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Offline Dimi194  
#1 Posted : 17 April 2014 03:10:34(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Hi there! Yesterday I purchased the engine 2nd hand from the 29605 set (it's really nice, only one scratch), but when I used it this morning when the lights are set to 'off' they flicker on/off (when on they stay on). The braking delay is also massive-and despite changing the setting with my MS2 to '0', nothing has changed!
Any ideas?
Also, does anyone have the manual-I'll need it for cleaning etc, and I'm trying to establish whether it has a smoke contact (the funnel is hollow and has a metal contact, but the function is not mapped on the database entry, and I'm not sure how to do that).

Thanks!

Edited by user 21 April 2014 06:03:51(UTC)  | Reason: More!

Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#2 Posted : 17 April 2014 03:30:02(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
I had trouble getting information on that set but if I got it right while I saw many references to being digital. That is NOT what I see on this box where is shown as Delta! That would explain your troubles since the lights and braking delay shouldn't really be controllable. It'd be great to read the explanation from someone who may know more about since I've seen conflicting data about this one.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/L...p;_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Offline franciscohg  
#3 Posted : 17 April 2014 03:35:54(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,265
Location: Patagonia
Hello. for what I have found the 29605 is equipped with a Delta Module.
you cannot control acc/braking delay.
if there is a contact for a smoke ke unit, it may be a 66031 version, where lights are always on.
Check the wiring for any short. Also a picture of the unit may help.
Regards.
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline franciscohg  
#4 Posted : 17 April 2014 03:40:01(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,265
Location: Patagonia
Hi, I have seen many times delta locs described as Digital, wich, in fact is correct. Delta is Digital.
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#5 Posted : 17 April 2014 03:52:00(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hi, I have seen many times delta locs described as Digital, wich, in fact is correct. Delta is Digital.


I disagree, while Delta is a digital system, in the Marklin world to describe a delta loco plainly as digital without further explanation is incorrect at best and deceiving in some cases. As I am sure a member of your standing would know delta is only a cutprice version of a full digital decoder and it comes with plenty less options. Also locomotives that are the real digital deal -as sold by marklin- will command higher prices than the delta versions.

BTW op, if it is a Delta the decoder won't have an extra option for controlling smoke.
Offline Dimi194  
#6 Posted : 17 April 2014 04:56:13(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Thanks for your responses!
To complicate further, it looks as though the previous owner modified the loco to include a light on the back-so they might have changed the decoder too! Here are some images-if I knew how to remove the tender casing I could see what's inside... I'm afraid of breaking it! Crying
Dimi194 attached the following image(s):
P1020750.JPG
P1020752.JPG
P1020753.JPG
P1020756.JPG
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline Dimi194  
#7 Posted : 17 April 2014 05:11:56(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
I found the manual-it seems it is DELTA, and the smoke unit would always be on-so is there no way to change the braking delay? it is ridiculous (esp for a goods loco). It also says mim radius of 500mm but my layout is most R1, and the starter set came with R1... seems to work okay...
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#8 Posted : 17 April 2014 06:56:37(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
I found the manual-it seems it is DELTA, and the smoke unit would always be on-so is there no way to change the braking delay? it is ridiculous (esp for a goods loco). It also says mim radius of 500mm but my layout is most R1, and the starter set came with R1... seems to work okay...


Hi,

It is not ridiculous, the engine would be quite a few years old now and at the time there would have been a more expensive version (Digital instead of delta) which is very likely it would allow you to change breaking inertia. Most likely with a pot inside the loco and not through the mobile station. That's the way they were made then.
Now I am not sure I am misunderstanding you but you are saying you have a delay already, if it is delta it shouldn't have any, you stop the controller, the loco stops, that's it! Why don't you upload a photo of the decoder to check it hasn't been changed for something else and also some photos of the tender up and down might help to work out how to open it?
Offline Dimi194  
#9 Posted : 17 April 2014 07:47:01(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
I found the manual-it seems it is DELTA, and the smoke unit would always be on-so is there no way to change the braking delay? it is ridiculous (esp for a goods loco). It also says mim radius of 500mm but my layout is most R1, and the starter set came with R1... seems to work okay...


Hi,

It is not ridiculous, the engine would be quite a few years old now and at the time there would have been a more expensive version (Digital instead of delta) which is very likely it would allow you to change breaking inertia. Most likely with a pot inside the loco and not through the mobile station. That's the way they were made then.
Now I am not sure I am misunderstanding you but you are saying you have a delay already, if it is delta it shouldn't have any, you stop the controller, the loco stops, that's it! Why don't you upload a photo of the decoder to check it hasn't been changed for something else and also some photos of the tender up and down might help to work out how to open it?


Sorry for the confusion-I finally worked it out! It has one of the 'more advanced' DELTA chips with the two switches that control vmax and accel/braking delay. The previous owner had the breaking one fully turned so that the braking delay was max-a quick turn has fixed that problem.
Thanks for your help; it's now running very well!


Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 17 April 2014 07:47:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
It also says mim radius of 500mm but my layout is most R1, and the starter set came with R1... seems to work okay...
The typical Märklin manual is about as intuitive as the CS2 UI ...

500 mm is the given minimum radius for a loco with installed piston protection rods.
A Märklin loco without those rods will go through R1, of course.

