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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 18 April 2014 10:14:17(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi,

my headache is gone.
over several month I've realized the ESU Switch pilot servo module wasn't compatible with the Märklin braking module nor the switching track.

I've inquired on the ESU forum how to go about it but didn't get a full answer except to use optocouplers. I've posted another request how do I connect this optocoupler but haven't received an answer as yet.
earlier in the week I went out and got some optocoupler and later searched the internet and also RS components, the latter was the cheapest and most suitable.
got them in the mail yesterday and started getting ready to solder them onto a circuit board, which I did but unfortunately it didn't work or more precise I didn't know hoe to connect the wires, on one side you've got a led with anode and cathode and the other side an emitter and a collector: anode - cathode = AC, emitter - collector = DC.

I've tried different options and by doing so I've ruined both optocouplers (8 connections), I than referred back to the instruction sheet and noted both connections on each side are common and this more or less answered my debacle,
I've made up another circuit board and this time it worked perfectly one just has to make sure the cathode is connected to the right wire coming from the switching track and not the Märklin braking module.

You may asked yourself, why bother and going through all this trouble, there are several reasons for it.

a.) to make my own Märklin braking module was much cheaper than buying ESU switch pilots and the existing braking modules had been used right across the whole layout

b.) the ESU switch pilot servo and ESU servo motor was essential because in the past the under the board turnout motor assembly just didn't work reliable and some of the motors above had also problems.

c.) the ESU servo motor can be programmed and by doing this the movement is precise and another function is you can adjust the speed

d.) my next project will be how do I change signals with a soft change over but this is something down the track

This problem with the servo motors/switch pilot servo had bothered me for a while because there was no way, with the optpcoupler to make it work and again I can go forward and concentrate on other things.
river6109 attached the following image(s):
servo motor 7.JPG
servo motor 6.JPG
servo motor 5.JPG
servo motor 4.JPG
servo motor 3.JPG
servo motor 2.JPG
servo motor 1.JPG
servo motor.JPG
servo motor.JPG
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Drongo  
#2 Posted : 18 April 2014 11:52:52(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi John,

Very impressive - but, I've goy no idea what you're talking about Huh Huh Huh Could you please translate into the common dinky di lingo. Laugh Laugh Laugh

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 18 April 2014 18:28:41(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: youngagain Go to Quoted Post
Hi John,

Very impressive - but, I've goy no idea what you're talking about Huh Huh Huh Could you please translate into the common dinky di lingo. Laugh Laugh Laugh

Regards
Greg


Greg, using Märklin based digital braking modules to change turnouts , signals and the acceleration and braking delay, using ESU servo motors with a switch pilot servo modules, the Märklin braking modules are not compatible.
Instead of getting rid of all Märklin braking modules I had to find a solution a.) how to use both modules. ESU modules work with ESU digital components but not with Märklin braking modules, a compatible module would be a switch pilot module.
buying switch pilot modules would have meant more out lay of a lot of money and since I'm making the Märklin modules my self this was and is saving me a lot of money.

by asking questions especially on the ESU forum, one person came up with a solution by using opto isolators, these isolators have the capability to use AC on side and DC on the other side and both sides use a common power source (ground).
the switch pilot servo modules can be operated via pulse switches but no external power can be used, so they can't be used with switching tracks they can't be connected to Märklin braking modules, the opto isolators make this possible to use a wire from the switching track going to the optpo isolator and an other wire from the opto isolator goes to the braking module, a,) this maintains the switching track automated switching procedure of a.) turnouts (via opto isolator), power to the track, braking delay and changing the signal from green to red and at the same time the opto isolator activates the pulse switch of the ESU switch pilot servo module.

You can activate the servo motors via the ECoS but you can't change them automatically, again unless you have a switch pilot.

Greg it is a bit confusing and normally you would use Märklin digital components with Märklin central units or ESU components with the ECoS, although ESU offers you modules which are compatible with Märklin based accessories the ESU servo motor is not.
So my excample, you most probably never come across.



John

Edited by user 05 May 2014 17:12:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Drongo  
#4 Posted : 20 April 2014 12:01:24(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Wow John. Thanks for the explanation. I have a pretty good idea what you mean, but I must confess I don't fully understand. The compatibility problem is always going to be a problem as manufacturers try to make their products "different" so that you have to buy their products. One day we may see total compatibility but don't hold your breath.

