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Offline biedmatt  
#1 Posted : 26 September 2014 23:36:33(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
With MFX, the decoder address is an assigned function of your controller and not embedded in the loko decoder. Because the format works in this manner, lokos will not run until they register with your controller. Most everyone here who uses MFX has had a situation where a loko will not register. Turn on the power to a siding where you parked a few lokos and the situation is likely to occur as the controller re-registers multiple MFX decoders simultaneously. Model trains for me are dynamic, not static toys. They have little worth when they will not run. I grew weary of having to perform a factory reset of my controller to clear a partly registered MFX decoder, reconfigure the controller's IP address so my laptop will again communicate with it and then reload the archived program back into my controller. All this, so I could make a second attempt at getting the loko to run. This problem exits whether it is a Marklin or ESU controller and no matter it is a Marklin or ESU loko decoder. Because it is widespread across two manufacturer's product, I do not believe it is a simple software bug. That then leaves an inherent fault in the format.

My car has had a recall. There have been bugs in the software of my iPhone. These issues do not bother me. Computers have become so much a part of our lives and there is so much code in them that bugs are inevitable. The maker identifies a problem and then corrects it. End of story. What does bother me is when the manufacturer will neither fix their bug nor offer an alternative way to operate it reliably and as it says on the tin. Equal facility is what I am expecting. MM is not an equal format to MFX and is not a substitute when MFX will inevitably fail. You are stuck with flawed MFX and with MM there are only 255 addresses available. One loko needs four MM addresses to operate all sixteen functions the decoder supports. After 63 lokos, you will need to start using duplicate addresses. I have 102 lokos and I believe most here have more than 63. I will bet Marklin would like you to have more than 63 lokos.

I anticipate I have 30+ years left in this hobby. I am not going to screw around with this inherent flaw for the indefinite future. I have replaced all my MFX decoders out of sheer need and all FX decoders out of desire. My expectations of Marklin are simple. Either fix it, or offer a format that performs as you advertised the loko would perform.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline leahcim  
#2 Posted : 27 September 2014 01:10:54(UTC)
leahcim

Australia   
Joined: 12/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: QUEENSLAND, BRISBANE
Hi,

I understand your frustration.
Marklin needs to open up their secrets on their software and format so that problems like this can be solved. Perhaps they have not made back development costs yet so are holding tight but if they have then they are showing poor judgement in not allowing others to improve their system.
There has been so much progress thanks to co-operative development in the open source software and hardware community.
I would suggest instead of responding to questions from marklin of what loco would you like to see made next year that you reply with "make your digital system open so we can have all the features we desire in it."
If enough marklin enthusiasts get on board perhaps they will listen.

michael
Offline xxup  
#3 Posted : 27 September 2014 02:53:31(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,458
Location: Australia
I don't seem to have the trouble with mFx that others have reported. It might be because I use WinDigiPet and that Software somehow lets the eCOS know the mFx address of any reused loco (i.e. previously registered, but just added from the collection ) on the layout. If the loco has never been on the layout, then yes, there is a delay while it registers, but perhaps the problem is more one of "instant on" expectation than a recognition that the controller technology is seven years old. Confused
Adrian
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 27 September 2014 07:36:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
My car has had a recall. There have been bugs in the software of my iPhone.
Part of the problem IMHO: the decoders used by Märklin are locked against sound updates and firmware updates.
If Märklin admits there is a problem then they will have to call back all the decoders. I don't see that coming.

To make mfx sceptics happy, they would have to include DCC in their loco decoders and allow people to disable mfx on a per-loco basis. I don't see that coming for H0.

Matt knows my blog post about my mfx experience (mostly frustrating BTW), but maybe others don't know it yet:
http://blog.mailez.de/eblog/?p=24
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 27 September 2014 07:59:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I don't seem to have the trouble with mFx that others have reported.
I think scalability is part of the problem (probability of problems grows with the number of locomotives). The way you operate your layout also affects this (with all locos always in powered sections of the layout there will be hardly any problems (one of Märklin's new cost-optimized decoders made trouble in such a situation)).

In order to get locos without mfx, I bought some Trix locos. My latest Trix purchase arrived in Göppingen for warranty repairs early in May and didn't come back yet. Another frustrating experience. A 2013 new item, failing on arrival (untested at the factory, as usual) and spending a long time at the factory waiting for the availability of spare parts.
So besides mfx, there also is the lack of quality assurance and the decreasing availability of spare parts that stops me from buying MäTrix locos.