The plastic housing of the tender is probably just clipped on.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Dimi194  
#11 Posted : 17 April 2014 07:49:22(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
It also says mim radius of 500mm but my layout is most R1, and the starter set came with R1... seems to work okay...
The typical Märklin manual is about as intuitive as the CS2 UI ...

500 mm is the given minimum radius for a loco with installed piston protection rods.
A Märklin loco without those rods will go through R1, of course.

The plastic housing of the tender is probably just clipped on.


Yes, eventually, after much careful prising, the tender top came off... screws as much less complex Flapper !
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 17 April 2014 09:22:11(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The decoder with the two pots is not a delta decoder, but a 6090 or 60902 decoder. Your loco has apparently been converted at some point from the original delta version.

The later versions of the delta decoder, 66031 and 66032, did include an extra function, which could be activated by F2 or F3, as I recall. This could be configured by changing a solder pad to either work with a double reverse pulse, like analogue Telex, or with the function key. The extra function could be used for Telex or smoke generator.

The later Delta decoders offered more functions than the original 6080 digital decoders, so to say they are not "digital" is incorrect. They are simply a form of digital with reduced capabilities.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Dimi194  
#13 Posted : 17 April 2014 09:49:28(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The decoder with the two pots is not a delta decoder, but a 6090 or 60902 decoder. Your loco has apparently been converted at some point from the original delta version.

The later versions of the delta decoder, 66031 and 66032, did include an extra function, which could be activated by F2 or F3, as I recall. This could be configured by changing a solder pad to either work with a double reverse pulse, like analogue Telex, or with the function key. The extra function could be used for Telex or smoke generator.

The later Delta decoders offered more functions than the original 6080 digital decoders, so to say they are not "digital" is incorrect. They are simply a form of digital with reduced capabilities.


Hmmm... Okay, in that case (learning lots about older decoders today!), if you look at the manual, and scroll through, my unit has the decoder that is listed towards the end... here is a photo!
https://medienpdb.maerkl...s/1/pdf/3392_betrieb.pdf
Does that mean the unit is technically 'not' DELTA?
Dimi194 attached the following image(s):
P1020760.JPG
P1020761.JPG
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#14 Posted : 17 April 2014 10:12:51(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
My take on the label 'Delta' is that it refers to the four address selections on the controller.

I only have one Delta loco that I'm aware of, set at the factory to address 80 (I think).
I understand (without really knowing) that any other locos on the layout will need to have the address setting manually configured to match one of the other 3 settings.

Certainly happy to be corrected.

UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 17 April 2014 10:19:23(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Dimi,

The loco I see in your photos has the large Wagner smoke deflectors, which is correct for the loco from the 29605 set, but the decoder in the tender belongs to a 3792 loco. Either the whole tender has been swapped or the decoder board from a 3792 has been fitted instead, in either case the motor would have been modified to a DC motor too.

This loco is neither "technically" nor in any other way "Delta". Instead you have a much better full high efficiency digital loco, which has a custom board for this loco with the equivalent of a 6090 decoder. With the pots you can adjust the maximum speed and the acceleration and braking delay, and the loco will have good slow running and smooth acceleration. None of this is possible with the original Delta decoder.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline RayF  
#16 Posted : 17 April 2014 10:25:13(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
My take on the label 'Delta' is that it refers to the four address selections on the controller.

I only have one Delta loco that I'm aware of, set at the factory to address 80 (I think).
I understand (without really knowing) that any other locos on the layout will need to have the address setting manually configured to match one of the other 3 settings.

Certainly happy to be corrected.



Hi Mulldog,

If controlled with the Delta controller that is indeed the case. There are actually five addresses that can be used, if one also owns the delta pilot handheld controller for the fifth address. Any digital loco can be run on a delta controller if set to those addresses.

Also, Delta locos can actually be set to other addresses and controlled on full digital controllers. 15 addresses are available on early decoders, and the full 80 on later ones.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Dimi194  
#17 Posted : 17 April 2014 10:25:58(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Hi Dimi,

The loco I see in your photos has the large Wagner smoke deflectors, which is correct for the loco from the 29605 set, but the decoder in the tender belongs to a 3792 loco. Either the whole tender has been swapped or the decoder board from a 3792 has been fitted instead, in either case the motor would have been modified to a DC motor too.

This loco is neither "technically" nor in any other way "Delta". Instead you have a much better full high efficiency digital loco, which has a custom board for this loco with the equivalent of a 6090 decoder. With the pots you can adjust the maximum speed and the acceleration and braking delay, and the loco will have good slow running and smooth acceleration. None of this is possible with the original Delta decoder.


Thanks Ray!

Does this mean the flickering light problem should not be occurring, and that a smoke generator required can be switched off and on (if so, which smoke generator is best)?

Thanks! BigGrin
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#18 Posted : 17 April 2014 10:44:17(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

The later Delta decoders offered more functions than the original 6080 digital decoders, so to say they are not "digital" is incorrect. They are simply a form of digital with reduced capabilities.


I have to take that part is directed at my comment, I suggest you read it again because I've clearly said it is digital but I personally do not like to be deceived which is something that happens.

If I am buying a locomotive under the claim it is a Marklin digital then that's exactly what I want. Remember, Marklin came up with the two names, not me.

