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Offline Purellum  
#51 Posted : 24 October 2014 13:31:21(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

@Moritz: Did the motors you mention die because of wrong / too much lubrication, or "bad and cheap" motors?

To me, a DC-motor-type that can run for more than 200 hours in a simple test can't be that bad.

This doesn't guarantee that ALL motors in the specific batch are just as good.

But anyway, since we now have an easy way to determine if the motors are good or bad, it must be easy to decide which models to buy:

If the paint on the model have scratches, the motor is bad, and if the paint have no scratches, the motor is good. Blink

I could never have figured that out alone! Thank you MaerklinClassics ThumpUp

I'm sorry; but I don't understand Tom's comment about the load regulation in new decoders being "strong fertilizer".

Per.

Cool





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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#52 Posted : 24 October 2014 13:32:31(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I beg to disagree. There is nothing that cannot be discussed!

I agree, we can discuss everything, but there will be no new result and to discuss physical constraints makes not much sense. But well, we can discuss about it...

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

In this case, you cannot say that a 3 pole motor is always less good than a 5 pole motor. 3 pole motors produce more torque than 5 pole motors for the same overall size. They also run at higher speeds.


Sorry, but both is not true! It is told by people who will not accept, that the 3-pole Märklin motor is less good than a 5 pole.

E.g. there are is a Canon Precision EN22 and DN22.
The DN22 M-Speed (3-Pole) has the same size like the EN22 (5-pole) version. But the DN22 has less power (1,3W instead of 1,4W), a higher current consumption (190mA instead of 180mA), a higher idle current (35mA instead of 30mA) and a lower nominal speed (5200 instead of 5400U/min). The torque of both drives is the same! See https://www.usa.canon.co...ors/DC_Micro_Catalog.pdf

So, the 5-pole EN22 beats the DN22 M-Speed in all specifications! Only the price of the 5-pole is higher.

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
It is also true that a badly made 5 pole motor will be worse than a well made 3 pole motor.

Shure, this isn't a surprise.

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Additionally, in a digitally controlled system, the performance of the digital decoder and motor driver have to be taken into account.


A good digital decoder can alleviate physical and mechanical insufficiency, but the same decoder with a better 5-pole motor will perform better. And don't forget, there are still several people using analog DC and AC model railways.
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Offline RayF  
#53 Posted : 24 October 2014 13:53:24(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
In the examples you quote there is a clear advantage. other than price, for the 5 pole, but this is not always the case.

The number of poles is just one factor in the performance of a motor, and the myth that 5 is always better than 3 is one that has permeated the hobby for years.

Having said that, I have no problem with 5 pole motors, but I also have no problem with 3 pole motors. I just think we need to keep an open mind and not criticise change for the sake of it.

In conclusion, because I don't want the 3 vs 5 argument to carry on forever, we should all step back and just accept that not everyone has the same opinion, and also that sometimes the manufacturers have more facts in their possession than we do.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Purellum  
#54 Posted : 24 October 2014 13:58:38(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
Sorry, but both is not true! It is told by people who will not accept, that the 3-pole Märklin motor is less good than a 5 pole.

E.g. there are is a Canon Precision EN22 and DN22.
The DN22 M-Speed (3-Pole) has the same size like the EN22 (5-pole) version. But the DN22 has less power (1,3W instead of 1,4W), a higher current consumption (190mA instead of 180mA), a higher idle current (35mA instead of 30mA) and a lower nominal speed (5200 instead of 5400U/min). The torque of both drives is the same! See https://www.usa.canon.co...ors/DC_Micro_Catalog.pdf

So, the 5-pole EN22 beats the DN22 M-Speed in all specifications! Only the price of the 5-pole is higher.


Please take a look at e.g. the EN35 series compared to the DN35 series.

I those specifications, the 5-pole motor has a higher current consumption and a higher idle current than the 3-pole motor,
so from my point of view, you have just found one specific motor that suits your argument best.

