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Offline RayF  
#51 Posted : 13 August 2014 21:13:04(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Yes and No.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#52 Posted : 13 August 2014 23:10:15(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I already have one.
Intellibox + s88 encoders + Loksound decoders, K83/4 decoders Viessmann/Märklin

It is a complete system. Has been working fine for decades.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline franciscohg  
#53 Posted : 13 August 2014 23:45:53(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
No
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline poulmh  
#54 Posted : 13 August 2014 23:51:11(UTC)
poulmh

Denmark   
Joined: 13/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: copenhagen
NO, from here too.
____________
Poul M Hansen
Offline DV  
#55 Posted : 14 August 2014 00:56:05(UTC)
DV

Australia   
Joined: 29/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 954
Location: Mount Barker, South Australia
No
Dusan V
'I find your lack of faith (in Märklin) disturbing'
Offline H0  
#56 Posted : 14 August 2014 08:36:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
You shall only answer YES or NO.
Do you want an complete digital system without to upgrade and bugs?
I cannot simply answer that question with YES or NO.
I want a digital system that reliably does what I need in a user-friendly way without disturbing bugs.
So probably I should say YES.

I am not against upgrades. I appreciate the new functions that my Central Station 60212 received with ESU upgrades. With the latest "Märklin" version 2.0.4 it was missing a lot - missing too much.

My MS2 got several upgrades, but the old bugs remain. This is disappointing.
OTOH I appreciate that an upgrade extended it from 10+1 locos to 40 locos. Upgrades are not bad.
When I bought the MS2, it didn't even support Master and Slave correctly. Locos with mfx could only be used with the Master, the Slave could only use non-mfx locos. They should have been ashamed to sell such an imperfect, incomplete, limited system. They added Master/Slave mode with an early upgrade.

The CU 6021 is very good in all aspects mentioned above - limitations are supported protocols and address range. Perfect, but capabilities are somewhat outdated. Very efficient user interface and a very well working speed knob.

Intellibox is also very good. Mine has version 1.55 as I didn't bother (yet) to buy version 2.0. Speed knobs are a bit unreliable, so hardware is not the best (I've heard from others who replaced the speed knob encoders, so I'm not the only one).

MS2 is not user-friendly IMHO and has a nasty bug when using DCC and MM at the same time. An upgrade to fix this bug is long overdue. It is not user-friendly because it is small and has only few keys and a small display. But because it is light weight it is a very good controller to be taken to club meetings. It does what we need at club meetings.

The CS2 is not user-friendly IMHO. The user interface is not efficient for me as I need many "clicks" to do things I do frequently. I think it is complicated and often counter-intuitive.

Many different controllers, many different needs. Good to have a choice.

MRR controllers, TV sets and trains in 1:1 are all the same nowadays: they all have a built-in computer and many need software updates to work as expected.
Software development always takes much longer than expected and you always have bugs that slip through quality assurance - or even known bugs that are difficult to trace so they ship the software with known bugs ...
Do not buy early if you don't like upgrades, buy a mature system.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline utkan  
#57 Posted : 14 August 2014 12:27:05(UTC)
utkan

Turkey   
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 19,116
Location: Istanbul,


UserPostedImage


Such a wonderful sight.....Love Love Clean, tidy and neat.....ThumpUp ThumpUp
Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...
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Offline Renato  
#58 Posted : 14 August 2014 12:33:41(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
No for me too.

Renato
Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#59 Posted : 14 August 2014 13:04:56(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
That would be a no for me as well.
As someone further up in the thread said. That would be like buying an iPad without the option to upgrade iOS which would result in a useless device once a new version of iOS comes along and apps are designed for the new version.

I would take bugs any day instead of having to purchase new hardware to replace old even if it would mean no bugs. It would also be an incredible waste of working electronics which on another note is not what this planet needs.
SBB Era IV - VI
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Offline Goofy  
#60 Posted : 14 August 2014 21:06:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Yes for me to have an complete system.
We are talking about model railway which you drive train set and control turnouts/signals.
So why to create an complex digital system when there is bugs too by upgrade?
That´s way i still haven´t bought CS2 or Ecos yet,when i know myself that an complex system shall not make me not possible to control model railway if something happens with the complex system...bla bla bla

