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Offline BrandonVA  
#1 Posted : 20 August 2014 16:32:47(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
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***Edited 08.22.2014 to update digital function information***

Short review:

This is a really great locomotive set, runs and pulls well, great sound/lighting and good detail. I would recommend it, and would not hesitate to buy other MTH 3E+ locomotive.

Long review:

This is a review for my new MTH 3e+ Denver and Rio Grande Western (D&RGW) "California Zephyr" EMD F3 A-B Locomotive Set. The part number is 8021975 (80-2197-5). I purchased these from Euro Model Trains (http://www.euromodeltrains.com) who I would also recommend.

Terminology:

3e+ is MTH's new line of three-rail H0 locomotives for Marklin track. The operate on analog AC, MM or DCC (more details on operation below).

Prototype History:

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When D&RGW first started California Zephyr service, they originally purchased two Alco PA-1 A-B-A sets to run as motive power due to a dispute with EMD regarding power ratings (CB&Q and WP purchased F units from the start). Soon after, the dispute was resolved, as Rio Grande Purchased three A-B-B-A EMD F3 sets to run the California Zephyr. These were the only F3 units purchased by D&RGW. MTH has chosen the later (and perhaps most famous) "Prospector" yellow with single black stripe livery used in these units in the later 1950s through the 1960s. The two prototype, road number 5524 & 5523, were build in 1946 and used by D&RGW until traded in for GP40s in 1966.

Packaging & Documentation:

MTH packages these in two semi-generic boxes that are banded together with an outer cardboard sleve, thus making it a set. Inside the boxes are plastic inserts somewhat like those used by Marklin in modern times that fold open to let the loco out. The overall packaging protects the locos well. The cardboard is a thinner grade (than standard Marklin) and is pretty middle of the road. The included documentation is very general. As others have suggested in reviews, MTH recommends you download the manual from their website. The manual for this model was easily available and fairly straightforward.

Detailing, construction and paint:

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My first impression was "wow". The detailing is very good. However, they are not super-detailed to the point of being overly delicate, but a bit micro detailed than a Marklin F7 (I do not have the new tooling ATSF Super Chief or SOO Line, so this may no longer be the case, B&O 37618 is my newest F7). They have a metal chassis and plastic shell, which gives them a good heft despite the plastic outer body. The quality of the paint and decals is very sharp, there are no soft lines or finish differences where decals would be placed. My only real complaint about the appearance is the "plow" in the front is cut-out all the way to the bottom (unlike Marklin shells), which makes it look a little less realistic. Both models have NEM sockets and relex style couplers installed (front and rear) from the factory. There are figures installed from the factory inside the cab.

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Both front and rear bogies are powered, with one axle in each boogie receiving traction tires on both wheels. Four extra traction tires are included with each locomotive unit. The bottom bogie covers are removed by popping them off with a small screwdriver, making lubrication easy without opening the entire locomotive. Both A and B units are powered and have sound. There is no "close" draw bar included, so the A and B units sit a little further apart than I would like. I may try to replace it with some kind of NEM draw bar (or close couplers) eventually. However, this does allow for easier handling and also allows for single unit operation (or perhaps running a heater car between the units like the prototype).

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Operation and Digital Functions:

First off, there is a DCC/DCS switch on the bottom. It must be set to DCC for analog operation or operation with a DCC controller. DCS of for MTH's proprietary controller.

This locomotive has 28 digital functions. Many are sounds, but there are also several lighting functions, including headlight, Mars light, marker lights, lighted number boards and a cabin light.

When operating in analog mode, the diesel sounds automatically come on (like the old FX digital F7s from Marklin). The headlights, Mars light, marker lights and cabin light operate automatically. The volume is controlled via a little potentiometer on the bottom of each locomotive. When you initially place hte loco on the track, you must power it for a few seconds so the "super capacitors" can charge. While this is in progress, the locomotive headlight is on. Once complete, the locomotive sound startup sequence begins and the rest of the lighting (Mars light, number boards, etc) come on. In practice, these works pretty well as the sound and lights do not cut off during any power blips. They also seem to allow the locomotive to run on fairly low voltage. Otherwise these operate the same as any other Marklin locomotive under analog control (my test was with 6646 transformers).

I tested this loco with my MS2. I do not have a CS/CS2 to compare. When operating in Digital mode, I found the same thing that Robert (Nielsenr) found: if you let the controller find the loco, it will most likely register it with MM protocol as it searches for that protocol first. If you do it this way, you'll only have four functions. Instead, manually enter it as a DCC loco with the short DCC address provided by MTH (3 in the case of this unit). Both the A and B units have the same address from the factory. When you register with DCC, you get 16 digital functions* on the MS2:

-Headlight/Mars Light
-Bell
-Horn
-Engine Start/Diesel Sound on
-Announcements (more on this in a moment)
-Marker lights/number plate lights
-Volume control
-Front coupler Sound
-Rear Coupler Sound
-Horn 1 (Forward signal)
-Horn 2 (Reverse signal)
-Horn 3 (Grade Crossing Signal)
-F12 (haven't figured out what this does yet)
-F13 Crew discussion sequence 1 (at idle)
-F14 Crew discussion sequence 2 (at idle)
-F15 Crew discussion sequence 3 (at idle)

*Note that when added via DCC, only 13 funcitons will appear. The remaining three are there. Icons can be added to these using the MS2 "change loco" function.

