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Offline akerstdi  
#1 Posted : 26 December 2014 13:59:10(UTC)
akerstdi

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 82
Morning everyone! Long story short, I don't make a lot of money so when it comes to buying a locomotive I want to make sure my money is spent well.

So here is the Question: What is the general opinion on Roco steam locomotives? Are they good any good, such as running noise, sound clarity, and overall build quality. I just don't want to waste my money on an inferior engine, when I could save a little longer and get a Marklin? The Loco I was looking at is the Roco 68173. Any and all opinions are welcome. Thanks everyone, and Happy New Year!

Edited by moderator 06 January 2015 18:48:01(UTC)  | Reason: title clarity

Offline Mark_1602  
#2 Posted : 26 December 2014 14:39:35(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hello,

I've managed to find some test results of Roco steam engines on a German web site. There's a test of a Roco DB version of the Class 50, which should be fairly similar to the one you are interested in:

Testberichte.de Roco steam engines

The test says it's very good, and the Roco website says that the Class 50 has a five-pole motor.

I'm a Märklin fan, but to be honest I have to tell you that most Märklin steam engines (though not all) are fitted with three-pole motors nowadays. I'm not sure, but I suppose that the new Märklin Class 50 steam engines come with three-pole motors.

The only restriction about Roco is that the wheels are RP 25, so newer Roco engines might derail on older K-tracks or M-tracks. Märklin rails are not made for RP25 wheels, except for the Trix C-rail, but that's DC anyway. Some people say that RP 25 wheels run on Märklin AC C-rails without any problems, but I can't tell you for sure.

Regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#3 Posted : 26 December 2014 18:51:17(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi,

I forgot to tell you that you might also consider an older Austrian Br 50 made by Märklin, such as the 37832. Market prices fall a few years after a model is produced, so you can get such engines cheaper with a little luck. That one still has a Märklin five-pole motor, so you would avoid the quality problems associated with the recent Märklin models. I have the 37831, the DSB version of the Br 50 released in the same year (2010), and that one is flawless.

Best regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline akerstdi  
#4 Posted : 26 December 2014 19:38:27(UTC)
akerstdi

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 82
Thanks for the info M-Classics! I'll definitely look into the Marklin 37831 and 37832. I'm running Marklin C-track with a MS2, so if there is anyone who has used the RP 25 wheels with any success or failure. Please let me know.

Thanks Everyone!

Doran
Offline GDJTrain65  
#5 Posted : 26 December 2014 21:09:03(UTC)
GDJTrain65

Sweden   
Joined: 13/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 88
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Originally Posted by: akerstdi Go to Quoted Post
Morning everyone! Long story short, I don't make a lot of money so when it comes to buying a locomotive I want to make sure my money is spent well.

So here is the Question: What is the general opinion on Roco steam locomotives? Are they good any good, such as running noise, sound clarity, and overall build quality. I just don't want to waste my money on an inferior engine, when I could save a little longer and get a Marklin? The Loco I was looking at is the Roco 68173. Any and all opinions are welcome. Thanks everyone, and Happy New Year!


I have some locos from Roco , (some steamers,) and other brands too, and in my opinion Roco locos runs excellent on Märklin C-track, which I use. I have no problems whatsoever with any of them and they run at least as good as Märklin locos and the quality feels very solid.

I have heard that there are , now and then, some problems using Roco locos with K- and M-track, but since you use C-track I think you should be doing well with this.
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Offline mrmarklin  
#6 Posted : 27 December 2014 02:29:42(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
I wouldn't waste a dime on Roco Loks.Cursing

They are largely plastic and use tender drive. They are designed as DC Loks first, and only adapted to Marklin running later. While I have seen some run well on Marklin track, I've seen just as many not do so well. My experience with brand "X" Loks is that while more detailed sometimes, you'll tend to find this detail littering your layout.

Marklin Loks have metal boilers and increasingly, metal tenders as well. Go for the quality.BigGrin


In addition there are no price guides so resale value is very low.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline analogmike  
#7 Posted : 27 December 2014 03:52:50(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
didn't fleischmann also use tender drive? it seems like putting the cart in front of the horse. hey, lets not have a lok at all. just put the motor in the caboose! WOW.. look at all the money i've been wasting all these years! i've had a few roco cars and they wouldn't stay on the track at all. i do use m-track and i understand that c-track is much more precise (better for those funny #25 wheels i guess). marklin,marklin,marklin. mike
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 27 December 2014 08:37:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Doran!
Originally Posted by: akerstdi Go to Quoted Post
I'm running Marklin C-track with a MS2, so if there is anyone who has used the RP 25 wheels with any success or failure.
Some newer Roco models (including the models discussed here) have smaller flanges, but AFAIK those are not RP 25 wheel sets (Roco don't call 'em RP 25 and I won't).

I have many Roco steamers, but they all the normal wheel sets with larger flanges. They run well.
If I have to choose between a driven metal boiler and a driven plastic tender, then I will go for quality (and often it will be the plastic tender).

The "handmade sample" of the BR 50.40 that Märklin showed around was made with a Roco loco frame. But as expected the final model came with the typical Märklin wheels, not with the fine wheels the "handmade sample" had.
There is one episode of Märklin TV with an interview with the CEO sitting in front of a wallpaper showing the "handmade sample" with the Roco frame. LOL

Recently Roco mostly use sound decoders from Zimo: very good load regulation and very good sound.

If in doubt about the smaller flanges, consider older Roco models with larger flanges (older BR 50 models have a minor imperfection with the steering, but all in all they still look great).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 27 December 2014 11:10:30(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
There's a lot of dodgy information in previous posts in this thread.

As Tom has pointed out, Roco do not use RP25 wheels on their 3-rail locos. They fit their 3 rail locos with wheels with larger flanges that conform to the standard for 3 rail track.

Most derailments with non-Marklin locos is due to incompatible couplings. Watch out when you fit Marklin close couplers onto Roco locos because the coupler tops can foul the buffers, causing derailment. It's better to keep the Roco coupler which matches the Marklin Relex coupler. Another source of derailments is trying to run a loco on a radius which is sharper than recommended.

Roco wagons may derail on Marklin track because you are trying to run them with the original 2-rail wheels. Roco make the correct wheels for 3 rail track for most of their wagons. They are cheap, and some dealers will swap them for you for free.

The statement that most recent Marklin locos have 3 pole motors is not correct. Some do but not most. So do many of the recent Roco, Fleischmann and other maker's locos. The truth is that recent 3 pole motors can be good quality and smoother and quieter than older 5 pole motors.

