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Offline Rheingold55  
#1 Posted : 27 September 2014 03:45:20(UTC)
Rheingold55

United States   
Joined: 27/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 12

I have mostly analog Marklin engines and signals and run them on M track. Recently I purchased some Digital engines and can't make use of their full features . Can I replace the older marklin blue box transformers and 6600 control box with a Digital power configuration and can someone give me guidance on that?
Offline xxup  
#2 Posted : 27 September 2014 05:32:08(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Welcome to the forum.

The good news is that you don't need to replace your M-track to play in the digital world, but you may need to replace older turnouts like the 5117 with the 5202 if you use the modern passenger cars or long freight wagons as they catch on the larger lanterns on the older track.

The bad news is that you can't run analogue and digital on the same layout.

At the simplest level all you need is a controller (ESU eCOS, Marklin CS2 or Marklin MS2) and a transformer. The transformer wires power the controller (not the track) and the controller provides the power to the track. This enables you run mulitple trains around your layout.

If you want to operate the turnouts remotely through your controller, you also need some Marklin k83 or Veissmann 5211.

Get the trains running first and then ask more about the turnouts.

The big thing for running using M-track is to keep the track clean. A clean track and clean loco wheels ensures smooth running at very low speeds..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline PJMärklin  
#3 Posted : 27 September 2014 06:39:09(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Welcome to the forum.


The bad news is that you can't run analogue and digital on the same layout.




Actually, you can.

You can run the digital off the track power and the analogue off the caternary (but of course this is only for electric locos)

Regards,

PJ
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Offline Renato  
#4 Posted : 28 September 2014 17:15:55(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

Do not use the old blue transformers with your digital locomotives as you could damage the decoders, principally if you change the travel direction.

To know more about that topic, please have a look at other threads, as this has already been discussed in the forum.

Cheers

Renato
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Offline BrandonVA  
#5 Posted : 30 September 2014 17:37:06(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Welcome to the forum.

The bad news is that you can't run analogue and digital on the same layout.



I have my main power leeds (red wires/center rail) hooked up to a multiple pole on-off-on toggle switch. All I have to do to go from analog to digital is flip the switch (and remove analog locomotives from the track if the case is to go to digital). This isn't exactly doing it at the same time, but it allows you to choose analog or digital running with the same layout. Everything uses a common ground.

My recommendation would be to get an MS2, it's pretty affordable and very easy to setup.

-Brandon

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Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 30 September 2014 21:31:30(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I would not recommend using a toggle, as this poses a risk off having the voltage from one transformer damage the other, which can be fatal to a 6021 or CS/MS as the controller is positioned between the track and the transformer. If you want to have alternate options of powering your layout from analog or digital sources, what I would recommend is that you install some kind of connectors to the power wires (between the digital unit and the track) and similar connectors on the feeders from the analog transformer and then you can choose which one is connected to the layout at any given time, but ensures that only one power source can be connected at a time. You can get two pole polarized connectors at almost any electronics parts stores.

Regards

Mike C
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 01 October 2014 10:19:14(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I have a toggle switch in circuit as suggested by Brandon. Mike's concerns are addressed on my layout by making sure that the analogue transformer is set to "0" and the MS2 is at "stop" before I switch between them, but even if I forget there should be no point during which the two feeds to the switch can connect to each other.

The main concern when used like this is to ensure that your analogue locos are sitting in isolated sections before applying the digital power.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline BrandonVA  
#8 Posted : 01 October 2014 16:07:50(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I have a toggle switch in circuit as suggested by Brandon. Mike's concerns are addressed on my layout by making sure that the analogue transformer is set to "0" and the MS2 is at "stop" before I switch between them, but even if I forget there should be no point during which the two feeds to the switch can connect to each other.

The main concern when used like this is to ensure that your analogue locos are sitting in isolated sections before applying the digital power.


This is what I do (tranfos at zero, MS2 stop). This is also why I use an on-off-on switch as opposed to an on-on switch, there is no power to anything in the middle position, which helps prevent any sort of crossover between systems. I run my MS2s and analog transformers on different power strips, so you can choose which system to power up. I run my accessories off a separate transformer that never gives power to the track ("red" connection not use for track, will be used for dimming lights when I get there).

-Brandon
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Offline MikeR  
#9 Posted : 01 October 2014 18:07:12(UTC)
MikeR

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 263
Location: Denver
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The main concern when used like this is to ensure that your analogue locos are sitting in isolated sections before applying the digital power.


Hi Ray and Brandon

Surely there is also a problem if digital locos are on the track when the system is switched to analogue? All digital locos will start up when analogue power is applied to the track. I am planning on having my hidden yard on a separate booster. The hidden yard will never be connected to the analogue transformer. To run analogue I will clear the main line of all digital locos by storing them in my hidden yard. I can then safely run my analogue locos on the main line. As you can surmise I am planning on running my digital trains a lot more than my analogue - hence the need to store my digital locos on an isolated track.

All my accessory decoders are connected on a separate bus directly to my CS2 which is not used to power any track. Points, uncouplers etc can then be controlled by the CS2 irrespective of whether analogue or digital power is being used to run my trains. This has been suggested in a number of previous threads. To switch between analogue and digital I am planning on using the on-off-on two pole switches as mentioned.
Mike
Digital - C track with CS2 and Railroad&Co TrainController; feedback using LocoIO via a Locobuffer
Analog - M track with solid centre rail (after C track layout is complete)
Collect all Eras - especially Crocodiles
Member of ETE
Previously a member of the Marklin Modellers' Group Johannesburg
Offline RayF  
#10 Posted : 01 October 2014 19:34:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: MikeR Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The main concern when used like this is to ensure that your analogue locos are sitting in isolated sections before applying the digital power.


