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Offline jrbburg  
#1 Posted : 31 August 2014 22:59:26(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
Hello,

I have inherited a CCS800 and I think it is Version 4. All opinions very welcome. It also has zinc pest. Is the best thing to get it mended or does that destroy value? Is it possible to get parts? Please see the images below.

Many thanks.
jrbburg attached the following image(s):
CCS800-1.JPG
CCS800-2.JPG
CCS800-3.JPG
CCS800-4.JPG
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Offline Tiki734  
#2 Posted : 01 September 2014 06:35:59(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth
Hi
Yes you can get some parts from a company called Ritter in Germany. To me it looks in pretty good condition apart from the bogies and wheels. I just had a quick look and for the wheels he charges 110 Euros. That is obviously unfitted. If you sent it to Ritter it would be expensive but you've got a quite rare model. It depends on what you want to do with it. If you do not intend to run then I would spend nothing. If you do not have any interest in Marklin then I would sell as it will only deteriate in the future.
Roger
Offline jrbburg  
#3 Posted : 01 September 2014 10:29:40(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
Many thanks Roger.

Yes I've been in touch with Ritter and they've been very helpful. I wanted to seek other opinions as they are quoting €1,500 to put it right. That sounds a lot to me and presumably it won't be 'original' then so presumably impacting the value. I was wondering if early CCS800's come up that can be used for parts? I guess not as I understand that the major problem is zinc pest so they most likely will be suffering from the same ailments.

I intend to keep it as there is quite an extensive 1950's set most of which is in excellent condition. Once I have some space I intend to expand it.

James

Offline Tiki734  
#4 Posted : 01 September 2014 13:29:13(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth
James
The 1500 Euros does not surprise me. I have had locos restored by Ritter in the past and even although he does a fantastic job he will only replace parts with what he makes and may not be right for the version. Unfortunately you will never get the cost back and a real value may be 1500 Euros. Who knows as you can see some crazy numbers being paid. I would far rather pay a little bit more for a complete model rather than think I'm getting a bargain and then buying spare parts. You will find that the CCS does not come up very often in the useful spares category and cheap.
Roger
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Offline jvuye  
#5 Posted : 01 September 2014 14:39:51(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Tiki734 Go to Quoted Post
James
The 1500 Euros does not surprise me. I have had locos restored by Ritter in the past and even although he does a fantastic job he will only replace parts with what he makes and may not be right for the version. Unfortunately you will never get the cost back and a real value may be 1500 Euros. Who knows as you can see some crazy numbers being paid. I would far rather pay a little bit more for a complete model rather than think I'm getting a bargain and then buying spare parts. You will find that the CCS does not come up very often in the useful spares category and cheap.
Roger


I certainly second this opinion!
I have repaired quite a few of these loks myself, often using replacements parts from Ritter.
Let me warn you, this is no trivial exercise to undertake if you have never done it before!
One of the things you have to know is that the Ritter replacement chassis are made of a material (with lower fusion temperature) that presents a different shrink factor from the original Zamac.
As a consequence , the different holes, threads and fixtures are not **exactly** on the perfectly right spot.
In some cases it won't matter, but often this will lead to gears meshing either too little (disengage..) or too much (bending...) and driving axles getting out of sync.
The material is also relatively soft, so multiple assemblies/disassemblies are not advised.
It is therefore possible you may have to buy a second set of parts..
Having Ritter doing the whole job is transferring the responsibilty on them, and that should be a big relief.
I can vouch for the quality of their service and their craftsmanship.
I have visited their shop in Nürtingen several times, and all I can say is that it is a *serious* business.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline jrbburg  
#6 Posted : 05 September 2014 10:42:55(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
OK thank you very much.

What about the value once they've done the work? Presumably it's hit pretty hard and maybe less than €1500?
Offline jvuye  
#7 Posted : 05 September 2014 14:57:44(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: jrbburg Go to Quoted Post
OK thank you very much.