Regarding electronics - you may as well say it in another language - I just cannot get my simple brain around it. I've been trying to program a turntable for 6 month without success - I think when it comes to electronics I have too much static and I cause them to go haywire. LOL LOL LOL

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 05 May 2014 16:36:59(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Greg,

today I've reached out for help from a local IT specialist and at the same time tried it once more on the ESU forum and I had already a reply from both people, the ESU forum is a voluntary answer system so one can't expect you will receive an answer.

since I''ve connected the optcouplers I had some of them failing but one is still intact.
the new diagram I've received makes sense now and I will try it tomorrow and see how it pans out but I'm pretty confident it will work this time.

the whole idea was to be able to use 2 digital components from different manufacturers and because they are not compatible by direct voltage connection, the opto coupler serves as a double independent voltage supplier and at the same time sends a signal to the emitter and collector from a led, so the moment the led gets a voltage contact it send the signal to the emmiter-collector and this in turn activated the pulse connection on the Switch pilot servo module (common voltage) and it doesn't allow you to connect any external voltage to the pulse connectors.

my next project will be to replace or stop using switching tracks and use reflective optocoupler which can be placed between sleepers and the slider when going over it will activate what ever you intend to activate, e.g. ESU servo motors via the ESU Switch pilot module.

if it works and I can't see why not this will a.) reduce the price again considerable, so long there is no debris over the reflector it will be more reliable than the existing switching track and also can be placed anywhere on the track system without any interruptions to a.) replacing or ripping up tracks, b.) finding a spot to install them and c.) one could place a reflector between each sleeper if you need more than one to be able to activate another source of contact.

John
river6109 attached the following image(s):
Opto coupler.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 05 May 2014 18:48:30(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
This perhaps will help you.
Goofy attached the following image(s):
DSC_0026.JPG
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#7 Posted : 05 May 2014 20:17:02(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
I forgot one more thing...
Don´t forget to connect common(0) in the switch servo for A1-A8.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#8 Posted : 05 May 2014 20:37:35(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Bastard... Blushing
You need to feed power(L) to switchable contact on the relay too!

Sorry
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline river6109  
#9 Posted : 06 May 2014 05:04:19(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Anders,

thanks for your diagram, there is one problem with it, the set up you've displayed is the same set up I have (Märklin braking modules and switching tracks.
the problem with the ESU switch pilot servo module is, the A1-A8 connection is an internal power supply and not suitable for an external power supply, hence the use of an optocoupler.
Sofar I have not being able to establish whether or not the voltage is AC or DC on these pulse connectors (A1-A8) but I assume it is 5 volt DC the same voltage used for the servo motors.
in the switch pilot servo brochure it says the connectors (A1-A8) you can use pulse switches and activate the motors but you're not allowed to use them from an external power supply, I tried one and ruined it.
the first diagram shows the optocoupler and its function, the second diagram shows a reflective optocoupler (replacing the switching track) coupled with an isolator optocoupler. recommended track: k-track

regards.,

John
river6109 attached the following image(s):
optocoupler 1.jpg
Opto coupler 2.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 06 May 2014 05:08:23(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
double post
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 06 May 2014 06:57:44(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Anders,

the problem with the ESU switch pilot servo module is, the A1-A8 connection is an internal power supply and not suitable for an external power supply, hence the use of an optocoupler.

regards.,

John


Okey
Use connection A1-A8 as internal power to the switch track.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 06 May 2014 08:10:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Delete
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 06 May 2014 08:20:40(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,986
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Anders,

Sofar I have not being able to establish whether or not the voltage is AC or DC on these pulse connectors (A1-A8) but I assume it is 5 volt DC the same voltage used for the servo motors.

regards.,

John


It seems to low voltage for the opto coupler to use 5VDC.
If this is truth with 5VDC,you cannot feed so low voltage to the relay by control brake module.

Edited by user 07 May 2014 06:57:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 12 May 2014 04:48:34(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Well I've cracked it now, all is working fine and the diagram for the optocoupler is correct, modified all my optocoupler circuit boards by adding 8 resistors.
I had a bit of a problem with one extension wire, it lost power and hence no respond from the switching track. the wire itself was or is a bit too thick and it wouldn't fit properly into the self assembled connectors and connected the the wire harness to the pulse connector wrongly(back to front.

I also used a separate switch pilot module when activating 2 turnouts at the same time as the module itself doesn't allow 2 turnouts being activated at the same time, well this is how I read it, will try it one day from just one module and see the outcome.

my next task and still is, the reflective optocoupler, whether or not I've ruined 2 of them I bought or they just not suitable for the application, I'll buy another 2, connect them correctly this time and see if I have better luck than.
It would simplifier and again improve a.) the spot you choose (can be fitted in any spot just between 2 sleepers) b.) don't have to worry about if the switching track mechanism getting stuck and c.) it would not be as intrusive or odd looking as a switching track, d.) and maybe the possibility to connect it to a feedback detection module (S88).
So far , I've connected 8 turnout motors to the switch pilot modules and in meantime I've also created a track plan on my ECoS and can control them via the track plan as well.

another track plan will be designed for another 7 turnout motors and a third trackplan after that for 12 more turnouts (these will only be activated via the ECoS track plan) this would cover the small siding with 6 tracks next to the lake or adjacent to the freight and passenger terminal and its use is purely for the provincial railway being able to change locos and carriages with other words exchanging trains from time to time.
the provincial railway will be able to run 6 trains at certain intervals and a diagram will be shown in the near future.

John





https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
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