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Offline Marklin in Oz  
#1 Posted : 31 August 2014 04:23:52(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Cursing

I recently purchased a new switch motor and the 74461 decoder for use with an MS2 and four previously installed 74460 decoders. Now the 74460s I installed all went in without a hitch, the 74461 on the other hand is giving me fits. It's hooked in as per the instructions, yet nothing happens when I try to control it through the MS2 (With the exception of a nasty sounding electrical humming noise at one point that could have easily come from the motor).

So before I start troubleshooting, I was wondering if there are any known issues either with the decoder itself, or compatibility with it's predecessor.

UserPostedImage

-Fred
Offline sjlauritsen  
#2 Posted : 31 August 2014 10:49:08(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
My experience is that the motors are really bad. I have a 75% failure rate on mine. Take the motor back to your dealer. I have stopped buying these motors until Märklin comes up with a new design.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 31 August 2014 12:47:29(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Søren is right about the motors, they can have a high failure rate.

In this case, though, it looks like the problem might be with the new 74461 decoder. Have you tried this decoder on another motor, or another decoder on this motor? This would help to narrow the problem down to one component.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#4 Posted : 31 August 2014 15:18:29(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
In this case, though, it looks like the problem might be with the new 74461 decoder. Have you tried this decoder on another motor, or another decoder on this motor? This would help to narrow the problem down to one component.

Yes try and use the decoder with another motor. Just to find the cause of the error.

Since the motor is actually giving away a humming sound when trying to throw the switch, I think the motor is the problem. The reason being that the problems with the motor is often the end-contacts inside it breaks. When they do, this humming sound can occur and the motor will not throw the switch. Some times you can throw the switch manually and the have the motor throw it back. But it will only work for a limited time then the motor is completely dead.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 31 August 2014 16:39:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The failure mechanism in the motors seems to be in the end shut-off contacts. They get oxidised and don't allow the current to get to the coil.

I have kept some of mine alive by dribbling some oil or WD40 into the motor. This cleans the surface of the contacts and allows the switch to work for a while.

Of my 12 solenoids in use, four exhibit this fault, and two others seem reluctant to flick the points over, as if they were not strong enough, but this could be due to excessive friction in the turnout mechanism.

I have had less problems with the newer version than with the old.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Marklin in Oz  
#6 Posted : 01 September 2014 04:23:30(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
The motor works fine. I switched it out as you were discussing, which was the plan, so yes there's something up with the chip (Or something I'm missing). The only other thing I can think of is the track itself, but trains run on it just fine, so it does have power.
Blink

Thanks for the input by the way.
Smile
-Fred
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#7 Posted : 01 September 2014 06:04:48(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: Marklin in Oz Go to Quoted Post
The motor works fine. I switched it out as you were discussing, which was the plan, so yes there's something up with the chip (Or something I'm missing). The only other thing I can think of is the track itself, but trains run on it just fine, so it does have power.

Did you also put another working motor on the decoder? Just curious if that stopped working. My experience with the bad motors are that the failures are periodic.

If it is the decoder that will tell us. There is a first time for everything, I just never had any problems with the decoder. Which is why I wonder. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline Marklin in Oz  
#8 Posted : 01 September 2014 09:26:13(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Quote:
Did you also put another working motor on the decoder?


Yes, one that I know for a fact works. Still nothing from the decoder. So here's your first time. Tongue
-Fred
Offline Janne75  
#9 Posted : 01 September 2014 09:49:14(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi Fred,

I assume you have set the correct digital addresses to your turnout decoders according to the instructions. Do you have correct polarity (+ and -) for the power supply? Red wire B = + and brown wire O = - ?

I have only one programmable turnout decoder in a three-way turnout as it is the only type available for it. All my other decoders are with these same DIP switches like yours as I prefer to use these instead. Those programmable turnout decoders are the ones I would have myself problems as those are so stupidly manufactured. For example if one wants to use turnout lanterns it is then required to solder the wires to the circuit board etc... In my opinion it is really ok to set a decoder address for a turnout and leave it then as it is without any need to change it by re-programming it. I also don´t need any dimmable turnout lanterns which seems to be the other "advantage" of the programmable turnout decoders.

I have damaged two Märklin 74460 or 74461? turnout decoders so those work only in one direction 8send signal to move turnout motor). But those got damaged by my own fault as the turnout motor was jamming and I didn´t notice it. So I damaged two in a row... Cursing

Please report what was wrong when you find the cause. RollEyes

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Marklin in Oz  
#10 Posted : 01 September 2014 10:04:40(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
The answer for the polarity is yes. As for the correct digital address... I think so. I've got the DIP switch set to #5 (Which in DIP terms is 3 & 5 in the "on" position). I've read some about programing these things (As in a CS2 and a programing track) but have never done such a thing.

I'm definitely to the point I'm never buying one of these again. I'll stick with 74460 from now on.
-Fred
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 01 September 2014 12:06:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Marklin in Oz Go to Quoted Post
I've got the DIP switch set to #5 (Which in DIP terms is 3 & 5 in the "on" position).
3 and 5 on is turnout address 20.
#5 would be 1 and 3 on.