If the seller is any way concealing it is a Delta loco and tries to pass it as a more expensive digital version then I won't be happy at all and surely a lot of the members on this board wouldn't be happy either.

Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 17 April 2014 11:33:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
Does this mean the flickering light problem should not be occurring, and that a smoke generator required can be switched off and on (if so, which smoke generator is best)?
The flickering is normal for locos equipped with a 6090 decoder (Märklin used a different wiring scheme and different light bulbs with the 60901 and later decoders. Smoke generator cannot normally be controlled with a 6090 decoder, so a "digital" type for 16 through 22 V should be used (Seuthe #11).

Not much flickering with CU 6021 or 60212, but with CS2 or MS2 the flickering is bad.
Light bulbs can we wired the 60901 way to get rid of the flickering: disconnect light bulb from loco frame and connect to + instead. Use "digital" bulbs for 22 V if you make that change.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Dimi194  
#20 Posted : 17 April 2014 11:36:56(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
Does this mean the flickering light problem should not be occurring, and that a smoke generator required can be switched off and on (if so, which smoke generator is best)?
The flickering is normal for locos equipped with a 6090 decoder (Märklin used a different wiring scheme and different light bulbs with the 60901 and later decoders. Smoke generator cannot normally be controlled with a 6090 decoder, so a "digital" type for 16 through 22 V should be used (Seuthe #11).

Not much flickering with CU 6021 or 60212, but with CS2 or MS2 the flickering is bad.
Light bulbs can we wired the 60901 way to get rid of the flickering: disconnect light bulb from loco frame and connect to + instead. Use "digital" bulbs for 22 V if you make that change.


Thanks for the info.
The flickering only occurs when the lights are in the 'off' position (i.e. when the lights are meant to be off they flicker off and on), so are the lights meant to be a 'on only' function?
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline franciscohg  
#21 Posted : 17 April 2014 11:39:47(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,265
Location: Patagonia
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hi, I have seen many times delta locs described as Digital, wich, in fact is correct. Delta is Digital.


I disagree, while Delta is a digital system, in the Marklin world to describe a delta loco plainly as digital without further explanation is incorrect at best and deceiving in some cases. As I am sure a member of your standing would know delta is only a cutprice version of a full digital decoder and it comes with plenty less options. Also locomotives that are the real digital deal -as sold by marklin- will command higher prices than the delta versions.

BTW op, if it is a Delta the decoder won't have an extra option for controlling smoke.


yes, it would be deceiving, but correct at the end. off course it is a cheap version of full digital, but digital at the end.
would you call not digital a crappy 60760?
and with a 60631 or 60632 you can control a smoke unit or a Telex the same way it was did with the old 4 positions MRU
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 17 April 2014 11:45:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
The flickering only occurs when the lights are in the 'off' position
Argh, I forgot that.
Lights should be off in the off position and on (with some flickering) in the on position.

I think I've never seen a 6090 loco with flickering lights in the off position.

A 6090 decoder only has one function: F0.

F0 can be used to control the lights, it can be used to control the smoke generator, or it can be used to control lights and smoke generator at the same time.


Judging from the cable colours, your loco controls the head lights and smoke generator is always on (Seuthe #11).

Edit: I'm irritated because yellow and grey go to the headlight. It should be grey and orange for the front light and yellow and orange for the rear light.
Maybe someone tried to get flicker-free headlights, but used a wrong cable (cable colour does not matter, but wrong cable colour could indicate the cable connects to the wrong spot on the decoder).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Dimi194  
#23 Posted : 17 April 2014 12:14:33(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
The flickering only occurs when the lights are in the 'off' position
Argh, I forgot that.
Lights should be off in the off position and on (with some flickering) in the on position.

I think I've never seen a 6090 loco with flickering lights in the off position.

A 6090 decoder only has one function: F0.

F0 can be used to control the lights, it can be used to control the smoke generator, or it can be used to control lights and smoke generator at the same time.


Judging from the cable colours, your loco controls the head lights and smoke generator is always on (Seuthe #11).

Edit: I'm irritated because yellow and grey go to the headlight. It should be grey and orange for the front light and yellow and orange for the rear light.
Maybe someone tried to get flicker-free headlights, but used a wrong cable (cable colour does not matter, but wrong cable colour could indicate the cable connects to the wrong spot on the decoder).


I guess that's the trouble with 2nd hand locos-you never know what people have done with them!
Thanks immensely for your help-I run my locos with the lights on anyway, so I'm not worried by the flickering (I just wanted to make sure the loco wasn't going to explode!). Having the smoke generator is the most exciting part-this will be my first loco to have one!
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#24 Posted : 17 April 2014 12:32:53(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hi, I have seen many times delta locs described as Digital, wich, in fact is correct. Delta is Digital.


I disagree, while Delta is a digital system, in the Marklin world to describe a delta loco plainly as digital without further explanation is incorrect at best and deceiving in some cases. As I am sure a member of your standing would know delta is only a cutprice version of a full digital decoder and it comes with plenty less options. Also locomotives that are the real digital deal -as sold by marklin- will command higher prices than the delta versions.

