Hi there,
Ive just joined so expect this subject has been discussed before, so please bear with me , I have just bought my dream Marklin models ST800 & DL 800 both need boxes + 3025 which does have its original box , along with a whole bunch of older models SK800 , 3026 ,3027, F800.TM800,334, etc etc all which would suit the earlier style boxes.

Can any one help where to get them

If Marklin doesn't want to make them themselves mores the pity, they are not keeping up with what the market wants, I'm into old classic cars and more and more companies are realizing the importance of the old school customer who wants to maintain his collections but doesn't mind the modification if done discreetly , EG "Aston Martin Loganda" have really embraced the old cars setting up a completely new division restoring the older models and supplying new Old parts , why does marklin do more of this ??

Any help would be much appreciated

Kind regards Marcus

Welcome Markus.

I have moved your post to the right place.

You can buy the red replika boxes and the light blue illustrated replika boxes on German ebay. (ebay.de)

In the past we had a thread about replika boxes, see here: LINK

Marco

I think this may have been what I was thinking of - not marklin-users.net, but very useful regardless.

http://www.3rotaie.it/3r...tola_Replica.htm#English

Dave, maybe this thread here ? LINK 2

Hi Marcus,

Welcome to the forum. From what you write I gather that you collect vintage Marklin models, like me. Well, model trains can't be compared to oldtimer cars at all. Collectors of vintage cars (I suppose you mean the prototypes, not model toy cars) accept restoration, repainting, etc. because they want to drive them. No car will run without spare parts or repainting for decades, and there are hardly any oldtimers that are still in original condition as well as roadworthy now.

For old model trains, original condition is the most important factor of all. The original box together with the wrapping paper (or cardboard) plus the instruction manual do not guarantee that a locomotive is genuine, but they influence the price a lot. Even seemingly insignificant details like plastic traction tires and old-style pickup shoes on Marklin models from the 1950s show you whether the locomotive has been tampered with or not.
Marklin can't and won't make replica boxes because they are illegal forgeries. Such boxes do not increase the value of your locomotives by one cent. Sellers like the Italian Lucatoni, who offers replica boxes on Ebay.de, probably make those boxes cheaply and them sell them at prices of between 40 and 80 euros.
It's not true that the 'market' wants those boxes. Real collectors despise them. I once got a 3061/4061 UP in fake boxes and sent the stuff back to the seller immediately. Those boxes are worthless, and buying them is a waste of money. Only Lucatoni benefits from the sale. Should collectors encourage and support forgers like that man? I don't think so.

Congratulations on your new acquisitions, but you should look for original boxes on Ebay.de and ask the sellers if they will ship to New Zealand. It can be done, especially for the more common models you list, such as 3026 or 3027, probably also for the F800. If you find an original box that was more or less produced in the same year as the locomotive, you have a perfect match, and the value of that set will be higher than what you originally paid for the two items. This way YOU benefit as a collector, not some kind of forger. I did that for the well-known Capitole locomotive. First I found a genuine 3059 box, then a near-mint 3059.1 that was cheaper because the seller didn't have the real box. I just had to put the locomotive into the box and add an instruction manual that I also found on Ebay.de. Now other collectors would want that Capitole as well, but I won't sell it. Collecting is hard work.
With a little patience you can also find authentic instuction manuals for the more common models, all on Ebay.de. If you're not sure about whether the stuff is authentic or fake, you may ask me. I can usually tell if I see XXL photos. There are lots of fake boxes on Ebay!!

I agree with you that Marklin should make some spare parts for old locomotives. But you see, from their point of view, you're not a customer if you buy vintage Marklin. They're only interested in MRRs who buy their new products, not in collectors like you and me.

Anyway, I can understand that you prefer the vintage models ... Good luck!

Regards, Mark

Hi kweekalot,

You're right about the red boxes. The fakes are pretty good, but that's precisely why a locomotive without a box is better than the same item in a replica box: it has the same value but is cheaper. If the collector buys a replica box that is sold as an original, he wastes a lot of money, and he's been deceived. What's good about that? For common locomotives like 3026 or 3027, it's not very difficult to find an original box or document.

Most collectors exhibit their favourite models in glass cases anyway, which can be done without a box and doesn't cost anything. Obviously the best solution would be an old original box, but with the red boxes it's an uphill struggle. I once bought a red box on Ebay.de, but when I got it I could feel that there was something wrong. I thought the box was a bit small, so I asked other collectors about the measurements. The dimensions corresponded to the box of another Marklin model, and the number on the label had been changed. Fortunately I got my money back from the seller when I returned it. I mainly collect Marklin models from the 60s and 70s, so I don't usually have problems with red boxes.

Best regards,
Mark

Hi Marcus,

Welcome to the forum from me too.

Cheers

Renato

Hi Marcus,

Welcome to the forum. I have bought some replica boxes for my future Crocodiles like lightblue box for 3015 and red box for CCS 800, but only for myself. I would never sell a loco with one of these. As it was too hard to find a good box for these items I then decided to get a good one looking almost like an original one to just have the boxes for the locos. I have also lightblue repro boxes for 3066, 3067 and 3068 Nohab diesels.