By the way...you are driving locomotivs and use turnouts/signals. RollEyes
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline franciscohg  
#61 Posted : 15 August 2014 00:31:32(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Well, in my old little layout I have tested turnouts and signals with my CS2 and were very happy with.
When I begin the new bigger one ( room is ready for a while now, but I have not been in the mood😒 yet) I will test some feedback features, perhaps then the nightmare will begin, perhaps not😀
Re-registration of mfx locos was kind of annoying
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline utkan  
#62 Posted : 15 August 2014 13:47:47(UTC)
utkan

Turkey   
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 19,116
Location: Istanbul,
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: utkan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: utkan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I´m suprised to see comments that is not even about my topic start.
I did wrote...Märklin digital is not complete system.
Upgrade and bugs makes system not complete.
If i look backward when Märklin did had 6021,that was complete system without default.
No upgrading and bugs there...

BigGrin



Hi Anders,

If I happen to find any bugs in Marklinistanbul, I use the sprays below...but so far no bugs have dared to visit my system.....RollEyes



Cheers,

mehmet




Well said Mehmet,

But, you have no bugs not because of your advanced insect sprays, but because your system is entirely analog and thus has none of the problems/bumps/hiccups of digital !!!

Regards,

Philip


Hi Philip,

Of course I haven't got any bugs because of those sprays...BigGrin

But please allow me to correct a fact about my humble layout....my system is not entirely analog....RollEyes

UserPostedImage

there are 3 levels.....the upper level is, as you said entirely analog, bug-free-zone....RollEyes

then the trustable blue boxes level, still analog.....RollEyes

UserPostedImage

and the lowest level, where the bugs are used as useful and faithful slaves.....no need to upgrade, up&down load....RollEyes

a big round blue-bead is enough for the whole system....ThumpUp

OK! I admit...I miss those lovely sounds and magnificent other effects.....Then I pay the price....Sad

But you pay the price in other way, too...RollEyes

What I believe unless you are personally very good at digital, like River , you will always feel dependent to Mother M*....RollEyes

I really do not want to be offensive you or any of you.....if I have been seen in this way , I do apologize to you or any of you...Smile

Cheers,

mehmetSmile


I love the blue bead,is it the new digital protection system?LOL ThumpUp


It is a great protection for both analog and digital.....LOL LOL



Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...
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Offline Goofy  
#63 Posted : 16 August 2014 09:37:49(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
What is digital for the trains?
To control digital locomotivs independently of each other on the same track.
So why to create an complex system,when it´s better with an complete system!?

Flapper
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline supermoee  
#64 Posted : 19 August 2014 13:17:01(UTC)
supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Hello,

no, I do not need a "complete" system with no update capability.

I like to have new functions implemented without beeing forced every time to change all the hardware to get them.

New functions are keeping my interest for railroad modelling alive. Having all the time the same functions and watch only the same trains doing the same things while running in the same circle would be really boring for me.

Anyhow following your definition the 6020/6021 system was the only complete system on the market in history, with all his negative points.

I still can remember. I bought the 6020 with control 80 in 1992 with MM1 protocole and a couple of years after the new 6021 Control unit with MM2 protocole (27 speed steps and 5 functions) came out. So I had to scrap my 6020/6035 and buy the 6021/6036 after 3 years to have the new functionality. What a waste of money.

Intellibox I and II and derivates, Tams MC, ESU EcoS, ESU Navigator, Lenz digital system, Zimo digital system etc. are all not complete system following your definition because the are all upgradeable.

And a new system would be the same. No company would spend money in a not expandable digital system anymore. The investment costs would be too high for a system which will be obsolete within 2 years.

We do not have to forget: the interface 6050/6051 for example was dismissed because the electrical components used were not available on the market anymore. So investing in fixed hardware systems is just stupid.

rgds

Stephan
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Offline H0  
#65 Posted : 19 August 2014 16:08:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: supermoee Go to Quoted Post
I still can remember. I bought the 6020 with control 80 in 1992 with MM1 protocole and a couple of years after the new 6021 Control unit with MM2 protocole (27 speed steps and 5 functions) came out. So I had to scrap my 6020/6035 and buy the 6021/6036 after 3 years to have the new functionality.
MM1 protocol has 14 speed steps, MM2 protocol has 14 speed steps.
27 speed steps are a decoder feature and can be used with any controller (including the 6020, the MS1, the MS2).