BTW op, if it is a Delta the decoder won't have an extra option for controlling smoke.


yes, it would be deceiving, but correct at the end. off course it is a cheap version of full digital, but digital at the end.
would you call not digital a crappy 60760?
and with a 60631 or 60632 you can control a smoke unit or a Telex the same way it was did with the old 4 positions MRU



The point I am trying to make is that Marklin at some stage decided to have two digital systems. One called Marklin Digital and another called Marklin Delta. It was an unfortunate decision in mind but that's what we have which bring us to the problem of causing confusion among people who are not very familiar with the two. Even a well seasoned collector can fall for it because we have two different versions of digital locos that look the same outside.

Unfortunately one of them has less functions and if you don't call them Delta the way Marklin intended confusion and deceit starts playing a part. I have no problem with people saying they work in digital but wouldn't it be better we called the things the way Marklin released them? That way we really know what we are talking about.
Offline franciscohg  
#25 Posted : 17 April 2014 12:58:07(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,265
Location: Patagonia
you are absolutely right. But I think that for instance file a complaint will be hazardous, since the description is not enterily wrong, but, as one member said before, the seller was echonomical with the truth...
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline PJMärklin  
#26 Posted : 17 April 2014 14:20:44(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
My take on the label 'Delta' is that it refers to the four address selections on the controller.

I only have one Delta loco that I'm aware of, set at the factory to address 80 (I think).
I understand (without really knowing) that any other locos on the layout will need to have the address setting manually configured to match one of the other 3 settings.

Certainly happy to be corrected.



Hi Mulldog,

If controlled with the Delta controller that is indeed the case. There are actually five addresses that can be used, if one also owns the delta pilot handheld controller for the fifth address. Any digital loco can be run on a delta controller if set to those addresses.

Also, Delta locos can actually be set to other addresses and controlled on full digital controllers. 15 addresses are available on early decoders, and the full 80 on later ones.


Hello Ray,

These DELTA addresses have come up on the forum before.

There are actually 15 addresses you can use with a DELTA decoder: 02, 06,08,18,20,24,26,54,56,60,62,72,74,78,80.

Märklin reference available if desired.

Regards,

PJ
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Offline RayF  
#27 Posted : 17 April 2014 14:26:06(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Except that he was not economical with the truth. He was being perfectly accurate, because this loco has had it's delta decoder replaced with a full digital 6090.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#28 Posted : 17 April 2014 14:28:16(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
My take on the label 'Delta' is that it refers to the four address selections on the controller.

I only have one Delta loco that I'm aware of, set at the factory to address 80 (I think).
I understand (without really knowing) that any other locos on the layout will need to have the address setting manually configured to match one of the other 3 settings.

Certainly happy to be corrected.



Hi Mulldog,

If controlled with the Delta controller that is indeed the case. There are actually five addresses that can be used, if one also owns the delta pilot handheld controller for the fifth address. Any digital loco can be run on a delta controller if set to those addresses.

Also, Delta locos can actually be set to other addresses and controlled on full digital controllers. 15 addresses are available on early decoders, and the full 80 on later ones.


Hello Ray,

These DELTA addresses have come up on the forum before.

There are actually 15 addresses you can use with a DELTA decoder: 02, 06,08,18,20,24,26,54,56,60,62,72,74,78,80.

Märklin reference available if desired.

Regards,

PJ


Yes, that's what I wrote. Thanks for specifying the actual addresses. I also added the information that 66032 decoders can access all 80 MM addresses.

"Also, Delta locos can actually be set to other addresses and controlled on full digital controllers. 15 addresses are available on early decoders, and the full 80 on later ones."
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline PJMärklin  
#29 Posted : 17 April 2014 14:32:41(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
My take on the label 'Delta' is that it refers to the four address selections on the controller.

I only have one Delta loco that I'm aware of, set at the factory to address 80 (I think).
I understand (without really knowing) that any other locos on the layout will need to have the address setting manually configured to match one of the other 3 settings.

Certainly happy to be corrected.



Hi Mulldog,

If controlled with the Delta controller that is indeed the case. There are actually five addresses that can be used, if one also owns the delta pilot handheld controller for the fifth address. Any digital loco can be run on a delta controller if set to those addresses.

Also, Delta locos can actually be set to other addresses and controlled on full digital controllers. 15 addresses are available on early decoders, and the full 80 on later ones.




OH! Sorry Ray,

I see now that you were noting what addresses could be used by a delta decoder and (if I had carefully read on) also note the 15 addresses in the converse.

Mea culpa !!!

Regards,

PJ
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Offline RayF  
#30 Posted : 17 April 2014 14:36:09(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
My take on the label 'Delta' is that it refers to the four address selections on the controller.

I only have one Delta loco that I'm aware of, set at the factory to address 80 (I think).
I understand (without really knowing) that any other locos on the layout will need to have the address setting manually configured to match one of the other 3 settings.

Certainly happy to be corrected.



Hi Mulldog,

If controlled with the Delta controller that is indeed the case. There are actually five addresses that can be used, if one also owns the delta pilot handheld controller for the fifth address. Any digital loco can be run on a delta controller if set to those addresses.

Also, Delta locos can actually be set to other addresses and controlled on full digital controllers. 15 addresses are available on early decoders, and the full 80 on later ones.




OH! Sorry Ray,

I see now that you were noting what addresses could be used by a delta decoder and (if I had carefully read on) also note the 15 addresses in the converse.

Mea culpa !!!