What about the value once they've done the work? Presumably it's hit pretty hard and maybe less than €1500?


I wouldn't say **that** low!
I haven't followed sales on eBay recently,(others may venture a better estimate?) but I'd say at least € 3000, especially because the rest of it looks pretty good and you have the original box w/ wooden insert.
These loks have gone in the €6000 some times ago, and I have a hrad time believing **any of them** was 100% original.
In 40 years of collecting and renovating I still have to see one **without** any Zinkpest...
I don't want to blow up your expectations, but I feel you can safely expect it would fetch **way** more than €1500!!
Opinions anyone?
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Janne75  
#8 Posted : 05 September 2014 20:05:56(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi James,

As your CCS 800 has rectangular lamp "bars" and not round ones it raises the price very much. I just wonder why this one has those type 5 pantographs and not the "correct" type 4.1? Maybe someone has changed them later? Those parts are quite easy to get (type 4.1 pantographs). Even I have two new original ones. I don't own CCS 800, but maybe one day...

Which kind of current pick-up there is under this loco? Is it the round "swamp" style or the later type? Is the zincpest bad or just some of it? Has it any cracked parts in it's frame or other parts?

The "wrong" things I can only see are those too new version pantographs and the wrong color wheels (the red ones). It should be cheap to get the wheels, but if the frame has cracks it is not.

Just my thoughts about this beautiful old CCS 800 RollEyes . Jacques or others can correct me if I'm wrong about the pantographs. I have never seen before a combo of those rectangular lamp "bars" and type 5 pantographs in the same CCS 800.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline jrbburg  
#9 Posted : 05 September 2014 20:37:04(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jrbburg Go to Quoted Post
OK thank you very much.

What about the value once they've done the work? Presumably it's hit pretty hard and maybe less than €1500?


I wouldn't say **that** low!
I haven't followed sales on eBay recently,(others may venture a better estimate?) but I'd say at least € 3000, especially because the rest of it looks pretty good and you have the original box w/ wooden insert.
These loks have gone in the €6000 some times ago, and I have a hrad time believing **any of them** was 100% original.
In 40 years of collecting and renovating I still have to see one **without** any Zinkpest...
I don't want to blow up your expectations, but I feel you can safely expect it would fetch **way** more than €1500!!
Opinions anyone?


That's very helpful, thank you.

James
Offline jrbburg  
#10 Posted : 05 September 2014 20:47:43(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi James,

As your CCS 800 has rectangular lamp "bars" and not round ones it raises the price very much. I just wonder why this one has those type 5 pantographs and not the "correct" type 4.1? Maybe someone has changed them later? Those parts are quite easy to get (type 4.1 pantographs). Even I have two new original ones. I don't own CCS 800, but maybe one day...

Which kind of current pick-up there is under this loco? Is it the round "swamp" style or the later type? Is the zincpest bad or just some of it? Has it any cracked parts in it's frame or other parts?

The "wrong" things I can only see are those too new version pantographs and the wrong color wheels (the red ones). It should be cheap to get the wheels, but if the frame has cracks it is not.

Just my thoughts about this beautiful old CCS 800 RollEyes . Jacques or others can correct me if I'm wrong about the pantographs. I have never seen before a combo of those rectangular lamp "bars" and type 5 pantographs in the same CCS 800.

Regards,
Janne


Thank you very much that's just what I was looking for.