Sorry for derailing the thread: mfx is the topic here, back to topic.
Even if 95+ % have no problems with mfx, Märklin are losing sales because they do not allow to disable mfx on a per-loco basis and because they do not include DCC in three-rail locos. To some extent these lost sales will be compensated by selling more CS2s.
Märklin's mfx policy is good. It's good for my budget. I would lose a lot money if Märklin would offer locos with good motors and "good" decoders again. LOL
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Janne75  
#6 Posted : 27 September 2014 09:28:17(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
I agree Märklin should have unlocked mFx decoders. I think some aftermarket mSD sound decoders are more adjustable at least as individual sound level adjustment is possible. I installed a Märklin 60945 mSD earlier this year to one steam locomotive and I could adjust sound levels individually. But in this case only the 21-pin decoder from that 60945 set was used and the locomotive used was DB BR 03 from starter set 29830. This possibility should be always possible with all mFx decoders from factory... I don't see the point why Märklin wants to limit the adjustments of individual sounds? Confused

I have CS2 60214 controller and there are 113 locomotives and two mFx sound wagons in loco list. I have been lucky as only very seldom there has been issues with mFx registering new loco. When I have tried again it then worked ok. I have no problems with loco registering when they have been once registered to my CS2.

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#7 Posted : 27 September 2014 10:22:41(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
A simple solution: I use loco cards for mfx loco, too. Once a loco is registered on my MS2, I create a loco card. Now, I don't have to wait for mfx registering but only put the loco card I to the MS2 and the loco is ready to drive!

That's it!
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 27 September 2014 12:54:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
That's it!
This may work for you and Ray - but it does not work for Matt or me.

I wish they had invented loco cards earlier than mfx - and would have skipped mfx. Loco cards instead of mfx - that would be it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 27 September 2014 13:16:54(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
This may work for you and Ray - but it does not work for Matt or me.


This would only partially work for me - OK with CS2 and MS2, but no use on my CS1R and Ecos units.

BTW, the KM1 1 Gauge BR01 loco I showed pictures of in the 2014 locos thread has Railcom. It registered itself on the Ecos very quickly, but of course I can't transfer its definition from the Ecos to the CS2 using a loco card! Given it has 25 functions, I suspect there will be a bit of keyboard time on the CS2 to define it (I don't think ESU Loksound 4.0 XL decoders have MFX.)
Offline biedmatt  
#10 Posted : 27 September 2014 13:23:28(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Part of the problem IMHO: the decoders used by Märklin are locked against sound updates and firmware updates.
If Märklin admits there is a problem then they will have to call back all the decoders. I don't see that coming.

To make mfx sceptics happy, they would have to include DCC in their loco decoders and allow people to disable mfx on a per-loco basis. I don't see that coming for H0.


I agree Tom. There are many MFX decoders on the market now, it would be financially impossible for Marklin to recall them and unlock them. I do not think they can be unlocked, but are permanently configured. If they could be reconfigured, some one by now would have hacked them and offered their services. The market for such services would be too lucrative to ignore. But Marklin could make a press announcement stating their decision to offer DCC in their 3-rail lokos in the interest of expanding market share. This may or may not have that effect, but people would accept the explanation.

Marklin holds a very large percentage of the world's model railroad pie, especially in Europe. They have worked hard and have built themselves an enviable position in the market. Unique systems like 3-rail and proprietary systems like MFX have helped to build or control their position in the market. Leverage of one's strengths is human nature and a proven way for corporations to hold and control markets. I like big business. Big business makes the lives we have possible. But, when big business merges with corporate irresponsibility, then I open my mouth. I feel it is irresponsible for Marklin to have let this problem persist as long as it has and affect such a large portion of their customers. I understand many here just reboot their controllers and start over, but wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to work around this problem? Even if it seems trivial to you?

Moritz, I am glad you have found a work around with the MS2. You have found a way to minimize the MFX effect. But many here use Central Stations, or ECoS because it suits their needs better and/or provides the user interface the MS2 lacks. I am also sure Marklin's accountants would like to see you upgrade to a CS2.

I know some are thinking "Why don't you just leave Marklin?" Well folks, Marklin has been my brand since 1971. Even when I left the hobby in the late 80's I still had a very large bit of Marklin left. It is financially impossible for me to change brands and Marklin is a fond part of my childhood that I am grateful to maintain a connection. Watching the Br 01 097 I received for Christmas 1971 run around my track will always bring a smile to my face. Besides, my wants are simple and reasonable, either fix it or offer something that provides equal facility to the flawed MFX format and allows the equipment to reliably operate as you have presented and sold it to me.

Edit: Thank you all for your responses and thoughts. This forum was created so there could be a free exchange of ideas and helps all of us in the Marklin World.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 27 September 2014 13:36:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Marklin holds a very large percentage of the world's model railroad pie
Somewhere around 11 or 12 % AFAIK.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tulit  
#12 Posted : 27 September 2014 16:17:12(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
This may work for you and Ray - but it does not work for Matt or me.


(I don't think ESU Loksound 4.0 XL decoders have MFX.)


It does have mfx (esu calls it m4) and will auto register. You are still limited to the first 16 functions though. I don't thnk there is a way around this.

I have to say I'm in the camp of having no problems with mfx on either my ms2 or cs2. The only fiddling is having to occasionally hit the stop button once or twice to get an initial registration to happen.

That said I'm disappointed too they decided to lock DCC out especially since it wouldn't "cost" them anything to have enabled it. I think it's silly too to spend an extra $100+ just to replace a otherwise perfectly fine decoder to get that feature back in...

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#13 Posted : 27 September 2014 16:57:00(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
This may work for you and Ray - but it does not work for Matt or me.


