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Offline GvanWyk  
#1 Posted : 26 June 2014 21:55:10(UTC)
GvanWyk

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: South Africa
Hi Guys,

I am busy installing a 60965 mSD into a BR53 (Marklin model 3701)

All connections are fairly simple and straight forward, except the connection of the double smoke generators....

The already installed Marklin 7226 smoke generators use the loco body/chassis as the common ground/earth contact.

should I just connect the decoder's :
* Function 1 (green wire) or the
* Aux 2 (Physical Output) (violet wire)
to the positive at the bottom of the smoke generator ?

My basics that I read everywhere on decoder installation is that the items (motor, lights, etc) should be isolated from the chassis?

I used Uhelenbrock decoders previously, and they make provision for this common ground being the chassis.

Please HELP!!! Confused Confused

Regards
Gerhard
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 26 June 2014 22:26:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Gerhard,

Use the function output to power a small relay which then switches track power directly to the smoke generators.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline tulit  
#3 Posted : 27 June 2014 01:43:25(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: GvanWyk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Guys,

I am busy installing a 60965 mSD into a BR53 (Marklin model 3701)

All connections are fairly simple and straight forward, except the connection of the double smoke generators....

The already installed Marklin 7226 smoke generators use the loco body/chassis as the common ground/earth contact.

should I just connect the decoder's :
* Function 1 (green wire) or the
* Aux 2 (Physical Output) (violet wire)
to the positive at the bottom of the smoke generator ?

My basics that I read everywhere on decoder installation is that the items (motor, lights, etc) should be isolated from the chassis?

I used Uhelenbrock decoders previously, and they make provision for this common ground being the chassis.

Please HELP!!! Confused Confused

Regards
Gerhard


You are fine to ground the smoke units to the chassis. There is no (Easy) way to isolate the 7226's from chassis.

As for the relay, it's up to you. I've run dual 7226 smoke units off of one of the function outputs. The outputs are rated to 250mA. A 7226 is around 130mA (according to Seuthe) at 100% duty. So this is pushing it really close to the edge and you risk damaging your decoder.

If you want to avoid the hassle of the relay, you can run two Seuthe #11s instead, they are only 70mA/each.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 27 June 2014 07:56:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
A 7226 is around 130mA (according to Seuthe) at 100% duty.
100% means 16 V. The decoder feeds it pulses of around 20 V (when a 16 V transformer is used for digital operation) and the current will be higher than 130 mA during those pulses.
I do not know if two 7226 connected to one output rated 250 mA exceed the specification (but I'm afraid they do). Transistors die of heat, so room temperature and ventilation inside the loco also play an important role.

Current will be less with Seuthe #11 between decoder and loco frame, but there could be little or no smoke when an MS2 is being used.

When using a relay, Seuthe #11 should be used for digital operation.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline GvanWyk  
#5 Posted : 27 June 2014 11:18:21(UTC)
GvanWyk

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: South Africa
Hi Guys, thanks for the feedback thus far!
I am not all that technical, but to summarize:

1. It will be OK to use the AUX function cable to the smoker + and the chassis will be the - ground (no damage to decoder because of this wiring.
2. If I am using 2x 7226 smokers, it might damage the decoder because the current drawn is bigger than the output of the AUX function of the decoder.
3. To minimise current drawn, 2x Seuthe #11 can be used, but then I will hardly get any smoke when using my MS2.
4. If I add a relay to draw power directly from the track, I still connect the function to the relay to switch smoking on and off.

I have never used a relay... If someone can please provide some schematics / diagram of how it is to be connected?

Tom, your last comment: "When using a relay, Seuthe #11 should be used for digital operation." I am not sure if you are saying that I can only use Seuthe #11 if I connect it:
Marklin 60965 mSD (AUX cable) to Relay to Smoker?

Regards
Gerhard

Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 27 June 2014 11:42:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: GvanWyk Go to Quoted Post
1. It will be OK to use the AUX function cable to the smoker + and the chassis will be the - ground (no damage to decoder because of this wiring.
AUX will be - when activated, chassis will be + about 75% of time (current flows) and - for the rest of time (no current flows between - and -).
That's why a 7226 can be used for digital operation (it's on for only 50 % through 75 % of time, depending on the protocol). And the decoder also reduces the voltage.
With a relay, it will be on 100% of time (when AUX is active) and will get the full track voltage.