This operations differently than most Marklin locos (not sure if it's DCC or just the MTH decoder). Many of the functions actuate by activating the function more than once. For example, to change the volume you press F6 several times to cycle through the different levels.

I would say that the general sound quality is excellent. Really nice Diesel operation sounds. The diesel reacts to load regulation, and also adds some semi-random operating sounds as newer Marklin steam engines do during operation. There are some interesting sound functions with the variety of horns, etc.

The most interesting sound function is F4, the station announcement. It works in a sequence, each time you hit it it advances to the next part of the sequence. I believe there are five parts, each 20-30 seconds long if you allow them to play out.First, the loco announces it is arriving at the station ("California Zephyr arriving form Chicago on Track one!"), sounds the bell and makes other noises. The next time you push it, the loco stops automatically and plays additional station sounds (baggage handlers, boarding sounds, etc). Push it again, it continues the station sounds, this calls "all aboard!", announces "California Zephyr leaving for Oakland", "Lets get this baggage loaded", etc. The final press will cause the locomotive to resume motion and return to the originally set speed.

My only complaint is it's a little indirect to turn the sound off for silent operation. F23 is supposed to turn the sound off, but is not accessible from the MS2. Therefore, to turn it off one must toggle F6 until the volume is effectively at zero. The loco remembers the volume setting so this is a very minor issue.

The A unit has full sounds described here. The B unit only appears to mark diesel electric motor noises (as would make sense).

The lighting functions are really nice too. The headlights dim automatically when the train stops. The Mars light is great, very noticeable. The headlights and Mars light come on/off with the same function (F0) The number boards are lighted, yet still can be clearly read when the light function is turned off. The marker lights, number plates and cabin light are all controlled by the same function (f5). The cabin light automatically comes on when the locomotive is at a stop, and switches off once underway again.

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Running quality and power:

MTH states these units use a "skew wound five pole motor". Whatever the reason, the motors are very smooth. Acceleration and braking are smooth, operation (with sound off) is near silent. The units are also powerful. Using my standard BrandonBahn torture test I pulled ten 50 foot four axle tin plate box cars and a caboose up a 4% grade around an R1 turn and near the lowest speed setting. The locomotives have no problem doing this. I have not tested, but I suspect that the result would be similar with 30 cars. Between the motors, the decoder load management and the all powered bogies and traction tires, this is an effective puller.

The similarity of the motors must be great as the A and B units run at the exact same speed. They run very well together. Even if you uncouple them and run them a few inches apart, it appears the gap between units never changes. As you may suspect from the previous sentence, the A and B units can be operated independently. I suppose the B unit could run alone (or perhaps powering a dummy A unit?). The locomotive has no problem with R1 curves (as stated by MTH).

However, I did have two track issues running these locos for the first time. Initially I was very disappointed, but once I figured it out it was easy to correct. First, when these locomotives would go over a K track curved turnout on the outer radius, traveling from the branch of the turnout to the merge, they would switch the turnout. After a little testing, i figured out that the plow on the front was actually rubbing on the turnout motor and dragging the manual switch! This would only be an issue with K curved turnouts that use the newest style solenoid motor with the low profile manual switch on the track side. You're probably thinking I should have mounted the motors under the layout! I run the wires slightly under the turnout motor and down through my baseboard
to hide them. This caused the turnout motor to pop up just high enough to be a problem. After adjusting this with an Xacto knife and screwing the motor down with K track screws, the issue no longer happens.

The second issue is that the train would derail going across a standard K track left hand turnout (going toward the turn) in two places on my layout, but nowhere else. No other locomotives have a problem here. However, I do not install screws in every piece of track. I had screwed down the section of track before the turnout itself. I was able to resolve this by adding a screw to the turnout in the standard placement.

These were minor. It is most likely just my layout construction. They were also easy to solve. The locomotives have no problem on double slips, which is where I would normally suspect an issue. Based on the issues, I think these would only be a possible problem with K track. With C track the turnout motors are under the track, and the joints to the turnout are more regulated by the roadbed.

Conclusion:

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This is my first non Marklin locomotive. Initially I was wary, but I'm glad I took the chance. This is a really nice locomotive. Great sound and lighting. Runs and pulls well, operates well under analog or digital control. I would not hesitate to buy another MTH 3E+ locomotive. In fact, I'll have to try and resist the other two units (A and B) they sell separately, or one of the GP35s! I would recommend this locomotive. Thanks for reading this long winded review. I hope it helps.

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Click here for photos (if embedded are not working).

-Brandon

Edited by user 22 August 2014 14:53:35(UTC)  | Reason: Update of digital function information.

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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 20 August 2014 16:49:21(UTC)
H0


You have been a member since:: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Brandon,

excellent review. Thank you very much.

Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
When you register with DCC, you get 13 digital functions on the MS2
You can use 16 functions. The MS2 automatically creates 13 function icons for a new DCC loco. You can change all the icons to useful images.
When you add icons to the three "empty" function keys, they will work also.