Regards,

PJ


No problem! I was too lazy to look up my notes for the actual addresses, so thanks for adding them. ThumpUp
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#31 Posted : 17 April 2014 14:44:12(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

The later Delta decoders offered more functions than the original 6080 digital decoders, so to say they are not "digital" is incorrect. They are simply a form of digital with reduced capabilities.


I have to take that part is directed at my comment, I suggest you read it again because I've clearly said it is digital but I personally do not like to be deceived which is something that happens.

If I am buying a locomotive under the claim it is a Marklin digital then that's exactly what I want. Remember, Marklin came up with the two names, not me.

If the seller is any way concealing it is a Delta loco and tries to pass it as a more expensive digital version then I won't be happy at all and surely a lot of the members on this board wouldn't be happy either.



Just saw this. Sorry, did not mean to sound critical. Of course one should not claim that a loco is full high efficiency digital if it's Delta or early Marklin digital. Also the buyer sometimes has to "dig" into the description a bit, or maybe research the model number to get the full picture.

In the case of this loco, the seller would be perfectly entitled to describe it as digital because the decoder has been changed to a full, high efficiency, digital 6090. OK, it's not the very latest model of decoder, but it's far better than Delta.

I apologise again if I sounded like I was being critical of your comment, I was just offering more information.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#32 Posted : 17 April 2014 21:09:33(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
Here's the characteristics list (in english):

Symbols

There's a brief explanation about each of the digital systems. Marklin's continual digital development is only really clear to those that were there when Delta was introduced. For the rest of of jumping in at a later point, it can be confusing.

My first starter pack has an MS2. I then deliberately bought a Delta starter pack to work out how they differed. If I'm not mistaken, the important thing to understand about Delta is that if you have more than one Delta loco, you WILL need to change the addresses so that no two Delta locos have the same physical address. Assuming that you'll be running them at the same time, on the same layout and regardless of the controller that you're using. Again, happy to be corrected here.

I don't know how this applies to the conversion that the previous owner has done here.



UserPostedImage
Offline Janne75  
#33 Posted : 17 April 2014 22:18:04(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
Here's the characteristics list (in english):

Symbols

There's a brief explanation about each of the digital systems. Marklin's continual digital development is only really clear to those that were there when Delta was introduced. For the rest of of jumping in at a later point, it can be confusing.

My first starter pack has an MS2. I then deliberately bought a Delta starter pack to work out how they differed. If I'm not mistaken, the important thing to understand about Delta is that if you have more than one Delta loco, you WILL need to change the addresses so that no two Delta locos have the same physical address. Assuming that you'll be running them at the same time, on the same layout and regardless of the controller that you're using. Again, happy to be corrected here.

I don't know how this applies to the conversion that the previous owner has done here.




Hi Ross,

Yes, with Delta and also all Märklin Digital locos with 4 or 8 DIP switches you must be sure to not have the same address in two or more locos at the same time on the layout. I have myself maybe around 15-20 Delta locos and many Digital ones with DIP switches. I have put a very small physical address sticker under my all locos to be sure not to put the same address ones on the layout at the same time. I have all addresses listed in loco names too in CS2 and loco list in my computer.

Nowadays when using CS2 locos can be called by their address in the newest software version. Mfx locos are the one that can be used always without any problems of address collisions as they have kind of their unique mac address in them and don't care about their physical address. By this I mean that there can be "older type" Delta or other DIP switch equipped Digital locos with the same address on the track with these Mfx locos with the very same physical address.

I am quite happy with many of my Delta locos now. They got much better when I modified their motors with ball bearings. No acceleration and braking delay, but much better running anyway as the armature is spinning more freely.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Janne75  
#34 Posted : 17 April 2014 22:31:59(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi all,

I wanted to add this information about some Delta decoders here. It is possible in many cases to get more functions and full 80 addresses from normal Delta decoders by modifying them by soldering. Here is more information:

Bogobit Decoder types

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#35 Posted : 17 April 2014 23:43:30(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post

Hi Ross,

Yes, with Delta and also all Märklin Digital locos with 4 or 8 DIP switches you must be sure to not have the same address in two or more locos at the same time on the layout. I have myself maybe around 15-20 Delta locos and many Digital ones with DIP switches. I have put a very small physical address sticker under my all locos to be sure not to put the same address ones on the layout at the same time. I have all addresses listed in loco names too in CS2 and loco list in my computer.

Nowadays when using CS2 locos can be called by their address in the newest software version. Mfx locos are the one that can be used always without any problems of address collisions as they have kind of their unique mac address in them and don't care about their physical address. By this I mean that there can be "older type" Delta or other DIP switch equipped Digital locos with the same address on the track with these Mfx locos with the very same physical address.

I am quite happy with many of my Delta locos now. They got much better when I modified their motors with ball bearings. No acceleration and braking delay, but much better running anyway as the armature is spinning more freely.

Regards,
Janne


Thanks Janne. I realised soon after I got the MS2, that I still didn't understand how the older locos would work and that I needed to understand the previous systems as well.
Dimi, thanks for asking the question. As you can see, a lot of valuable info has become available from other posters and their experience, as a result.