Originally Posted by: GvanWyk Go to Quoted Post
Tom, your last comment: "When using a relay, Seuthe #11 should be used for digital operation." I am not sure if you are saying that I can only use Seuthe #11 if I connect it:
Marklin 60965 mSD (AUX cable) to Relay to Smoker?
The 7226 was specified for up to 16 V. With an MS2 and the 18 V power supply and a relay, you will get about 16 V and the 7226 should be OK.
There should be around 18 V with a CS2 and the 19 V power supply.
When a digital controller is used with a transformer (16 V AC), the track voltage will be around 22 V and this could be too much for the 7226 (smoke fluid won't last long and the longevity of the smoke generator could also suffer).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline tulit  
#7 Posted : 27 June 2014 16:10:53(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
.
With a relay, it will be on 100% of time (when AUX is active) and will get the full track voltage.


No it won't. The relay will be on 100% of the time, but the smoke generator will still be duty cycled depending on the protocol since the smoke detector itself will still be chassis grounded. The only way to ensure the smoke generator gets 100% is to isolate it from chassis ground and connect it to the decoders return. This isn't possible (Easily at least) with 7226.
Offline tulit  
#8 Posted : 27 June 2014 16:22:20(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
A 7226 is around 130mA (according to Seuthe) at 100% duty.
100% means 16 V. The decoder feeds it pulses of around 20 V (when a 16 V transformer is used for digital operation) and the current will be higher than 130 mA during those pulses.
I do not know if two 7226 connected to one output rated 250 mA exceed the specification (but I'm afraid they do). Transistors die of heat, so room temperature and ventilation inside the loco also play an important role.

Current will be less with Seuthe #11 between decoder and loco frame, but there could be little or no smoke when an MS2 is being used.

When using a relay, Seuthe #11 should be used for digital operation.



In general, the ratings are not instantaneous ratings. So if you're feeding 20V pulses, at 80% duty, your effective voltage seen by the load is only 16V. On average then, I'm just past the 250mA limit.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 27 June 2014 19:07:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
.
With a relay, it will be on 100% of time (when AUX is active) and will get the full track voltage.

No it won't. The relay will be on 100% of the time, but the smoke generator will still be duty cycled depending on the protocol since the smoke detector itself will still be chassis grounded. The only way to ensure the smoke generator gets 100% is to isolate it from chassis ground and connect it to the decoders return. This isn't possible (Easily at least) with 7226.
Yes, it will - assuming the smoke generator is connected between centre rail slider and chassis with the relay in between.
You can add a diode to get the effect of having it between decoder and chassis.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 27 June 2014 19:23:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tulit Go to Quoted Post
So if you're feeding 20V pulses, at 80% duty, your effective voltage seen by the load is only 16V. On average then, I'm just past the 250mA limit.
.The decoder should have overload protection. The peak current will be 325 mA, the average would be 260 mA at 80%.
It seems that Seuthe smoke generators vary a lot.

It'll probably work with MS2 and 18 V power supply, but is more likely to fail with a CU 6021 and a 16 V transformer.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline GvanWyk  
#11 Posted : 29 June 2014 19:20:40(UTC)
GvanWyk

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: South Africa
Hi Guys,
thank you again for the feedback!!!

OK, I have a hamo BR53 (3802) with dual smokers and decoder. smoker stays on all the time as long as there is power on the track and is not on / off switchable with the decoder. so the best would be if I install a relay from the AUX on the decoder.

I have now done a lot of reading on relays, and could not find anything relating to this on the internet. there is lots about car relays etc. and also some stuff for the 2-rail guys on using relays for loopbacks. so I guess I will need a 24v relay?
but I see many different ones with different ohms and mW and 8 pins and 5 pins... I am lost.... any advice on this?? please?

then, should I also put in a diode to ensure no current comes back to the decoder?

Regards
Gerhard
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