If you want to know for sure whether other locos match Marklin for quality, buy one and try it out. My personal experience is that other maker's locos today tend to be more detailed than historic Marklin locos, but also more delicate because of this. The same is true for recent Marklin highly detailed locos.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 27 December 2014 12:05:11(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: akerstdi Go to Quoted Post
Morning everyone! Long story short, I don't make a lot of money so when it comes to buying a locomotive I want to make sure my money is spent well.
So here is the Question: What is the general opinion on Roco steam locomotives? Are they good any good, such as running noise, sound clarity, and overall build quality. I just don't want to waste my money on an inferior engine, when I could save a little longer and get a Marklin? The Loco I was looking at is the Roco 68173. Any and all opinions are welcome. Thanks everyone, and Happy New Year!


Hi Akers,
None of the model train brands currently available, would be in business if their product was no good.

I have models in a wide variety of brand names that go back 60 years, a few have their problems, most don't have any at all.
I usually sell problem ones.

I think you just have to take your chances. If you buy new, you get a warranty. You could not ask for more.
Make sure you buy from a dealer with whom you can communicate.
That said, observation of my models leads me to believe that Marklin engineering (for mass produced articles), is the pinnacle of the craft.

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 28 December 2014 00:52:01(UTC)  | Reason: clarified the brand names

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline Mark_1602  
#11 Posted : 27 December 2014 15:40:38(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
There's a lot of dodgy information in previous posts in this thread.

As Tom has pointed out, Roco do not use RP25 wheels on their 3-rail locos. They fit their 3 rail locos with wheels with larger flanges that conform to the standard for 3 rail track.

Most derailments with non-Marklin locos is due to incompatible couplings. Watch out when you fit Marklin close couplers onto Roco locos because the coupler tops can foul the buffers, causing derailment. It's better to keep the Roco coupler which matches the Marklin Relex coupler. Another source of derailments is trying to run a loco on a radius which is sharper than recommended.

Roco wagons may derail on Marklin track because you are trying to run them with the original 2-rail wheels. Roco make the correct wheels for 3 rail track for most of their wagons. They are cheap, and some dealers will swap them for you for free.

The statement that most recent Marklin locos have 3 pole motors is not correct. Some do but not most. So do many of the recent Roco, Fleischmann and other maker's locos. The truth is that recent 3 pole motors can be good quality and smoother and quieter than older 5 pole motors.

If you want to know for sure whether other locos match Marklin for quality, buy one and try it out. My personal experience is that other maker's locos today tend to be more detailed than historic Marklin locos, but also more delicate because of this. The same is true for recent Marklin highly detailed locos.



Hello Ray,

I think the purpose of this thread was to give advice to a forum member about how to spend his money best.

But just for the record: I've had a look at the Märklin 2014 news catalogue, and most steam engines in there definitely have a three-pole motor. Märklin doesn't use expensive motors with bell-shapes armatures (Glockenanker) any longer, so all of those models got a three-pole, as well as the latest designs, and those two categories are the majority of steam engines featured in this year's news catalogue (as well as last year's). The Br 52s and the Br 50 in the starter set are older designs with Märklin motors. I made the claim about current steam engines above, and that's true. Mr Bächle has claimed on Märkin TV that Märklin can't use five-pole motors on most steam engines due to lack of space. Most people don't believe that, but he was trying to justify the fact that there are now three-pole motors in most steam engines. (In the new Br 03 Cab Forward there seems to be enough space for a five-pole motor.)

As for Roco's RP25 wheels, I found that information in a discussion on another forum. There a very experienced and serious model railroader claimed that Roco uses RP25 wheels on its latest AC models (not on older designs) without telling customers. On the other forum, nobody contradicted that claim, so I suppose it's not bogus. Anyway, even RP 25 run on Märklin C-rails, so there is no restriction for Märklin users as long as they have C-rails.

To get back to the original question, my advice would be to buy an older Märklin design such as the 37832 as those models can be had at a lower price and don't cause problems, as I know from experience. However, it should be a dealer who accepts Paypal as well as returns just in case and offers some kind of warranty. Spending a lot of money on a new-generation Märklin Br 50 doesn't seem to be sound advice to me if the MRR budget is limited.
I haven't said that three-pole motors are bad, but I've read so many contradictory claims about them that I don't want to invest my money in such models except if the price is less than 250 euros. I don't mind what other people like or buy. Most model I buy now are vintage anyway, and I'm glad that most people don't think like me because that would push up prices.

The Roco steam engine is also a good option (with C-rails), and that would be a new steam engine with a full warranty, so I don't see any risk there, given Roco's good reputation and the very good test results.

Best regards, Mark

Edited by user 27 December 2014 20:10:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline NS1200  
#12 Posted : 27 December 2014 16:03:44(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: akerstdi Go to Quoted Post
Morning everyone! Long story short, I don't make a lot of money so when it comes to buying a locomotive I want to make sure my money is spent well.

So here is the Question: What is the general opinion on Roco steam locomotives? Are they good any good, such as running noise, sound clarity, and overall build quality. I just don't want to waste my money on an inferior engine, when I could save a little longer and get a Marklin? The Loco I was looking at is the Roco 68173. Any and all opinions are welcome. Thanks everyone, and Happy New Year!


I have been tempted to buy Roco,and Piko for that matter,more than once.
Still,i always sticked to Marklin,it is the kind of loyalty you feel when married for a longer time,plenty of beauty out there,but only one to comfort you at home.
And surely Marklin is not without flaws,but sooner or later they will come up with a model you really like,and is worth waiting for.
As such i would save a little longer!

If it needs to be Austrian,why not opt for Marklin 37832,full sound,on sale on internet for around Euro 300.-?
The official selling price of Roco 68173 is Euro 369.-.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 28 December 2014 00:14:15(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
There's a lot of dodgy information in previous posts in this thread.

As Tom has pointed out, Roco do not use RP25 wheels on their 3-rail locos. They fit their 3 rail locos with wheels with larger flanges that conform to the standard for 3 rail track.

Most derailments with non-Marklin locos is due to incompatible couplings. Watch out when you fit Marklin close couplers onto Roco locos because the coupler tops can foul the buffers, causing derailment. It's better to keep the Roco coupler which matches the Marklin Relex coupler. Another source of derailments is trying to run a loco on a radius which is sharper than recommended.

Roco wagons may derail on Marklin track because you are trying to run them with the original 2-rail wheels. Roco make the correct wheels for 3 rail track for most of their wagons. They are cheap, and some dealers will swap them for you for free.

The statement that most recent Marklin locos have 3 pole motors is not correct. Some do but not most. So do many of the recent Roco, Fleischmann and other maker's locos. The truth is that recent 3 pole motors can be good quality and smoother and quieter than older 5 pole motors.

