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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 16 July 2012 06:28:28(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi all,

having almost completed my task of re-creating the overheadsystem and also getting power supply from it, how many of our members have or would consider to install such a system ?
When I first contempleted the idea, we had no electric trains in Perth to get some sort of idea how it is all put together and the instruction booklet from Sommerfeldt at the time was useful but for some reasons didn't give me the reason behind it why does a mast go there and why does the wire go under or over when they cross each other and many more questions arose and very little was answered at the time.

In menatime the system was abandoned but so was the layout it self and than we received our first electric suburban trains I was able to cope some of the design and one could also understand and eventually work the reason behind it: why is done this way.
I'm far from being an example of how to build it but I found out the basic principals.

With the last part being done I've found this section to be more difficult than the rest and it lays within the sharp curves on this section.
I treid to get awy of placing a mast every 60mm or so (would have looked like a metal forest) but at the same time you can't get away from it as the wire has to cover the allowance of the pantograph wiper.
With other words having sharp curves such as R1 or R2 makes life or more work a bit more difficult.

there are of course different options which overhead system if any you decide to use.

as mentioned before there are some advantages (if you call it that) but there are of course disadvantages, such as getting in the way, having free access, removing tracks in future, getting carriages back onto the track after derailing or the pantograph gets somehow tangeld up and there is an extra cost (not cheap) to install such a system

comments would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Online RayF  
#2 Posted : 16 July 2012 07:30:06(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,979
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi John,

After many years of operating without catenary I took the plunge last year and designed a system of overhead lines for my layout. I decided to tackle it in two stages. The first stage was the electrification of the inner main line, the station loop, and the goods yard. The second stage was intended to be the outer main line and the crossovers linking to the inner main line, plus some of the engine shed area, which is still under construction. From the beginning I decided not to run the system "live", and continue to power the locos off the track.

I used the Marklin catenary handbook, together with Viessmann instructions found online. This enabled me to get an idea how it all goes together.

After some research, I settled on the Viessmann system, which is essentially the same as the Marklin system, but a bit cheaper and more flexible as it has more parts available. I bought the starter kit + other pieces I needed for my phase one. Over the space of a week or so I installed all of my phase one. After a few weeks of operations, I decided to postpone phase two indefinitely. I will review the decision every year or so.

These are my observations, which will hopefully explain my decision.

1. Electric locomotives look much better running with pantographs up. The added realism makes it worthwhile adding catenary to a certain point.
2. It takes a certain amount of "fiddling" to get the geometry right. Even today I cannot run some locomotives with unusual pantograph arrangements without the pantographs falling off the wire on some curves.
3. R1 curves require the use of short sections of wire and therefore closer mast spacing. This does not leave much leeway for other lineside accessories such as signals etc.
4. On R1 curves I placed the masts on the inside of the curve as recommended in the catenary instructions. Now I cannot run coaches longer than 27cm without them scraping the masts.
5. Cleaning the areas of track under catenary is virtually impossible. I have experimented with cleaning pads on long handles, track cleaning cars, etc. Nothing is really satisfactory, therefore my running is not always as smooth as it used to be.
6. It is very difficult to place items of stock on the track under the wire. I always intended to leave some areas free of catenary. I decided that the goods yard would only be electrified in the reception siding. The other sidings would therefore be available for placing trains on the track. These sidings would be shunted by steam or diesel locos.

Here are a couple of photos of my current electrified track:

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline tiono  
#3 Posted : 16 July 2012 08:00:09(UTC)
tiono

Singapore   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: SG
I run exclusively steam and electric locomotives, no diesel. And I love overhead-wire (catenary) since it adds realism into the lay out, despite of all the inconveniences and cost.
I use Marklin's mast and catenary (the old Marklin catenary was actually a stamped metal, not really a wire). Then I heard about Sommerfeldt, tried several masts, it is an excellent system, but I am too lazy to replace all of the masts.
Several years ago, I replaced all of Marklin's catenary wire with bus-bar wire from Belden. Experimenting using AWG-22, 26, 30 wire. The AWG-30 is quite thin at just 0.2 mm diameter, it gives a closer look to realism, but difficult to install and need maintenance. It will snap after sometime of usage. At the end, I settle with AWG-26 (0.4 mm diameter).
Sommerfeldt wire is 0.5mm (Profi model). If I get a chance to overhaul my lay-out in the future, I will definitely use Sommerfeldt.

Another thing to note:
- if you're running full-length 1:87 scale modern coaches (30.3 cm length), the placement of mast on curved tracks, especially R1, must be around 5mm farther than usually suggested by most catenary guide books.
- if you're supplying power to locomotives via catenary, most of the problem will be the reliability of contact points between section of wire. I prefer to solder those contacts.
Offline hennabm  
#4 Posted : 16 July 2012 11:06:52(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,580
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi

building my layout at the moment (as per my thread) and this will use powered catenary using stock M products.ThumpUp

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 16 July 2012 11:20:22(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Ray cleaning the track or how to clean the track is another good point or a hinderance of doing so.

