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Offline pn  
#251 Posted : 27 December 2013 19:00:19(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Hi,

Stefan, I'm really sorry to read that... 7 minutes only on the layout until it breaks is really frustrating... Crying
I hope you can sor it out with the dealer and eventually HAG. Maybe it's that one out of a million things that sometimes happen to someone. As a recent HAG fan, I also hope the Swiss quality that made them well known remain there.

Even being an outsider and not being able to follow all the discussions and rumors on German language forums, I dare tho share my personal view Wink on what might be going on.

1. New owner, new plant location and new staff. Building a new company like that from ground up in months is, indeed, a great challenge especially when we are talking about mostly 'hand craft' models where the quality largely depends on the skills of the staff involved in the production. New staff with the same level of skills will take time to build... That is true in this as well as in many other industries.

2. Technology shift. Perhaps they are aiming at keeping the same quality and end result while introducing some changes in the manufacturing processes making them less dependent on the skills of the staff and more supported by machines. Time will tell whether that is possible or not... I also see HAG jumping in the electronics 'train'. New lighting and new circuit boards produced by the new HAG owner are examples of that. Eventually that will make HAG more appealing to a wider range of mode lists that care about the electronics and the extra features that come with it. Making it work in one go might be the difficult thing. Getting the right balance between robustness, electronics and manufacturing processes is the tricky part. I hope they succeed doing that right.

Regards,
Pedro
Offline Unholz  
#252 Posted : 27 December 2013 21:58:17(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Pedro, you are entirely right ThumpUp - it is simply too much at the same time. Sad If at least they could have taken over some of the old staff (only one guy was willing to join the new company), then some of the necessary skills might have been "preserved".

You also correctly state that all the electronics and extra features might be appealing to new/younger customers. However, it seems that the decoders, circuit boards and other digital components are much more delicate than the almost indestructible parts of the "good old times". And when a decoder dies, the entire loco is immobilized without the average user being able to perform any repairs (similar to automobiles where anybody was able to change a light bulb within 15 minutes 25 years ago - but nowadays it takes three people to dismantle and rebuild almost the entire front of the car Wink ).

Although I too hope that the new people will finally master the problems, I fear that many customers will "jump off the train" in the meantime and turn to other brands that offer cheaper stuff. Those products might have a shorter life span - but the modelers will probably accept this as an inevitable fact due to the good price.
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pn
Offline jvuye  
#253 Posted : 28 December 2013 11:19:56(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
I am sooooo disappointed!
When you let the people go so does the "know-how"...
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline mike c  
#254 Posted : 29 December 2013 04:49:16(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
Stefan,

If it was the decoder (not made by Hag) which gave up the ghost after 7 minutes of operation, it could be due to a defect in the decoder, which would not be Hag's fault. I don't know how long each locomotive is test run before it is put into the box, nor do I know whether digital loks are tested on a digital track or on an analog loop.

Have you checked to see whether the decoder is finished, and if yes, have you tried another decoder or tested the decoder in another lok?

I had one (old) Hag where the metal contacts between chassis and frame was causing a short. Once that contact was straightened out, the lok worked perfectly.
Have you checked to see whether there may be a minor problem or have you determined that the lok is now confirmed dead?

As you just bought the locomotive in question, I would think that returning it to the dealer would be the best option. Would your dealer swap it for another in stock?
If not, would "new Hag" swap or repair it for you?

I am sure that they are just as eager for you to have a pleasant experience as you are. Please keep us informed of how this situation resolves itself.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Unholz  
#255 Posted : 29 December 2013 07:13:42(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Mike, the answer is no to most of your questions. It is my firm belief that it's not the customer's job to perform any after-sale testing when a model costs almost 700 Swiss Francs. I also do not have the necessary technical equipment and knowledge. Lastly, I fear that the guarantee would expire should I attempt to exchange or revive anything inside.

Thus, the dealer has already received the model and will return it to the manufacturer together with my list of complaints. He told me that the ESU decoders used by HAG come from China and that my unit is absolutely not the first one with similar symptoms. Crying

Sure, it might not be HAG's fault when a component from a third party dies. But my motor car dealer will also have to take the "blame" when the battery, the water pump or the starter malfunction a day or so after my automobile purchase.
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Offline mike c  
#256 Posted : 29 December 2013 20:46:58(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
Stefan,

I agree with you fully. If a component dies within a reasonable time of delivery, they should exchange it for you no questions asked. If it expires at any time during the warranty period, they should repair it or replace it if it cannot be repaired.
I did not know that ESU was manufacturing decoders in China. Thanks for the information.

I love my Hag Re 460s. Unlike Maerklin's, they do not have joints in the shell/body where light seeps through. Unlike Roco, they do not have handrails that are almost impossible to install.
I wish that I would have invested in digital rather than analog when I bought them. I hope that I can figure out a way to digitize them in the future.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Unholz  
#257 Posted : 03 January 2014 15:24:42(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
If you want to smile, take a look at the English machine translation (or the German one too, if you speak the language) of this HAG loco's auction description: ThumpUp

http://www.ebay.de/itm/H...&hash=item5af9d4d4ac
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Offline Unholz  
#258 Posted : 07 January 2014 16:03:31(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: pn Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
7 minutes only on the layout until it breaks is really frustrating... Crying
I hope you can sor it out with the dealer and eventually HAG. Maybe it's that one out of a million things that sometimes happen to someone. As a recent HAG fan, I also hope the Swiss quality that made them well known remain there.