You can always find specific motor specifications to "prove" your statements; but you can't change the laws of physics.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#55 Posted : 24 October 2014 14:16:36(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Please take a look at e.g. the EN35 series compared to the DN35 series.


Thanks, good example, the DN35M is a 3-pole motor, the EN35M is a 7-pole motor. But the size is the same! And the Torque is the same! But the electrical values only diverge by 1% up to 3%.

How is this possible? A 7-pole motor with the same size has the same power, torque, speed and current consumption like a 3-pole motor.

As I understood, Mr. Märklin told us in Märklin TV, that a 5-pole motor wouldn't fit into a loco where a 3-pole motor fits.

Why I choosed the EN22? Because this motor is used e.g. from L.S. Models and from A.C.M.E. for H0 model trains!

Edited by user 24 October 2014 20:25:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline H0  
#56 Posted : 24 October 2014 14:24:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
I'm sorry; but I don't understand Tom's comment about the load regulation in new decoders being "strong fertilizer".
"It promoteth growth, and it is very powerful." Fertilizer from male bovines or such. Cool
Maybe this link will help:
http://encyclopedia2.the...nary.com/SNAFU+principle
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Purellum  
#57 Posted : 24 October 2014 14:35:07(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Sorry Moritz, I didn't read the entire sheet of specifications, so I jumped to the conclusion that the EN / DN names meant the same for all sizes.

I do however believe that I can find examples giving the opposite results, I just can't spend the rest o today doing this.

@Tom; I know what fertilizer is; but didn't get your joke until now. BigGrin

Per.

Cool
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I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#58 Posted : 24 October 2014 14:47:08(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
I do however believe that I can find examples giving the opposite results,

Hello Per,
Oh yes of course. I'm sure, that there are examples of DC motors, which show the opposite result.

But: What we can see at the Canon Precision examples is, that a 3-pole motor isn't always smaller, more power full, less current consuming and faster than a 5-pole or even a 7-pole motor.

Nothing more I wanted to show.

But, what You can read in all scientific publications: A DC motor with a higher number of slots (poles) will always have a lower cogging torque!

A high cogging torque, and this is a fact, too, is responsible for bad driving performance and produces noise. A high cogging torque is also a bad influence for digital motor regulation. And a high cogging torque has negative influence into a smooth driving, especially slow drive performance.
Offline Purellum  
#59 Posted : 24 October 2014 15:04:04(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
But: What we can see at the Canon Precision examples is, that a 3-pole motor is always smaller, more power full, less current consuming and faster than a 5-pole or even a 7-pole motor.


Now you lost me Confused Don't you mean it to be opposite?

AFAIK, the cogging torque problem is being ( partly ) solved by the adding a flywheel, something that is quite new to Marklin;
but has been used by e.g. Roco for some time now.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

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In case this is not legally possible:
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#60 Posted : 24 October 2014 15:19:30(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Quote:
But: What we can see at the Canon Precision examples is, that a 3-pole motor is always smaller, more power full, less current consuming and faster than a 5-pole or even a 7-pole motor.


Now you lost me Confused Don't you mean it to be opposite?

Thanks Per, I forgot the "n't"

Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool
AFAIK, the cogging torque problem is being ( partly ) solved by the adding a flywheel, something that is quite new to Marklin;
but has been used by e.g. Roco for some time now.Cool


A flywheel can help to reduce the cogging torque problem, when the loco is running and it is helpful to avoid an abrupt stop of the loco, when the power is switched off.

But a flywheel has only low influence for the start, because the cogging torque prevents the motor from rotating at low voltage. And a flywheel needs much space, especially a big diameter for high efficency. But in the steam boil of a loco You don't have much space for a flywheel with a big diameter.

Therefore, a 3-pole motor is a quite bad solution for mounting into a steam boil. AYou need a motor with low cogging torque, e.g. scewed 5-pole, bell shaped armature or brushless motor.
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Offline mjrallare  
#61 Posted : 24 October 2014 19:01:53(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
This is of course a neverending story and we will never agree. BigGrin

Each of us has to decide for himself what is acceptable and what is not. I used to buy 15 locos per year, now I'm down to 2 or 3. Crying

Why? Well I've had my share of scratches and missing parts and I now await new locos with anxiety instead of excitment. Yes there's the guarantee, but I don't find it very amusing to return every fourth or fifth loco to Germany. I've also had locos damaged during freight, but that disappeared when I started buying from Lokshop.