(I don't think ESU Loksound 4.0 XL decoders have MFX.)


It does have mfx (esu calls it m4) and will auto register. You are still limited to the first 16 functions though. I don't thnk there is a way around this.

Yes, the LokSound XL V4.0 does support
- DCC
- Motorola
- M4 (mfx)
- Selectrix
- analog DC
- analog AC

Download

Moritz
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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 27 September 2014 17:46:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
It does have mfx (esu calls it m4) and will auto register. You are still limited to the first 16 functions though. I don't thnk there is a way around this.
RailCom+ has higher priority, so it will auto register with RailCom+ if possible, allowing more than 16 functions.
You can disable mfx in the decoder and operate it with DCC even if RailCom+ is not available.

A CS2 with PC control will then be able to control more than 16 functions.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#15 Posted : 27 September 2014 19:22:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
No more mfx decoder for me!
It´s same about Trix locomotivs.
I cannot use CV50 adress to change status of protocol with MS2. ThumbDown
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#16 Posted : 27 September 2014 23:56:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
It does have mfx (esu calls it m4) and will auto register.


Thanks Tulit, Moritz and Tom, that will save me some keyboard time on the CS2.

I must admit that I haven't as yet come across the issues that Matt describes, but maybe that is something that is lying in wait for me! My layout is still being built, so does not have massive amount of trains on it. I do have a few locos which have been registered on both the CS2 and Ecos with no issues going back and forth between controllers.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#17 Posted : 27 September 2014 23:59:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
It does have mfx (esu calls it m4) and will auto register. You are still limited to the first 16 functions though. I don't thnk there is a way around this.
RailCom+ has higher priority, so it will auto register with RailCom+ if possible, allowing more than 16 functions.
You can disable mfx in the decoder and operate it with DCC even if RailCom+ is not available.


Yes, I am using the KM1 with DCC (as that is what our club's G1 layout uses). It auto registered on the Ecos once I enabled Railcom on the Ecos, and registered with all 25 functions. Maybe I should try the CS1R with an Ecosboost booster (CS1R doesn't have the necessary hardware for Railcom, but the booster does) with M4 and Railcom enabled just to see what happens!
Offline perz  
#18 Posted : 28 September 2014 00:21:00(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
This problem exits whether it is a Marklin or ESU controller and no matter it is a Marklin or ESU loko decoder. Because it is widespread across two manufacturer's product, I do not believe it is a simple software bug. That then leaves an inherent fault in the format.



Not that it matters for the normal user, but if you study what actually happens in these situations (with a protocol spy tool) it can be seen that the problem lies on the controller side. I have only tested with an MS1, but from the problem reports it seems to be the same kind of problems, with some variations, for all different controller types. You can figure out what the controller ought to do, but it does not do what you would expect it to do according to how the protocol is defined. If you manage to send the expected commands by some other means the situation is resolved, so the problem is not in the decoders nor in the protocol itself.
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 28 September 2014 08:22:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
If you manage to send the expected commands by some other means the situation is resolved, so the problem is not in the decoders nor in the protocol itself.
ESU admit a design flaw with mfx: if a decoder was "away" a long time it will be read again because there is no way for the decoder to quickly indicate that nothing has changed. It would be nice to solve this flaw by upgrading decoder firmware.

It is often recommended to register mfx locos one by one.

I have sidings where I can turn power off. When power is restored, then sometimes all mfx locos on this siding try to register again - all at the same time. In the worst case no loco will ever complete registration. I had this once - I turned power off again and moved the locos one by one to the main track to have them register again.
I don't see how loco cards would help in that situation. The bally decoders are already registered - but the paranoid controller wants to make sure that loco name and function icons are up to date and reads everything again.

I once had a loco that was on the powered main track all the time but did not react any more. Moved to another controller it registered and worked. Moved back it registered again and worked on the layout again.

I don't know where the problem is - controller, decoder, design of protocol. The mfx system as a whole does not work for me.
mfx as it is now will remain disabled and as a matter of principle I won't buy new locos without DCC. Dozens of companies offer three-rail locos that meet this criterion.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#20 Posted : 28 September 2014 08:25:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post


the problem is not in the decoders nor in the protocol itself.


Not really truth!
Märklin prevents unauthorized use of certain protocol,because it is about their own digital system.
If i use Lenz digital system(DCC) and want to buy Märklin locomotiv with sounds,i cannot disable mfx protocol and use DCC instead.
So yes...the problem is Märklin and theirs decoder!

Edited by user 28 September 2014 18:13:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline tulit  
#21 Posted : 28 September 2014 10:54:44(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
If you manage to send the expected commands by some other means the situation is resolved, so the problem is not in the decoders nor in the protocol itself.
ESU admit a design flaw with mfx: if a decoder was "away" a long time it will be read again because there is no way for the decoder to quickly indicate that nothing has changed. It would be nice to solve this flaw by upgrading decoder firmware.

It is often recommended to register mfx locos one by one.