And AFAIK you are also able to move functions around - e.g. swap f15 and f23.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jvuye  
#3 Posted : 20 August 2014 19:27:19(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
...
This is my first non Marklin locomotive. Initially I was wary, but I'm glad I took the chance. This is a really nice locomotive. Great sound and lighting. Runs and pulls well, operates well under analog or digital control. I would not hesitate to buy another MTH 3E+ locomotive. In fact, I'll have to try and resist the other two units (A and B) they sell separately, or one of the GP35s! I would recommend this locomotive. Thanks for reading this long winded review. I hope it helps.


I must say this sounds really tempting!
There must be one of these in my future too I guess...you must have tipped the scale!
Thanks Brandon!
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline foumaro  
#4 Posted : 20 August 2014 19:48:20(UTC)
foumaro

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Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Perfect choise.Love LOL ThumpUp Wub
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#5 Posted : 20 August 2014 19:53:18(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
Thanks for the detail! I've been trying to get myself out of the American prototypes, but stuff like this keeps me sucked right back in!
SBB Era 2-5
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Offline Nielsenr  
#6 Posted : 21 August 2014 06:16:07(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Hi Brandon,

Very nice review. I actually have these two units as well as the extra A unit. When I originally bought them, I was told the extra B unit was not available. However, after seeing EMTs email on the MTH locos, EMT is trying to get me the B unit. The A-B-A run very well together.

I have a number of MTH 3 rail HO locos now and I am very pleased with them. They are a great value for the cost.

It took me a while to finally realize I was doing the steps in the wrong order to change the address to a long address. Now that I have it down to doing it correctly, it is very easy. And the locos beep two times to tell you the CV change has been accepted.

Enjoy!!

Robert
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 21 August 2014 08:07:26(UTC)
H0


You have been a member since:: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
And AFAIK you are also able to move functions around - e.g. swap f15 and f23.
I was asked (via PM) how to do this. I dunno, I don't have any MTH locos (yet). Why ask questions that are of general interest and "on topic" via PM?

Danilo did it - like they state in the manual:
https://www.marklin-user...sing-CVs.aspx#post462128
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline foumaro  
#8 Posted : 21 August 2014 10:16:09(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
The only reason that is holding me not to buy yet these perfect locomotives is that they do not have metal shells.What do you think?
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Offline grnwtrs  
#9 Posted : 21 August 2014 17:07:52(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Me too! Also I would like a little time to have all the problems shake out.

I am still waiting to get the CS2. I think Marklin has finally got it right.
The MS2 early version of mine doesn't give me any pleasure.

Regards,
gene

Offline BrandonVA  
#10 Posted : 21 August 2014 18:11:41(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
The only reason that is holding me not to buy yet these perfect locomotives is that they do not have metal shells.What do you think?


Foumaro,

It's still a decently heavy unit. Probably not quiet as heavy as Marklin, bus still a good left. What's your primary reason for wanting metal? Durability? Traction weight? Something else?

-Brandon
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Offline sudhir36  
#11 Posted : 21 August 2014 18:16:05(UTC)
sudhir36

United States   
Joined: 06/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Richmond
Hello Robert,

May I ask how did you accomplish changing CVs in MTH locomotive? The procedure seems complicated in MTH manual.

Thanks,

Nakul
Offline foumaro  
#12 Posted : 21 August 2014 20:29:17(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
The only reason that is holding me not to buy yet these perfect locomotives is that they do not have metal shells.What do you think?


Foumaro,

It's still a decently heavy unit. Probably not quiet as heavy as Marklin, bus still a good left. What's your primary reason for wanting metal? Durability? Traction weight? Something else?

-Brandon


The feeling of metal is important for me when I am buying a locomotive.The traction of the loco is much better too.I do not know if I can find these models in Europe,if I have to buy them from USA the shipping cost will be very high.
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Offline Nielsenr  
#13 Posted : 21 August 2014 21:10:59(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: sudhir36 Go to Quoted Post
Hello Robert,

May I ask how did you accomplish changing CVs in MTH locomotive? The procedure seems complicated in MTH manual.

Thanks,

Nakul


Nakul,

I have responded to you in the "DCC Missing CVs" thread. It seemed a more appropriate place than hijacking this thread.

Robert
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Offline BrandonVA  
#14 Posted : 21 August 2014 21:13:36(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post

The feeling of metal is important for me when I am buying a locomotive.The traction of the loco is much better too.I do not know if I can find these models in Europe,if I have to buy them from USA the shipping cost will be very high.


Foumaro,

It's a plastic loco, but it doesn't feel bad. It's not like the cheap American models (say Tyco) from years ago. I would say it probably feels similar holding in my hand to the new Marklin V160/216 tooling, or perhaps even the older 216 tooling (Marklin 3075). It feels pretty solid, but certainly it is not the same as a Marklin F unit.

As far as pulling power, this AB set pulls better than my either of my ATSF 37622 sets. The weight is very similar. The Marklin probably weighs a little more (subjective, I did not weigh them), but since MTH has more powered axles and also powers both the A and B unit, it is very strong. Pulling power to me seems very similar to the newer Marklin A-B-B sets with two motors IMHO.

I believe Busch is the distributor of MTH in Europe. I have seen some MTH models floating around on Stummi as well.

I won't stop buying Marklin F units, but I will probably buy another MTH loco, if that helps.