I'm very worried about these cheap motors and I've posted those worries before. I don't have the opportunity to run my locos much and I fear what might happen when I get my dream-layout ready in the future, and will have all my locos running for hours on end.
I have high expectations on Märklin (still), and those expectations are confirmed by Märklin marketing. They never talk about toys, instead they talk about high-tech and high quality!
It said in an article in Märklin Magazin that you can't make a good low-cost motor. So what to think when the motors in my three Dm3s cost 15€ each?
Märklin could lessen my worries by writing about their new motors in the Märklin Magazin. Telling us there's nothing to worry about. But they don't... It's great that people on forums try to carry out tests, but I want them directly from Märklin. Take a hundred 3-poles straight from the production and make an endurance test in front of web cameras. Do that and I will (once more) become a believer.

I don't find many things in life that have the unusual combination of high quality and low price. And until Märklin proves me otherwise, I'll continue to be sceptical about their new cheap motors no matter how many poles they have.

/Torbjörn
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Offline Marius in Africa  
#62 Posted : 24 October 2014 20:05:35(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 419
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
As stated elsewhere in this post we are all entitled to our own opinions, views and we will probably never reach consensus. That is democracy at its best, with that i agree 100%.

My opinion: I will not spend my premium money for a three pole motor, it is as simple as that. Thus during 2014 I chose to order NOTHING form the Marklin brand!

I did order products from Brawa and ESU because that is how I choose to spend my premium money.

Regards
Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#63 Posted : 24 October 2014 21:54:11(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool



But anyway, since we now have an easy way to determine if the motors are good or bad, it must be easy to decide which models to buy:

If the paint on the model have scratches, the motor is bad, and if the paint have no scratches, the motor is good. Blink

I could never have figured that out alone! Thank you MaerklinClassics ThumpUp

I'm sorry; but I don't understand Tom's comment about the load regulation in new decoders being "strong fertilizer".

Per.

Cool


Hello Per,

I'm not sure if you've read all of my post because I have not made any connection between the motors and the paint. I wrote about about customer satisfaction in general as a reaction to the previous post and mentioned my warranty cases, which had nothing to do with motors. Two of the locomotives I sent back to Göppingen were Nohabs, so they had a Märklin motor by the way. The only claim I have made about three-pole motors is that the ones in my Dm3 do not seem to be so bad.

But somehow most of the problems that Märklin users discuss in forums seem to be connected to the factory in Györ and/or to a certain Mr B., who used to be the boss there:
- The over-oiled BR 94 were probably assembled in Hungary, where standards were not very high in 2013, as the pictures in the link I provided show.
- Mr B. used to be the boss at the factory in Györ, and he was the one who defended the three-pole motors on Märklin TV last year.
- The three warranty cases I had last year were probably due to poor handling at the factory in Györ. Most of the stuff that used to be made in China is now made in Györ, but the quality of the products does not seem to have improved as a result.
- Only about 50 new workers have been hired in Hungary as a result of the latest expansion of the factory. Is the focus there on quantity rather than on quality??

I thought it was worth mentioning the factory in Györ, which does not seem to deliver the quality that we were used to in the past. In the latest pictures from Györ taken this year and posted on Märklin's website, the workers wear gloves, at least on their right hands, so that's an improvement. I hope they've changed more than this since last year. BigGrin

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Yumgui  
#64 Posted : 24 October 2014 22:19:02(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,660
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Marius in Africa Go to Quoted Post
As stated elsewhere in this post we are all entitled to our own opinions, views and we will probably never reach consensus. That is democracy at its best, with that i agree 100%.
My opinion: I will not spend my premium money for a three pole motor, it is as simple as that. Thus during 2014 I chose to order NOTHING form the Marklin brand!
I did order products from Brawa and ESU because that is how I choose to spend my premium money.
Regards

Because I primarily like to collect old toys and thereby enjoy their history, I stopped buying any Märklin product manufactured after 1988 if only because I never really got hooked on the "Profi" collector/exhibit thingy, I can agree with that ... ThumpUp To each his own ... 100%.