At the moment I still need to get the locos for those 3015, CCS 800 and 3067 boxes...

I have around 25 lightblue original boxes and three red 3021 boxes and one F800 box which are original. It is easy to see the difference in the red boxes (original vs. replica), but lightblue boxes are almost the same.

But I agree with Mark that the original boxes increase collectors value of the locos and repro boxes don't do that. I can live with the fact that I don't have the original boxes for these, but I would not want to support forgers. I feel it will save me many hundred euros though when I can buy locos without boxes cheaper now. Crocodiles prices increase rapidly when there is an original good condition box with it.

Regards,
Janne

I think it would be nice if Marklin made replica boxes, just like the originals, but with current dates on them so that they can't be passed off as originals.

Not everyone wants to pay big bucks for an original box in excellent condition, but a cheap box that looks the part is definitely better than no box at all. At least your nice old loco won't gather so much dust!

You might want to be a bit careful throwing words like "forgery" or "fakes" about, as those could count as defamation of character or even libel.

Making replica items is completely legal, so long as you make it clear that they are such. The manufacturer of these boxes doesn't pretend that they're anything other than freshly-made replicas.

If someone sells you an item in a replica box but passes it off as original then they are the one committing fraud, not the person who sold them the box.

That will be Marklin defending their trademarks, as they're legally obliged to if they want to keep them. Otherwise they'd also go after the people making replica parts for use in restorations (which are only made because Marklin's own stock dried up decades ago, and it'd make no sense whatsoever to tie up the factory making a pile of parts which might take years to sell). It's because the items have the Marklin logos on, not because they're replicas.

Personally I find the smaller products from "Really Useful Boxes" (yes, that is the name of the company!) are perfect, they make one which I think is intended for pencils but will hold anything up to a couple of 100cm coaches with space for a layer of bubble wrap either side and between them. My restored F800 lives in one with an inner tray made from crumpled and shaped brown paper.

Hi,

You're right in saying that they don't seem to go after people now. There was that court order in the 1990s, but now replica boxes and spare parts are all over the place. Maybe Märklin tolerates some of that, but all of those replicas are still illegal forgeries. On one of my original light blue boxes I've just had a look at (3073), the name 'Märklin' appears 11 times, and the watercolour illustration on the cover is also copyright as well as the design of the boxes. On the red boxes, the name 'Märklin' is also printed many times.
I have seen some DIY boxes without illustrations or Märklin logos that were simply designed to house and protect the locomotive. That's perfectly legitimate, but the Italian producers of the replica boxes don't do that kind of thing because they couldn't make much money with them. The intention of the replica boxes is clearly to create an illusion, and they are often passed off as genuine when they are sold together with an old locomotive.

I'll translate the important points from the German collector's website I have provided a link to above because one of the people writing there is a real authority on Märklin (actually a published author and the organiser of the oldest MRR market in Germany):

- The first replicas of Märklin H0 boxes appeared in Germany in the late 1970s. At first, they were only meant to replace a missing box.
- In the 1980s, Koll said in his catalogue that the original box accounted for about 20 per cent of the value of a boxed locomotive. After that, collectors started being interested in boxes. MRR markets (Tauschbörsen) for H0 only started in the 1970s and became more popular in the 80s. Gauge 0 material was traded before that.
- Apparently, the replica boxes were first made in Germany, then in the Netherlands until a certain Mr B. from Bologna became the dominant player in that market. Those boxes are still made in Italy now.
- Replica boxes for old gauge 0 models appeared at collector's markets over 40 years ago, before the H0 boxes.
- The 'H0 box mania' started in the 1980s, after Koll's announcement mentioned above.
- Replica boxes are even sold by German sellers on Ebay now. Does Märklin tolerate this? Possibly.
- The expert on Märklin who has written the longest entry on that page (Blech) collects gauge 0 or above and does not care about boxes. He says that people who want a specific box risk being deceived, and those who are aware of the fact that they are buying a fake deceive themselves. (I know his name and have googled him: he's written about 20 books on old tin plate toys.)
- In the past, Märklin used to sell replacement boxes, and there is some evidence that they started doing that more than 100 years ago! Original red boxes were still available in the 1960s after the blue ones were introduced, just like spare parts for old locomotives. Not all the red boxes that turned up at MRR markets were fake. Even as late as 1991, boxes could be ordered from Märklin, but obviously they corresponded to the grey or white boxes that were in use then.

* One thing that is not mentioned in the link is that customers who bought a so-called 'Teilesatz' in the 1970s, such as 3063.2, 3073.2 or 3036.3 could order a matching box if they wanted to, but most didn't. I have a 3073.2 in an original box with a cellophane cover from the 70s with a '3073' sticker, and I have seen a couple more on Ebay. As Märklin seems to have a long tradition of providing spare boxes to customers who needed one, they should make those replica boxes, shouldn't they?

Here's the link once again:

Original oder Replika?

Anyway, Märklin boxes are an intriguing topic.

Best regards,
Mark

Edited by user 21 October 2014 22:39:45(UTC)  | Reason: added some more information