The 6035 can be used with the 6021, so no need to scrap it.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline supermoee  
#66 Posted : 19 August 2014 16:51:46(UTC)
supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post

Hello Harald,

I have run a "6021" system for nearly 20 years now with no bugs or problems (touch wood).
My reading on this forum of the various concerns with the more "advanced" Marklin systems has staunched any desires I ever had to move to more complex controllers.

To each his own.

Regards,

PJ

UserPostedImage


Hello PJ,

nice view but thinking about this, probably you spent something about 1500 - 2000 Euro at that time to buy all those components an they take over 1m place on your layout. Not to immagine if you have had all 256 adresses for switches in use.

Today's components cost less than half the price, have many times more power and functions and take less than 0.4m place.

So at that time that was state of the art, but today no chances for such a system
But as you said, to each his own.

rgds

Stephan

Offline Goofy  
#67 Posted : 19 August 2014 17:53:52(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: supermoee Go to Quoted Post
Hello,

no, I do not need a "complete" system with no update capability.

I like to have new functions implemented without beeing forced every time to change all the hardware to get them.

New functions are keeping my interest for railroad modelling alive. Having all the time the same functions and watch only the same trains doing the same things while running in the same circle would be really boring for me.

Anyhow following your definition the 6020/6021 system was the only complete system on the market in history, with all his negative points.

I still can remember. I bought the 6020 with control 80 in 1992 with MM1 protocole and a couple of years after the new 6021 Control unit with MM2 protocole (27 speed steps and 5 functions) came out. So I had to scrap my 6020/6035 and buy the 6021/6036 after 3 years to have the new functionality. What a waste of money.

Intellibox I and II and derivates, Tams MC, ESU EcoS, ESU Navigator, Lenz digital system, Zimo digital system etc. are all not complete system following your definition because the are all upgradeable.

And a new system would be the same. No company would spend money in a not expandable digital system anymore. The investment costs would be too high for a system which will be obsolete within 2 years.

We do not have to forget: the interface 6050/6051 for example was dismissed because the electrical components used were not available on the market anymore. So investing in fixed hardware systems is just stupid.

rgds

Stephan


You miss the point here...
It´s difference between complex and complete system.
I did wrote before,that Märklins digital of today upgrades with bugs.
Lenz is complete system with only DCC protocol.
But it works in all terms!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline RayF  
#68 Posted : 19 August 2014 20:14:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think the point is that Anders wants us all to hate the Marklin system, as he seems to!

Let's all agree that the Marklin digital system is the worst thing ever and we can all carry on enjoying the rest of the forum in peace! [Biggrin]
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Goofy  
#69 Posted : 19 August 2014 20:19:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I think the point is that Anders wants us all to hate the Marklin system, as he seems to!

Let's all agree that the Marklin digital system is the worst thing ever and we can all carry on enjoying the rest of the forum in peace! [Biggrin]


Did i verified i hate Märklin digital!?
You fool...

Goofy, settle down please! /BDNZ

Edited by moderator 20 August 2014 06:30:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline RayF  
#70 Posted : 19 August 2014 20:44:47(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
OK, there's no need for that.

If we're going to resort to name-calling then I'm not playing any more.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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User is suspended until 21/07/4752 11:48:10(UTC) Barguest  
#71 Posted : 19 August 2014 23:30:32(UTC)
Barguest


Joined: 24/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 41
I do check what is reality for me MS2 and a version 1.83
solution 1 to fix take MS2 many hundred kilometer so find CS2 to be update from
solution 2 is to make buy of CS2 instead
what bug fixers comparing late version 2.3 and mine version 1.83? i not find until solution is made 1 or 2 does not matter which
reality for me is today i no have complete system without bug fixer i must make more effort to complete
you kind reader to understanding of mine reality and many good people not need cs2 for layout is small
many reader say technology always move in time ever reality for me is time do stop until more effort is done
ms2 very good for me but as MrGoofy do say when open discuss -still need work to keep update
real solution is make ms2 update easy by internet


Alias for Mulldog Lemmon
Offline river6109  
#72 Posted : 20 August 2014 00:31:06(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I´m suprised to see comments that is not even about my topic start.
I did wrote...Märklin digital is not complete system.
Upgrade and bugs makes system not complete.
If i look backward when Märklin did had 6021,that was complete system without default.
No upgrading and bugs there...