With increasing frustration, I must report that the new "electronic" HAG people seem to be throwing all the principles and features overboard that were so characteristic in traditional HAG models (simple and sturdy construction, easy accessibility of the parts inside for maintenance by the customer, etc.).

A friend who actually bought one of the only new Re 460's that have surfaced so far was shocked when he looked inside:

- the area above the unpowered bogie/truck (where the decoder or reversing unit used to sit) is now totally empty/unused
- instead, the entire electronics (printed circuit board, decoder, etc.) now seem to be squeezed beneath the roof of the body shell and around the cabs
- thus, there seems to be extremely little "air"/room left between the motor and the mentioned electronics. My friend fears that unwanted shorts can occur between these parts, possibly resulting in fatal damages like the one that killed my "Fiat Panda" publicity model after seven minutes of operation
- the motor now seems to be permanently connected to the body shell with four (!) individual wires (soldered!). This prevents a quick "Hütchentausch" (switch of body shells). Additionally, the wires are reportedly so short that maintenance of the loco is much more difficult.

I also have heard rumors that a certain series of Re 460's that recently should have been delivered to a private customer were rejected by the customer due to the unacceptable quality of the paintwork and printing.

This is all so unbelievable that I am really beginning to worry. Crying It certainly doesn't sound as if I had been one of a million cases that sometimes happen...

Offline pn  
#259 Posted : 07 January 2014 21:48:50(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: pn Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
7 minutes only on the layout until it breaks is really frustrating... Crying
I hope you can sor it out with the dealer and eventually HAG. Maybe it's that one out of a million things that sometimes happen to someone. As a recent HAG fan, I also hope the Swiss quality that made them well known remain there.


With increasing frustration, I must report that the new "electronic" HAG people seem to be throwing all the principles and features overboard that were so characteristic in traditional HAG models (simple and sturdy construction, easy accessibility of the parts inside for maintenance by the customer, etc.).

A friend who actually bought one of the only new Re 460's that have surfaced so far was shocked when he looked inside:

- the area above the unpowered bogie/truck (where the decoder or reversing unit used to sit) is now totally empty/unused
- instead, the entire electronics (printed circuit board, decoder, etc.) now seem to be squeezed beneath the roof of the body shell and around the cabs
- thus, there seems to be extremely little "air"/room left between the motor and the mentioned electronics. My friend fears that unwanted shorts can occur between these parts, possibly resulting in fatal damages like the one that killed my "Fiat Panda" publicity model after seven minutes of operation
- the motor now seems to be permanently connected to the body shell with four (!) individual wires (soldered!). This prevents a quick "Hütchentausch" (switch of body shells). Additionally, the wires are reportedly so short that maintenance of the loco is much more difficult.

I also have heard rumors that a certain series of Re 460's that recently should have been delivered to a private customer were rejected by the customer due to the unacceptable quality of the paintwork and printing.

This is all so unbelievable that I am really beginning to worry. Crying It certainly doesn't sound as if I had been one of a million cases that sometimes happen...



Yes... that doesn't sound good at all... Crying I can understand your frustration...

It's part of the learning curve the new HAG company has to go through before they are able to deliver with the same level of reliability as the old company that had staff with many years of experience building trains. As mentioned in one of my previous posts, the technology shift they are implementing, in my humble opinion, also plays a role there (more electronics => less sturdy components). I can only hope they go through this learning phase quickly without much additional damage in the good reputation HAG earned over a period of many years... For sure the customer's tolerance range for big shortcomings in high price models is obviously is minimal (not to say none). HAG will have to handle that somehow.
Offline Unholz  
#260 Posted : 08 January 2014 10:18:44(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Pedro, I accept that they have to go through a learning curve.

However, we have now reached the year 2014. A model manufacturer who still dares to produce high-priced models where the body shell can no longer be separated from the chassis must be simply crazy.

Please take a look at this shocking picture in the German-speaking HAG forum - it shows the interior of a brand-new Re 460 "Fiat Panda":

http://www.forum.hag-inf...postID=115056#post115056

Crying Angry
Offline pn  
#261 Posted : 08 January 2014 21:23:11(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Pedro, I accept that they have to go through a learning curve.

However, we have now reached the year 2014. A model manufacturer who still dares to produce high-priced models where the body shell can no longer be separated from the chassis must be simply crazy.

Please take a look at this shocking picture in the German-speaking HAG forum - it shows the interior of a brand-new Re 460 "Fiat Panda":

http://www.forum.hag-inf...postID=115056#post115056

Crying Angry


Hi Stefan,

Scared Scared Scared I've seen the pictures in the HAG forum... Yes, that's not an easy to maintain interior... You are completely right (in my opinion).
That's why most of the manufacturers I know (including the ones producing low cost "hobby" locos") put the electronics right on top of the chassis, not in the body shell. In high cost models that's even worse. I hope they fix it soon...