I have sidings where I can turn power off. When power is restored, then sometimes all mfx locos on this siding try to register again - all at the same time. In the worst case no loco will ever complete registration. I had this once - I turned power off again and moved the locos one by one to the main track to have them register again.
I don't see how loco cards would help in that situation. The bally decoders are already registered - but the paranoid controller wants to make sure that loco name and function icons are up to date and reads everything again.

I once had a loco that was on the powered main track all the time but did not react any more. Moved to another controller it registered and worked. Moved back it registered again and worked on the layout again.

I don't know where the problem is - controller, decoder, design of protocol. The mfx system as a whole does not work for me.
mfx as it is now will remain disabled and as a matter of principle I won't buy new locos without DCC. Dozens of companies offer three-rail locos that meet this criterion.


Why do you need sidings where you can switch power off? Doesn't that defeat part of the main purpose of having a digital layout? Although I agree mfx *should* work fine, this doesn't seem to be a intended use case?

Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 28 September 2014 11:39:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
Doesn't that defeat part of the main purpose of having a digital layout?
Locos on powered sections draw current even while standing. Some coaches have lights that cannot be turned off. I'd need a booster and would burn more light bulbs (and maybe also more loco decoders) with power always on.
I have sidings where I can turn the power off. And I use protocols that work reliably and predictably in that situation: DCC and MM (never tried SX, but it should also work).

I use my layout the way I want to use it. If mfx does not fit in, then I disable it.
Some people say there are fewer mfx problems when you use a CS2. But the CS2 is not an option because I want a quick and efficient user interface.

And I already wrote: one mfx loco standing on the powered main track also failed to response. So it's not just a problem of turning power off.

My showcases are also unpowered. With MM and DCC they work instantly without re-registration and without loco card when I put them back onto the layout.
Mobile Station users who have more than 40 locos are used to deleting locos on their controller and automatic re-registration may be a feature then (and loco cards may help).
All my locos are registered with my Central Station and re-registration is a nuisance.

I never had problems with unpowered sidings before I upgraded my Central Station 60212 to version 3.0.1.
For many years I used the Intellibox to control the layout with DCC and MM. Then came the Central Station with DCC, MM, and mfx. And now it's the Central Station with DCC and MM.
If Uhlenbrock had delivered version 2.0 back in 2008 with all promised features, then I probably would still use the Intellibox for the main layout (and my Central Station would probably still have version 2.0.4 and would be used to change the IMHO crappy factory default settings of mfx locos to something that is IMHO acceptable).

Am I intended to help mfx? Or is mfx intended to help me? Well - it doesn't help me as it is and therefore it is disabled.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline biedmatt  
#23 Posted : 28 September 2014 13:22:54(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I have sidings where I can turn power off. When power is restored, then sometimes all mfx locos on this siding try to register again - all at the same time. In the worst case no loco will ever complete registration. I had this once - I turned power off again and moved the locos one by one to the main track to have them register again.


Like Tom, I like to turn power off to track sections where lokos have been parked. This reduces power load for lokos sitting in sidings and turns off the lights on the passenger cars. It is also a good way to be sure when you go to run a loko, if you picked the wrong road number in your controller, you do not accidentally cause a problem in a siding that does not have your attention. I have many versions of 01s, 03s, 44s, 50s, V200s, E10s, E40s, E50s, add nauseam. If I pick the wrong road number in my controller, open the throttle and not realize I chose the wrong road number, I will most likely have a deraillment somewhere on the layout. Turning the power off to those lokos just sitting idle helps prevent this problem.

The other problem is when the lokos will not re-register as Tom describes above. Now you need to push around lokos or remove them from the track to start sorting out the mess. Imagine if this is a blind station under your track. Clearance to the main level above is tight, now include catenary, even if a simple rudimentary catenary used in areas not intended to be seen, you will have a problem reaching your hand in there to fix the fiasco. Why does Marklin think this would not be a problem for us?

Come on Marklin, fix this mess!
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline tulit  
#24 Posted : 28 September 2014 13:38:03(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Alright, I'm sure you've found some valid reasons for yourself for turning off power to the siding.
I guess my point was you are not using the system as it was probably originally intended to be used.

Does this excuse them for the fact that it doesn't work? Probably not.
Should you be surprised you have problems with something they probably didn't test thoroughly as they didn't think people would use it this way? Probably not.

I think Tom has the right idea:
Quote:
I use my layout the way I want to use it. If mfx does not fit in, then I disable it.


Obviously it sounds like MFX doesn't work well with this use case. Maybe for the people who don't have issues with it (myself included) it is because we don't operate our layout in this way.
Offline biedmatt  
#25 Posted : 28 September 2014 13:51:03(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post

Should you be surprised you have problems with something they probably didn't test thoroughly as they didn't think people would use it this way? Probably not.


Then I can only describe this as a lack of imagination on Marklin's part. For decades model railroaders have been switching power off to sidings with the very signals Marklin makes. Why wouldn't they think we would continue this practice? My post above explaining how this can prevent derailments is one such reason to continue operating your layout as we have done for years.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline tulit  
#26 Posted : 28 September 2014 13:56:52(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Quote:
For decades

Exactly, this implies it's a way of thinking from decades (i.e. analog only setups) ago ;).
I honestly didn't realize until today that people still did this on their digital setups.