BigGrin


Anders, not quite correct ,6021 or 6020 had a bug, when you put the throttle on 150km/h the locos automatically reversed and I had to send mine into Märklin to get fixed but I agree with you the 6021 system was free of bugs and had everything you needed, I found with the ECoS, they've fixed bugs and than created more, so on its way it had improvements, bugs and more improvements to fix the bugs but it never effected my layout or setup.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline NZMarklinist  
#73 Posted : 20 August 2014 04:02:57(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Lenz is complete system with only DCC protocol.
But it works in all terms!




If Lenz works with only DCC then it is not as complete as the Marklin System or the ESU Control System either Glare
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Offline Goofy  
#74 Posted : 20 August 2014 06:57:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I think the point is that Anders wants us all to hate the Marklin system, as he seems to!

Let's all agree that the Marklin digital system is the worst thing ever and we can all carry on enjoying the rest of the forum in peace! [Biggrin]


Did i verified i hate Märklin digital!?
You fool...

Goofy, settle down please! /BDNZ


And Ray has no rights to write,if i hate Märklin digital,by write "as he seems to".
What does he now about that?

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#75 Posted : 20 August 2014 07:02:28(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: NZMarklinist Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Lenz is complete system with only DCC protocol.
But it works in all terms!




If Lenz works with only DCC then it is not as complete as the Marklin System or the ESU Control System either Glare


Lenz are complete system with DCC.
It´s difference from another system which upgrades all the times with bugs.
With Lenz you don´t need to upgrade system by download.
If Lenz did created same system like Märklin,then it becomes an complex system and possible to upgrade by download.
If it happens,it´s not an complete system.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#76 Posted : 20 August 2014 07:04:52(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Ray's point is that you seem to have a pre-disposed bias against Marklin (which I would agree with, judging by your previous posts), which is why he said what he did. Maybe he could have said it better, but I think his comments were meant to be tongue-in-cheek and no malice was intended.

At any rate, regardless of what and how it was said, that doesn't justify you calling someone a 'Fool'!

Please, let's move on....
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Offline RayF  
#77 Posted : 20 August 2014 08:32:37(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think I'll keep my tongue firmly out of my cheek in future.

My fault I suppose. It's difficult to create subtle humour where many of the participants are non-native English speakers.

Coming back to the topic, I don't think there's much more to be said, as we just seem to be bogged down on how you define "a complete system".
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline river6109  
#78 Posted : 20 August 2014 09:29:39(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I think I'll keep my tongue firmly out of my cheek in future.

My fault I suppose. It's difficult to create subtle humour where many of the participants are non-native English speakers.

Coming back to the topic, I don't think there's much more to be said, as we just seem to be bogged down on how you define "a complete system".


one would have thought you would have allowed, realized, exercised or chosen your words for non-native English speakers and it just show's my subtle English humour doesn't even work for some native English speaking people, BigGrin

back to the topic, the meaning of a complete digital system can be interpreted in many different ways and by each modeller what is perfect for you may not be perfect for me, are we talking about technically, scientifically or electronic components which have a purpose to run your system.
DCC is the most advanced used system at the moment and all its additions are an improvement with time. the motorola system was perfect for a long time but as the electronic world changed the motorola system was outdated but not finished.
it is fair to say Märklin has used its brand name as a tool to introduce a system which wasn't compatible with any thing else until the market opened up and other companies offered gadgets for the Märklin digital system whereas Märklin had its closed protocol and still has.

I'm not sure exactly what Anders means by not being a complete system but one could have many options to choose from all depends which direction you want to go to.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline PJMärklin  
#79 Posted : 20 August 2014 10:18:54(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Hello PJ,

nice view but thinking about this, probably you spent something about 1500 - 2000 Euro at that time to buy all those components an they take over 1m place on your layout. Not to immagine if you have had all 256 adresses for switches in use.

Today's components cost less than half the price, have many times more power and functions and take less than 0.4m place.

So at that time that was state of the art, but today no chances for such a system
But as you said, to each his own.

rgds

Stephan





Hello Stephan,

As the Chinese say : "thank you for your precious advice".

No, I paid nothing like that. The controls have been gradually acquired over the last 19 years - the original bunch were bought cheaply from a Hong Kong Märklin dealer who discounted heavily, from whom I purchased much Märklin 1985 to about 2000 but he is long closed business. The rest were well bought on eBay.