If you want to know for sure whether other locos match Marklin for quality, buy one and try it out. My personal experience is that other maker's locos today tend to be more detailed than historic Marklin locos, but also more delicate because of this. The same is true for recent Marklin highly detailed locos.



Hello Ray,

I think the purpose of this thread was to give advice to a forum member about how to spend his money best.

....

Best regards, Mark


I thought that's what I was doing!

Many of the posts giving advice are often no more than the opinions of the poster. I was attempting to put some impartial information on record.

When I mention recent products I am writing about the last 5 or so years. I admit that the 2014 products do contain a higher percentage of 3-pole motors. I suspect that as new suppliers are sought that 5-pole motors will again be fitted in new locos, but only because many buyers are biased against 3 pole motors even when they are perfectly good.

As To RP 25, this is a very fine scale wheel standard not commonly used on european model railways. Most European manufacturers use NEM standards, one NEM standard defines wheels for 2 rail and another for 3 rail . RP 25 is often found on US models. If roco is using RP 25 for european models they are not following correct standards.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 28 December 2014 08:55:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
As for Roco's RP25 wheels, I found that information in a discussion on another forum. There a very experienced and serious model railroader claimed that Roco uses RP25 wheels on its latest AC models (not on older designs) without telling customers.
No link given.


I read on a serious forum that RP-25 wheel sets do not work well on Roco turnouts.
http://www.drehscheibe-o...0710,5350710#msg-5350710
Yes, Roco use smaller flanges. Yes, RP-25 has smaller flanges. Yes, people complain that recent Roco AC wheel sets not always follow NEM 340.

RP-25 specifies the wheel contour (with 10 different codes):
http://nmra.org/sites/de.../pdf/RP-25%202009.07.pdf
Wheel contour is one thing. Wheel spacing is another.

Progress requires experimenting. Roco are experimenting with smaller flanges - they have done this for years.

BTW: Model 68173 was announced with low flanges in the new items brochure. In the product database they do not mention low flanges.
On June 13, 2014 a dealer released an announcement from Roco that they refrain from using low flanges with AC models in the future.
http://www.mostviertler-...bahnhof.at/info_memg.htm

So it seems Roco tried something new, failed, and returned to larger flanges six months ago.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 28 December 2014 09:58:49(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks Tom,

That makes things a bit clearer.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Mark_1602  
#16 Posted : 28 December 2014 12:09:47(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
As for Roco's RP25 wheels, I found that information in a discussion on another forum. There a very experienced and serious model railroader claimed that Roco uses RP25 wheels on its latest AC models (not on older designs) without telling customers.
No link given.


I read on a serious forum that RP-25 wheel sets do not work well on Roco turnouts.
http://www.drehscheibe-o...0710,5350710#msg-5350710
Yes, Roco use smaller flanges. Yes, RP-25 has smaller flanges. Yes, people complain that recent Roco AC wheel sets not always follow NEM 340.

RP-25 specifies the wheel contour (with 10 different codes):
http://nmra.org/sites/de.../pdf/RP-25%202009.07.pdf
Wheel contour is one thing. Wheel spacing is another.

Progress requires experimenting. Roco are experimenting with smaller flanges - they have done this for years.

BTW: Model 68173 was announced with low flanges in the new items brochure. In the product database they do not mention low flanges.
On June 13, 2014 a dealer released an announcement from Roco that they refrain from using low flanges with AC models in the future.
http://www.mostviertler-...bahnhof.at/info_memg.htm

So it seems Roco tried something new, failed, and returned to larger flanges six months ago.


Hello Tom,

There was 'no link given' because that thread on Stummis forum was moved into the 'Tagesthemen' folder and has been deleted in the meantime.
Roco's trial and error procedure is understandable, but it sounds just like Märklin, doesn't it? (e.g. Märklin's BR 117)
Lack of transparency is not only characteristic of Märklin, but also occurs with Roco sometimes ...
By the way, your story about Märklin's new China connection regarding the Mini-Club F8/F9 is quite convincing and a bit of an ominous sign for the future.

We shouldn't trust any of those companies completely, should we? I trust most (but not all) Märklin products that were still made in Germany up to 2004, but for products made after that date, I'm rather selective. Cool

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#17 Posted : 30 December 2014 07:16:36(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
There's a lot of dodgy information in previous posts in this thread.

As Tom has pointed out, Roco do not use RP25 wheels on their 3-rail locos. They fit their 3 rail locos with wheels with larger flanges that conform to the standard for 3 rail track.

Most derailments with non-Marklin locos is due to incompatible couplings. Watch out when you fit Marklin close couplers onto Roco locos because the coupler tops can foul the buffers, causing derailment. It's better to keep the Roco coupler which matches the Marklin Relex coupler. Another source of derailments is trying to run a loco on a radius which is sharper than recommended.

Roco wagons may derail on Marklin track because you are trying to run them with the original 2-rail wheels. Roco make the correct wheels for 3 rail track for most of their wagons. They are cheap, and some dealers will swap them for you for free.

The statement that most recent Marklin locos have 3 pole motors is not correct. Some do but not most. So do many of the recent Roco, Fleischmann and other maker's locos. The truth is that recent 3 pole motors can be good quality and smoother and quieter than older 5 pole motors.

If you want to know for sure whether other locos match Marklin for quality, buy one and try it out. My personal experience is that other maker's locos today tend to be more detailed than historic Marklin locos, but also more delicate because of this. The same is true for recent Marklin highly detailed locos.



Hello Ray,

I think the purpose of this thread was to give advice to a forum member about how to spend his money best.

....

Best regards, Mark


I thought that's what I was doing!

Many of the posts giving advice are often no more than the opinions of the poster. I was attempting to put some impartial information on record.

When I mention recent products I am writing about the last 5 or so years. I admit that the 2014 products do contain a higher percentage of 3-pole motors. I suspect that as new suppliers are sought that 5-pole motors will again be fitted in new locos, but only because many buyers are biased against 3 pole motors even when they are perfectly good.

As To RP 25, this is a very fine scale wheel standard not commonly used on european model railways. Most European manufacturers use NEM standards, one NEM standard defines wheels for 2 rail and another for 3 rail . RP 25 is often found on US models. If roco is using RP 25 for european models they are not following correct standards.



Hi Ray,

Here's another Stummi Forum thread in which people say that the AC versions of some recent Roco models are not NEM 340, as they should be, and may cause problems:
AC wheel sets
NEM 340

So I guess that my warning about Roco's 'fine wheels' was not "dodgy information" at all, but just a fact. It seems that Roco got the message and will introduce changes, but they have sold some AC versions with incompatible wheels that need to be replaced by NEM 340 AC ones.