Now, for a real dumb*ss question; why are the pole numbers always odd ?
I mean, why are there no 4 pole, or 6, or 8 pole motors ? No such thing as a dumb question ? Not so sure ;P

I assume it's because electrical flow needs asymmetry in order not to freeze up, equal out ... this is where my electronics knowledge just flies out the window, and just hoping the question may help others too, as well as lighten up the debate a bit ;)

I'm depending on all you wonderful hard core electronic experts to enlighten my feeble mind here, and in layman's terms please, where's the beef please ?

Thx,

Y (blowing a raspberry)
If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
Working on: https://studiogang.com/projects/all
My heavy train station renovation: https://youtu.be/QQlyNiq416A
Inspired by: http://www.nakedmarklin.com/... Am not alone in this universe, phew.
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Offline Purellum  
#65 Posted : 24 October 2014 22:20:52(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Sorry Mark, I were just making fun Woot

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#66 Posted : 24 October 2014 22:42:15(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Yumgui Go to Quoted Post
Now, for a real dumb*ss question; why are the pole numbers always odd ?
I mean, why are there no 4 pole, or 6, or 8 pole motors ? No such thing as a dumb question ? Not so sure ;P

Yes, it is because of the direction of rotation. With an odd number of poles, the direction of rotation is clear defined. With an even number it isn't. There are electronical solutions to solve this problem, but it isn't so easy like to use odd number of poles, only.

Therefore, You will find 3/5/7/9-pole motors but not 2/4/6/8-pole, at least not for standard DC motors.

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Offline Yumgui  
#67 Posted : 24 October 2014 22:52:19(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,660
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
There are electronical solutions to solve this problem, but it isn't so easy like to use odd number of poles, only.

Thanks for your lights Moritz !

I'd be very interested by these solutions ... but no rush ;)

Y ThumpUp
If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
Working on: https://studiogang.com/projects/all
My heavy train station renovation: https://youtu.be/QQlyNiq416A
Inspired by: http://www.nakedmarklin.com/... Am not alone in this universe, phew.
Offline Mark_1602  
#68 Posted : 25 October 2014 07:50:03(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Sorry Mark, I were just making fun Woot

Per.

Cool


Hi Per,

No problem if you were only joking. BigGrin Anyway, Märklin is a mysterious company. Cool It's like a detective story, but even Sherlock Holmes couldn't solve it. Roco's profit margin is about four per cent, but Märklin's was close to ten per cent between 2009 and 2012 (thanks to inexpensive motors and other cost-cutting measures). Now that it's a family business again, the EBIT is kept secret, as Florian Sieber announced in an interview this summer. He added that revenue was stable despite lower sales. That's cool, isn't it? Make a healthy profit while annual turnover is falling. Märklin will survive, so we needn't worry too much about their future. Cool Cool

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline H0  
#69 Posted : 25 October 2014 08:47:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: MaerklinClassics Go to Quoted Post
That's cool, isn't it? Make a healthy profit while annual turnover is falling. Märklin will survive, so we needn't worry too much about their future.
IMHO they ruin the reputation of the brand. Downgraded products at high prices will keep the profit high for a while. But I'm afraid this won't work in the long run.
Until 2019 they cannot fire workers at Göppingen. They can hire new workers any time when they need them - and this would be a good sign.

The Siebers say they want to keep Märklin for a very long time. I hope they mean what they say and also say what they mean.
But I also see that many MRR collectors are disappointed by "New Märklin" (working title for the post-insolvency company) and have drastically reduced their Märklin budgets. By regaining trust Märklin could regain those budgets.