-Brandon
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#15 Posted : 22 August 2014 00:16:48(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
The only reason that is holding me not to buy yet these perfect locomotives is that they do not have metal shells.What do you think?


Foumaro,

It's still a decently heavy unit. Probably not quiet as heavy as Marklin, bus still a good left. What's your primary reason for wanting metal? Durability? Traction weight? Something else?

-Brandon


Foumaro is a Heavy Metal loco freak !
Scared

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
hm.jpg
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Offline foumaro  
#16 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:33:28(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
The only reason that is holding me not to buy yet these perfect locomotives is that they do not have metal shells.What do you think?


Foumaro,

It's still a decently heavy unit. Probably not quiet as heavy as Marklin, bus still a good left. What's your primary reason for wanting metal? Durability? Traction weight? Something else?

-Brandon


Foumaro is a Heavy Metal loco freak !
Scared



Yes i am.Woot ThumpUp Razz Sneaky
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Offline BrandonVA  
#17 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:41:43(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post

Foumaro is a Heavy Metal loco freak !
Scared



I wonder what sort of digital sounds a atomic powered train would make?

On the subject of the review:

Tom is correct, you can use 16 functions with MS2. I added the others, it appears F14-16 are (by default) the crew talking to each other about various tasks. "Can you check that compressor? It sounds a little noisy." "Sure thing." "Checks out fine, ready to go?", etc. These appear to only function if the locomotive is at a stop. I should also mention that if the engine sounds are off (engine sitting without pressing F3), no other sounds will come on until the engine sounds are started. I will update the review above to correct the function description. I have not tried to remap a function (such as F23) on the MS2 yet, but I may look into it soon (and will report back).

I have been doing some load testing. It looks like each loco draws 0.1A standing still on the track (0.2 for both combined).. Under normal load it's 0.3-0.4A for both locomotives, and under heavy load 0.4A (I haven't seen 0.5A yet). The lighting is all LED is it has little impact on draw.

-Brandon
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#18 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:58:00(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
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Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post

Foumaro is a Heavy Metal loco freak !
Scared



I wonder what sort of digital sounds a atomic powered train would make?



Like "Sirrrrrr"?

Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
trf.jpg
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Offline Webmaster  
#19 Posted : 22 August 2014 20:33:24(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Please do not post irrelevant stuff in a review topic - reviews are not general discussions but are reviews of one particular model.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 23 August 2014 05:55:26(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
looking at the great pictures you've provided, the handrail ladder doesn't seem to line up with the footstep on the bogy, is this correct and the couplers between the 2 units could they be replaced with short couplings ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline BrandonVA  
#21 Posted : 23 August 2014 06:06:23(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
And AFAIK you are also able to move functions around - e.g. swap f15 and f23.
I was asked (via PM) how to do this. I dunno, I don't have any MTH locos (yet). Why ask questions that are of general interest and "on topic" via PM?

Danilo did it - like they state in the manual:
https://www.marklin-user...sing-CVs.aspx#post462128


It does require the manual.

The locomotive has F7 assigned to front coupler sound and F8 assigned to rear coupler sound by default. These both sound the same to me, so I decided to replace F7 with loco sounds on/off (F23 by default).

Rough procedure:
1.) You need to look up the "low byte" for the function you want to change (being replaced) on a table in the MTH manual. For front coupler/F7, this is "128"
2.) On another table in the manual, you need to look up the function number of the new function you wish to use instead. This is not the same as the F key assignment on the "keyboard" of the DCC controller (such as MS2). In my case, sounds on/of was "8".
3.) On MS2 hold down "shift" and press the loco key. Scroll down through the list to "Program CV". Select "Program CV"
4.) For the first value, enter the value looked up in step #1 (128 here). Click the check icon.
5.) For the second value, enter the value looked up in step #2 (8 here). Click the check icon.
6.) Wait a few seconds to be sure it is applied to the loco (MTH states 5 seconds).
7.) Exit the programming menu by hitting the arrow key on the left side of the MS2.
8.) Verify function is changed. All set.*

*If it goes bad, you follow the directions in the MTH manual to reset the decoder to factory settings. Us the same procedure above, buit with the reset values instead.

-Brandon
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Offline BrandonVA  
#22 Posted : 23 August 2014 06:12:11(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
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Location: VA
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
looking at the great pictures you've provided, the handrail ladder doesn't seem to line up with the footstep on the bogy, is this correct and the couplers between the 2 units could they be replaced with short couplings ?

John


John,

They don't quiet lineup, but I think this matches the prototype (I may misunderstand you). I think they also moved the front steps on the A unit front bogie just a hare to get good R1 compatibility. I attached a picture of an prototype F3, they are slightly offset.

The locos have NEM sockets, so short couplers could most likely be used. There is a good amount of room when they move around a corner, so I think the gap could be closed considerably.

-Brandon
BrandonVA attached the following image(s):
photo240.jpg
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#23 Posted : 23 August 2014 09:23:10(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
The SYMOBA short coupler set recommended by JVuye might help to shorten the distance between the units? Worked well on my coaches and according to the website it is also for locos: http://www.symoba-schniering.de
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Offline sudhir36  
#24 Posted : 23 August 2014 20:13:35(UTC)
sudhir36

United States   
Joined: 06/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Richmond
Brandon,

Thank you so much. Yes, you do need the manual as the functions(F) in MTH GG-1 Amtrak are different (function keys and CV values) from that of MTH Rio Grande Locomotive.