I guess I don't see a valid reason to need to. Quiescent power, the fix (although not free) is to add a booster to that section. Derailments, sorry, but that's user error if you need to kill power to prevent crashing things together.

I'll have to experiment around with this now though as I'm curious now what sorts of problems I would run into with MFX.
Offline biedmatt  
#27 Posted : 28 September 2014 14:03:19(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Then I do not understand why they still manufacture signals, including signals that represent prototypical siding signals, that include a switch meant to be wired into your track so it will remove power from the lokos.

Edit: See post 23 paragraph 1 for a solid reason to continue to remove the power from sidings.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline tulit  
#28 Posted : 28 September 2014 14:15:15(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Then I do not understand why they still manufacture signals, including signals that represent prototypical siding signals, that include a switch meant to be wired into your track so it will remove power from the lokos.


Maybe as a way to up-sell you to buy the $150 braking modules to go with them :D
But in seriousness, in prototypical setup, would you have more than one locomotive on the same block? Probably not.

Though, if we're griping about their products, the digital signals they made are IMO their worst products ever. Those I never had any luck with. One of my cats ended up destroying them and I never bother to replace them (probably for the best).
Offline H0  
#29 Posted : 28 September 2014 14:19:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
Derailments, sorry, but that's user error if you need to kill power to prevent crashing things together.
There are a few Märklin locos - especially some with the big C Sine motor - that sometimes start running even though they are meant to stand still. Turning track power off can be a workaround to manufacturer's lack of quality assurance.

Duplicate addresses due to limited address range (only 15 with many Delta decoders and some digital decoders unless you start soldering) is IMHO another good reason to turn track power off.

Before the 60174 came out, the 6017 was the only booster available for M track. And since the 6017 does not provide mfx feedback, you can end up having unresponsive locos even without turning track power off.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tulit  
#30 Posted : 28 September 2014 14:26:01(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
Derailments, sorry, but that's user error if you need to kill power to prevent crashing things together.
There are a few Märklin locos - especially some with the big C Sine motor - that sometimes start running even though they are meant to stand still. Turning track power off can be a workaround to manufacturer's lack of quality assurance.

Duplicate addresses due to limited address range (only 15 with many Delta decoders and some digital decoders unless you start soldering) is IMHO another good reason to turn track power off.

Before the 60174 came out, the 6017 was the only booster available for M track. And since the 6017 does not provide mfx feedback, you can end up having unresponsive locos even without turning track power off.


Sure, but once again, these are all just workarounds for some other issues.

I guess, would you agree the intended (or maybe ideal?) use case is to just have everything on all the time? To me, that was the point of digital.
It's unfortunate MFX doesn't work well outside of this though.
Offline biedmatt  
#31 Posted : 28 September 2014 14:34:19(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Reduction of risk. Removing power reduces the risk of derailments. If you want to call it operator error, fine, I would agree. Please realize though all industries do everything they can to eliminate operator error and reduce risk, including the railroads. Stupid humans try all sorts of ways to kill themselves. I have trouble reading the 1/8 inch high road number on a loko parked under the layout in a dark place. Unfortunately, the Preiserlings don't provide me with the correct road number. Marklin do this stuff for a living. They should have understood and imagined we would operate the equipment this way. As I said earlier, it is not anything new.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline biedmatt  
#32 Posted : 28 September 2014 14:44:43(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Let's put the example above aside and say it isn't Marklin's fault, I am operating the equipment improperly. The MFX decoders still have registration problems when a loko is removed from the shelf and placed on the track. Ray operates his layout this way and has stated twice before he has had a problem. I hope Marklin did foresee this method of operation. Why won't they fix it? Can they? I don't think they can. They surely are aware of the problem. You can not design, manufacture and test the quantity of lokos they do and not experience the problem.

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I don't know if this is relevant, but I have had a couple of occasions only when a loco has failed to register. After reading advice on this forum (I think it was from Tom), I did a factory reset on my MS2 and the loco immediately registered afterwards.

Of course this way you lose everything in your loco list and you might have to spend some time re-entering all your locos, so there is some pain involved.


https://www.marklin-user...mFX-work.aspx#post467628
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline tulit  
#33 Posted : 28 September 2014 14:57:56(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Hi Matt.

Maybe I misunderstand, but why do you need to "re-register" your locomotive? After the initial registration, it gets put into your locomotive database. Next time you pop it onto the track, don't you just select it from the list and away you go?

Or do you mean the initial registration? I have this problem from time-to-time too. It always get solved by hitting stop a few times (I guess to cycle everything). Annoying, but not too bad considering it only has to happen once for new locomotives.
Offline biedmatt  
#34 Posted : 28 September 2014 15:07:07(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
Hi Matt.

Maybe I misunderstand, but why do you need to "re-register" your locomotive? After the initial registration, it gets put into your locomotive database. Next time you pop it onto the track, don't you just select it from the list and away you go?