In 2007 Märklin got an award for the best European Turnaround of the year. Märklin had been bought by Kingsbridge and Alix had made Märklin profitable again.
https://www.marklin-user...ound-Preis.aspx#post8676

About 15 months later the unsinkable Titanic "profitable" Märklin hit the iceberg and filed for insolvency.

Let's hope the development is sustainable this time.
They often talk about potential savings with production costs. I don't hear them talking about improving (restoring) quality.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#70 Posted : 25 October 2014 13:02:38(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: MaerklinClassics Go to Quoted Post
That's cool, isn't it? Make a healthy profit while annual turnover is falling. Märklin will survive, so we needn't worry too much about their future.
IMHO they ruin the reputation of the brand. Downgraded products at high prices will keep the profit high for a while. But I'm afraid this won't work in the long run.
Until 2019 they cannot fire workers at Göppingen. They can hire new workers any time when they need them - and this would be a good sign.


Hi everyone!

I agree that at least some of their new products are bad for their image. There was obviously some irony in my remark, but they will keep going somehow. I've also reduced my 'New Märklin' budget, but I won't buy the DC manufacturers' products either. I mostly buy vintage Märklin now.

Historically, they haven't made money with excellent motors, and they've used some cheap motors since the late 1950s at least. The small locomotives that were included in starter sets for children had a SFCM that didn't perform well at all, whereas the larger and more expensive ones had the famous LFCM (Allstrommotor). Märklin products were really top quality in the 50s and 60s, but they were a bit too expensive. So the company decided to sell more by making their products cheaper. The paint coat applied to locomotives was already thinner in the 1970s, and in the middle of that decade the DCM was introduced. It wasn't as good as the LFCM, but it helped Märklin to sell more products at lower prices. The excellent LFCM was phased out gradually.

In the late 1980s, the first five-pole motors as well as Faulhaber motors appeared, but they made locomotives more expensive, so Märklin made cheaper Delta models with three-pole DCMs. The company started losing money shortly after the turn of the millennium, when they had introduced the expensive Sine motor. According to Koll's 2010 edition of his catalogue, Märklin lost money in 2003. At that moment the Delta models were discontinued, so the vast majority of locomotives had a more expensive motor, resulting in higher prices.

After that, it was very hard for Märklin to make a profit, so a large part of the production was transferred to China in an effort to cut costs. It's probably not a coincidence that most Märklin locomotives which were made in China had excellent and expensive motors. The move to China led to serious problems, and Märklin ended up being insolvent. Mr Pluta must have figured out that inexpensive motors were the only way out. He knew that this had worked very well in the 1970s and 1980s, when Märklin had been highly successful. In addition, most Märklin fans like the company because of their childhood memories, not because of the new products, so Mr Pluta must have thought that cheap motors wouldn't bother customers that much. That was wrong, but he saved the company somehow ... The historical perspective tells us that inexpensive motors have paid off for Märklin, even long-term.
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#71 Posted : 25 October 2014 13:40:12(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Well, there's lots of words in this thread, probably 95% of it is speculation, reading between the lines, and probably a good bit of it is made up as we go along!

But it sure makes a good story!

Just got the kettle on for a cup of coffee, and looking for the choccie biscuit tin, this looks like it's going to be a long one. OhMyGod

I'm reminded of the story of the little boy who cried wolf, and......

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Offline Mark_1602  
#72 Posted : 25 October 2014 16:04:08(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi David,

Have you ever read a Shakespeare biography? That's really 95 per cent speculation, as not even his date of birth is certain, but the best biographers make the Bard come alive and get as close to the truth as you possibly can 400 years later. Märklin doesn't want to give us a lot of information, but it still seeps through somehow, and if you put all the little pieces together, you get quite a realistic picture. Wink

It's sad of course that some people now buy Märklin locomotives to disassemble them and dissect the DC motors to find out if they have skewed armatures or not. I wouldn't do that, but based on the facts we have, I would guess that the five-pole motors in the new Nohabs are not the most expensive type. In any case, some people on Stummis forum will start a thread about it, so I'll see if I'm right or wrong. I've ordered the NSB Nohab, and if I like it, I'll order more, no matter what Stummis forum says.