I have plenty of room (and, yes, I will install a few more yet). My layout runs 8 trains at once plus movements in the station platforms / freight/ steamfacility yards. I like to have immediate hands-on control of the trains that are running. I find the 5 functions plenty enough, I do not need the sound of the enginedriver blowing his nose or the stoker dropping his shovel.
The system has worked well for me for a long time and as mentioned in my original missive, I have no desire to make it more complex. So in fact, on my layout there are many chances for such a system.

As said : "to each his own"

Happy Märklineering !!

Regards,

PJ

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
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User is suspended until 21/07/4752 11:48:10(UTC) Barguest  
#80 Posted : 20 August 2014 10:53:19(UTC)
Barguest


Joined: 24/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 41
"real solution is make ms2 update easy by internet" Mine argument still if not can update ms2 with new version how then it be complete? I always missing something.

Alias for Mulldog Lemmon
Offline RayF  
#81 Posted : 20 August 2014 11:02:32(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Quote:
I do not need the sound of the enginedriver blowing his nose or the stoker dropping his shovel.
LOL LOL LOL BigGrin ThumpUp ThumpUp

Brilliant! Thanks for making my day!

I totally agree. A lot of the sounds on my locos are so irrelevant I never actually press half the function buttons on my MS2. In fact I rarely have to press the shift key as generally the ones on the second page are never used.

PJ, I love the look of that bank of controllers on your layout. A solitary CS2 might be more capable, but it does not look half as impressive! I also agree with you that it is preferable to have hands-on control of all your locos, and this can't be done with the modern systems unless you add on lots of MS2s as additional controllers through an interface box, which would look very messy.

"To each his own" sums it all up quite well.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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User is suspended until 21/07/4752 11:48:10(UTC) Barguest  
#82 Posted : 20 August 2014 11:11:09(UTC)
Barguest


Joined: 24/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 41


"real solution is make ms2 update easy by internet"
Alias for Mulldog Lemmon
Offline river6109  
#83 Posted : 20 August 2014 11:28:33(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
my layout consists of Märklin and Roco locos and I use an ECoS and radio control, eventually there will be over 40 trains running but not at the same time and overlooking 40 trains is not an option for the motorola system and yes I spend well over A$ 10.000.00 for my components, 9 boosters, 1 80F, 16 keyboards, 1 6021, 2 6020, 3 memories, 6 train controllers, 64 K 83, 3 S88, 2 transformers and 3 additional transformers (each 3 x 50 VA) and this covered the boosters, 1 interface but never used.

Yes it looked impressive but now my ECoS is handling at least 30 trains (not running at the same time). I still use the Märklin type signal module (home made) and most probably be using the S88's, the only change I've made or wanted to make is the motors for the turnouts and they are now connected to an ESU servo motor controlled via a switch pilot servo module.

although the layout is automatically controlled at any time I can control some locos manually.

if you need more controllers, ESU allows you to use 4 x MS1, several 6021 without any drama, no extra boxes or interface box and of course more radio controls.

I think there is some merit to the various sound slots available for steam locos, what I would like to see to be able to activate these functions at appropriate points, e.g horn sound before entering a tunnel or railway crossing, wheel squeal in curves or to make sound slots available at certain intervals which are already in place, so when the coal shoveling appears the fire box light goes on automatically. sound whistle before departure (I've already programmed this sound slot), I don't think anybody will have time and definitely not me, to be able to activate all these sound on all the different locos at more or less the same time. As Mr. Lenz pointed out, the digital decoders have become to complicated and an automated function system would eliminate the confusion and complication how to program or use these decoders and therefore simplifying the whole approach and its functionality

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#84 Posted : 20 August 2014 11:38:59(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
I do not need the sound of the enginedriver blowing his nose or the stoker dropping his shovel.
LOL LOL LOL BigGrin ThumpUp ThumpUp

Brilliant! Thanks for making my day!


And mine too! BigGrinThumpUp

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I totally agree. A lot of the sounds on my locos are so irrelevant I never actually press half the function buttons on my MS2. In fact I rarely have to press the shift key as generally the ones on the second page are never used.


I would also agree. While my CS2 can operate 16 functions and my Ecos / CS1R can operate twenty something functions, I never get much past lights, smoke, operating sounds and whistles. I don't use the other functions all that much, they tend to be more novelty value.
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Offline utkan  
#85 Posted : 20 August 2014 12:07:42(UTC)
utkan

Turkey   
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 19,116
Location: Istanbul,
UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


Hi Philip,

We have a saying here....'' One crazy man drops a stone into the well, hundred genius men try to get it out....''