Or do you mean the initial registration? I have this problem from time-to-time too. It always get solved by hitting stop a few times (I guess to cycle everything). Annoying, but not too bad considering it only has to happen once for new locomotives.


I do mean re-registration. When a loko has "been away" from the controller for an extended period of time (parked in a dead siding or placed on the shelf) the format requires the controller to reacquire the loko. I do not understand why, doesn't the controller already know and recognize this MFX decoder? But that is how it works. Tom explained it in better detail here somewhere. So, whether a whole new registration or aquisition of a loko the controller already knows, there are times when the controller will not complete the registration. The loko will not run and you have to clear your controller as I have link above to Ray's post. Edit: If you did not have to re-register, then the loko I parked in that dead siding would be known to my controller and ready to operate.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline biedmatt  
#35 Posted : 28 September 2014 15:51:21(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
To be perfectly honest, I created this thread because I got tired of hearing how crazy I was for replacing the MFX decoders in my lokos. I decided I needed to explain in one thread the problems I have with MFX and my motivation to change out the decoders. The biggest reason being that this problem does not seem to be reaching some sort of resolution at Marklin. Indefinite is not an amount of time I am willing to suffer the aggravation. A discussion on the problem was also needed so Marklin may learn how unhappy many of us are with MFX. I have been less than kind to Marklin management in another thread. This problem is my biggest complaint. Yes, there are other complaints, but they are really insignificant to this problem. I honestly believe they can not fix the problem. But I also hope I am wrong and will willingly state as much if they ever fix it. If they do, every Marklin user will be a winner.

Edit: start at post #73 and go down:
https://www.marklin-user...talogues.aspx#post468557

Edited by user 28 September 2014 20:41:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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H0
Offline sjlauritsen  
#36 Posted : 28 September 2014 20:54:59(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
If they do, every Marklin user will be a winner.

I do not know how all this Märklin/ESU thing works, but isn't ESU piggybacking on their knowledge about mfx from times past? I mean, if Märklin would ever fix anything, would they tell ESU so they could provide an update for the EcOS or CS1R? I think you would need a genuine Märklin product to take advantage of whatever updates they will provide.

And for the record: I never thought you were crazy for replacing your decoders. I think you should go with whatever suits your needs. Smile I actually just felt sorry for you, because of the expenses... Crying
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline biedmatt  
#37 Posted : 28 September 2014 21:20:07(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I am sure ESU has stopped any work they did with MFX years ago. How it would work out between Marklin equipment and ESU's would remain an open question, but probably not favorable to ESU. At this point in time, Marklin controllers do not even work reliably with Marklin decoders. A resolution to the cause of partial registrations at the moment rests with Marklin. It is after all, their proprietary format. So far, they are not doing very well with the fix.

Edit: I estimate about $6K. I am excluding the FX and old AC conversions because this discussion is about MFX decoders. Money that would have landed in Marklin's pocket as more equipment. Instead it went to ESU. From this side of the fence, the sorrow is the other way around. I am finished and have a system that works all the time, works the way I want, works the way it should and is made and supported by a manufacturer who cares. You boys are stuck with MFX forever.

Edit 2: But, it now works every single time, 100% of the time. Railcom+ provides the auto registration that MFX does. Engine number and all function buttons are imported, just like MFX. Put it on the track and in less than 5 seconds you are running. If the controller sees that you have placed a new loko on the track and that address has already been assigned, it will advise you of the conflict and offer suggestions, including another address before the loko registers. Once it is registered, you never have a re-register. No wondering if you will be reaching in a dark hole to push around some lokos that did not re-register. Pull an engine off the shelf because you want to run it and you won't have the possibility of having to clear and reprogram your controller so you can do what you wanted the hour before. Why can't Marklin make MFX work so well? They tell me what MFX will do, but they forgot to include that you may spend some unexpected time making those engines run. MFX as it exists now, just sucks.

Edited by user 30 September 2014 13:27:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline H0  
#38 Posted : 28 September 2014 22:15:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
I do not know how all this Märklin/ESU thing works, but isn't ESU piggybacking on their knowledge about mfx from times past?
ESU made the Mobile Station 1 and Central Station 1 for Märklin and for several years they made the mfx decoders for Märklin.

New Märklin controllers are supposed to work with old "Märklin" decoders (ESU decoders really) and new Märklin decoders are supposed to work with old "Märklin" controllers (ESU controllers really).
I think ESU have all the information they need.
The software of Mobile Station 1 and Central Station 1 seem to be very stable - while the MS2 didn't work with ESU V4 M4 decoders because of an incorrect mfx implementation in the MS2 and MS2 with version 1.81 or earlier does not work correctly with mfx+ decoders.