Maybe that's Märklin biggest mistake: by withholding relevant information, they allow the Märklin critics to take over and publish negative facts about their products. Most people read the information that's available, and unfortunately that's often Märklin-bashing. The company's bad information policy has backfired and damaged sales figures, so how long will it take until the catalogue tells customers which motors are used?? In the past you just had to check the spare parts list at the back to find out.

Anyway, enjoy your coffee while this thread lasts. BigGrin
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Purellum  
#73 Posted : 25 October 2014 16:26:10(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Mark, you tell us that you find the older motor types like LFCM much better than the never motors.

Have you noticed any difference on the locomotive models since Märklin stopped using the older motors?

Hint: Look in the drivers cabin of the locomotive. Wink

Per.

Cool
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Offline mjrallare  
#74 Posted : 25 October 2014 19:58:53(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
If there's a lack of facts, there's speculation... There's a lot of Formula one friends on this forum. We all know about the silly season. When we know were the drivers for next year will end up, speculation stops. We have the facts.

In a way the sky is falling. MRR is at a crossroad. Cheap products are probably needed to give the customers of tomorrow a first affordable "taste" of the hobby. But do we, the middle-aged customers of today, want cheap "toyish" products? I only know my own answer for certain, and that is a no.

The market will continue to shrink in the coming years and costs have to be reduced even more than today. Closing ones eyes and hoping it will go away won't help. By using cheaper components, like motors, in their products I think Märklin will just make things worse. The best solution, IMHO, is to cut the middleman. Save the costs in distribution and not in the products. The shrinking MRR-market can't feed as many as it does today. As sad as it might be, the brick-and-mortar shops have to go.

I like photography. I have bought my photo-gear online since 1992. Also very expensive stuff. Everything in unopen packages. No dust or fingerprints. Look at B&H and Aldorama. There are plenty of serious online dealers even in a small country like Sweden. Cameras are often expensive and complicated, but there's no problem buying them online. I have no problem with buying online from Lokshop and other serious dealers when it comes to MRR either.
Many shops in the MRR-business are struggling today and the money that goes into rents and wages could be used to improve profitability for the producers, online sellers and to give us customers good quality at acceptable prices.

The MRR-hobby just isn't big enough anymore to be able to carry the costs of a distribution chain made up of traditional shops.

/Torbjörn
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Offline Mark_1602  
#75 Posted : 25 October 2014 20:40:57(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Mark, you tell us that you find the older motor types like LFCM much better than the never motors.

Have you noticed any difference on the locomotive models since Märklin stopped using the older motors?

Hint: Look in the drivers cabin of the locomotive. Wink

Per.

Cool


Hi Per,

You don't say which newer motors you mean. I have said that the LFCM was much better than the smaller SFCM or the three-pole DMC used between the mid-seventies and the turn of the millennium, when the DELTA models were phased out.
I know that a Faulhaber motor, a five-pole DC motor with skewed armatures, or a Softdrive-Sine motor all perform better than an old LFCM, but none of those newer motors would last for as many hours as a LFCM. The upgraded five-pole DCM motor that is still used in some models now wouldn't last as long as an old LFCM either because it is worn out faster if it is controlled by a modern digital decoder (I mean not a c80 or DELTA).
For longevity, the LFCM probably tops them all as long as it is used without a decoder.

I guess you're referring to the fact that modern motors are smaller, so steam locomotives look more like the prototype. True, an old 3045 is not like the prototype at all, and the motor uses most of the space in the driver's cabin, but you can sell it for over 1,200 euros on Ebay if it's really mint. In comparison, the new 37818 is certainly more elegant, but try to sell it again 5 years from now, and you'll get about 200 euros. By the way, I have a Danish friend who knows a lot about railways, and he says that even in the newer 'N' series locomotives (37831/37846), Märklin got one or two details wrong.

