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Offline Drongo  
#1 Posted : 29 August 2014 08:19:45(UTC)
Drongo

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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Suddenly my CS2 is only outputting 7 volts to my programming track. Cursing Cursing Cursing

Does anyone have any ideas what could be the problem?

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 29 August 2014 08:48:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Suddenly my CS2 is only outputting 7 volts to my programming track.
Is this the value the CS2 shows on the information screen?
If not, the problem could be using an inappropriate volt meter (without True RMS function).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Drongo  
#3 Posted : 29 August 2014 09:58:07(UTC)
Drongo

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Suddenly my CS2 is only outputting 7 volts to my programming track.
Is this the value the CS2 shows on the information screen?
If not, the problem could be using an inappropriate volt meter (without True RMS function).



Hi Tom,
The CS2 info shows Voltage at 18.7 with main track at 0.54 amps and Prog track at .025 amps. There isn't a separate voltage for each track - just a single voltage reading, so I assume that the voltage is the same for each track - is this correct?

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 29 August 2014 11:29:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
It's not unusual for simple volt meters (without True RMS) to show around 10 V one way and around 30 V the other way (red and black swapped).
You'll get more useful results with a rectifier using the voltage meter in DC mode.

You should get similar results for both main and programming track. Big differences between main and programming track could indicate a problem.

Other signs of a problem? Do locos have dim lights on the programming track? Sound not working?

Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
There isn't a separate voltage for each track
Blushing
Would be useful now. Maybe they measure the voltage at a point that is common for main track and programming track (i.e. before the final output stage).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Drongo  
#5 Posted : 29 August 2014 12:41:53(UTC)
Drongo

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Location: Sydney, NSW
Lights are bright and the sounds work.

Maybe one of those things. Thanks for the help Tom.

Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline Drongo  
#6 Posted : 02 September 2014 08:17:21(UTC)
Drongo

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Location: Sydney, NSW
The problem resolved itself. Confused Confused Confused Confused

Now I have another problem and this one is really strange.

I have a CS2 and 3 boosters on my layout. Everything has been working well until last week - the previous problem and now this. The turnouts all have marklin motors and decoders and all have worked reasonable well, except for the odd motor. The CS2 powers to one particular section and the turnouts in this section will not work using the keyboard. There is power in the section as the trains will operate as normal.

Anyone have any ideas?
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline Drongo  
#7 Posted : 03 September 2014 05:38:58(UTC)
Drongo

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Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
I've found out why the turnouts won't work with the CS2 - the wires connecting the CS2 to the track were around the wrong way. However, this leads to another problem. The Marklin instruction shows that the red wire (the Active) is on the right and the neutral (brown wire) on the left. When the turnouts work the wires are in reverse to this instruction.

Can someone shed show light on this please?

Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 03 September 2014 07:44:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
No other big company makes manuals so well like Märklin.
Trust the inscription on the CS2, don't trust the manual (I think you can find a corrected manual as PDF for download).

To confuse people, the plug configuration is different on the CS2 versus the CS1. To confuse people even more the manuals initially showed it wrong.

Many users pull the plug out of their CS1, put it into the CS2 - and find the turnouts no longer work.Cursing

Murphy's law basically is "if polarity matters use asymmetric plugs". Sometimes it's not enough to use asymmetric plugs, you also have to use your brain and double-check every step (quality assurance).Wink

I'm sorry for the rant against Märklin. Error in the manual. Shouldn't happen, but can happen.ThumpUp Still a bad idea to reverse the plug configuration on the CS2 versus the CS1.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#9 Posted : 03 September 2014 09:28:43(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Views messages in topic : 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
No other big company makes manuals so well like Märklin.
Trust the inscription on the CS2, don't trust the manual (I think you can find a corrected manual as PDF for download).

To confuse people, the plug configuration is different on the CS2 versus the CS1. To confuse people even more the manuals initially showed it wrong.

Many users pull the plug out of their CS1, put it into the CS2 - and find the turnouts no longer work.Cursing

Murphy's law basically is "if polarity matters use asymmetric plugs". Sometimes it's not enough to use asymmetric plugs, you also have to use your brain and double-check every step (quality assurance).Wink

I'm sorry for the rant against Märklin. Error in the manual. Shouldn't happen, but can happen.ThumpUp Still a bad idea to reverse the plug configuration on the CS2 versus the CS1.


Märklin should have follow same style with plug in(wires) system like CU6021.
No mistakes there! Laugh
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Drongo  
#10 Posted : 03 September 2014 09:46:26(UTC)
Drongo

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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Yes, I totally agree with you Tom regarding the manuals etc. However, I'm totally confused. I thought I'd try and test the CS2 with a multimeter (a cheap one) but I'm not having any success. I turned the multimeter to AC (the sine curve) side at 200V - put the black connector into the earth socket of the household power supply, and put the red connector to each of the 2 pins of the CS2. The result was that both shows approximately 75 volts. I thought one would show something and the other would be zero. What am I doing wrong?
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 03 September 2014 10:56:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
The result was that both shows approximately 75 volts. I thought one would show something and the other would be zero. What am I doing wrong?
If I understand you correctly then both should show 0 as the output stage of the power supply should have galvanic insulation from the input side (the power supply is not earthed).