As for the three-pole motors, I used the adverbial "nowadays", which clearly means "now as compared to the past" according to my Longman dictionary. In 2014 most Märklin steam engines really have those three-pole can motors, and the situation was the same last year. Five years ago, many Märklin steam engines had an SDS or a 'Glockenanker', but 'nowadays' cannot be understood to mean 'up to five years ago'.

If you like, you may say that my opinion of three-pole motors is biased. That's right, but I think nobody can really claim to be impartial. I won't pay high prices for Märklin models whose motors are less good than they used to be and inferior to the ones used by their competitors. The five-pole DC motors they have now started using are probably not much better as Märklin is unlikely to use the more expensive type with skewed armatures. I'm still a Märklin fan and I personally like the Siebers; I hope they can improve things.

Best regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 30 December 2014 08:41:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Mark, thanks for the links.
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Here's another Stummi Forum thread in which people say that the AC versions of some recent Roco models are not NEM 340, as they should be, and may cause problems
Please note that NEM 340 is just "Dokumentation". Märklin is the market leader, they make the wheels to their liking, NEM 340 documents what Märklin does. So IMHO there is no "as they should be" as NEM 340 is not even recommended practices.
NEM 310 for DC is a "Verbindliche Norm" (required standard). Completely different story.

Roco trains should work reliably on Märklin tracks if they sell "AC" versions. NEM 340 gives them some hints, nothing more.


Roco announced some models with smaller flanges about one year ago. Looks better, works worse. They moved back to larger flanges.
So yes, locos from a small time frame have small flanges that can cause problems. But Roco announced months ago that replacement wheels with larger flanges would be available.

Yes, people outside Germany/Austria buying such locos are well advised to make sure they get a loco with larger flanges - the seller can probably get them more easily than the buyer.

Roco make experiments that do not work out. Märklin make experiments that do not work out. Other companies also do it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#19 Posted : 30 December 2014 10:32:15(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Tom,

I can definitely agree with what you have just written here. Every company tries out things that don't work, but Roco seems to react faster to criticism than Märklin.

Two days ago, I bought the January issue of Modellbahn Illustrierte. What's interesting in there is that the bosses of the largest MRR manufacturers were asked to comment on this year in a short interview. Roco's sales figures for 2014 are stable, Piko has done better, especially in Germany, and Märklin's sales figures are down once again. Florian Sieber explained that this is due to the fact that Märklin has stopped the practice of overproduction and extra large discounts on unpopular items, which was practised before 2013 to bolster sales figures. That has been said before, but in my opinion the 2014 sales figures mean that Märklin is losing customers, and that Piko is gaining ground at the expense of M*.

I recently started collecting books about the history of Märklin, and what all the books reveal is that historically, Märklin hasn't made money with transparency. At various points in the history of the company, they took the market by surprise and won the day, but nowadays their lack of transparency is counterproductive. Every year some M* customers migrate to Piko, who offer good quality at affordable prices. Being more transparent would help Märklin now, I think.

The second thing that Märklin's history clearly reveals is that the quality problems that they are experiencing now are unprecedented. M* owes a large part of its success to the fact that in the past, M* products were superior to their competitors', and in the 1930s Märklin became the market leader because the Bing company went bust and had to stop producing metal toys. Today's main competitors, Roco and Piko, will probably not disappear, and their products are not inferior any longer.

Nevertheless M* has one key advantage now: its rich owners and their toy empire, where the sun never sets, and there we're back to the China story. Florian Sieber says in that mini-interview in the January issue of Modellbahn Illustrierte that sales of myWorld and StartUp have increased this year, which means that more Märklin products will be made in China again, as you've argued. Märklin will survive and make a comeback in toy shops, but it won't be the reliable German-made Märklin trains I remember from my childhood days ... That's life ... Cool

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 30 December 2014 10:43:12(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
There's a lot of dodgy information in previous posts in this thread.

As Tom has pointed out, Roco do not use RP25 wheels on their 3-rail locos. They fit their 3 rail locos with wheels with larger flanges that conform to the standard for 3 rail track.

Most derailments with non-Marklin locos is due to incompatible couplings. Watch out when you fit Marklin close couplers onto Roco locos because the coupler tops can foul the buffers, causing derailment. It's better to keep the Roco coupler which matches the Marklin Relex coupler. Another source of derailments is trying to run a loco on a radius which is sharper than recommended.

Roco wagons may derail on Marklin track because you are trying to run them with the original 2-rail wheels. Roco make the correct wheels for 3 rail track for most of their wagons. They are cheap, and some dealers will swap them for you for free.

The statement that most recent Marklin locos have 3 pole motors is not correct. Some do but not most. So do many of the recent Roco, Fleischmann and other maker's locos. The truth is that recent 3 pole motors can be good quality and smoother and quieter than older 5 pole motors.

If you want to know for sure whether other locos match Marklin for quality, buy one and try it out. My personal experience is that other maker's locos today tend to be more detailed than historic Marklin locos, but also more delicate because of this. The same is true for recent Marklin highly detailed locos.



Hello Ray,

I think the purpose of this thread was to give advice to a forum member about how to spend his money best.

....

Best regards, Mark


I thought that's what I was doing!

Many of the posts giving advice are often no more than the opinions of the poster. I was attempting to put some impartial information on record.

When I mention recent products I am writing about the last 5 or so years. I admit that the 2014 products do contain a higher percentage of 3-pole motors. I suspect that as new suppliers are sought that 5-pole motors will again be fitted in new locos, but only because many buyers are biased against 3 pole motors even when they are perfectly good.

As To RP 25, this is a very fine scale wheel standard not commonly used on european model railways. Most European manufacturers use NEM standards, one NEM standard defines wheels for 2 rail and another for 3 rail . RP 25 is often found on US models. If roco is using RP 25 for european models they are not following correct standards.



Hi Ray,

Here's another Stummi Forum thread in which people say that the AC versions of some recent Roco models are not NEM 340, as they should be, and may cause problems:
AC wheel sets
NEM 340

So I guess that my warning about Roco's 'fine wheels' was not "dodgy information" at all, but just a fact. It seems that Roco got the message and will introduce changes, but they have sold some AC versions with incompatible wheels that need to be replaced by NEM 340 AC ones.

As for the three-pole motors, I used the adverbial "nowadays", which clearly means "now as compared to the past" according to my Longman dictionary. In 2014 most Märklin steam engines really have those three-pole can motors, and the situation was the same last year. Five years ago, many Märklin steam engines had an SDS or a 'Glockenanker', but 'nowadays' cannot be understood to mean 'up to five years ago'.