Since I've designed a pickupshoe with a diamond sandpaper on it, I've solved one problem and also have converted a BR 103 (temporarely with snadpaper pantographs which most you wont be needing.
The track itself I have the same diamond sandpaper in a shape of a pick up shoe but slightly wider and I use a ruler, which has a hole on one side and I place the slider into it (soldered a screw onto the slider) by placing the slider side ways I can clean both tracks at the same time.

With new modules coming on board soon, I'll be getting continues copper wire and the task will than to solder the vertical supports.
with the bottom wire being under tension and the top wire has to be shaped or bend to a degree my intension is sosdering the top wire on both ends of the masts achieving an arch and than solder the vertical supports similar to your crossspan. (Sommerfeldt)
another benefit I've found is there are less interruptions at turnouts.

All my wires are 0.71mm and I will stay with this diameter.

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline hxmiesa  
#6 Posted : 16 July 2012 13:35:38(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,368
Location: Spain
I use the old type Maerklin masts (and compatibles), but with a thinner-looking caternary wire ("Aneste"), which is compatible with M´s stamped sheet metal wires, but is in fact made of thin soldered copper thread.
It can be bend freely, and so I have no problem with the wire going outside of specs in curves, neither do I have to place a mast every 60mm. -But of course; it looks stupid when an overhead wire follows an R1 curve in the air. But I can live with that, as I hardly have any R1 curves on my layout. Most are slim switches and flex-track.
Sharper curves (R2) are hidden in tunnels, and I dont install overhead wires there; The first and last mast in a tunnel is raised 10-20mm, allowing for a soft run-in and run-out of the pantos.
Obviously I dont power the wire, -it is just for looks.

So, as a plug FOR overhead wires; You simply have to see a swiss croc negotiating the wire with its pantos, slowly crawling along the track. It´s beautiful seeing how the pantos flexes up and down with the small variation in height there always are, and see it pass the "forrest" of green masts. It just adds so much more atmosphere!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Western Pacific  
#7 Posted : 16 July 2012 14:56:19(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 774
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
On my new layout I plan for having catenary, but like Henrik only for show. I may choose to have a line or two without, in particular if I'll use it for US models and double stack container trains, but if such a line is built, then I would hesitate to also send trains hauled by European diesels on. The majority of lines would though have catenary, including over my turntable. I have a large collection of electric engines and EMUs (e.g. TGV, Thalys, ICE, X2000, but also DB 420) and I'd like to run them with the pantograph(s) raised. In addition to the "US diesel line" I have some ideas about an electrified single track line for heavy iron ore trains hauled by LKAB class Iore and Dm3 (both models from Roco) and I may also put some continental ore trains with DB 151 double heading on that line. My 3015 croc had some difficulties on steep grades on my old layout, but if it can handle the grades on this "iron ore line", then it will be used there as well. To summarize, I believe the majority of my trains will be hauled by electric engines and that means that the lion share of the layout will have catenary.

(I have a few steam engines and they will probably mostly be in "museum trains" and therefore mostly, if not always be run under catenary).

I haven't decided yet, but I'll go for either Märklin's or Viessmann's catenary systems and since they are compatible, I may even go for a combination of both.
Offline river6109  
#8 Posted : 16 July 2012 15:23:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
another benefit, may be for some members is if you run the power via the overhead wire you could also buy DC locos, with other words, locos without a slider.

There are sometimes interesting locos but only come in DC and to some extend Trix locos.

Just a thought

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kbvrod  
#9 Posted : 16 July 2012 16:00:46(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,596
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
John,if you take any loks/trains off the layout to set up new ones,.....leave an area with no catenary,.....trust me!Wink

Dr D
Offline NZMarklinist  
#10 Posted : 16 July 2012 16:21:54(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,360
Location: Auckland NZ
Hi All
We use the (new) Marklin Catenery on our AMC modules, and it looks the part when fully installed.
We do specify a power mast per module/per line, but havent used it as yet for power supply, at all.

The Marklin Catenery is made by Viesssman, and the parts are interchangeable. Differences are the M masts are a more pleasing/realistic, lighter green colour IMHO, and the M wires have a dark anodising on them which looks way better than shiny silver wire.

I deffinitely advocate combining M & V Catenary, the Viessmann wire tensioners are a must for realism as are a few other Viessmann items. ThumpUp

I am going to use the new Marklin Catenary on my new layout, whilst I'd like to use Sommerfelt it is more expensive, & I like the convenience of one system for the two layouts. That said I think quite a few items of the Sommerfelt system could be combined with the M & V systems. The Sommerfelt wire needs aging as of course does the V ThumbDown
Nothing to stop anyone buying the V system and using only M wire tho Wink The Catenery handbook and catalogue detail, is good info for mast positioning with Marklin Track.