As I mentioned before, there are more functions associated with pantographs (not just sounds) but with the pantographs itself.

I want to explore all the functions before I write a review for MTH Amtrak Loco.

Nakul

Edited by user 24 August 2014 02:30:50(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Yumgui  
#25 Posted : 23 August 2014 23:26:21(UTC)
Yumgui

United States   
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,660
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Please do not post irrelevant stuff in a review topic - reviews are not general discussions but are reviews of one particular model.

Huh ?

What's irrelevant here Juhan ?

Seems to be a good thought process flow here, from MTH, to heavy metal, to Atomic trains and back again, why not ... ?

Dunno where that's coming from ... ^^

Y Confused

PS: Great review btw Brandon, thx for it ! ThumpUp
If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out !
Working on: https://studiogang.com/projects/all
My heavy train station renovation: https://youtu.be/QQlyNiq416A
Inspired by: http://www.nakedmarklin.com/... Am not alone in this universe, phew.
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Offline Nielsenr  
#26 Posted : 24 August 2014 01:30:36(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post

The feeling of metal is important for me when I am buying a locomotive.The traction of the loco is much better too.I do not know if I can find these models in Europe,if I have to buy them from USA the shipping cost will be very high.


Foumaro,

It's a plastic loco, but it doesn't feel bad. It's not like the cheap American models (say Tyco) from years ago. I would say it probably feels similar holding in my hand to the new Marklin V160/216 tooling, or perhaps even the older 216 tooling (Marklin 3075). It feels pretty solid, but certainly it is not the same as a Marklin F unit.

As far as pulling power, this AB set pulls better than my either of my ATSF 37622 sets. The weight is very similar. The Marklin probably weighs a little more (subjective, I did not weigh them), but since MTH has more powered axles and also powers both the A and B unit, it is very strong. Pulling power to me seems very similar to the newer Marklin A-B-B sets with two motors IMHO.

I believe Busch is the distributor of MTH in Europe. I have seen some MTH models floating around on Stummi as well.

I won't stop buying Marklin F units, but I will probably buy another MTH loco, if that helps.

-Brandon


Hope this is considered on-topic.

I weighed a number of locos today. Here is the result:

MTH F3 A unit 483g
MTH F3 B unit 520g
MTH F3 A-B-A 1488g
MTH GP 35 365g
MTH SD70 635g
MTH F7 A unit 473g
MTH F7 B unit 499g

Marklin Wabash PA A 780g
Marklin 37618 F7 A-B-B 1115g
Marklin 37612 PA A-A 1533g

I also have two MTH Challrngers and a MTH BigBoy, but didn't weigh them against a Marklin BigBoy. I figured that would be way too far off topic in a thread about an MTH diesel. And I don't want Juhan getting mad at me and taking away my order for a 15th Anniversary car!! LOL!! J/K!! Maybe when a couple of other MTH loco orders arrive I will star a "Me and my MTH locos" thread.

Robert
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Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 24 August 2014 09:02:10(UTC)
H0


You have been a member since:: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
Marklin 37618 F7 A-B-B 1115g
That's Märklin metal quality.
An A-B-B unit from MTH with it's plastic bodies would come up to just meagre 1471g (summing up your measurements).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline BrandonVA  
#28 Posted : 08 September 2014 16:04:45(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Traction test update:

I have run the A+B set with 26 four-axle cars (14 tin-plate 50 ft box cars, 8 tin-plate tanker cars, 2 plastic gondolas, 1 plastic flatbed with model truck, and 1 tin-plate caboose) up and down my 4% R1 grade at the lowest speed setting. Sound and lights on. Result: no issues, no slipping, no slowing down, pulls it perfectly. Maximum observed consumption: 0.4A.

-Brandon
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Offline Nielsenr  
#29 Posted : 09 September 2014 06:11:44(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Brandon,

Good to hear they can pull a lot of freight cars. I have yet to try and pull a big load yet.

And an update to one of my previous post on this thread, I got a package today and my F3 DRG extra B unit arrived today so I now have an A-B-B-A set. Looks real good!!

Robert
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Offline BrandonVA  
#30 Posted : 09 September 2014 20:30:30(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Robert,

I see I pushed you over the edge :) How do they do the other two units as far as control? Are all four set to the same DCC address from the factory? I am guessing there is a way to run it with each A unit facing the opposite direction?

Have you tried fitting different couplers? I can't decide if I should try close first, or go to a fixed drawbar. I sort of like being able to use just one A unit when I choose.

-Brandon
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Offline Nielsenr  
#31 Posted : 09 September 2014 22:19:25(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Brandon,

Actually Brandon, I had my DRG A-B-A since late July, before your original post And I got my first MTH HO 3 Rail loco back in Feb 2013. I have quite a few MTH HO 3 Rail locos now, 19 individual locos although some like the DRG F3 came as a set (I count them as 2).