The lights of locos with Märklin 6090 decoder flicker a lot with MS2 or CS2, but there is hardly any flickering with CS1 reloaded.
Long story short: I do not know which company really implements the protocols correctly - but I'm confident that ESU did a good job and continue to do a good job.
I'm not so confident about Märklin. They don't seem to get MM and DCC work properly on their MS2.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#39 Posted : 28 September 2014 22:49:08(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello Tom,
I run mfx, MM and DCC on my MS2 and in 99% it works fine. OK, there is still this issue with MM when there is no MM loco on first direct memory place. But that's all. I can confihure DCC decoders completely, I can configure MM decoders and mfx decoders for basic settings. I only miss the possibility to modify mfx decoder settings for sound and other function mapping with my MS2. Therefore, I prefer decoder with DCC support or with DCC and mfx.
Offline tulit  
#40 Posted : 28 September 2014 23:14:43(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Does anyone know if marklin still even does their own software? I know the hardware for at least the cs2 was outsourced. What about the firmware for it?
Offline H0  
#41 Posted : 28 September 2014 23:24:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
OK, there is still this issue with MM when there is no MM loco on first direct memory place. But that's all.
That bug is known for a long time, can easily be replicated - and Märklin do not seem to be able to fix it.

The editor bug is not really an issue, but it's known for more than a year now. Last year Märklin confirmed they were able to replicate it and would fix it soon.
It's not fixed yet ...
https://www.marklin-user...displays.aspx#post416863

There are more bugs and issues with the MS2 and/or CS2:
https://www.marklin-user...wn-issues.aspx#post11028

The MS2 supports more addresses than the CS2, therefore loco cards from the MS2 may not work with the CS2.
The CS2 supports characters the MS2 does not support which causes problems the other way around or when an MS2 is connected to a CS2.
Loco cards do not store how many speed steps the user selected and loco may not work when switching between from MS2 to CS2 or the other way around.

Looks as if there is one development team for the MS2 and one for the CS2 - two teams that do not communicate and that do not test interoperability.

This is not related to mfx, but illustrates the high quality level of the company that used to call itself the "innovation pace maker".
At least they announce many new features.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline perz  
#42 Posted : 28 September 2014 23:57:00(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
When a loko has "been away" from the controller for an extended period of time (parked in a dead siding or placed on the shelf) the format requires the controller to reacquire the loko. I do not understand why, doesn't the controller already know and recognize this MFX decoder? But that is how it works.


I would rather say that this is a policy of the controller, rather than inherent in the mfx protocol. On an MS1 this is not dependent on the time but rather on some other conditions (don't remember them exactly, since it was long time ago I did these tests). But I suspect there might be some kind of "timeout" in some other controllers.
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Offline H0  
#43 Posted : 29 September 2014 08:40:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: perz Go to Quoted Post
On an MS1 this is not dependent on the time but rather on some other conditions
AFAIK none of the common mfx controllers (MS1, MS2, CS1, CS2) has a real-time clock, so it always depends on "conditions" and never on the time.

Locos that are off power or off the track will miss certain events and have to re-register when power is restored and the event counters are out of sync.
That's the design flaw that was admitted by ESU (but AFAIK never by Märklin): the event counter does not indicate that the loco was modified, it just indicates the loco missed events.
Still this situation leads to a full re-registration as locos are treated as "unknown".

The loco would have to increment a counter each time it gets programmed (altered). The controller could use this counter to decider whether a full registration or just a re-hi is needed.


Suppose there are 12 era II locos and the layout and 12 era III locos in the showcase - all mfx.
The right way to switch from era II to era III is powering up the controller, then move locos one by one from the showcase to the layout.
Moving all 12 locos while the controller is off (or on STOP) and then activating it may lead to a deadlock with 12 locos trying to register at the same time - and none completing registration.

It's easy to put a Bo'Bo' on the track without a short, but it's not so easy with a Pacific or a Decapod.
So it's STOP while you put the first loco on the track, then it's GO to have it registered, then it's STOP while you put the second loco on the track ...
And all that to prevent problems with an automatic system that is meant to bring more comfort.

mfx is a good example for a plug'n'pray system. It may work if you make the right steps in the right order. It's not a foolproof plug'n'play system.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline perz  
#44 Posted : 01 October 2014 23:20:28(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Here are some facts about how mfx works. It is based on Rainer Müller's findings, but I want to stress the fact that I have verified practically everything by doing measurements and experiments myself.

  • Each decoder holds a 32-bit identification number. The ID number is constant and unique. There are not (or should at least not be) two decoders in the world with the same ID number.

  • Each controller identifies itself to the decoder with a combination of a 32-bit constant and unique controller identification number plus a 16-bit variable sequence number. From the decoder's point of view, the controller ID is the combination of the two numbers. So the decoder will not distinguish between changing the sequence number and replacing the controller with another one.

  • Each decoder can be in two main states. Either it has an address assigned, or it does not have an address assigned (according to Rainer Müller's terminology, the address assigned state is split into two slightly different states). It can only be operated with normal drive commands if it has an address assigned.

  • If the decoder has an address assigned, it can go to the no address assigned state only as an effect of either of two different commands from the controller: a) A controller identification message which differs in contents from the previous controller identification message the decoder has seen. b) A "ping" command (request to the decoder to give a simple response) which is sent to the decoder's address but contains a decoder ID that does not match. There is nothing else than these two commands (as far as Rainer Müller or I have seen) that can cause the decoder to drop its assigned address.