See manual (copy URL, linking is not allowed):
Code:
http://medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/74461_betrieb.pdf

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline PJMärklin  
#12 Posted : 01 September 2014 13:36:38(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The failure mechanism in the motors seems to be in the end shut-off contacts. They get oxidised and don't allow the current to get to the coil.

I have kept some of mine alive by dribbling some oil or WD40 into the motor. This cleans the surface of the contacts and allows the switch to work for a while.

Of my 12 solenoids in use, four exhibit this fault, and two others seem reluctant to flick the points over, as if they were not strong enough, but this could be due to excessive friction in the turnout mechanism.

I have had less problems with the newer version than with the old.


Hello Ray,

You are quite correct!
It is the little copper contacts that are raised and lowered to break, then complete the circuit as the electromagnet ferrous rod slides back and forth that fails.

UserPostedImage

In all the variants that marklin has made over the years this has been a constant and vulnerable element.
2 decades ago I used to try and bend the copper strips for more firm contact, but as you say, the reason is not physical contact but electrical contact due to oxidisation of the Cu.
If blowing compressed air about the contact region doesn't help, I use some electrical contact cleaner such as :

UserPostedImage


Regards,

PJ
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Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 01 September 2014 13:50:37(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks PJ,

My biggest headache is with the C Track point motors mounted in turnouts which are permanently installed on the layout. It's not easy to get access to the motors without carving out chunks of ballast and scenery.

I discovered that if I dribble a bit of Marklin oil or WD40 into the turnout from above some of it gets to the switch contacts and restores electrical contact.

If I get the chance to remove the track from the layout in the future I will modify the motors to bypass the switches. I will, of course, have to be careful after that not to leave the motor energised accidentally as it would overheat and fail.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Marklin in Oz  
#14 Posted : 01 September 2014 14:05:28(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Well, I thought Tom had nailed it. The DIP switch was in fact set wrong. However, even after setting it correctly, still nothing. So on the one hand this is good, this is what trouble shooting is for, on the other hand I'm pouding my face on the wall.

Thank you Tom, nice catch.
-Fred
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 01 September 2014 15:02:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Fred,
Did you read the review here:
https://www.marklin-user...5-cousin.aspx#post382576

Using DCC you should be able to read CVs from the decoder - another way to get some feedback from the decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline sudhir36  
#16 Posted : 02 September 2014 01:58:57(UTC)
sudhir36

United States   
Joined: 06/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Richmond
Hello Fred,

We were having this conversation on the marklin-users. net facebook page, in which I suggested you to switch the decoder to the main line. I mean install the decoder on the three prongs that is meant for the decoder.

So I decided to give a try using the same turnout as you are using in the above picture.

I am using 60653 Mobile Station MS2 and I have set the decoder address to 1. Attached are the pictures of the installed 74491 in conjunction with 74461.

The turnout works fine even with a locomotive on the track.

Regards,

Nakul
sudhir36 attached the following image(s):
Random 001.jpg
Random 002.jpg
Random 003.jpg
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Offline Marklin in Oz  
#17 Posted : 02 September 2014 09:45:52(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Fred,
Did you read the review here:
https://www.marklin-user...5-cousin.aspx#post382576

Using DCC you should be able to read CVs from the decoder - another way to get some feedback from the decoder.


I read that yes. Seems I have a lower opinion of 74461 than even the author. Wink The DCC setting won't do me any good as I'm running with MM. I set the 10th pin to "on" for the hell of it, to see what it would do... nothing of course. I'm begining to think I might just have a bad part,
-Fred

Offline Marklin in Oz  
#18 Posted : 02 September 2014 09:49:53(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
Originally Posted by: sudhir36 Go to Quoted Post
Hello Fred,

We were having this conversation on the marklin-users. net facebook page, in which I suggested you to switch the decoder to the main line. I mean install the decoder on the three prongs that is meant for the decoder.

So I decided to give a try using the same turnout as you are using in the above picture.

I am using 60653 Mobile Station MS2 and I have set the decoder address to 1. Attached are the pictures of the installed 74491 in conjunction with 74461.

The turnout works fine even with a locomotive on the track.

Regards,

Nakul


The original photo in my thread here is from about a week ago. After you and I spoke, I adjusted the set up as you suggested and pictured. No good. At this point, I'm simply not buying one of these again... but still need to get this one hashed out. Perhaps I'll trying setting the DIP switch to one as you have and try it that way.
Confused
-Fred

Offline Marklin in Oz  
#19 Posted : 04 September 2014 23:28:18(UTC)
Marklin in Oz

United States   
Joined: 24/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Lawrence Kansas
I saw my dealer today and the long of the short of it, simply put, the decoder was bad. I have a new one that works just fine (When set to the correct address per Tom).

Thank you for your help everyone. ThumpUp Now I can start putting down ballast.
-Fred
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