It was discussed before that about 75 or 80 V can be seen at the output stage of the power supply versus ground (earth). Amps and wattage should be very low and this should not do any harm.

With the CU 6021 the "brown" went through from transformer to the track - but even the transformers recommended for the CU 6021 are not earthed.
With CS1 or CS2 there is no common "brown" between input and output.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Drongo  
#12 Posted : 03 September 2014 11:13:22(UTC)
Drongo

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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
The result was that both shows approximately 75 volts. I thought one would show something and the other would be zero. What am I doing wrong?
If I understand you correctly then both should show 0 as the output stage of the power supply should have galvanic insulation from the input side (the power supply is not earthed).

It was discussed before that about 75 or 80 V can be seen at the output stage of the power supply versus ground (earth). Amps and wattage should be very low and this should not do any harm.

With the CU 6021 the "brown" went through from transformer to the track - but even the transformers recommended for the CU 6021 are not earthed.
With CS1 or CS2 there is no common "brown" between input and output.


Sorry Tom, I'm a bit thick - I don't understand. From my basic understanding of AC electricity - one pin is active and the other pin is the neutral(return). Therefore, the active pin will show some voltage and the neutral pin no voltage. Or is this too simplified and life isn't that easy?
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 03 September 2014 12:15:19(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I totally agree with you Tom regarding the manuals etc. However, I'm totally confused. I thought I'd try and test the CS2 with a multimeter (a cheap one) but I'm not having any success. I turned the multimeter to AC (the sine curve) side at 200V - put the black connector into the earth socket of the household power supply, and put the red connector to each of the 2 pins of the CS2. The result was that both shows approximately 75 volts. I thought one would show something and the other would be zero. What am I doing wrong?


What you are 'doing wrong' is putting the black lead to the wrong place. The output of the CS2 is totally isolated from the mains earth through a process known as 'double Insulation' which is signified by the double square box (one square box inside another square box). This requires the insulation between the mains side and the output side to be 'extra thick' (for want of a better expression) to ensure that there can be no break down between the primary and secondary sides. I believe it is this requirement that is being violated with cheap cell phone chargers that are giving people electric shocks.

Now because of the 'double insulation' there is now no requirement to run an earth wire back to the mains socket, so only a two core cable is used with mains and neutral connections. However this means that it is not possible to have a grounded shield between the primary side and the secondary side of the transformer. As this is missing there is a capacitance between the primary and secondary side that allows a very tiny current to flow if the secondary side is grounded as you are doing with your multimeter. This current through the meter produces the indication you are seeing.

You can feel this current. One way to do so is for someone to be in bed with an electric blanket plugged in and turned on. Now if you are not in the bed, but gently brush the back of your hand against that person you will feel a tiny tingle from this capacitive coupled current. You have enough capacitance to ground to complete the circuit, and the person in bed has enough capacitance to the heating wires in the blanket for a large enough current to flow to cause you to feel a tingle at the point of highest resistance contact where you touch them. If you make solid contact with them you will feel nothing.

You see the same voltage at both output pins as there is a relatively low resistance between the pins compared to the reactive resistance of the capacitance, so you measure the same current from either pin.

Your power supply and CS2 are both perfectly safe to use.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Drongo  
#14 Posted : 03 September 2014 12:56:01(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I totally agree with you Tom regarding the manuals etc. However, I'm totally confused. I thought I'd try and test the CS2 with a multimeter (a cheap one) but I'm not having any success. I turned the multimeter to AC (the sine curve) side at 200V - put the black connector into the earth socket of the household power supply, and put the red connector to each of the 2 pins of the CS2. The result was that both shows approximately 75 volts. I thought one would show something and the other would be zero. What am I doing wrong?


What you are 'doing wrong' is putting the black lead to the wrong place. The output of the CS2 is totally isolated from the mains earth through a process known as 'double Insulation' which is signified by the double square box (one square box inside another square box). This requires the insulation between the mains side and the output side to be 'extra thick' (for want of a better expression) to ensure that there can be no break down between the primary and secondary sides. I believe it is this requirement that is being violated with cheap cell phone chargers that are giving people electric shocks.

Now because of the 'double insulation' there is now no requirement to run an earth wire back to the mains socket, so only a two core cable is used with mains and neutral connections. However this means that it is not possible to have a grounded shield between the primary side and the secondary side of the transformer. As this is missing there is a capacitance between the primary and secondary side that allows a very tiny current to flow if the secondary side is grounded as you are doing with your multimeter. This current through the meter produces the indication you are seeing.