Pedro
Offline Loadmaster  
#262 Posted : 10 January 2014 03:52:37(UTC)
Loadmaster

United States   
Joined: 03/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 898
Location: So Cal
I guess I will not be purchasing any "new generation" HAG loks. At least I can still find new loks at several retailers here in the USA.
HOac and Z scale running SBB/BLS Era IV-V
Offline river6109  
#263 Posted : 10 January 2014 06:34:52(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
If you want to smile, take a look at the English machine translation (or the German one too, if you speak the language) of this HAG loco's auction description: ThumpUp

http://www.ebay.de/itm/H...&hash=item5af9d4d4ac


Stefan,

what does it mean: nach dem Sinn des Märzes ?

I can't believe it: a company director tells the customers it will be corrected in due course, doesn't look professional to me. its like getting a lock and we'll send the key later.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#264 Posted : 10 January 2014 07:55:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
what does it mean: nach dem Sinn des Märzes?
That's the nonsense you get from double computer translation: it means "direction of travel" ("march" or "March").

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Unholz  
#265 Posted : 16 January 2014 20:56:29(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Sorry, I have just been reading that we should not contribute too may negative posts to this forum, but I simply feel the urge to report what has just happened to me:

I got back my "repaired" HAG Re 460 with "Fiat Panda" publicity livery this evening. However, my disappointment was enormous when I noticed that the sophisticated lighting features which are supposed to be one of the grand achievements of the new HAG company could not be controlled using my Marklin Mobile Station. The loco ignored most of my commands and displayed all kinds of lights in some pre-defined cycle (similar to the flashing lights during a concert of a rock singer) - but NOT the standard 3+1 configuration.

And while I was trying to figure out what to do by looking at the instruction leaflet, the model suddenly stopped abruptly again, and a strange smell emerged from its interior. Crying

D.O.A. for the second time!!!! Cursing Cursing

Again my apologies for sounding negative, but this is definitely no longer the Swiss quality I expect from HAG. I will return the locomotive to the manufacturer a second time (luckily I don't live abroad and thus should not encounter any shipping risks), and if any more defects turn up, then I will return the product to the dealer and reclaim my money.

Where has the pleasure in this hobby gone to...Sad
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Offline RayF  
#266 Posted : 16 January 2014 21:05:19(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,837
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Tough luck, Stephan!

Do you have the MS2? I've found with some of my non-marklin locos with multi-protocol decoders I get a similar effect of random light effects when the loco has one address selected on DCC and a different one on MM. I have got around it by going into the programming on DCC first, and then selecting MM on the MS2 and programming the same values there. Another solution is to disable one of the protocols in either the loco or the controller.

Of course none of this explains the smoke, so I might just be writing nonsense.

I hope you get a good conclusion to your troubles with this loco!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline mike c  
#267 Posted : 16 January 2014 21:16:41(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
Stefan,

sorry to hear that you are still having problems with your new Pandalok. I can't ask whether the same problem occurs for modellers using 6021 or Central Station controllers, because your lok is already twice cooked.

I would definitely suggest that you consider opening the next replacement and testing it for a few minutes at the dealer before bringing it home. Is there a possibility that you can bring the Panda and your MS2 to Alpnachstad to address the issue directly with new Hag?

With the older Re 460s, you could test the operation without the shell. With the Re 4/4II and Re 6/6, this was not possible due to the circuit board on the underside of the roof.
If the new lighting functions are less important to you than just having a model of the "Pandalok" could you ask Hag to deliver one with an older chassis with OEM ESU and the classic bulbs?

As moderator of several forums related to their products, I am sure that the company will go that extra mile to take care of you.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Unholz  
#268 Posted : 16 January 2014 22:02:43(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

With the older Re 460s, you could test the operation without the shell. With the Re 4/4II and Re 6/6, this was not possible due to the circuit board on the underside of the roof.


Thanks for both of your comments.

Ray, for my simple testing purposes (I am mainly only a collector), the MS1 is sufficient. By using this basic configuration, I also try to stand in for the beginner type of customer who should be able to use a product in a plug-and-play manner without any sophisticated equipment. If something doesn't work out for me, it probably won't be good for any other average buyer.

Mike, allow me a tip that might be useful should you once want to test the operation of one of your older HAG Re 4/4 II or Re 6/6 without the shell: You can easily do this by simply inserting a screw (or a similar metal object) between two of the "contact fingers" which are designed to establish contact with the circuit board on the underside of the roof. See the second picture here in the German-speaking HAG forum: http://www.forum.hag-inf...amp;postID=2009#post2009

Unfortunately, it is no longer possible to swap shells or chassis between older and newer HAG Re 460 because they have changed almost everything inside. Crying Thus a Panda shell is no longer compatible with a chassis produced by the old HAG company.
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Offline pn  
#269 Posted : 17 January 2014 18:56:53(UTC)
pn

Portugal   
Joined: 13/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: Portugal
Hi Stefan,

Sorry to hear that... Crying
I fully agree with you. The basics need to work perfectly fine as soon as you get the locomotive out of the box. Please keep us posted on the progress. I'm looking forward to get good news.