They all come from the factory with address 3. I have set them all to the same long DCC address. In this case, I chose 5524, the cab number from the A unit in the A-B set. For the additional A and second B units I set the value of CV 29 to 39 instead of 38. This changes the address to a long address as well as changes the direction of travel.

As for couplers, I have done a test with one of my MTH GP 35s and installed a Kadee #18 on it to see if I could get it to connect to some MTH freight cars. It worked fine. I also installed one of the Kadee #18 couplers on a Marklin US tank car and it hooked up to the MTH freight car fine.

As I was checking out the operation of the new F3 B unit yesterday, I thought about changing out all of the Marklin style couplers on the locos to bring them closer together. I will try the #18s to see how it looks. I also have some longer #19s to ry. And the next time I am at one of my MTH dealer, I may pick up some #17s. I'll let you know how it worked. Maybe if I have time, I'll take some pictures.

Robert
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Offline Nielsenr  
#32 Posted : 10 September 2014 01:43:10(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Brandon,

I just took some measurements with my digital calipers. The distance between the A and B units with the supplied couplers is 1.029". I replaced the supplied Marklin style couplers with Kadee #18s and the distance between units is .719". A difference of over .3". a #17 on each loco may get cut another 1/4".

Robert
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Offline blid  
#33 Posted : 10 September 2014 13:14:35(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I have just posted som Pictures with the #17 Kadee. See Nielsenr - Couplers.
Bjorn
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
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Offline Deborail  
#34 Posted : 16 October 2014 14:43:07(UTC)
Deborail

United Arab Emirates   
Joined: 06/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 819
Location: RAK
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
The only reason that is holding me not to buy yet these perfect locomotives is that they do not have metal shells.What do you think?


Foumaro,

It's still a decently heavy unit. Probably not quiet as heavy as Marklin, bus still a good left. What's your primary reason for wanting metal? Durability? Traction weight? Something else?

-Brandon


The feeling of metal is important for me when I am buying a locomotive.The traction of the loco is much better too.I do not know if I can find these models in Europe,if I have to buy them from USA the shipping cost will be very high.


Gieasou Foumaro,

I think that the shipping cost is not that high, because I regularly purchase F units (made by Athearn Genesis) and the shipping charge is very similar to the shipping charge I get when I order European Locos from Germany.

My 12 pairs of F Units by Athearn Genesis and Walthers are all plastic bodies and metal chassis. I wish they were all metal bodies, but they are still quite heavy. They all come with the newer Tsunami Sound system and all are operational with the Markin CS2.

George

Given enough time, tasks manage themselves.
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Offline foumaro  
#35 Posted : 16 October 2014 18:47:10(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Maybe when i will buy the CS2 i will buy a locomotive like them.My 6021 is too old for new tricks.BigGrin
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Offline blid  
#36 Posted : 17 October 2014 09:10:30(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
On page 25 of the MTH manual for the F3/F7 the heading is:

CV Programming Marklin 6021 Controller

Maybe you don’t have to wait for a CS2!

If you do a product search for a 3-rail H0 F3 or F7, like 80-2197-5, on the MTH site, you can download the manual from the page showing the specific item.

Bjorn
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
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Offline BrandonVA  
#37 Posted : 17 October 2014 20:05:33(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
You can use it with 6021, I believe that you will just be limited to 4 functions. The functions could be remapped for operating sounds, headlight/mars light, running lights and another function of your choice (sound off?). Most of the other sound functions aren not as important. I am not sure if the functions can be remapped via MM protocol. I think if running under 6021 it will run in MM and not DCC. Driving characteristics seem to be about the same under either protocol in my observation.

-Brandon
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Offline BrandonVA  
#38 Posted : 11 November 2014 16:57:55(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Quick update.

I had some spare close couplers laying around, so I fitted them on the A and B units (locos have NEM pockets). This reduces the gap considerably. It also promotes stability when running. I find the B unit has less tendency to uncouple from the A unit on a high grade, and also that the B unit will stay in line with the A unit if the A unit gets hung up due to dirty track or a block being powered off (not intentional, operator error, but better to not have a derailment due to this). The locomotives still clear each other and do not bind on R1 curves or turnouts. I am pretty happy with the improvement from the close couplers.

MTH relex style couplers:
UserPostedImage

Marklin 7203 close couplers:
UserPostedImage

I may try the suggested Kadee couplers later to see how that goes.
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Offline Webmaster  
#39 Posted : 11 November 2014 20:53:03(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Looks much better IMHO... These are the small tweaks we can do with NEM pocket based couplers... ThumpUp
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline BrandonVA  
#40 Posted : 18 September 2015 15:02:23(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
An update:

Some time ago I purchased the additional A unit (Cab #5521) and B Unit (#5522). These are MTH #8021985 and 8021995 respectively. They are listed in catalogs as road numbers 5531/5532, but the actual numbering on the models is 5521/5522. The model numbers make more sense, as D&RGW had three A-B-B-A EMD F3 sets for the California Zephry, one of them begin 5521,5522,5523 and 5524, so I am happy with MTH's choice to update them.

I didn't have success getting the second A unit to run backward in the consist by trying to change it's direction via a single CV setting (possibly operator error). As a result, I was running both cabs in the same direction, A+A+B+B, A+B+B+A, etc. This worked ok when I created my own reality that the F3s had later been regeared for freight service after retiring from CZ service, but didn't work very well for actual CZ service. Any photographic evidence I have ever seen of D&RGW F3s in CZ service suggests they were almost always run A+B+B+A, cabs at each end.