You can feel this current. One way to do so is for someone to be in bed with an electric blanket plugged in and turned on. Now if you are not in the bed, but gently brush the back of your hand against that person you will feel a tiny tingle from this capacitive coupled current. You have enough capacitance to ground to complete the circuit, and the person in bed has enough capacitance to the heating wires in the blanket for a large enough current to flow to cause you to feel a tingle at the point of highest resistance contact where you touch them. If you make solid contact with them you will feel nothing.

You see the same voltage at both output pins as there is a relatively low resistance between the pins compared to the reactive resistance of the capacitance, so you measure the same current from either pin.

Your power supply and CS2 are both perfectly safe to use.




Thanks Kiwialan for the info. That explains why I'm getting the readings, however, how can I identify for certain which pin is the active?
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 03 September 2014 13:41:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
however, how can I identify for certain which pin is the active?
Trust the inscription on your CS2.
0 is ground and goes to outer rail, B is active and goes to centre rail.

If turnout decoders work then everything will be fine.

The digital signal is asymmetric and turnout decoders fail if wires are swapped. But you cannot tell this with a volt meter.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Drongo  
#16 Posted : 03 September 2014 15:17:29(UTC)
Drongo

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Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks Tom. I understand now.
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline Drongo  
#17 Posted : 04 September 2014 07:10:07(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Ok, now Murphy is back. Angry Angry Angry

I've rewired and checked all the boosters and CS2's to see that the red wire goes to the "B" and the brown wire goes to the "O". The original problem has returned i.e. the turnouts in one section won't work. So I thought I'd reverse the wires for this section - they still didn't work.

What's wrong?
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 04 September 2014 12:48:56(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Ok, now Murphy is back. Angry Angry Angry

I've rewired and checked all the boosters and CS2's to see that the red wire goes to the "B" and the brown wire goes to the "O". The original problem has returned i.e. the turnouts in one section won't work. So I thought I'd reverse the wires for this section - they still didn't work.

What's wrong?


In that section you have put the turnouts in with the red wire to the rails instead of the studs?

Although you say you reversed the connections to that section Bored. Did that section ever work the turnouts?

Offline Drongo  
#19 Posted : 04 September 2014 13:03:57(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Ok, now Murphy is back. Angry Angry Angry

I've rewired and checked all the boosters and CS2's to see that the red wire goes to the "B" and the brown wire goes to the "O". The original problem has returned i.e. the turnouts in one section won't work. So I thought I'd reverse the wires for this section - they still didn't work.

What's wrong?


In that section you have put the turnouts in with the red wire to the rails instead of the studs?

Although you say you reversed the connections to that section Bored. Did that section ever work the turnouts?



Yes they used to work. I've got a spare booster and I've connected that up and the same result. So they don't work with either the booster or the slave CS2, even with the wires reversed.
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 04 September 2014 13:43:33(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Ok, now Murphy is back. Angry Angry Angry

I've rewired and checked all the boosters and CS2's to see that the red wire goes to the "B" and the brown wire goes to the "O". The original problem has returned i.e. the turnouts in one section won't work. So I thought I'd reverse the wires for this section - they still didn't work.

What's wrong?


In that section you have put the turnouts in with the red wire to the rails instead of the studs?

Although you say you reversed the connections to that section Bored. Did that section ever work the turnouts?



Yes they used to work. I've got a spare booster and I've connected that up and the same result. So they don't work with either the booster or the slave CS2, even with the wires reversed.


But the trains run on that section happily ?
Offline Drongo  
#21 Posted : 04 September 2014 14:01:41(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Ok, now Murphy is back. Angry Angry Angry

I've rewired and checked all the boosters and CS2's to see that the red wire goes to the "B" and the brown wire goes to the "O". The original problem has returned i.e. the turnouts in one section won't work. So I thought I'd reverse the wires for this section - they still didn't work.

What's wrong?


In that section you have put the turnouts in with the red wire to the rails instead of the studs?

Although you say you reversed the connections to that section Bored. Did that section ever work the turnouts?



Yes they used to work. I've got a spare booster and I've connected that up and the same result. So they don't work with either the booster or the slave CS2, even with the wires reversed.


But the trains run on that section happily ?


Yes the trains run well.

I took a turnout from another section of the layout - one that is working - and connected it to the problem section - it didn't work. So I connected it to the programming track and it worked. Why won't it work in the bad sector?
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline Drongo  
#22 Posted : 05 September 2014 09:26:38(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Finally with the help of my friend Ross, I was able to resolve the problem. Laugh Laugh Laugh

FYI - the problem was a combination of having the power supply wires reversed, as I followed Marklin's incorrect documentation, and the insolation of the rails for TrainContoller. The neutral wires for both systems were using the same rail and this caused the current not to flow correctly. All in all, the layout is now working and now we can concentrate on developing TrainController - at Last. Love Love Love

Thanks to everyone with your assistance - it really helped me to hone in on where to look for the problem.

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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