If you like, you may say that my opinion of three-pole motors is biased. That's right, but I think nobody can really claim to be impartial. I won't pay high prices for Märklin models whose motors are less good than they used to be and inferior to the ones used by their competitors. The five-pole DC motors they have now started using are probably not much better as Märklin is unlikely to use the more expensive type with skewed armatures. I'm still a Märklin fan and I personally like the Siebers; I hope they can improve things.

Best regards, Mark


Hi Mark,

I don't want to overburden this thread with my opinions. I think I've taken too much of it already. My intention was to clarify some of the points that had been made which I believed were being posed as fact when I saw them as being opinions.

Thanks for posting those links to the Stummi forum. I regret I don't read enough German to understand it, but a quick scan does not show up the use of the phrase "RP25", just a discussion about the DC wheels vs AC wheels. Tom writes about smaller flanges, but also steers clear of the term "RP25". I would find it unlikely that a manufacturer introduce RP25 to the European market, but if this is fact I will bow to superior knowledge.

The discussion of the use of "Nowadays" or "recent" is surely dependent on the length of the individual's memory! For most of my memory Marklin has used 3 pole motors, for a very brief period they used C-Sine motors, and for the last two years (the bat of an eye for me) they have used compact 3 pole motors. Maybe I'm just showing my age! BigGrin

Anyway. I will say no more and apologise if the word "Dodgy" caused offence. Please read "unverified" instead.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 30 December 2014 15:00:40(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
This is what i know myself and did tested on my Tillig Elite tracks code 83:
I do have Märklins new wagons both passanger and freight with NEM Wheel sets which are now standard from Märklin and guess what!?
They works on my tracks and turnouts perfect!
So Märklins NEM 340 Wheels is not correct.
The newer models from Märklin do have smaller flanges now.
Same similar like Rocos.
Roco,Fleischmann and Liliput do works very well on the Märklins tracks.
Märklin for 3 rail and Trix for 2 rail do have same wheel flanges,but Trix have isolated wheels while Märklins are non-isolated.
TS use C tracks and it have code 90,so there is no problems by use Rocos locomotiv on the tracks.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 30 December 2014 18:15:26(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I hate to disagree with you again, Anders, but 3-rail wheels and 2-rail wheels should have a different geometry as well as being either insulated or not.

I have some new Liliput wagons I got for Christmas this year, and the wheels will derail on Marklin turnouts. This has also happened to me in the past with Piko and Roco wagons, and I have had to change the wheels to the 3-rail types they supply just for this purpose. You can sometimes get away with leaving the DC wheels in some wagons if the wheel base is short.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Goofy  
#23 Posted : 31 December 2014 11:01:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I hate to disagree with you again, Anders, but 3-rail wheels and 2-rail wheels should have a different geometry as well as being either insulated or not.

I have some new Liliput wagons I got for Christmas this year, and the wheels will derail on Marklin turnouts. This has also happened to me in the past with Piko and Roco wagons, and I have had to change the wheels to the 3-rail types they supply just for this purpose. You can sometimes get away with leaving the DC wheels in some wagons if the wheel base is short.


It´s difference between locomotives and wagons.
You can change wheels in the wagons,but not with the locomotives like Liliput or Roco whatever.
And Roco with DC do have same wheel flanges like for AC,but not same geometry.
So TS can buy Roco AC and use it for the C tracks.

P.S.
Here you can see two wheels from Märklin and Trix.
The left is Märklin and the right is Trix.



Goofy attached the following image(s):
DSC_0022.JPG
DSC_0023.JPG
DSC_0024.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 31 December 2014 11:55:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I hate to disagree with you again, Anders, but 3-rail wheels and 2-rail wheels should have a different geometry as well as being either insulated or not.
When you check the spareparts lists for Märklin's Hobby TRAXX and compare them with the Trix Hobby TRAXX, you will find that both use the same wheelsets.
Same wheel geometry and even same wheel spacing used for Märklin (three-rail) and Trix (two-rail). Yes, the Märklin Hobby TRAXX come with insulated wheelsets (plastic axles).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#25 Posted : 31 December 2014 12:08:07(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks guys, I've learned something new today!

I stand corrected on the Marklin/Trix wheels. I guess Marklin design their track and wheels to be compatible for both systems.

I still find issues with Liliput and Piko wagons unless the wheels have been swapped. Jouef and Lima seem much more compatible and give fewer running problems on C track with their DC wheels. Roco seems somewhere in between.

As to coaches, I have a few Hag coaches whose wheels axles were very fine, and I had to swap these for 3 rail wheel sets. I aslo swapped some Piko coaches that gave me problems, but others were OK. I have some Lima, some Rivarossi and some Oskar coaches that are running fine on their original wheels.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline foumaro  
#26 Posted : 31 December 2014 12:56:39(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
I do not have any rocopico items and i will not have in the future.Quality is more important from quantity for me.BigGrin
Offline RayF  
#27 Posted : 31 December 2014 14:13:55(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I do not have any rocopico items and i will not have in the future.Quality is more important from quantity for me.BigGrin


Hi Panayotis,

Live dangerously and buy yourself a Roco or Piko wagon. I guarantee you won't find a lot of difference in quality between these and Marklin wagons. BigGrin

With Locomotives there might be a bit more of a difference, but even so, you might be surprised.

By restricting yourself to Marklin you may lose out on a huge range of alternative models available from other manufacturers.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline foumaro  
#28 Posted : 31 December 2014 16:10:36(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I do not have any rocopico items and i will not have in the future.Quality is more important from quantity for me.BigGrin


Hi Panayotis,

Live dangerously and buy yourself a Roco or Piko wagon. I guarantee you won't find a lot of difference in quality between these and Marklin wagons. BigGrin

With Locomotives there might be a bit more of a difference, but even so, you might be surprised.

By restricting yourself to Marklin you may lose out on a huge range of alternative models available from other manufacturers.


Maybe a wagon is not a big deal,but buying a locomotive i think is a big risk.I will be more hardy in 2015 and buy my first not marklin item.Thank you very much for your suggestion.ThumpUp
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Offline Mark_1602  
#29 Posted : 31 December 2014 16:46:50(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi everybody,

I think that all MRR manufacturers should clearly state which norm or code their wheels are and which rails they are compatible with. Leaving buyers in the dark creates misunderstandings and disappointments as prices are high. Roco used some 'fine' wheels that were either RP25 or came close to it without giving customers any precise information. Now they've corrected their mistake, which is positive, but all they explain is that they will use wheels which are a little less 'fine' in future AC versions. This lack of transparency does not help the MRR industry in general, and that's the case for Märklin as well.