So back to the drawing board...
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Offline BrandonVA  
#41 Posted : 18 September 2015 15:08:00(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
I came across this article from a fellow forum member (Søren);

http://railway.zone/post/Double-Header-With-The-Marklin-Mobile-Station-2-and-DCC

This alone would not get the second A unit facing in the right direction, but it got me thinking. I had previously ignored the consisting instructions in the MTH manual as I just assumed the MS2 did not support consisting (which is somewhat true, it cannot consist MFX protocol nor can it create an advanced consist of MM locomotives, although I don't think MM decoders support it anyway...just run them all on the same address). I revisited the MTH manual and did some more research. I can across this very help article:

http://tonystrains.com/complete-guide-to-consisting/

I also found these instructions for a Digitrax controller. While not applicable to an MS2, it helps to clarify the concepts of CV19, 21 and 22.

http://www.digitrax.com/support/cv/

-Brandon

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Offline BrandonVA  
#42 Posted : 18 September 2015 15:25:53(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
In the end I used "advanced consisting" to setup the locomotive consist the way I wanted.

Advanced consisting is controlled by three CV values.

CV19 = Consist Address
CV21 = F1-F8 Functions available at consist address
CV22 = F0, F9-F12 Functions available at consist address.

These are all set on DCC using PoM (programming on main). In the MS2, when you press shift+lok symbol, you get a list of items to edit a locomotive. If you scroll down, just after "Program CV" you will see PoM.

First, getting the locomotives to run together. This is done by combining a "simple consist" (e.g. multiple locs just being run at the same address) into an "advanced consist"/

I use short DCC addresses as I don't have lot of DCC locos. So, I set them this way:

DCC address 3: 5521 (A unit), 5522 (B Unit), 5523 (B Unit)
DCC address 4: 5524 (A unit)

CV19 builds the advanced consist by assigning an address under which the consist will run. It must be set on all consist members. While in a consist, the units will not respond to driving control at their original addresses, but can still be programmed via PoM at their original addresses.

On Address 3, set CV19 to 6 (via PoM), giving the consist address of 6.
On address 4, set CV19 to 134 (via PoM). This is the trick. Setting the consist address (6) plus 128 reverses the locomotive in the consist. 6+128 = 134.

If the sound is running while you set the CVs via PoM, the locomotives will sound the horn twice in acknowledgement. Once CV19 was set, I created a new DCC loco on the MS2 with an address of 6 called "F3 DRGW CZ". I could now drive the locomotives foward and backward via this address.

The MTH models all run at the same speed from the factory, the motors have very good synchronization. If I place them all a couple of inches apart on the track and run them, they run maintaining the same gap. If this were not the case the speed settings on various consist members would need to be adjusted to get similar running characteristics. However, kudos to MTH consistency in locomotive performance.

Now they are running together, with one cab reversed, but I still have to control other functions (sound, lights, etc) via the original addresses. CV21 and CV22 help with this.
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Offline BrandonVA  
#43 Posted : 18 September 2015 15:52:05(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
As previously stated, CV21 lets you bring F1-F8 from consist members to the consist address. CV22 allows you to bring F0, F9-F12. The consist address cannot run more than 13 functions (NMRA standard). Additional functions must still be run at the locomotive original address. These MTH locomotives have 28 functions, but only 16 are available to me on the MS2 anyway. As previously stated functions can be re-mapped to F0-F15 as needed. All of the useful functions can be access in 16 functions, and honestly really in 13 functions.

What is set on CV21 and CV22 mostly depend on the specific locomotive. Some of the items (same sound mute, 128) seem to be universal, but many are not. For this the MTH manual is required.

In the MTH manual there are two pages to look at; page 20 "Function chart" and page 28 "Function identification chart". The former says what feature is assigned to each F key by default. The latter provides the function identification number for these functions. The function identification is what you need to actually set into CV21 and CV22.

For Example, F1 (bell) has a value of 1 and F3 (Startup/Shutdown) has a value of 24 (as seen on page 28 function identification chart). To just make these two available at the consist address, you add them up and set them to CV21 via PoM. So, in this case you would set CV21 via PoM to 25 (24+1).

There is a chart of page 32 that shows values for CV22. CV22 controls whether the headlight is included in the consist, so it's important IMHO. MTH have two lighting features on these locos, F5 controls the running lights and number boards, F0 the headlight/Mars Light. The caveat is that F0 will not really control the headlight unless F5 is activated. So to backtrack, one may want to add teh running lights F5, value 32, to CV21 (24+32+1) = 57. CV22 can be set via PoM to 1 to include the headlight.

CV21 and 22 need to be set on each address that makes up the consist, e.g. DCC 3 and DCC 4 in this case (again, via PoM).

What's interesting to note is that you can assign different functions to different units in the consist. Say you just want DCC 3 to handle the horn and other functions, set CV21 to 57. You want DCC4 not to do the horn, take it out (-1), CV21 to 56. This can also be leveraged if locomotives have different features. In the case of these locos, all four are identical in features other than the fact that the B units have no lighting.