Pedro
Offline Bassecourt2854  
#270 Posted : 21 January 2014 01:10:10(UTC)
Bassecourt2854

United States   
Joined: 22/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post

Again my apologies for sounding negative, but this is definitely no longer the Swiss quality I expect from HAG. I will return the locomotive to the manufacturer a second time (luckily I don't live abroad and thus should not encounter any shipping risks), and if any more defects turn up, then I will return the product to the dealer and reclaim my money.

Where has the pleasure in this hobby gone to...Sad


Good morning Stefan,
I'm new on the forum, so I've been doing quite a bit of reading lately and I was, at first, very pleasantly surprised to find the Hag thread. Then I saw you were on it (I'm from Switzerland and obviously you are very well known as a tremendous collector), but then I read what you wrote about the new Hags...
The previous days I read about numerous issues with Marklin and the latest motors and decoders...

My God what is going on with my 2 favorite brands???

What are we gonna do?

After what you wrote, I'm very pessimistic about Hag and I just can't believe this is happening!

Sad sad sad!

Thanks for all the good info,

Cheers from NY
Alain G.
Can't go wrong with a Swiss loc!
Offline Unholz  
#271 Posted : 21 January 2014 06:31:50(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Hi Alain,

Yes, I was happy to view the nice quantity of traditional HAG models on one of your first pictures, and I guess you also like them because of their reliability and simple construction. I am certainly not against innovation and/or electronic features, but the new guys are currently following a dangerous path IMHO. I hope that they will also listen to their critical followers. Wink

Keep enjoying the hobby in spite of some disturbing issues at this time. ThumpUp

Best regards from Switzerland!

Stefan
Offline mike c  
#272 Posted : 21 January 2014 08:33:46(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
I was reading in the Swiss forum that New Hag was going to use a connecting plug in future models so that the shell could be detached from the chassis. I guess that this will be a good step and a sign that the company is willing to listen to customer suggestions.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Bassecourt2854  
#273 Posted : 21 January 2014 16:12:28(UTC)
Bassecourt2854

United States   
Joined: 22/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59

Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Hi Alain,

Yes, I was happy to view the nice quantity of traditional HAG models on one of your first pictures, and I guess you also like them because of their reliability and simple construction. I am certainly not against innovation and/or electronic features, but the new guys are currently following a dangerous path IMHO. I hope that they will also listen to their critical followers. Wink

Keep enjoying the hobby in spite of some disturbing issues at this time. ThumpUp

Best regards from Switzerland!

Stefan


Gute morge Stefan,


I'm certainly not against innovation either, but if you are taking over a product, moving the factory and hiring all but one new employees, before reinventing the wheel I think you should prove to your customers that you can maintain the high quality of your product!


I have about 40 locs from Hag and what I really like is their attention to details, love the way they did the roof on the Re, Ae and Rbe's very finely detailled, love the spring loaded buffer, quality of the paint! they are, were, awesome!


I will certainly not invest in a new Hag before I start reading some positive comments from you and Mike C!


Cheers from snowy NYC, perfect weather for a fondue!

Alain G.
Can't go wrong with a Swiss loc!
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Offline Unholz  
#274 Posted : 02 April 2014 11:37:30(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
This is a cross posting from the HAG Yahoo group; thus my apologies to those of you who subscribe to both forums. Wink

Two or three members among you might be wondering what has happened to the "HAG Ambassador Club" which was founded almost exactly one year ago. Well, the club is not dead (yet...) but due to many disappointments and delays caused by Mr. Urech of the HAG company, the future of the club is unfortunately rather uncertain.

An annual general meeting (AGM) of the members was held last Saturday, but due to other commitments, I was not able to attend. Anyway, the steering committee of the club proposed to the AGM that those members who paid their membership fees for the year 2013 will not have to do so in 2014 (with regard to the lacking activities). I hope that the AGM approved this motion.

Better news is that the first (and maybe also last) official club model, the Ae 6/6 11520 in green livery with coat-of-arms "Langnau im Emmental", should at last be available at the end of October 2014 (if the HAG guys will hopefully for once keep a promise Huh ).
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Offline jcrtrains  
#275 Posted : 15 April 2014 00:12:03(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Question to the group.

Hag continues to release lists of available models. The most recent list was released today. In the 'bodies' part of the list, there are two different versions in some bodies. The following is the example:

11028-G Gehäuse Ae 6/6 Kantonslok rot Ticino 11401
11028-G2 Gehäuse Ae 6/6 Kantonslok rot Ticino 11401 2. Wahl

What is the difference between the two?

Thanks in advance.
Offline Unholz  
#276 Posted : 15 April 2014 06:14:52(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: jcrtrains Go to Quoted Post

11028-G Gehäuse Ae 6/6 Kantonslok rot Ticino 11401
11028-G2 Gehäuse Ae 6/6 Kantonslok rot Ticino 11401 2. Wahl
What is the difference between the two?


"2. Wahl" stands for "seconds", that is a body shell with exterior flaws such as perhaps a minor scratch, a paint chip, a fuzzy printing section, etc.
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Offline Unholz  
#277 Posted : 18 April 2014 15:36:39(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Delivery of the SBB Re 460 with "Coop" publicity livery will start in the next few days. This will be the first locomotive entirely painted and printed in the new production location at Stans in central Switzerland. It remains to be seen whether the serious issues that occurred with some of the last Re 460 models (the "Fiat Panda") have now been strictly eliminated.

