decoders like the mfx standard decoders in Märklin mfx-locos or Esu mfx-only-Decoders (like LokSound 3/3.5) can be configured with the MS2 only for some standard MM CV values. But for example it isn't possible to change the function mapping, activating AUX ports and so on.

Therefore, the best choice is to have locos either with Märklin mLD / mSD upgrade decoder or any other DCC compatible upgrade decoder from other companies like Esui, Zimo, Tams, Lenz, ...

Standard-mfx from Märklin and pure-mfx-Decoders from Esu are not a good choice, If You need to change some enhanced functions.

Moritz


Okay, so why does Marklin give you a decoder with limited functionality in their lokos? Is it cheaper to produce than the decoders you buy from them individually? I can't see program time as an issue. You need to install an operating program. A few more bits of information in that decoder will not add to the time taken to program it.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#24 Posted : 04 June 2014 14:39:44(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Okay, so why does Marklin give you a decoder with limited functionality in their lokos?

I don't know why. Probably, Märklin hopes people will buy a CS2.

But I think, it would be better to sell Locos with full mfx/DCC like mLD/mSD. But I'm not Märklin.

Offline biedmatt  
#25 Posted : 04 June 2014 16:03:00(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Okay, so why does Marklin give you a decoder with limited functionality in their lokos?

I don't know why. Probably, Märklin hopes people will buy a CS2.

But I think, it would be better to sell Locos with full mfx/DCC like mLD/mSD. But I'm not Märklin.



LOL Yeah, none of us are Marklin.

The more I learn, the happier I am with the direction I have taken.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#26 Posted : 04 June 2014 16:08:12(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
pure-mfx-Decoders from Esu are not a good choice, If You need to change some enhanced functions.

AFAIK there is no such thing as a pure ESU mfx decoder (at least not in retail). The ESU LokPilot 4.0 M4 is a full blown decoder with the same possibilities as the standard LokPilot. The M4 supports DCC, DCC Railcom+, MM and mfx (M4). It comes in a variety of plugs (Plux22, MTC21, NEM 8-pin etc.). To my knowledge the only thing that seperates it from the standard LokPilot is the way it handles vMin and vMax. The M4 (or any mfx decoder for that matter) calculates a speed curve relative to vMin and vMax. This is also why you cannot disable the speed curve on the M4.

You can tune the M4 by progamming its CVs using DCC the way you would any LokPilot.

When it comes to motor control the LokPilot 4.0 family has a very cool auto-tuning feature:

1. Put the locomotive on a straight piece of track. The track must be long enough for the loco to be able to run at full speed for two seconds.
2. Make sure that function 1 is not active and the speed is 0.
3. Using PoM (CS2 or MS2) enter the value 0 into CV54.
4. Now activate function 1. The locomotive will run at full speed for two seconds. When it's done, it will have near perfect motor control settings.
5. You can do some final adjustments, but for the majority of locomotives the auto-detected settings will be good enough.

WARNING: You will not be able to control the locomotive during the process, so make sure that it cannot run off the track!

Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#27 Posted : 04 June 2014 17:07:55(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
AFAIK there is no such thing as a pure ESU mfx decoder (at least not in retail).

The Esu LokSound V3M4 was a pure mfx decoder. And You may find it sometimes on ebay or somewhere else. Therfore, it is good to know, that this one is limited for MS2 users.

Moritz

Edited by user 28 February 2015 20:33:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Goofy  
#28 Posted : 04 June 2014 19:40:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
It´s waste of time for me to focus on Märklins mfx decoder,so i decides to fix the problem.
I thank you to all of you who did answered topics here. ThumpUp
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#29 Posted : 28 February 2015 20:29:40(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
All CVs, which can be changed in MM mode can be changed with a MS2, too. You have to set up a MM loco in the MS2 with the MM address of the mfx loco. Switch off the mfx protocoll. Then, You can change the MM CVs with the MS2, but only the MM CVs.
You wrote that before but did you ever try it?

I tried it - it worked for ESU mfx decoders, but not for Märklin mfx decoders.



Hello,
yes, I tried it several times. Today, I changed CV2 on my Märklin 37580 BR491. Here is a video, demonstrating the speed in driving state 1 first with CV2=10 and then with CV2=1:



You will see, there is a big difference in the minimum speed. With CV2=1, the minimum speed is approximately 1,15km/h!
And yes, here too, CV2 is not documented as configurable CV value. But it can be changed in MM-mode with the MS2!

Greetings,
Moritz
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