  • If the decoder does not have an address assigned (and only then), the decoder will respond to "search" commands sent by the controller. The search command asks all decoders within a certain decoder ID range to respond. The range could be as small as a single ID or as big as all possible IDs, depending on the command data. The decoder will respond with a simple "hi" if it is in the ID range, and keep quiet if it is outside the range. The "search" is a plain query process. It does not affect the state of the decoder.

  • Regardless of in which state the decoder is, the controller can assign a new address to it as long as the controller knows the ID number of the decoder.


So, what do we get from this?

  • Massive re-registration occurs because: a) the controller has updated its sequence number (or has been replaced) and b) the controller does not try to reassign addresses to the decoders it knows of (or could know of), but instead relies on the search process to find them again.

  • Failure to complete during massive re-registration is caused by probing too large chunks of decoder IDs at the same time. If too many decoders respond at the same time, the replies may interfere. A smarter search algorithm could resolve this (but it is still a slow process).

  • If the controller has assigned an address to a decoder, but then forgets that, and does not change its sequence number, the decoder will not respond to search and will not be found again. In real error situations there are some complications. The controllers are not so stupid that they just straight off forget what they are doing. But in some odd situations they forget. (The error situation can then suddenly be resolved if the controller happens to assign the same address to another decoder, and then pings that decoder.)



I see nowhere a problem situation that could not have been neatly resolved if the controllers had been a little bit smarter. So I still claim the problem is in the controller implementations and not in the protocol itself.


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Offline H0  
#45 Posted : 02 October 2014 08:11:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The ESU manual describes situations that lead to re-registrations.

Global re-registration of all locos occurs
  • after restoring a backup
  • after deletion of a loco while controller was on STOP


If a loco is being deleted, then all locos that were not powered on a section with mfx feedback at that time will register again (applies to showcases, sidings that are turned off, and red signals with or without breaking modules).

I tried to follow these instructions, but still had too many re-registrations when restoring power to my sidings. Maybe the list in the ESU manual is not complete.

The automatic registration "feature" - as it is implemented now - does not help me. I wasted a lot of time waiting for locos to register the n-th time. I wasted a lot of time trying to get it work in an acceptable way and finally I turned it off. I don't know what to blame (protocol, controller, decoder).
It doesn't work. Compulsory mfx that cannot be disabled in the decoder prevents me from buying a loco (no more locos from the market leader). M4 or mfx that can be disabled in the decoder is not a problem.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#46 Posted : 02 October 2014 09:08:55(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I never see any locos re-registering themselves if they are already registered. Is this because I use a MS2? Does this only happen with a Central station?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#47 Posted : 02 October 2014 09:48:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Is this because I use a MS2? Does this only happen with a Central station?
I think I never saw this with an MS2. But my MS2s get factory resets frequently (once a month or more often).
I've seen re-registrations with CS1 and CS2.

Problem with CS1 and ECoS: it reads all decoder settings during the registration. It reads them all again during re-registration.
CS2 is different: it reads all the decoder settings when you open the CV screen - and forgets them all when you close the CV screen. If you find during the test run that you have to adjust more values, it will read them all again.

IMHO a mix of both approaches would be better: lazy reading (read data when it is needed, not earlier) plus caching (store data that was read).
CS1 supports caching without lazy reading, CS2 supports lazy reading without caching. I consider both implementations (CS1 and CS2) a waste of my time.

MS2 cannot change sophisticated settings with mfx decoders, so it has to read a small fraction of the mfx data only and registration is much quicker.

With the CS2 you can run locos while in the CV screen. Running locos there is less comfortable than normal operation.
But this allows you to test all settings before closing the screen, thus you can avoid reading all settings again.
To save time with mfx locos you have to use the CS2 or the CS1 in a specific way (that seems unnatural to me).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline PJMärklin  
#48 Posted : 02 October 2014 12:24:22(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I never see any locos re-registering themselves if they are already registered. Is this because I use a MS2? Does this only happen with a Central station?


Hello Ray et al,

May I say that I have never encountered this problem on my 6021.


Regards,

PJ
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H0
Offline RayF  
#49 Posted : 02 October 2014 14:35:16(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I never see any locos re-registering themselves if they are already registered. Is this because I use a MS2? Does this only happen with a Central station?


Hello Ray et al,

May I say that I have never encountered this problem on my 6021.


Regards,

PJ


Hi PJ,

Neither did I, to be honest, but I didn't have this problem with analogue either. I guess it depends on whether you want to stay with what's safe and well understood or progress to the latest technology.

I was quite happy with my 6021 until I started hearing others express their views about how much more you get with MFX and the newer controllers, so I bought a MS2 when it became available and established, and I am not at all tempted to go back to the old ways.

It's ironic really that once a new technology becomes established then you get more people complaining about its shortcomings! I'm guessing though that those who are actually happy with what they have are the silent majority.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Goofy  
#50 Posted : 02 October 2014 18:26:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I use only DCC protocol in my MS2 and don´t need to registration locomotivs.
I feel this better comfort,when i don´t need been worried if mfx data reacts strange with so called ghost protocol.
Depends if what kind of decoder i use.
With Märklins you never know...
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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