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Offline intruder  
#36 Posted : 18 April 2014 02:54:21(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
Dimi 194.

o me it looks like the c91 decoder found in the br50, 37840, with märklin part number 602758.
For more details, see http://www.saebonet.com/svein/Tog/sites/d/3084.htm
But, be warned, I have been wrong before.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
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Offline RayF  
#37 Posted : 18 April 2014 11:09:44(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: intruder Go to Quoted Post
Dimi 194.

o me it looks like the c91 decoder found in the br50, 37840, with märklin part number 602758.
For more details, see http://www.saebonet.com/svein/Tog/sites/d/3084.htm
But, be warned, I have been wrong before.


You might be right. Either way it's either a c90 or a c91, not a Delta.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Janne75  
#38 Posted : 18 April 2014 11:52:56(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi Dimi, all,

This decoder you have is the 60902 as the chip has writing 701.22 on it. I copied this text from Bogobit website:

"The 60902 high performance decoder

chip 701.22
headlight directional, flicker-free, protected
functions aux. function, f1, f2 (all protected); f4 momentum off
addresses DIP switch, 80 digital, automatic analog mode
motor DC; 60901 converts a DCM to DC, 60904 converts LFCM to DC
size 36 × 21 × 9 mm
The 60902 is the successor of the c90, and was introduced in 1997. Its motor regulation performance has been improved over the c90. The control circuit is integrated in the decoder chip, which is a 701.22. The decoder provides two extended functions f1 and f2, and the circuit board has provision for further components to provide functions f3 and f4, but by default f4 is used to turn off the acceleration and deceleration delay to get instant control over the loco. The decoder chip understands the Motorola 2 protocol, provides 27 speed steps, has automatic analog detection, and flicker-free lighting. Positive and negative rectified track voltage is available for flicker-free lighting and as supply for other circuits, e. g. sound modules."

So it is very good decoder in my opinion. Congratulations for your purchase ThumpUp . I just looked your posted photos of this decoder today. I have maybe 30-40 locomotives with Digital decoders with pots to adjust acceleration and braking delay + maximum speed. I like these types of decoders and I am used to them. I can understand well that the users who are already more used to programmable decoders or mfx decoders have some issues with these. They have not used these a bit older decoders with manual adjusting pots. The advantage with the later programmable or mfx decoders is the change of these settings without the need to remove loco or tender body to alter the settings. No big problem for me though.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Dimi194  
#39 Posted : 18 April 2014 12:19:49(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Dimi, all,

This decoder you have is the 60902 as the chip has writing 701.22 on it. I copied this text from Bogobit website:

"The 60902 high performance decoder

chip 701.22
headlight directional, flicker-free, protected
functions aux. function, f1, f2 (all protected); f4 momentum off
addresses DIP switch, 80 digital, automatic analog mode
motor DC; 60901 converts a DCM to DC, 60904 converts LFCM to DC
size 36 × 21 × 9 mm
The 60902 is the successor of the c90, and was introduced in 1997. Its motor regulation performance has been improved over the c90. The control circuit is integrated in the decoder chip, which is a 701.22. The decoder provides two extended functions f1 and f2, and the circuit board has provision for further components to provide functions f3 and f4, but by default f4 is used to turn off the acceleration and deceleration delay to get instant control over the loco. The decoder chip understands the Motorola 2 protocol, provides 27 speed steps, has automatic analog detection, and flicker-free lighting. Positive and negative rectified track voltage is available for flicker-free lighting and as supply for other circuits, e. g. sound modules."

So it is very good decoder in my opinion. Congratulations for your purchase ThumpUp . I just looked your posted photos of this decoder today. I have maybe 30-40 locomotives with Digital decoders with pots to adjust acceleration and braking delay + maximum speed. I like these types of decoders and I am used to them. I can understand well that the users who are already more used to programmable decoders or mfx decoders have some issues with these. They have not used these a bit older decoders with manual adjusting pots. The advantage with the later programmable or mfx decoders is the change of these settings without the need to remove loco or tender body to alter the settings. No big problem for me though.

Regards,
Janne


Thank you! Very helpful indeed... though I'm still unsure why the lights flicker when in the 'off' position. Is it simply a case of poor wiring by the previous owner?
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline Janne75  
#40 Posted : 18 April 2014 15:17:49(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,550
Location: Finland
Hi Dimi,

I think the lights wiring is wrong like Tom (H0) wrote earlier:

"Edit: I'm irritated because yellow and grey go to the headlight. It should be grey and orange for the front light and yellow and orange for the rear light.
Maybe someone tried to get flicker-free headlights, but used a wrong cable (cable colour does not matter, but wrong cable colour could indicate the cable connects to the wrong spot on the decoder)."

This maybe causes this problem as there was this error with the wire colors used for lights IF they are wired to the original spots on the decoder and not changed afterwards.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
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Offline Dimi194  
#41 Posted : 21 April 2014 06:07:58(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
More problems/issues...Confused
After running the loco more, 2 things have started happening;
1. The loco runs jerkily (as in, it seems to rev faster, then slow down, then faster again-sometimes almost coming to a stop before continuing). I already oiled it, and have tried replacing the brushes to no avail-methinks it's the decoder, as I can't find any physical reason for the strangeness.
Could it be that that MS2 can register 128 speed steps, yet the decoder only has 27? I checked the settings and the MS2 is set to detect MM2, mfx, DCC...
2. When adjusting another loco, it stutters and its lights flicker and the jerking becomes very pronounced. This only happens when adjusting another loco (speed, switching on lights etc); when they are both running without me changing things it runs as noted above.
Any ideas? I'm thinking maybe this wasn't such a great buy after all Crying (if only I was skilled enough to work this out myself!)