You have built a magnificent layout with a great working system...So enjoy your trains as much as you can and f.....(forget) the rest.....LOL LOL

m.utkan

ps: Please more pictures.....Drool Drool Drool
Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...
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Offline NZMarklinist  
#86 Posted : 20 August 2014 16:07:11(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Auckland NZ
Impressive looking layout and Controls PJ ThumpUp

Ditto on more pictures and how it works please if you will Unsure
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline Goofy  
#87 Posted : 20 August 2014 20:45:10(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Ray's point is that you seem to have a pre-disposed bias against Marklin (which I would agree with, judging by your previous posts), which is why he said what he did. Maybe he could have said it better, but I think his comments were meant to be tongue-in-cheek and no malice was intended.

At any rate, regardless of what and how it was said, that doesn't justify you calling someone a 'Fool'!

Please, let's move on....


Be careful what you write!
I don´t have "pre-disposed bias against Märklin".
I did start an topic,by present Märklin digital is not complete system,which is truth.
Did you get it?
So you are closed to start provoce by write wrong way.
Ray did same way about,which was wrong.
That´s way i did call him fool.

Back to topic:
Märklin digital is not complete system.

ThumbDown

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#88 Posted : 20 August 2014 21:25:41(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 544
I have been following this thread with a lot of interest for the last couple of days. Valid points are made and I too feel that a system that allows software/firmware updates is better than a system that does not allow any for of updates.

This thread really does seem to be escalating in to something not so nice so please, why can't we all agree to disagree? Afterall, isn't the most important thing for us all that we are enjoying our trains regardless of how they are controlled?
SBB Era IV - VI
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Offline river6109  
#89 Posted : 20 August 2014 23:59:55(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS Go to Quoted Post
I have been following this thread with a lot of interest for the last couple of days. Valid points are made and I too feel that a system that allows software/firmware updates is better than a system that does not allow any for of updates.

This thread really does seem to be escalating in to something not so nice so please, why can't we all agree to disagree? Afterall, isn't the most important thing for us all that we are enjoying our trains regardless of how they are controlled?


I take your point at the same time what is wrong with expressing your own version and than making statements, the author is bias, one can't have a word on this forum anymore without being corrected because it doesn't suit one person or moderator what has been said instead of trying to understand the writer, a.) what is meant by it, b.) has it got any merit and c.) jumping down his throat because of some political correct forum policy.
Why not announce anything that is not in favour of Märklin will not be published in future so all the Märklin good doers get their daily supplement: I am right and you are wrong, bloody pathetic
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline RayF  
#90 Posted : 21 August 2014 00:31:41(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
What was the point of this topic?

Was it to stimulate a bit of debate about the relative merits of upgradeable software based systems over fixed hardware solutions? I took it as such and tried to contribute to the discussion, but apparently I misunderstood the purpose of the thread, as did others if you follow the responses.

So what do we have then? As far as I can see, a statement was made which no-one is allowed to refute, discuss, or in any way question. "Marklin digital is not a complete system" This is the truth, and you are a fool if you don't "get it".

I don't see the point in trying to follow this thread anymore. I guess I must be a fool after all....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline river6109  
#91 Posted : 21 August 2014 01:05:47(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
What was the point of this topic?

Was it to stimulate a bit of debate about the relative merits of upgradeable software based systems over fixed hardware solutions? I took it as such and tried to contribute to the discussion, but apparently I misunderstood the purpose of the thread, as did others if you follow the responses.

So what do we have then? As far as I can see, a statement was made which no-one is allowed to refute, discuss, or in any way question. "Marklin digital is not a complete system" This is the truth, and you are a fool if you don't "get it".

I don't see the point in trying to follow this thread anymore. I guess I must be a fool after all....


Anders made a point but a point which wasn't understood properly not a clear point and maybe a continuation what has been said before and he may has repeated it, we all know the Märklin digital system is not complete especially for modellers who can see outside the box on the other hand we can discuss it all night and day what is complete and what is incomplete but we never get to this stage when it comes to train purchases or building layouts, and looking at your latest list of potential purchases of locos your collection doesn't look like its being complete, rather incomplete, I guess I must be a fool believing this BigGrin, don't forget the subtle English humour
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#92 Posted : 21 August 2014 02:42:35(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
.........one can't have a word on this forum anymore without being corrected because it doesn't suit one person or moderator what has been said instead of trying to understand the writer.........jumping down his throat because of some political correct forum policy.