Since I no longer buy "New-HAG" models, it will take me a few days or even weeks to get my hands on a random sample from a friend for close inspection. Some pictures that have already surfaced on the Internet reveal a couple of improvements with regard to the visual appearance as well as a few glitches. We shall see... Unsure I will certainly report my findings as usual on my personal web site: http://www.stefanunholz.ch/page2/info.html
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Offline Unholz  
#278 Posted : 14 May 2014 11:37:46(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Just a short warning word in case one of you is thinking of buying one of the "Coop" Re 460's mentioned above:

This time a major blunder has occurred with regard to the pre-settings for analogue operation. The result is that the loco is so slow that you can more or less only use it as a shunter. Crying ThumbDown

My full report in German language is here ( http://www.stefanunholz.ch/page2/info.html ), a Google translation comes up with some rather strange sentences but should at least give you an impression.
Offline Rajnish  
#279 Posted : 15 May 2014 13:04:36(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Hi!

I would perhaps say a manufacturing mis-step or an oversight wherein the CV settings for ESU LokPilot/ LokSound V4 decoder were not changed from the factory settings for analogue mode. It is for this reason the loco runs extremely slowly in the analogue mode. The issue is certainly not acceptable for a premium product but definitely not a "blunder".

A discussion thread about this topic has been opened on HAG company's user forum. The discussion is in German so one of the fellow members who are fluent can help translate the solution posted by one of the forum members. HAG will soon officially post the correct CV values for analogue operation for AC as well as DC mode of operation.

http://forum.hag.ch/inde...odus/?postID=191#post191

best regards,

Rajnish
Offline H0  
#280 Posted : 16 May 2014 08:06:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Rajnish Go to Quoted Post
The issue is certainly not acceptable for a premium product but definitely not a "blunder".
Here is one definition for blunder: "a gross, stupid, or careless mistake"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blunder

Another one: "A blunder is an embarrassing mistake"
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/blunder

HAG made a series of those new Miini Region locos (about 200 AFAIK) and obviously not a single loco of this series was tested in analogue mode at the factory. Is that blunder? May depend on your definition.
An example of good quality assurance and quality checks this is not.

This problem can easily be solved by changing a few CVs in the loco decoder. Those who rely on analogue operation may not have the equipment or the knowledge to fix this simple oversight.

HAG admit the mistake and will provide information how to correct it. That's the best they can do now.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Unholz  
#281 Posted : 16 May 2014 08:25:00(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

This problem can easily be solved by changing a few CVs in the loco decoder. Those who rely on analogue operation may not have the equipment or the knowledge to fix this simple oversight.


Tom, you are so right... Crying But it is even worse, because I only have a Marklin MS2 for testing purposes, and when the Coop model automatically registers itself as an MFX loco, then I am apparently not able to change those CV's (the appropriate function key is crossed out in the display). I was told in the HAG forum that I would first have to attempt to deactivate MFX and reset the model to DCC and thereafter could re-program the values.

However, I am a simple collector without digital knowledge, and I am accustomed to HAG products being ready to run out of the box. It is extremely sad that this no longer seems to be guaranteed. ThumbDown
Offline H0  
#282 Posted : 16 May 2014 09:20:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
It is extremely sad that this no longer seems to be guaranteed.
New HAG, new owners, new location, new workforce. Absolute beginners making simple mistakes.

So hopefully batch 2 of Miini Region and later models won't have any issues.
Time for New HAG to bring a flawless locomotive model without teething problems.

Like HAG MäTrix are experimenting with micro-controller operated light boards in the locos. And some of these locos have to be sent back to have errors fixed (like your HAG Panda loco).

The Miini Region loco supports mfx (or M4 as ESU call it for legal reasons). mfx makes it difficult to adjust analogue mode settings with either an MS1 or MS2.
Disable mfx in the MS2 or find a trusty ol' CU 6021 and the changes can easily be made. Intellibox or Roco MultiMaus will also do it with ease.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#283 Posted : 16 May 2014 09:24:28(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post

Tom, you are so right... Crying But it is even worse, because I only have a Marklin MS2 for testing purposes, and when the Coop model automatically registers itself as an MFX loco, then I am apparently not able to change those CV's (the appropriate function key is crossed out in the display). I was told in the HAG forum that I would first have to attempt to deactivate MFX and reset the model to DCC and thereafter could re-program the values.

You just have to deactivate all other protocols in the MS2 except DCC. Then, You can change the DCC CV-variables. There is no need to reset anything.

After changing the values with DCC, You can switch on all protocolls in the MS2.

This all takes at most 5 minutes.

From my experience, I recommend to use DCC if it is possible and deactivate all other protocols in the loco decoder.

Greetings,
Moritz
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Offline H0  
#284 Posted : 16 May 2014 09:35:50(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
This all takes at most 5 minutes.
For experienced users who can operate an MS2 with closed eyes.
Probably takes longer if you never used the MS2 for CV programming.