Thanks!
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#42 Posted : 21 April 2014 06:32:31(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
Quote:
Sorry for the confusion-I finally worked it out! It has one of the 'more advanced' DELTA chips with the two switches that control vmax and accel/braking delay. The previous owner had the breaking one fully turned so that the braking delay was max-a quick turn has fixed that problem.
Thanks for your help; it's now running very well!


As something changed since this post?

Doe you have problems with both locos when running them individually?
Or only when they are ontrack together?

I'm assuming you've checked the basic stuff like clean track and wheels etc.



UserPostedImage
Offline Lollo  
#43 Posted : 21 April 2014 06:43:02(UTC)
Lollo

New Zealand   
Joined: 22/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 365
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
More problems/issues...Confused
After running the loco more, 2 things have started happening;
1. The loco runs jerkily (as in, it seems to rev faster, then slow down, then faster again-sometimes almost coming to a stop before continuing). I already oiled it, and have tried replacing the brushes to no avail-methinks it's the decoder, as I can't find any physical reason for the strangeness.
Could it be that that MS2 can register 128 speed steps, yet the decoder only has 27? I checked the settings and the MS2 is set to detect MM2, mfx, DCC...
2. When adjusting another loco, it stutters and its lights flicker and the jerking becomes very pronounced. This only happens when adjusting another loco (speed, switching on lights etc); when they are both running without me changing things it runs as noted above.
Any ideas? I'm thinking maybe this wasn't such a great buy after all Crying (if only I was skilled enough to work this out myself!)

Thanks!


Hi Dimi,

Q. Are the lights on when the loco runs badly, as I had a fault on one where the loco ran as you decsribed, but only when the lights on. This was a defective decoder.

Q. Have you remove the rotor and checked for carbon build up on the rotor contacts, as any oily carbon deposits can short out the rotor contacts and cause erratic running. Eventually if left like that, can overheat & completely melt the whole rotor contact part. This is usually a result of over oiling.

As far as wire colours for the lights, the Marklin colour scheme is Grey = Front light, Yellow = Rear light, Orange = common wire for lights & Functions.

Cheers,
Brian.
Brian
Yaasan's Desktop Station/Railuino & Marklin MS2, DB Era III/IV Diesel & Steam, ESU Loksound/Lokpilot & Lokprogrammer, Marklin mSD, Tam Valley Depot Octopus III Servo Controller.
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Offline Dimi194  
#44 Posted : 21 April 2014 06:58:57(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: Mulldog Lemon Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Sorry for the confusion-I finally worked it out! It has one of the 'more advanced' DELTA chips with the two switches that control vmax and accel/braking delay. The previous owner had the breaking one fully turned so that the braking delay was max-a quick turn has fixed that problem.
Thanks for your help; it's now running very well!


As something changed since this post?

Doe you have problems with both locos when running them individually?
Or only when they are ontrack together?

I'm assuming you've checked the basic stuff like clean track and wheels etc.





Yes-it seems to have started running worse, which I don't understand. The Br 41 (the one with the issue) does the same thing whether there are no locos or all locos on the track, and the other locos are perfectly fine.
Yes, the wheels and track is clean (I might try and give the wheels another scrub just in case)
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
User is suspended until 23/03/4752 12:54:35(UTC) Mulldog Lemon  
#45 Posted : 21 April 2014 07:06:58(UTC)
Mulldog Lemon

Australia   
Joined: 27/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 635
Check Brian's post also.

IF this new problem started after the oiling, then that's where I'd be looking first.
UserPostedImage
Offline Dimi194  
#46 Posted : 21 April 2014 07:21:05(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: Lollo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
More problems/issues...Confused
After running the loco more, 2 things have started happening;
1. The loco runs jerkily (as in, it seems to rev faster, then slow down, then faster again-sometimes almost coming to a stop before continuing). I already oiled it, and have tried replacing the brushes to no avail-methinks it's the decoder, as I can't find any physical reason for the strangeness.
Could it be that that MS2 can register 128 speed steps, yet the decoder only has 27? I checked the settings and the MS2 is set to detect MM2, mfx, DCC...
2. When adjusting another loco, it stutters and its lights flicker and the jerking becomes very pronounced. This only happens when adjusting another loco (speed, switching on lights etc); when they are both running without me changing things it runs as noted above.
Any ideas? I'm thinking maybe this wasn't such a great buy after all Crying (if only I was skilled enough to work this out myself!)

Thanks!


Hi Dimi,

Q. Are the lights on when the loco runs badly, as I had a fault on one where the loco ran as you decsribed, but only when the lights on. This was a defective decoder.

Q. Have you remove the rotor and checked for carbon build up on the rotor contacts, as any oily carbon deposits can short out the rotor contacts and cause erratic running. Eventually if left like that, can overheat & completely melt the whole rotor contact part. This is usually a result of over oiling.

As far as wire colours for the lights, the Marklin colour scheme is Grey = Front light, Yellow = Rear light, Orange = common wire for lights & Functions.

Cheers,
Brian.