Hey, don't bring me into this argument, I would have rather not participated in this particular bunfight. I only made comment as a Moderator (something I have a right to do without coping abuse from you) because one member called another member a 'Fool', which is in breach of forum rules.

If you think the forum policy is politically correct, maybe you should take that up with Juhan as the owner of this site. I do however think he is entitled to set forum policy as he sees fit.

I did ask you to move on, I see that plea has fallen on deaf ears!
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Offline river6109  
#93 Posted : 21 August 2014 03:03:18(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
.........one can't have a word on this forum anymore without being corrected because it doesn't suit one person or moderator what has been said instead of trying to understand the writer.........jumping down his throat because of some political correct forum policy.


Hey, don't bring me into this argument, I would have rather not participated in this particular bunfight. I only made comment as a Moderator (something I have a right to do without coping abuse from you) because one member called another member a 'Fool', which is in breach of forum rules.

If you think the forum policy is politically correct, maybe you should take that up with Juhan as the owner of this site. I do however think he is entitled to set forum policy as he sees fit.

I did ask you to move on, I see that plea has fallen on deaf ears!


One could do without the racist remark, I,m not a horse, I do have a name, secondly no one is abusing you just outlining my thoughts of being bias and using your power as moderator when the word "fool" was used, why didn't you delete it ? and inform the writer this language is not permitted on this forum, you've deleted my jokes because you thought they weren't funny, consistency my son
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Webmaster  
#94 Posted : 21 August 2014 21:34:47(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
My view regarding a "complete" or "finished" system is that you have a set of fixed/given parameters you will have to follow to use the system fully.
The system itself may not be "feature complete" since it is static, but it will work for you and you know exactly what the system can do.

It may be the Lenz DCC way, or the old Märklin Digital MM system. Even both of them have had upgrades regarding hardware & also software over the years.

Even the DCC way is not "complete", since additions like RailCom and such have been added later on and I'm sure more nifty features are added also in the future...

It also depends on what you mean by "complete" - is it a fixed static system (as the old Märklin MM is now) or is it a system that can
run & achieve more than it was originally designed for - like DCC & Märklin developments the last 15 years or so?

Is a controller "complete" if it can only run DCC, Märklin MM or mfx?
Or is a controller "complete" if it can run "everything"?
Is a loco decoder "complete" if it cannot change direction of lights?

There are no "complete" systems - there are legacy systems (one protocol, one mindset), there are crossover systems (like IntelliBox, ESU Ecos, Märklin CS2)
that will cater for more "completeness" regarding the possibilities to operate things any way you like...

I myself prefer the freedom of choosing what to run than to sit with eg a 6021 today. For me, the IB opened my eyes for the future possibilities many years ago...


Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Goofy  
#95 Posted : 24 August 2014 11:15:26(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Since Märklin did introduced new system year 2006,there has been only problem in 8 years with deafults on the system.
I did bought first generation CS1 and there was lot of defaults.
Next step Märklin did,was new generation CS2 and also some trouble shooting.
Upgrading and bugs.
Bugs in the system is and are not acceptebel! ThumbDown
You are the market(customer) who buy material things and expect that system shall works.
When Märklin upgrade program and there is bugs,you cannot accept it.
That is the problem!
An complex system which you upgrade is not an complete system.
The worse complex system,the more problem is there.

"The more laws,the less state."
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#96 Posted : 24 August 2014 11:38:08(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Reading this topic tells me 2 things:

Most users are more than satisfied with Märklin's digital systems, and understand that new features require updates.

Google translate does not work very well, it has a lot of bugs, and need a lot of updates.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline river6109  
#97 Posted : 24 August 2014 12:00:56(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Anders, what you write is true at the same time you look at most products today look at the review section and you will find 98 % of products are faulty within weeks or month,
however each person is entitled to buy anything they like and some people do or do not take notice of existing bugs or haven't been aware of it, it will take a long time before anything, if at all, can be done about it. most website selling these components do not take any responsibility for anything you buy the component as it is and you may find the original software download may had no bugs at all and any other software downloads you undertake will be under your own risk, whether this is fair or unfair is in the eyes of the beholder: us.
I've never owned a CS 1 or CS 2 but an ECoS and I must say they had their share of bugs and while fixing previous bugs introduced more bugs and the upgrade downloads go up and up.