After disabling mfx, you will need a DCC loco entry in the MS2. No need to reset anything, but unless you already have a DCC loco in the list you will have to enter a new DCC loco. Manually or by using the "Detect loco" feature of the MS2.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Unholz  
#285 Posted : 16 May 2014 13:09:31(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Thanks to both of you for your helpful advice! ThumpUp

Additionally, a user in the Swiss HAG forum has just published an illustrated instruction sheet which (I assume) shows the same procedure as recommended by you.

http://www.forum.hag-inf...Thread&threadID=7274

All this seems quite self-explanatory and not overly difficult even for me as a layman, so I can't help wondering why the HAG beginners overlook such basic things... Confused Huh
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#286 Posted : 16 May 2014 13:23:42(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Yes, Stefan,
that's what I thought You should do!

It is quite easy, the MS2 is really powerfull enough to do such things.

Moritz
Offline Rajnish  
#287 Posted : 16 May 2014 19:13:49(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Singapore, Singapore
This is really for people who are overly - critical of the new management that is running HAG, and viewing any & every change and innovation that they are trying to bring to the market with cynicism. I completely agree that it is absolutely unacceptable for companies selling premium products to have products released to customers that may have some form of shortcomings. However, there is a fundamental difference between companies consciously trying to sell sub-standard products in the market because the intent is to cut costs versus product performance issues creeping due to inadvertent or unintentional mis-steps. I do not think that is certainly the intent because why would the company deliver new locos at the same price points despite incurring the additional cost of adding new electronics and light system. The new HAG could have very well sold models with the same old electronics which had changed little over the last 10 years.....

To put things in perspective, the old HAG manufactured closely to 40,000 units of Re 460 / Re 465 models over a period of 15+ years, with little change in the technology going inside the models. As you produce the first or the second batch of a couple of hundred locos, you are bound to go through minor manufacturing hiccups and issues which the new management is working consciously to address. If the old company kept manufacturing the same model - Re460 over and over again with little change and churned out 40K units then they ought to produce absolutely perfect models.

I do not think it is easy acquiring and rebuilding a small manufacturing company with very unique IP while loosing more than 70% of the employees during the transition that had deep skills acquired over several years. The new company is making significant investments in its painting process as an example, apart from other areas. I am not at liberty to talk about numbers but if anyone is interested they should speak with Mr. Urech or see it for themselves during one of the open house visits to the factory. The new HAG is running in two shifts today which is testimony to the fact that they must be doing something right which is why they are running at full capacity!!

It is easy to sit back and simply criticize the new management for everything that they maybe trying to do or change. My view is very simple - if the old HAG was so brilliant in running the company then they wouldn't have reached the bankruptcy stage and would have to eventually sell the company in 2012!

If we really love the brand HAG then we should continue to provide critical feedback so that the new management can strive to improve their manufacturing processes and deliver even better quality products in the future.

My two cents.......

Cheers,

Rajnish

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Offline Unholz  
#288 Posted : 16 May 2014 20:03:36(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post

It is quite easy, the MS2 is really powerfull enough to do such things.


Thanks again, Moritz and Tom. I have indeed been experimenting with the MS2 this evening, following your advice and the tutorial in the HAG forum, and I am actually beginning to believe that it is easy. ThumpUp BigGrin

Rajnish, sorry, but I can't really take your comments seriously because you have got most of the facts wrong (for instance, the total production number of Re 460/465 models at Moerschwil was more than 60,000 units). On the other hand, a total production quantity of only 242 Coop locos (in spite of massive free advertising in Swiss Coop's own newspaper which is printed weekly in 1,817,320 copies!) is rather a meagre "success", especially when one considers the fact that most of these models are now still sitting on the shelves of dealers, waiting for buyers...

My main criticism this time is that the "New HAG" guys would only have had to place such a model on an analogue test track for a few minutes, and then they must have imperatively noticed the poor performance. And NO, they do not like critical feedback. On the contrary, they (or probably one particular person) seemingly still believe that they are infallible. Not really a good attitude in these already difficult times for the model railroad industry... Sad

However, one of your statements is partly correct: With regard to financial and controlling aspects, the old HAG management was certainly not brilliant, and THAT was the reason for the company finally reaching the bankruptcy stage. But the attitude towards us customers and the overall product quality was massively better than what we are encountering now.
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Offline mike c  
#289 Posted : 16 May 2014 21:27:49(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,865
Location: Montreal, QC
I think that the transition between Hag (Moerschwil) and Hag (Stans) would have been better if it had been direct. The involvement of other parties who became intermediaries in the process made it much more complex. If Mr Urech would have acquired the company directly from Mr Gahler, there would have been a smoother transition. Mr Urech could have maintained operations in Moerschwil, giving his new team some time to familiarize themselves with the process and operation. Instead, the business was transferred to Mr Schoch and then finally to Mr Urech, which means that the company had to relaunch operations in Stans with only a handful of original employees as well as having to take over projects that had been initiated by or primary work had been undertaken by the Schoch team and now had to be completed by the new management.

It might in some regards have been better to have fallen back on the traditional Hag technology and abandoned or set aside the work that had been done in the interim, which would have allowed Urech's team to start their own projects from the ground up. The urge to release new items as quickly as possible resulted in the decision to continue on existing projects (Stadler shunter, new PC board and lighting for older design models) while other projects (Traxx) were abandoned.