I'll stick to Märklin, but that's mostly due to nostalgic feelings, not to the quality of their current models, as well as to the fact that I don't want to spend even more money on model trains. BigGrin Other manufacturers also produce models that are really worth buying, but my 'Märklin only' policy simply saves me money. Cool

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline grnwtrs  
#30 Posted : 31 December 2014 21:15:31(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Yes, indeed. Not only to save money, but also to cut down on the cost of spare parts. That is if you
can find the spare parts. Laugh

,
Regards,
gene
Offline Goofy  
#31 Posted : 01 January 2015 10:20:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post


I'll stick to Märklin, but that's mostly due to nostalgic feelings, not to the quality of their current models, as well as to the fact that I don't want to spend even more money on model trains. BigGrin Other manufacturers also produce models that are really worth buying, but my 'Märklin only' policy simply saves me money. Cool

Best regards,
Mark


Why?
Roco do have ESU sound decoder,which are much better than Märklin´s mfx crap decoder.
Roco do also produce locomotives for 3 rail which works good.
The biggest problem from Märklin are mfx decoder and not possible to buy analog locomotives and put later with ESU sound decoder.
You don´t save money to buy Märklin´s locomotive.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline RayF  
#32 Posted : 01 January 2015 11:09:09(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Sticking with Marklin trains gives you the advantage that you know that, generally, everything will work well together. Mixing manufacturers sometimes leads to incompatibility in couplings, buffer heights, wheel standards etc.

Also if you stick with Marklin controllers, accessories etc you should also find no nasty surprises.

On the other hand, there is a wide world out there of different models, different controllers and decoders, and some prefer to have the choice.

I buy mostly Marklin because it is my preference, but I have a few models from other manufacturers too. Everyone makes their own choice and should not be criticised for their choices, because we are all individuals with different tastes and opinions.

What I don't really understand is why we have certain members on a Marklin users forum whose sole aim seems to be to try to put everyone off buying Marklin....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Goofy  
#33 Posted : 01 January 2015 13:04:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Sticking with Marklin trains gives you the advantage that you know that, generally, everything will work well together. Mixing manufacturers sometimes leads to incompatibility in couplings, buffer heights, wheel standards etc.

Also if you stick with Marklin controllers, accessories etc you should also find no nasty surprises.

On the other hand, there is a wide world out there of different models, different controllers and decoders, and some prefer to have the choice.

I buy mostly Marklin because it is my preference, but I have a few models from other manufacturers too. Everyone makes their own choice and should not be criticised for their choices, because we are all individuals with different tastes and opinions.

What I don't really understand is why we have certain members on a Marklin users forum whose sole aim seems to be to try to put everyone off buying Marklin....


We do have NMRA as rules by following NEM for the model railway shall works.
Märklin do it.
Roco do it.
Brawa do it.
Fleischmann do it.
ESU do it.
Trix do it.

I have no problem with the Brawas and Trix wagons.
They fits perfect in same height for the couplings,buffer and wheels standards.
Also with Fleischmann.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Mark_1602  
#34 Posted : 01 January 2015 14:39:51(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post


I'll stick to Märklin, but that's mostly due to nostalgic feelings, not to the quality of their current models, as well as to the fact that I don't want to spend even more money on model trains. BigGrin Other manufacturers also produce models that are really worth buying, but my 'Märklin only' policy simply saves me money. Cool

Best regards,
Mark


Why?
Roco do have ESU sound decoder,which are much better than Märklin´s mfx crap decoder.
Roco do also produce locomotives for 3 rail which works good.
The biggest problem from Märklin are mfx decoder and not possible to buy analog locomotives and put later with ESU sound decoder.
You don´t save money to buy Märklin´s locomotive.



Hi Anders,

To start with, Märklin's decoders are not rubbish in my opinion. I have a lot of digital locomotives, all from Märklin, but they all work, including the models produced after the insolvency. I agree that other MRR manufacturers may use better decoders, and I know that Roco is good quality in general.

When I saw your post, I decided to check how much I would have to pay for steam engines made by other manufacturers. Brawa's S 2/6 would cost me 526 euros at the German Märklin dealer where I am a regular customer. I could get a Märklin S 2/6 for 416 with my VIP customer status at that shop, so if I wanted an S 2/6, I'd buy Märklin and save about 100 euros on one locomotive. Märklin also has a good customer service and honours its warranty. Interestingly, my dealer has very few Roco items left. Five years ago, Roco models were all over his shop, but now that company seems to have some issues with official dealers. For Märklin models, I can get a discount of 20-25 per cent.

Märklin has some issues with quality control, but if one of the three locomotives I ordered in 2014 has a small defect, I'll send it back and get a new one. (They haven't been delivered yet.) Last year I had to do that three times, but they fixed the problems for free. Maybe I'll be lucky this time!

I already have a large Märklin collection, and I used to play with Märklin as a child so I don't need Roco or Brawa, no matter how good they are. I just like Märklin a lot, even if I'm a bit disappointed by the quality of some newer models or by the cheap DC motors. In practice I avoid the problematic models, so I'm fine.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#35 Posted : 01 January 2015 16:03:18(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post

Interestingly, my dealer has very few Roco items left. Five years ago, Roco models were all over his shop, but now that company seems to have some issues with official dealers. For Märklin models, I can get a discount of 20-25 per cent.



IIRC there are reports that Roco/Fleischmann told dealers they were not allowed to discount stock, and so many dealers have stopped buying large quantities of stock from them.

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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#36 Posted : 01 January 2015 16:14:25(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Sticking with Marklin trains gives you the advantage that you know that, generally, everything will work well together. Mixing manufacturers sometimes leads to incompatibility in couplings, buffer heights, wheel standards etc.

Also if you stick with Marklin controllers, accessories etc you should also find no nasty surprises.

On the other hand, there is a wide world out there of different models, different controllers and decoders, and some prefer to have the choice.

I buy mostly Marklin because it is my preference, but I have a few models from other manufacturers too. Everyone makes their own choice and should not be criticised for their choices, because we are all individuals with different tastes and opinions.

What I don't really understand is why we have certain members on a Marklin users forum whose sole aim seems to be to try to put everyone off buying Marklin....

Ray, I agree....If someone believes Marklin is rubbish, don't buy it! If they don't like Marklin products, what are they doing on a Marklin users forum??? ... I just don't get it.... ThumbDown
Joe

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Offline NS1200  
#37 Posted : 01 January 2015 17:39:16(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
On a somewhat more positive note (it is 2015,yeahhh) i do recall that the wheelsets used by Marklin are sometimes called Pizza cutters,for obvious reasons.
I like the expression,it is a title of honour,in the same way my colleagues are calling me (age 59) "The Old Man".
One thing is for sure,the Pizza cutters have brought Marklin a long way,it is one of the oldest modelrailway brands known,and still going strong.