James
Offline Tiki734  
#11 Posted : 06 September 2014 02:57:15(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth
James
I keep a pretty good look at what things are selling for and I've just had a look at the German market and what sells for 5000 Euros and more and there's not much. In my opinion if you sold the loco as is you might get 1500 Euros. If you spent 1500 Euros you might still get a little more up to 2000 at a stretch. This would be items in Germany not in the US sold in Germany. I believe if you sold it in the US you might get as much as 1500US$. Auctions are a not reliable as it depends on the buyers on the day. One think for sure is that realised prices are going down which further decreases the market dropping prices further. The market needs to get an increase in the number of buyers or collectors which is not happening as the younger generation are only interested in social media. That's my theory for what it's worth.
Roger
Offline Janne75  
#12 Posted : 06 September 2014 09:06:54(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi again,

If this CCS 800 would be mine I would not sell it for 1500 euro. Buy the correct wheels and replace the red ones with black. Then try to find the correct type 4.1 pantographs. You could maybe use some repro pantographs as they look almost the same as originals. As you have the original box and the wooden inserts it raises it's value. But as it has those older type rectangular lamp bars it is definitely worth more money than just 1500 euro. I would say at least 2500-3500 euro when everything is fixed.

I would not send it to Ritter and pay them high price for renovation. In my opinion it is best to not repaint it. Just keep it as it is because it looks to be in pretty good shape for it's age. Many collectors think it has more value when it has still the original paint. I think there are basically four category for these older items:

1. Top mint original paint like new are the most expensive ones, but many are fakes.

2. Original in a little used condition with minor paint defects. (Like your CCS 800!)

3. Renovated = repainted by Ritter for example.

4. Too worn played ones. Even some very old locos in this condition could be better than repainted ones as they are still original. It depends of the model and the condition.


So my advice. Buy the needed parts and fix it yourself. Save big money and keep the paint as it is. Keep it yourself and if you don't want to have it please don't sell it for under 2500 euro... RollEyes It's worth more.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline jrbburg  
#13 Posted : 06 September 2014 09:52:58(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by: Tiki734 Go to Quoted Post
James
I keep a pretty good look at what things are selling for and I've just had a look at the German market and what sells for 5000 Euros and more and there's not much. In my opinion if you sold the loco as is you might get 1500 Euros. If you spent 1500 Euros you might still get a little more up to 2000 at a stretch. This would be items in Germany not in the US sold in Germany. I believe if you sold it in the US you might get as much as 1500US$. Auctions are a not reliable as it depends on the buyers on the day. One think for sure is that realised prices are going down which further decreases the market dropping prices further. The market needs to get an increase in the number of buyers or collectors which is not happening as the younger generation are only interested in social media. That's my theory for what it's worth.
Roger


Hi Roger,

That's a bit depressing! I also tend to agree and looking at prices being paid I fear that Ritter will be taking all the value (and I have no doubt they will do a good and thorough job) but I'm trying to work out if mending it it rational.

There is some sentimental value and I'd like to get the thing working. What I'm trying to work out is how much will I be spending on sentiment.

Thanks for your help.

James
Offline jrbburg  
#14 Posted : 06 September 2014 10:07:42(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi again,

If this CCS 800 would be mine I would not sell it for 1500 euro. Buy the correct wheels and replace the red ones with black. Then try to find the correct type 4.1 pantographs. You could maybe use some repro pantographs as they look almost the same as originals. As you have the original box and the wooden inserts it raises it's value. But as it has those older type rectangular lamp bars it is definitely worth more money than just 1500 euro. I would say at least 2500-3500 euro when everything is fixed.

I would not send it to Ritter and pay them high price for renovation. In my opinion it is best to not repaint it. Just keep it as it is because it looks to be in pretty good shape for it's age. Many collectors think it has more value when it has still the original paint. I think there are basically four category for these older items:

1. Top mint original paint like new are the most expensive ones, but many are fakes.

2. Original in a little used condition with minor paint defects. (Like your CCS 800!)

3. Renovated = repainted by Ritter for example.

4. Too worn played ones. Even some very old locos in this condition could be better than repainted ones as they are still original. It depends of the model and the condition.


So my advice. Buy the needed parts and fix it yourself. Save big money and keep the paint as it is. Keep it yourself and if you don't want to have it please don't sell it for under 2500 euro... RollEyes It's worth more.

Regards,
Janne



Janne,

It had never occurred to me that Ritter would re-paint it. I very much hope not. The big problem with this CCS800 is the zinc pest is so bad that all the wheels fall out one end. You can't see that in the photos.