Hi Ray and Brandon

Surely there is also a problem if digital locos are on the track when the system is switched to analogue? All digital locos will start up when analogue power is applied to the track. I am planning on having my hidden yard on a separate booster. The hidden yard will never be connected to the analogue transformer. To run analogue I will clear the main line of all digital locos by storing them in my hidden yard. I can then safely run my analogue locos on the main line. As you can surmise I am planning on running my digital trains a lot more than my analogue - hence the need to store my digital locos on an isolated track.

All my accessory decoders are connected on a separate bus directly to my CS2 which is not used to power any track. Points, uncouplers etc can then be controlled by the CS2 irrespective of whether analogue or digital power is being used to run my trains. This has been suggested in a number of previous threads. To switch between analogue and digital I am planning on using the on-off-on two pole switches as mentioned.


Hi Mike,

I can only run four - five trains at a time on my small layout. I have four sidings/platform roads that can be isolated from the rest of the layout, so when I switch from running digital to running analogue I make sure that the trains are in their isolated sections, so that only one will run when I turn the knob in analogue mode. I then change the digital locos one by one to the analogue locos. I only keep both digital and analogue locos on track during the transition from one mode to the other. I don't generally run them both simultaneously.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Rheingold55  
#11 Posted : 01 October 2014 19:49:20(UTC)
Rheingold55

United States   
Joined: 27/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Welcome to the forum.


The bad news is that you can't run analogue and digital on the same layout.




Actually, you can.

You can run the digital off the track power and the analogue off the caternary (but of course this is only for electric locos)

Regards,

PJ


Since my digital locos are electric, could I do the opposite and effectively use the caternary for digital locos only, starting out with the MS2, 60113 connection box, and the 60055 transformer to run the caternary line?
Offline BrandonVA  
#12 Posted : 01 October 2014 22:06:32(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: Rheingold55 Go to Quoted Post


Since my digital locos are electric, could I do the opposite and effectively use the caternary for digital locos only, starting out with the MS2, 60113 connection box, and the 60055 transformer to run the caternary line?


Yes, you can do it this way too. It does not matter which feeds digital or analog as long as the following are true:

-Outside rails are common ground (brown wire)
-Caternary and center studs never touch/get shorted together.

You could also employ a method of switching if desired (only power caternary or center rail at any given time), but it does limit operations. When operating digital, it's easy to stop everything - hit the stop button on the MS2. With analog, you have to cut the power or turn the knob to zero...sometimes it's a little harder to do quickly.

Careful, digital control can be addictive ;)

-Brandon

Offline PJMärklin  
#13 Posted : 02 October 2014 05:22:50(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Rheingold55 Go to Quoted Post


Since my digital locos are electric, could I do the opposite and effectively use the caternary for digital locos only, starting out with the MS2, 60113 connection box, and the 60055 transformer to run the caternary line?


Yes, you can do it this way too. It does not matter which feeds digital or analog as long as the following are true:

-Outside rails are common ground (brown wire)
-Caternary and center studs never touch/get shorted together.

You could also employ a method of switching if desired (only power caternary or center rail at any given time), but it does limit operations. When operating digital, it's easy to stop everything - hit the stop button on the MS2. With analog, you have to cut the power or turn the knob to zero...sometimes it's a little harder to do quickly.

Careful, digital control can be addictive ;)

-Brandon



Hello,

re Digital via the caternary, I recently posted this :

UserPostedImage

Regards,

PJ
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Offline BrandonVA  
#14 Posted : 02 October 2014 18:35:21(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
PJ,

Very interesting, I've never seen that. It looks like this is for C80 decoders...does anyone know if it applies to C90, etc? Whether you can do it probably depends on what you have as far as Locomotives/decoders.

-Brandon
Offline witzlerh  
#15 Posted : 03 October 2014 18:02:31(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
You can mix analogue and digital together. I just did a train show where the analogue was powered through the catenary and the rest of the layout was digital. As long as the ground was set to common, it can work.

As mentioned above, you can have either digital or analogue on the track as well but not at the same time. The On -off - on switch method is good to guarantee that analoge and digital power sources do not mix at any time.

Most modern decoders can handle raw power, they just go fast. If you have older delta or other decoders, more care has to be taken to not have these taking the raw AC as the voltage can be higher, particularily during the direction changing pulse!

Now the issue of running digital off catenary... I think that it can be possible. Marklin did not recommend it for a while as there is more likely chance that there will be arcing and intermitent contact. A lot of intermittent contact can confuse the older decoders. This has happened to me on a lok that had a bad ground in the wheels and body(since repaired).

It is up to you to do as much as possible to have good, clean power pick-up from the catenary. Consider havinging several power drops on the catenary to bridge gaps and have clean power and signal to the lok.

So. Provided that you have a very good, clean catenary, perhaps using both pantographs up (not that prototypical) to get better continuous contact, perhaps adding a capacitor in decoder to handle intermittent contact, I think that you can run digital from catenary.

I just got a BR182 (39840) with sound that has the option to pull power from rails or overhead....just like the old days. I also have not gotten any recent warnings not to use the catenary for digital purposes, although I did get some years ago in the earlier days of digital.

So if you are careful, You can try running digital from overhead.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
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