I drive a tiny Ford KA II,guys driving other and bigger cars think it is rubbish.
Well,it never let me down sofar,and for me that is priority number one for a car.
It does not mean to say that i will be driving Ford forever.

Mild critism does not harm,it is good sometimes to look into a mirror for some selfreflection,and that goes for companies too.
If Marklin would never hear that they should do better they will keep on making the same mistakes.
This is what marketing is all about,listening to your clients and learn from your mistakes.
Nothing wrong with that.

I have just bought a Piko BR01 version DR DDR,and bidding on a Piko BR052 with condensation tender.
I know Piko is not Marklin,but i like them anyway for what they are.

In the new year,let us wait for the new items of Marklin with a loud beating heart,and let our comments be mildly critical,buy what you like to buy,and let other items as is.
Let it be a good Marklin year!

Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Goofy  
#38 Posted : 01 January 2015 19:14:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post


Hi Anders,

To start with, Märklin's decoders are not rubbish in my opinion. I have a lot of digital locomotives, all from Märklin, but they all work, including the models produced after the insolvency. I agree that other MRR manufacturers may use better decoders, and I know that Roco is good quality in general.

When I saw your post, I decided to check how much I would have to pay for steam engines made by other manufacturers. Brawa's S 2/6 would cost me 526 euros at the German Märklin dealer where I am a regular customer. I could get a Märklin S 2/6 for 416 with my VIP customer status at that shop, so if I wanted an S 2/6, I'd buy Märklin and save about 100 euros on one locomotive. Märklin also has a good customer service and honours its warranty. Interestingly, my dealer has very few Roco items left. Five years ago, Roco models were all over his shop, but now that company seems to have some issues with official dealers. For Märklin models, I can get a discount of 20-25 per cent.

Märklin has some issues with quality control, but if one of the three locomotives I ordered in 2014 has a small defect, I'll send it back and get a new one. (They haven't been delivered yet.) Last year I had to do that three times, but they fixed the problems for free. Maybe I'll be lucky this time!

I already have a large Märklin collection, and I used to play with Märklin as a child so I don't need Roco or Brawa, no matter how good they are. I just like Märklin a lot, even if I'm a bit disappointed by the quality of some newer models or by the cheap DC motors. In practice I avoid the problematic models, so I'm fine.

Best regards,
Mark


Well...i do and did had problems already with 3 difference Märklin/Trix locomotivs with mfx decoder and they do have some defaults.
The first was BR64 with mfx+.
After nine weeks waiting for repair,Märklin did sent me an new locomotive while the old still in Märklin company.
The second problem was diesel locomotive V100.10...it didn´t worked as it should and i was expecting to change to another same model,but there was also problems.
I did got money back.
Now the third problem is my Trix Bayern B VI with mfx decoder...it´s not working sometimes with the sounds.
I believe ESU is better than Märklin´s mfx decoder.
Yes...it´s difference in COSTs between Brawa,Roco,Märklin...etc,but it depends where they are producing.
Brawa do have more details on the locomotivs,but they do also have good service to replacement with details parts.
You can even order after details for yours locomotive from Brawa like Märklin via online shop.
So does with Roco.
Even shop store do offer cheaper prices of Brawas models.
They are not more expensive than Märklin do.
TS did asked if he wants(?) or shall avoid to buy Roco AC models.
I recommend TS to shop Roco AC models of today.
The older models is not recommend,but newer models does.
It´s up to TS choise by take an chance with an Roco model.
I did with Märklin´s diesel locomotive and it was crap!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline mattj70  
#39 Posted : 01 January 2015 19:29:58(UTC)
mattj70

United States   
Joined: 19/03/2010(UTC)
Posts: 460
Location: Hudson FL
Do you have to buy new? from a dealer? I have acquired many of my engines by just waiting and catching them on Ebay. Almost new or little run time, also you can reach out to many dealers and see who gives you the best price on a brand new engine. Shop around is the best policy. I haven't had the best luck with non Marklin engines myself, and will wait awhile before I try that game again. The Roco cars I have bought, and a few other brands don't seem to weight enough? or have poor through the switches causing derails. Good luck, I have scene some impressive videos of Roco engines on Youtube.
all the best,
Matt
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Offline Goofy  
#40 Posted : 01 January 2015 19:45:20(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Severals of the members here do use a lot of Rocos AC models.
You can also check with hundreds of videos via youtube and watching with Rocos AC models.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#41 Posted : 01 January 2015 20:15:53(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

You can also watch about 168.000 videos on Youtube, showing perfectly running Märklin locomotives:

https://www.youtube.com/...earch_query=m%C3%A4rklin

Even the 37002 BR211 or the V100.10, which is sold as 37003 have very good reviews on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/...query=M%C3%A4rklin+37002

https://www.youtube.com/...query=M%C3%A4rklin+37003

( The locomotive Goofy claimed to own, even if he mixed up the numbers, and of which he couldn't produce a picture. )

Per.

Cool





If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#42 Posted : 02 January 2015 03:50:51(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post



( The locomotive Goofy claimed to own, even if he mixed up the numbers, and of which he couldn't produce a picture. )

Per.

Cool







I didn´t mixed up the numbers.
I did really bought Märklin´s diesel 37002,but there was already defaults.
I was in danish shop store and we did tested locomotive,where i did bought.
Also tested other same models which there was defaults too.
As i did wrote before in another topic...diesel locomotive was design flaws.
There was no reason to show up with an picture,when i did decides to return default locomotive back.
I was suprised to see two more same locomotive do have defaults too.
TS did started an topic to find helps about to shop an Roco AC model,not to fight with troll jokes from an dane with sovereignty.
I recommend TS to buy an Roco model if you like.
They do work very well too and with ESU sound decoder you will not become an dissatisfied customer.
With Märklin´s diesel model,i was it.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#43 Posted : 02 January 2015 09:18:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
If they don't like Marklin products, what are they doing on a Marklin users forum??? ... I just don't get it.... ThumbDown
On the homepage you can read "A site intended to share the fun of Märklin and model railroads."
So IMHO one can participate on this forum even if s/he does not like everything that Märklin sells or sold.
And I assume that 99% of the members here will agree that not everything sold by Märklin is good quality.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline H0  
#44 Posted : 02 January 2015 09:32:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: akerstdi Go to Quoted Post
What is the general opinion on Roco steam locomotives?
I think I already mentioned that my general opinion is good.

Here's a thread on Stummi's forum comparing a Roco BR 50 and a Märklin BR 50:
http://stummiforum.de/vi...ic.php?f=33&t=119046
The thread is in German, but Google Chrome can translate it for you.