I found that if I set CV 21 and 22 values to 255, all features F0-F12 would be available in the consist. Since the locomotives all have the same features, that works for me, I don't need to exclude one unit from participating in the horns, etc.
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Offline BrandonVA  
#44 Posted : 18 September 2015 16:05:36(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
So, the quick and dirty way to set this up (if you don't want to read the above).

On each DCC address in the Consist, set via PoM:

CV19 = Consist address (or consist address + 128 to reverse unit), 6 and 134 in my case.
CV21 = 255 (F1-F8 all available)
CV22 = 255 (F0,F9-F12 all available)

Create a new DCC loco on the MS2 with the consist address, adding F0-F12 and setting up icons if you wish.

This gave me:

Name: F3 DRGW CZ
Address: 6
F0 = Headlight
F1 = Bell
F2 = Horn
F3 = Startup/Shutdown
F4 = PFA (station announcement sequence)*
F5 = Running Lights
F6 = Volume (Toggle up/down)
F7 = Engine Sounds (Mute/UnMute)**
F8 = Rear Coupler
F9 = Forward signal (horn sequence)
F10 = Reverse signal (horn sequence)
F11 = Grade crossing (horn sequence
F12 = Clickty Clak***

*This is helpful to have across the whole consist, as As you cycle through the PFA script, it stop all the locos and starts them again, to simulate a stop at the station.
**I had remapped the engine sound mute to F7 (originally front coupler sound) on both consist members DCC 3 and DCC 4.
***F12 has never worked for me on these locos, I probably need to remap the function on each consist member, but I really don't miss it all that much.

Edit:

To take the locos out of the consist, simply set CV19 to 0 (via PoM) on each consist unit (e.g. DCC 3 and DCC 4). You do not need to reset the CV 21/22 values, simple add and remove the consist via CV19.

I'm sure many already understand this, please feel free to correct any errors I may have made.

-Brandon
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Offline BrandonVA  
#45 Posted : 18 September 2015 16:07:18(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
And some pictures to round it off (sorry, didn't bother to get a tripod or the flash).

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

-Brandon
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Offline foumaro  
#46 Posted : 07 October 2015 09:16:55(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
I have just downlaod the MTH catalog and i read the description of this model saying DCC/DCS PROTO SOUND 3E.That means that every model have this description running with my CS2?A friend of mine is going to visit Miami and Houston the next days and i am thinking to buy a MTH locomotive.Another very nice option is EMD
SD70.The model 80-2291-5,80-2267-5 and 80-2247-5 are perfect.Any suggestions for the locomotives and any suggestion for a seller in Miami or Houston?And a last question,is the SD70 era III model?
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#47 Posted : 07 October 2015 13:21:32(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
The SD70 is a 1990s loco. Thus, not era III.
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Offline BrandonVA  
#48 Posted : 07 October 2015 14:13:03(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I have just downlaod the MTH catalog and i read the description of this model saying DCC/DCS PROTO SOUND 3E.That means that every model have this description running with my CS2?A friend of mine is going to visit Miami and Houston the next days and i am thinking to buy a MTH locomotive.Another very nice option is EMD
SD70.The model 80-2291-5,80-2267-5 and 80-2247-5 are perfect.Any suggestions for the locomotives and any suggestion for a seller in Miami or Houston?And a last question,is the SD70 era III model?


Foumaro,

All MTH 3e+ (for Marklin) locomotives run on DCC, and can be controlled by a CS2.

Please be aware that the SD70 notes that it must run on R2 or larger curves. I have an MTH GP35 that also requires R2 curves, but runs fine on R1 curves (the only issue with R1 is that on C-track it gets stuck on turnout lanterns, but I use K track and if I do use C I don't use turnout lanterns). I cannot speak for the SD70, but I suspect this is the same.

The SD70 series was built starting in 1992 (still in production). Some information: http://www.american-rails.com/sd70.html

I do not have a suggestion for Houston. I have once ordered via the internet from Micro Macro Mundo in Miama (http://www.micromacromundo.com). I do not have a lot of experience with them, but when I did order a locomotive from them everything was fine and the shipping was fast. I have heard their store is interesting, but I have not been there.

If you find a dealer, you should call ahead to order as they most likely will not have any Marklin compatible 3e+ models in stock. If you call ahead perhaps they could order it before you arrive.

-Brandon
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Offline Hackcell  
#49 Posted : 07 October 2015 19:01:39(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
euromodeltrains is a good online dealer.

Some 3e+ are available to direct purchase from MTH. That's how I got my ES44AC.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
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Offline Nielsenr  
#50 Posted : 08 October 2015 03:29:14(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
I have a number of MTH 3e+ F3 ABBA sets.

Brandon,
If you haven't tried them already, Kadee #17 or #18 couplers help close the gap on the locos. When I set addresses, I usually use long addressing and set the address to the can number. That means I have to set CV29. To 38. If I want the loco to run backwards, I use 39 for the CV29 value.

Foumaro,
I have used Ready To Roll in Miami to get MTH 3e+ locos, but they do not stock them. A couple of friends and I are the only local buyers of 3 rail HO stuff. They order it from MTH and get it quickly. I have also used EuroModelTrains for mail order.

Robert
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