Thanks Brian and Mulldog!

In terms of your first question, I can't seem to tell if having the lights off/on makes a difference (however, because I haven't fixed the lighting issue mentioned earlier yet-waiting to send it to my dealer-the lights are still flickering when in the 'off' position).
The jerkiness seems to get worse as the loco warms up, which makes me think it is the second one (I only put 1 drop of oil where the manual says I swear!!). Do you have a diagram/is there another thread that shows how to do that? I can't say it's something I've tried myself to complete.
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
Offline H0  
#47 Posted : 21 April 2014 08:49:50(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
Could it be that that MS2 can register 128 speed steps, yet the decoder only has 27?
There are only 14 speed steps with MM protocol as used by Märklin. The MS2 only supports 14 speed steps, the 6090 decoder only supports 14 speed steps.
MM with 27 speed steps is implemented in the decoder and sometimes in the controller, but track protocol only uses 14 speed steps.
I cannot think of any MS2 misconfigurations that lead to uneven running.

Probably an oiling problem: too little oil or too much oil (or both at the same time at different spots).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Dimi194  
#48 Posted : 22 April 2014 04:02:38(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lollo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dimi194 Go to Quoted Post
More problems/issues...Confused
After running the loco more, 2 things have started happening;
1. The loco runs jerkily (as in, it seems to rev faster, then slow down, then faster again-sometimes almost coming to a stop before continuing). I already oiled it, and have tried replacing the brushes to no avail-methinks it's the decoder, as I can't find any physical reason for the strangeness.
Could it be that that MS2 can register 128 speed steps, yet the decoder only has 27? I checked the settings and the MS2 is set to detect MM2, mfx, DCC...
2. When adjusting another loco, it stutters and its lights flicker and the jerking becomes very pronounced. This only happens when adjusting another loco (speed, switching on lights etc); when they are both running without me changing things it runs as noted above.
Any ideas? I'm thinking maybe this wasn't such a great buy after all Crying (if only I was skilled enough to work this out myself!)

Thanks!


Hi Dimi,

Q. Are the lights on when the loco runs badly, as I had a fault on one where the loco ran as you decsribed, but only when the lights on. This was a defective decoder.

Q. Have you remove the rotor and checked for carbon build up on the rotor contacts, as any oily carbon deposits can short out the rotor contacts and cause erratic running. Eventually if left like that, can overheat & completely melt the whole rotor contact part. This is usually a result of over oiling.

As far as wire colours for the lights, the Marklin colour scheme is Grey = Front light, Yellow = Rear light, Orange = common wire for lights & Functions.

Cheers,
Brian.


Thanks Brian and Mulldog!

In terms of your first question, I can't seem to tell if having the lights off/on makes a difference (however, because I haven't fixed the lighting issue mentioned earlier yet-waiting to send it to my dealer-the lights are still flickering when in the 'off' position).
The jerkiness seems to get worse as the loco warms up, which makes me think it is the second one (I only put 1 drop of oil where the manual says I swear!!). Do you have a diagram/is there another thread that shows how to do that? I can't say it's something I've tried myself to complete.


Okay. More confusion.
I haven't figured out how to open up the motor, so haven't cleaned it, but I was running to to see if it would run jerkily again (it did).
But I assigned f4 (f3 had the same effect) to see what controlling the accel/braking delay would do...
Turns out that the erratic running stops when f4 is engaged-but if I slow the loco to a stop, with f4 on, it still moves, jumping forward at regular intervals with lights flickering (even when in the on position), until f4 is off (then it stops).
All of these things make me feel like the decoder is not working properly... maybe the wiring is more incorrect than just the headlights...
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Offline Lollo  
#49 Posted : 22 April 2014 08:15:40(UTC)
Lollo

New Zealand   
Joined: 22/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 365
Hi Dimi,

Ok, if we assume that the lighting wiring is correct, and you say thye when the light function is off, the lights are on & flickering, this definately might point to a defective decoder.
It would be helpful to see a picture of your decoder where the wires terminate on the decoder, as I have seen some decoders re-wired incorrectly.
These decoders do fail, as I have replaced a few due to similar fault, in fact the last one that was defective was a BR41 (3792) I bought off ebay. Got it cheap though, and I was going to upgrade the decoder anyway.

Cheers,
Brian.

Brian
Yaasan's Desktop Station/Railuino & Marklin MS2, DB Era III/IV Diesel & Steam, ESU Loksound/Lokpilot & Lokprogrammer, Marklin mSD, Tam Valley Depot Octopus III Servo Controller.
Offline H0  
#50 Posted : 22 April 2014 10:29:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Lollo Go to Quoted Post
It would be helpful to see a picture of your decoder where the wires terminate on the decoder, as I have seen some decoders re-wired incorrectly.
Yes, good idea.
It seems the yellow wire goes where the orange wire should be (this would mean the head light is wired correctly).
It seems the violet wire goes where a brown/green wire should be (this would mean F2 controls the smoke generator).

The decoder is a 6090x type and F4 should control acceleration and braking delay.

Long distance diagnosis are difficult, but if the decoder shows some weird behaviour with F4 on and other weird behaviour with F4 off then maybe there's something wrong with the decoder.

F4 should have no effect on problems caused by incorrect wiring.
Regards
Tom
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