If you don't have Google Chrome, here's a link to an Online translation by Google:
https://translate.google...%3D119046&edit-text=


See especially the third photo on that thread: the Märklin loco on the left has the traditional running wheels (too small) and the traditional buffer beam (too high).
The Roco loco on the right has larger running wheels with long, fine spikes, the holes in the frame look much better IMHO and the wind deflectors also look good IMHO.


The author of that review will keep both locos.
There is no perfect model and I will also keep my Märklin steamers and my Roco steamers.
And given the choice between a loco with small wheels and short spikes and another one with larger wheels and longer spikes, I tend to prefer the loco that resembles the prototype closer.
Roco's former experiment with smaller flanges was not good for their reputation.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Mark_1602  
#45 Posted : 02 January 2015 09:57:10(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: mattj70 Go to Quoted Post
Do you have to buy new? from a dealer? I have acquired many of my engines by just waiting and catching them on Ebay. Almost new or little run time, also you can reach out to many dealers and see who gives you the best price on a brand new engine. Shop around is the best policy. I haven't had the best luck with non Marklin engines myself, and will wait awhile before I try that game again. The Roco cars I have bought, and a few other brands don't seem to weight enough? or have poor through the switches causing derails. Good luck, I have scene some impressive videos of Roco engines on Youtube.
all the best,
Matt


Hi Matt,

Buying second-hand can be a great experience. I've sold a lot of Märklin engines as well as cars to reduce the scope of my collection, but almost every item I sold made someone happy. Buyers loved getting stuff from my collection as those things were usually mint and in perfect working condition.
The only complaint I have ever had was about a missing plastic handrail on a Chinese-made Märklin box car. I hadn't noticed that when I put the cars on Ebay, so I refunded one third of the price, and that buyer was happy as well. I've also bought a lot of things second-hand.

Products with defects exist, but all MRR manufacturers are affected by this problem.

Best regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#46 Posted : 03 January 2015 07:54:43(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
If they don't like Marklin products, what are they doing on a Marklin users forum??? ... I just don't get it.... ThumbDown
On the homepage you can read "A site intended to share the fun of Märklin and model railroads."
So IMHO one can participate on this forum even if s/he does not like everything that Märklin sells or sold.
And I assume that 99% of the members here will agree that not everything sold by Märklin is good quality.


Hi Tom,

Please start 'sharing the fun of Märklin' because that's not what you have been doing on this forum. I agree with you that Märklin does not always deliver good quality and I think that you have made some valid and intriguing points, such as your recent story about Märklin's renewed interest in China.

Most of your criticism of the Märklin company is justified and you usually get the facts right, but not always:

1) Märklin fans are not 'naive', as you often label them. Here's one example from this website: Warping US box cars thread
I have written a lot of critical posts here and don't trust every Märklin product, so I'm not a 'naive Märklin lover'. I've enjoyed Märklin since my childhood, and I don't need to provide a hundred links to justify that. Cool

2) You usually ignore the well-documented fact that the DC manufacturers' product can be just as problematic as Märklin's. Here are some examples of quality problems associated with Brawa and ESU as posted on Stummis Forum:
Qualität von Brawa Modellen
Qualitätsprobleme Abteilwagen Brawa
Qualität Brawa BR 06
Fragwürdige ESU Qualität

I could find more, but I don't want to spoil other people's fun. In any case, Märklin is not the only guilty party in the MRR industry, and its products are as good as other manufacturers'. We all have our individual preferences and want to have fun with the products that we have chosen to buy. Criticism is useful because it forces the manufacturers to improve their products, but it shouldn't be a systematic attempt to show Märklin fans that they like the 'wrong' brand or are 'naive'.

Best regards, Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline RayF  
#47 Posted : 03 January 2015 09:31:21(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I often get the feeling that some of those who post here think that Marklin has some kind of "master plan" to defraude their customers, or somehow fool them into buying rubbish.

I'm sure that Marklin has a management team who try to produce the products we all want. As with all companies, they sometimes get a few things wrong, but a lot of what has been criticised recently are merely attempts by them to produce models that appeal to a majority of their fans while at the same time trying to innovate and excell. As an example, the much criticised "too high" buffers is a continuation of a policy of backwards compatibility with their older products, as is their perseverence with the Marklin digital system.

I often find myself very disappointed by the constant "Marklin bashing", to the point that I cringe every time someone writes about 3-pole motors. Most of these posters are in blyth ignorance that many manufacturers actually use 3 pole motors in their current models, or that Marklin itself has made all it's models with 3 pole motors throughout much of its history.

Please, by all means point out a problem with your models when it comes to light, but do so in a fair and balanced way.

I'll say no more on the subject.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Goofy  
#48 Posted : 03 January 2015 10:45:59(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
What is critical?
TS did start topic about an Roco AC model and wanted information if loco model do work fine on the Märklin´s tracks and turnouts.
Yes it does.
Just buy this Roco model and enjoy!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#49 Posted : 03 January 2015 10:57:40(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post


Märklin is not the only guilty party in the MRR industry, and its products are as good as other manufacturers'. We all have our individual preferences and want to have fun with the products that we have chosen to buy. Criticism is useful because it forces the manufacturers to improve their products, but it shouldn't be a systematic attempt to show Märklin fans that they like the 'wrong' brand or are 'naive'.

Best regards, Mark


As Märklin did verified byself,we must become better with the quality and technology,which proffs Märklin is not always good as usual before.
Criticals comments present when something is wrong about train models.
I will do the same way about Märklin´s tracks,specially frogs in theirs turnouts.
It do often not fits correctly with the geometry with competitiors train models.
If Märklin did just correct the errors with trimming on the turnouts,i would been satisfaction.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#50 Posted : 03 January 2015 14:19:27(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
If they don't like Marklin products, what are they doing on a Marklin users forum??? ... I just don't get it.... ThumbDown
On the homepage you can read "A site intended to share the fun of Märklin and model railroads."
So IMHO one can participate on this forum even if s/he does not like everything that Märklin sells or sold.
And I assume that 99% of the members here will agree that not everything sold by Märklin is good quality.


Hi Tom,

Please start 'sharing the fun of Märklin' because that's not what you have been doing on this forum. I agree with you that Märklin does not always deliver good quality and I think that you have made some valid and intriguing points, such as your recent story about Märklin's renewed interest in China.

Most of your criticism of the Märklin company is justified and you usually get the facts right, but not always:
...


Actually Tom (HO) was replying to Joe Meiring who appears to be making a comment on what Goofy was saying. Tom was just pointing out this forum is wider in its subject than just Marklin.

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H0
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