From my point of view, it might have made more sense to shelf and relaunch the Stadler program from scratch again and proceed with the Traxx series (as the only metal bodied version) while continuing to release the other models of the "New Generation" "as is" until the new electronics were ready.

It now seems that a lot of people are hesitant to buy the new Hag models until the quality is proven and this is sad as Hag's quality used to be bankable.

Hopefully they will go back to the basics and stick to what is working until they are ready to launch their new products with the same level of quality and precision as before rather than trying to get product out quickly and throw it against the wall to see what sticks, because that will make for one messy wall.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Rajnish  
#290 Posted : 17 May 2014 04:49:50(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Stefan,

I am sorry for incorrectly stating 40K+ units of Re 460/ Re 465 but I wasn't a "bean counter" sitting on the door of the old HAG in Moerschwil, counting every single Re 460/ 465 loco that came out of their doors over the course of 15+ years (please feel free to correct the exact time frame). In fact I may not have even started in the model train hobby when HAG started building this model. Having just corrected me in terms of the numbers, you have even more strongly re-affirmed my argument that there was nothing super genius about the old HAG manufacturing the model flawlessly and churning out 60K+ units. They changed so little inside the model so obviously there was no reason for any manufacturing mis-steps.

It is your word against my word whether the Re 460/ Re 465 locos are moving off dealer shelves....if people have doubts they can speak to the larger dealers in Switzerland for themselves and verify the facts. I was in Switzerland recently so I know something based on which I am speaking........The new HAG ran a special program in Dec - Jan 2014 to upgrade the lighting system on the old Re 460/ Re 465 stock that dealers had on their store shelves sitting for years. Customers can buy some of their favorite HAG Re 460 liveries with all the bells and whistles of the light and sound features. This is called investment protection for partners......

Mike - You are absolutely spot - on that it would have been far easier for Mr. Urech to have acquired the company directly from the old management in Moerschwil, rather than going through the messy process of acquiring it from Schoch who was intent on destroying the legacy of a 68 years old company in a short span of 7 months. There would have been far great continuity in terms of people and processes.....by the time Mr. Urech acquired the company there were 4 employees (Stefan please correct me) left in the company.

I think what is done and dusted can not be changed despite all the spirited discussions we have on this forum. However, we can do our part by continuously providing the right critique so that the new management is able to deliver models with not just the same quality but even better quality and many new innovations that satisfy the appetite of the digitally in-tuned model train hobbyists!! It is for this reason the company has started a forum of their own to enable customers and partners to provide direct feedback and also resolve issues that they may have with their HAG models. The analogue issue has been discussed, acknowledged and a suitable solution for changing the CV values have been posted on the new forum.

It is one thing to sit in an armchair and make comments about what a company should / shouldn't do and it is another thing to actually run a company.....

Cheers,

Rajnish


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Offline Unholz  
#291 Posted : 17 May 2014 07:41:25(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Rajnish Go to Quoted Post

The analogue issue has been discussed, acknowledged and a suitable solution for changing the CV values have been posted on the new forum.
Rajnish


Rajnish, I am truly curious where you managed to find such a solution on that weird forum. As far as I was able to understand what is written there, two or three members of Mr. Urech's "fan club" only acknowledged the (evident) fact that the problem exists, but then offered contradictory and opaque advice in technician's language with regard to how it can be solved. In any case, the advice provided above in this forum plus the genuine German speaking HAG forum is much more helpful for the average customer and digital layman.

But you are probably right that our spirited discussions here will indeed not change the fate of the company - the customers (among them especially the collectors who couldn't care less about all the bells and whistles and electronic knick-knack that evidently only impair the quality and easy maintenance of the models) are already deciding what to do, as Mike has correctly pointed out.

And when the end has come, the role of poor Mr. Schoch will most probably be viewed in a completely new light. IMHO it is very unfair to label the old gentleman as the fall guy and scapegoat.
Offline H0  
#292 Posted : 17 May 2014 16:30:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Rajnish Go to Quoted Post
The analogue issue has been discussed, acknowledged and a suitable solution for changing the CV values have been posted on the new forum.
On Wednesday a HAG employee acknowledged the problem and announced they would search for a solution.
And now, only 72 hours later, HAG has not yet provided any further information. No solution has been posted on the HAG forum yet, neither by HAG nor by other forum users.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Unholz  
#293 Posted : 18 May 2014 14:30:02(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
In German language, we have the expression "A picture says more than a thousand words".

Please have a look at these pictures and then individually decide whether the appearance and transition of the red squares (plus the upper light cover panel) is acceptable as "Swiss quality":

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
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Offline river6109  
#294 Posted : 18 May 2014 14:39:59(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Stefan,

it doesn't look the best, I never owned a HAG loco because of its price and these errors or mismatch doesn't help to convince me to buy HAG locos except from the original company.
I don't know how to print a perfect picture but there is equipment out there which can and is the equipment the new HAG company is using which is not suitable for these designs.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline chrisisrang  
#295 Posted : 19 May 2014 11:03:55(UTC)
chrisisrang


Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Hong Kong
There is still an ongoing active discussion on the HAG Forum about the best settings for HAG Locos with ESU V4 decoders. It does not seem to be as easy an issue as Stefan has described wherein it was sloppy manufacturing and product quality control that resulted in the model being shipped out without appropriate testing.

http://forum.hag.ch/inde...75e7f1f989e8b969#post259

I tried to translate the webpage in German using Google and what I could decipher is that the root cause of the problem is the incompatibility between the new electronics and ESU decoders and their operation in LEGACY analogue mode in this day and age. If I am wrong and there is a different meaning, please one of the forum members, help provide a more accurate translation of the discussion for the benefit of other forum members. Lutz Hemmerich mentions something to that effect that the analogue operation existed or was known even at the time of the old HAG in Morschwil.