I see it mainly from a collector's point of view. Nearly all models with a high collector's value that has remained stable over time have an old LFCM (Allstrommotor), though there are of course exceptions. I used to collect newer models, but now I collect vintage Märklin, and the new models I still buy are meant to be used on a future layout. In that respect, the new Nohabs seem interesting.

Which motors do you prefer? Cool
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Webmaster  
#76 Posted : 25 October 2014 20:56:02(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
I myself prefer the motors that run.... And so far all Märklin motors I've had have managed to propel the loco/train as expected - except one...
It was a 3-pole SFCM motor in a 3000 in 1966, never ran properly - just heated up a lot and stuttered a lot also after servicing/oiling...

I suppose it is out of scope regarding the "quality" discussions of today... BigGrin
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Purellum  
#77 Posted : 25 October 2014 21:29:58(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Mark, I don't buy models as an investment, which means I see things a lot different than you.

I do however believe that you're arguments have nothing to do with the new motors.

To me it seems like you're trying to say, that if Märklin made "not very prototypical" models, with large
LFCM-motors in the drivers cabin of the steam locomotives, like they did 50 - 30 years ago, then the value
of those models would increase in the next 47 years, like the value of the 3045 has increased since 1967.

More or less every toy sold in 1967 will today sell at a much higher price than in 1967, if in mint condition,
no matter which motor ( if any ) was build in.

Among many strange things I collect are British motorbikes; any mint and originally kept bike will have increased
in value since 19-fifthies to sixties, and I don't think anybody has ever collected British bikes because of motor quality. Crying

Unfortunately I can't tell you what to buy, to have it increase as much the next 47 years, as a 3045 have done
in the last 47 years. I think the best bet will be to hold on to the 3045; but that has nothing to do with motor type.

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Mark_1602  
#78 Posted : 25 October 2014 22:57:35(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Mark, I don't buy models as an investment, which means I see things a lot different than you.

I do however believe that you're arguments have nothing to do with the new motors.

To me it seems like you're trying to say, that if Märklin made "not very prototypical" models, with large
LFCM-motors in the drivers cabin of the steam locomotives, like they did 50 - 30 years ago, then the value
of those models would increase in the next 47 years, like the value of the 3045 has increased since 1967.

More or less every toy sold in 1967 will today sell at a much higher price than in 1967, if in mint condition,
no matter which motor ( if any ) was build in.

Among many strange things I collect are British motorbikes; any mint and originally kept bike will have increased
in value since 19-fifthies to sixties, and I don't think anybody has ever collected British bikes because of motor quality. Crying

Unfortunately I can't tell you what to buy, to have it increase as much the next 47 years, as a 3045 have done
in the last 47 years. I think the best bet will be to hold on to the 3045; but that has nothing to do with motor type.

Per.

Cool



Hi Per,

I wasn't trying to say what you write here; you see things in my posts which aren't there. I don't buy models as an investment at all because I know I'll never get a return on it, but the value of an old collector's model that I buy now will remain relatively stable over time. If I buy an expensive new model now, I'll probably lose over 50 per cent in case I sell it again 5 or 10 years later. That's why I buy medium-priced models at the moment; that way I burn less money, and I can always use them on a layout later.
By the way, not a single item that Märklin or any other MRR company makes now will increase its value in future. Some old models in mint condition have a collector's value; they're rare and cannot be reproduced because the old production techniques do not exist any longer. Replicas are not the same as originals, though they might be interesting. I like my 30301, but it will never become a collector's item.

What I said about collector's models has nothing to do with the new motors, but you specifically asked me to compare old and motors. I just made a point about the link between Märklin's profit margin and the motors they have used. Historically, they have made more money with cheaper motors, and that's a fact. That's why we got the cheap three-pole DC motors.

I haven't said that the 3045 is valuable because of the motor. It's valuable despite the lack of detail and other shortcomings. The new models might look and run much better, but their market value can only go down in future. That's not a problem if they are really used on a layout, but many locomotives that are bought now will be sold again in future. Ebay is full of MRR stuff from the late 70s, 80s, 90s, or 2000s, which proves that point.

Edited by user 27 October 2014 19:32:17(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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