We don't have a choice in this matter you either buy one put up with it or you stay away from it unless we may get some protocol regulations how far bugs can go but I doubt it.

another point is important how does these bugs influence your overall performance of your command station, is it a small section or 1 item and having so many choices of controlling different functions and sound slots, you may find there is a bug in some of these options.
I remember I had Version 2 ESU loksound decoders, proceeded with an upgrade of the Lokprogrammer and the next time I had in mind to upgrade the sound decoder it went dead, the question is, did I do something wrong, did the lok programmer allow me to do something wrong or was there a bug in the system itself and ruined the decoder, in any way they will not take any responsibility for you to download their updates, its at your own risk,
this may all sounds very unfair, very unprofessional but in the end its up to you whether you think this command station is something you need and can you put up with it and hopefully in due course the bugs will disappear.
As you know by that time they most probably introduce a new system with new bugs. even if there would be a law against it, company would simply wind a company up if there are too many claims for compensation and start of a new company under an other name and carry on the same way they did before.

You can bang your head against the wall over and over again and you will find the bugs will be still there the next day, its like having one arm and as time goes past you have to come to a moment of acceptance otherwise you will be fighting the dilemma within your self for weeks and nobody else

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Goofy  
#98 Posted : 25 August 2014 09:24:59(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Anders, what you write is true at the same time you look at most products today look at the review section and you will find 98 % of products are faulty within weeks or month,
however each person is entitled to buy anything they like and some people do or do not take notice of existing bugs or haven't been aware of it, it will take a long time before anything, if at all, can be done about it. most website selling these components do not take any responsibility for anything you buy the component as it is and you may find the original software download may had no bugs at all and any other software downloads you undertake will be under your own risk, whether this is fair or unfair is in the eyes of the beholder: us.
I've never owned a CS 1 or CS 2 but an ECoS and I must say they had their share of bugs and while fixing previous bugs introduced more bugs and the upgrade downloads go up and up.

We don't have a choice in this matter you either buy one put up with it or you stay away from it unless we may get some protocol regulations how far bugs can go but I doubt it.

another point is important how does these bugs influence your overall performance of your command station, is it a small section or 1 item and having so many choices of controlling different functions and sound slots, you may find there is a bug in some of these options.
I remember I had Version 2 ESU loksound decoders, proceeded with an upgrade of the Lokprogrammer and the next time I had in mind to upgrade the sound decoder it went dead, the question is, did I do something wrong, did the lok programmer allow me to do something wrong or was there a bug in the system itself and ruined the decoder, in any way they will not take any responsibility for you to download their updates, its at your own risk,
this may all sounds very unfair, very unprofessional but in the end its up to you whether you think this command station is something you need and can you put up with it and hopefully in due course the bugs will disappear.
As you know by that time they most probably introduce a new system with new bugs. even if there would be a law against it, company would simply wind a company up if there are too many claims for compensation and start of a new company under an other name and carry on the same way they did before.

You can bang your head against the wall over and over again and you will find the bugs will be still there the next day, its like having one arm and as time goes past you have to come to a moment of acceptance otherwise you will be fighting the dilemma within your self for weeks and nobody else

John


The problem is system don´t works allways,as it should be.
The bugs after upgrade cannot accept,since customer expect system shall works perfect without defaults.
What Märklin is doing with the system,is to manipulation market with the bugs.
Before Märklin did introduced new digital system,we did had better complete digital system without bugs.
Why to complex everything in the digital system,when digital is for to control trains no dependings of togehter on the same track?
That´s what digital is for!

Cool
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline river6109  
#99 Posted : 25 August 2014 09:40:53(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Anders, I don't think any company deliberatley introduces bugs I think it has more to do with technicians.

the company has to rely on these technicians to do a satisfactory job, I don't think it is marketing tool to put bugs into the system, on the other hand I don't have any prove or disprove from either scenario.


not related to this topic: read my article about gardening and you will find enough bugs there.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Goofy  
#100 Posted : 26 August 2014 09:28:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Anders, I don't think any company deliberatley introduces bugs I think it has more to do with technicians.


John


Program with the bugs makes technician(CS2) not working propably.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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