I agree with you that the red wheels need replacing and the pantographs too. I'm not competent enough to do the zinc pest areas (the advice above is that this is a very specialist area to get right - cog slippage etc) so that's for Ritter.

As per my reply to Roger above I'm trying to get a handle on where the market is for a restored CCS v4 is which has had its undercarriage restored by Ritter and try to keep everything else original (no painting etc). I don't intend to sell it and I'd like to see it moving. Essentially I'm trying to see how much I'm paying for my sentimentality.

By the way would it be very stupid to digitise it? I intend to build a track (one day..) and I'd like it to be digital. However, I imagine it's best to leave the 1950s locos analogue and have a separate analogue area of the track? Let's say I did put a chip in is that crazy? I could always reverse it one day if necessary. Or just leave it as is once restored?

Many thanks for your input, it's very helpful.

James
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Offline Tiki734  
#15 Posted : 06 September 2014 10:48:54(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth
James
I think the value of the engine is quite unimportant. It sounds like you want to have it running. I would agree if the bodies are free from ZP then absolutely keep it original. You should be able to pick up the correct panagraphs quite easily. If the chassis are warped then you will have to buy new plus new wheels etc. I believe that Ritter is one of the options and it will probably be still 1500 Euros without paint. Another option may be sell your current one and buy a better condition one cheaper which does not need restoration. Once you add in postage and insurance plus German taxes it is starting to get cost prohibitive. However if money is no object then get it restored and running.
I would personally not digitise.
Roger
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Offline Janne75  
#16 Posted : 06 September 2014 21:07:23(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi James,

I would keep it analog as it deserves that in my opinion. I'm glad to hear that it will not be re-painted. If the frames are free from ZP and it has that only on the wheels, then it is quite easy to get it done. From Ritter the prices for the parts are not so high and definitely not near a total of 1500 euro. They cost some hundred euros. See here: Ritter CCS 800 parts

PS. I'm still interested in knowing what kind of current pick-ups this CCS 800 has?

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline jrbburg  
#17 Posted : 07 September 2014 12:04:39(UTC)
jrbburg

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi James,

I would keep it analog as it deserves that in my opinion. I'm glad to hear that it will not be re-painted. If the frames are free from ZP and it has that only on the wheels, then it is quite easy to get it done. From Ritter the prices for the parts are not so high and definitely not near a total of 1500 euro. They cost some hundred euros. See here: Ritter CCS 800 parts

PS. I'm still interested in knowing what kind of current pick-ups this CCS 800 has?

Regards,
Janne


Hi Janne
The body of the CCS800 is zinc pest free but the big mounting blocks for the wheels have quite bad zinc pest - to the point that the wheels fall out of it one half. The wheels themselves are fine.
The pick ups are the round bullet style pick ups.
Offline Janne75  
#18 Posted : 07 September 2014 14:10:49(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi James,

I don't have any experience about those Ritter repro frames myself, but those are at least zinc pest free. If Ritter would fix this one then I suppose they would use these same parts. They are 90 euro each. As you have the correct type of current pick ups this is definitely the fourth version. In the next fifth version there are those type 5 pantographs like in your CCS 800. Your is from the year 1949. I just think if it could be possible that this one is some of the last of fourth versions and Märklin started to use those type 5 pantographs just before the first of the fifth versions came available. This could explain why this one has the "wrong" next versions pantographs. I would anyway buy the "correct" type 4.1 older version pantographs to get the collector value higher.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline MalinAC  
#19 Posted : 17 September 2014 08:52:53(UTC)
MalinAC

Ireland   
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH
Hi guys ,I have a chance to get a CCS800 version 6 from late 56 with no no zinc pest and with good box . The paint has started to go. It came from Georgia in USA and was in the dealers window hense thebad paint. As far as I can tell everything looks good. What would be a realistic price for this. Thanks and take care Eddie .
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