It seems to me that some people have an agenda to provide an extremely negative view of the new HAG. I think the new management, given the challenges of resurrecting the company have done a phenomenal job. They may not be perfect but they are consciously working towards building/ manufacturing much better products.
Offline H0  
#296 Posted : 19 May 2014 13:52:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: chrisisrang Go to Quoted Post
I tried to translate the webpage in German using Google and what I could decipher is that the root cause of the problem is the incompatibility between the new electronics and ESU decoders and their operation in LEGACY analogue mode in this day and age.
One aspect is that two-railers prefer to run their trains without decoders. Don't try this with modern HAG locos because it will fry the on-board electronics.
AFAIK there is no incompatibility between the decoders and the on-board electronics. This would be a shame anyway, since HAG make the on-board electronics and choose the decoders.

I don't have any HAG locos with the new ESU V4 M4 decoders.
I have a Piko loco with ESU V4 M4 decoder and it runs OK in analogue mode. I always set my locos to linear speed characteristics and never tried the loco with the factory defaults.

I presume the HAG locos will also run OK after setting a linear speed curve and maybe a different minimum and maximum voltage for analogue operation.

It seems HAG found new, optimized settings, but didn't publish them yet. People can send the locos back to have them updated ...
Even simple issues can be solved in complicated ways. Maybe they will publish their suggested changes to allow people to update their locos without sending them back.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Rajnish  
#297 Posted : 19 May 2014 17:56:31(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 76
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
It seems HAG found new, optimized settings, but didn't publish them yet. People can send the locos back to have them updated ...
Even simple issues can be solved in complicated ways. Maybe they will publish their suggested changes to allow people to update their locos without sending them back.


Thanks Tom...This is exactly what I was trying to explain reply in my earlier post, based on little that I could translate German to English from HAG's forum. To me it does not sound like a disastrous situation. It is certainly an inconvenience that customers can either fix using MS2/ ESU controller or sending back the loco/ decoder to HAG who should be able to send back the updated decoders/locos to customers FOC. However, what amazes me is that none of the customers running HAG models in analogue mode raised this issue when the Re 460 Fiat Panda was delivered by HAG. I am sure HAG would have fixed the issue in time for the delivery of Re 460 Mini Coop.
Offline Unholz  
#298 Posted : 23 May 2014 09:07:05(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,389
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: chrisisrang Go to Quoted Post

It seems to me that some people have an agenda to provide an extremely negative view of the new HAG.


Chris, please feel free to mention my name straightforwardly - thanks to my profession, I am used to standing under cross fire and even enjoy it. BigGrin

However, please bear in mind that I started playing with HAG trains in my childhood (in 1963, to be exact) and have been collecting them for decades. Even in the "good old days" my views oscillated between enthusiastic (often), content (mostly), and critical (sometimes), and anybody in the Swiss model railroading scene plus the "Old HAG" people will confirm that I am well-known for calling a spade a spade and not mincing my words.

Therefore, the "New HAG" guys and mainly their boss are now simply facing the fact that I am continuing to lay the focus on facts that are just not acceptable to buyers of Swiss quality models. It is simply not fair to expect the customers to serve as guinea pigs and to pay the full price for all the stuff with "teething trouble". It is NOT our job to uncover flaws that should have been instantly noticed by the company's quality inspectors. I am also aware of the fact that Mr. Urech does not like critical reviewers and has thus been attempting to "calm" or "integrate" some of them with a charm offensive and other methods - but in my case this is an entirely dead issue. Flapper
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#299 Posted : 23 May 2014 09:23:12(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Hello Stefan,
for some people it is always difficult to understand, that a critical customer is not against the company he is critisising but he wants to change bad behaviours to become better.

I had the same experience with my engagement for the open letter to Märklin because of the simple cheap 3-pole motor in new high-end models. It lead to big pressure from a forum admin team and finally to the exclusion from that forum.

The admins there didn't understand that I'm not against Märklin but for a better motor and drive technique. They always told me, that I'm against Märklin. Ridiculous!

But such is life. You can't change the mind of a blind people by showing him the truth. He can't see it.

Moritz
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Offline H0  
#300 Posted : 23 May 2014 10:09:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,250
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
I had the same experience with my engagement for the open letter to Märklin because of the simple cheap 3-pole motor in new high-end models. It lead to big pressure from a forum admin team and finally to the exclusion from that forum.

The admins there didn't understand that I'm not against Märklin but for a better motor and drive technique. They always told me, that I'm against Märklin. Ridiculous!
That is only your side of the story. Would be interesting to have the Stummi admins tell their version of the story.

Do not criticize Märklin motors on this forum - this makes many forum users unhappy.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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