That said our good friend Jacques Vuye told me years ago that "Sommefelt Catenery is the best, and with their bolted thru metal masts, you can lift a layout with it"
ETE Bay Area use Sommefelt on their Modules.
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline NZMarklinist  
#11 Posted : 16 July 2012 16:27:03(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,360
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
John,if you take any loks/trains off the layout to set up new ones,.....leave an area with no catenary,.....trust me!Wink

Dr D


Yeah Kev, my BTW and inner line will not be under wire Wink Smile
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by NZMarklinist
Offline Ian555  
#12 Posted : 16 July 2012 16:27:58(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 18,811
Location: Scotland
Hi all,

Lot's of interesting points about the use of an overhead system....thanks. ThumpUp

Ian

Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#13 Posted : 16 July 2012 17:45:08(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,138
Location: San Francisco, California
I am at odds with catenary, as I love it but it causes trouble and can detract from the look of the layout in cramped areas.

The look is fantastic, but the functionality and accessibility to parts of the layout can make it a big headache. I look at it a few ways:

1: For anyone with a "busy" layout I would use the Marklin/Viessmann style system, or even better the old Marklin system. It is far easier to assemble, but also easy to remove a few pieces when you need access to the layout or repair a crash. Sommerfeldt is great until you need to reach 2+ feet from the edge of your layout to repair a fiasco in the middle of a big yard...

2: For those with a "simpler" or "cleaner" layout, or a modular/around the wall design, no reason not to go Sommerfeldt. It looks better, and adds a fun dimension to the layout construction. As mentioned before, just avoid it if you can where there are yards or sections that will require "touching" the layout. Its a sad but true fact, and will save you headaches. Also, remember that like John mentioned, visually in a yard or dense area of trackage it just becomes a mess of wire that takes away from the beauty of the trains... (and costs a lot to install!)

3: For operation, I'd only power it to add DC capability to a layout with AC trackage as you will always have a better connection through the rails. The DC operation overhead is a really nice bonus though. I'd avoid adding it in as insulated blocks, signals etc.. More complicated wiring/functionality = a headache to build and more problems when running

4: That all being said, for my future HO scale layout (ideas for which are brewing) I'll be using Viessmann and running my few DC locos from it, and in certain areas I'll only install poles (no wire, but I can snap it in if I feel like it later) for accessibility.

For my Bemo HOm, I'll use the Sommerfeldt, as it is primarily a single track main line with simple stations; thus making the trains accessible, the catenary simple and "clean" looking, and conveniently sommerfeldt is the only (affordable) choice for HOm anyways Flapper

In the end, it depends if your interest is modelling or operating. If you like to build go sommerfeldt, if you like to play use one of the snap together systems...
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline kbvrod  
#14 Posted : 16 July 2012 18:24:20(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,596
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,

Quote:
Yeah Kev, my BTW and inner line will not be under wire Wink Smile


Good call bro!ThumpUp Smile

Ok,a few things,...

First experience with catanary was Sommerfeldt for 2 ETE modules.Of course the 'theme' of my modules was(in the back) a Bw.Guess what?The only place with no overhead,on the modules, was the Bw.Where did everyone want to set up the next trainConfused You are correct.Laugh

Next:tension with Sommerfeldt,extra tension was required(especially on modules!)I wrote about here before but now it will cost you all a pint(each) to find out!
LOL

Last:If you going to run E-loks and have cat and not have contact between the two,......never mind.

Dr D

Edited by user 16 July 2012 20:29:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline river6109  
#15 Posted : 16 July 2012 19:49:54(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
John,if you take any loks/trains off the layout to set up new ones,.....leave an area with no catenary,.....trust me!Wink

Dr D


I take your point, although my layout is designed what's on the layout this is what you see.
putting new trains onto the track is not an easy task and furthermore having Roco 4 pin electrical couplings they not alwys clip together so you have to take them in your hand (2 carriages) and do them manually and than try and put them on the track (606mm)Cursing

John

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#16 Posted : 16 July 2012 20:02:04(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post



The look is fantastic, but the functionality and accessibility to parts of the layout can make it a big headache. I look at it a few ways:





3: For operation, I'd only power it to add DC capability to a layout with AC trackage as you will always have a better connection through the rails. The DC operation overhead is a really nice bonus though. I'd avoid adding it in as insulated blocks, signals etc.. More complicated wiring/functionality = a headache to build and more problems when running



My view is the opposite, I find the power from the overhead more reliable.
Some of my catanary is over 20 years old. although it has weathered and was subjected to acidity, I now have bought it back whereas the loco has only 1 pantho up.

Sofar the curves are concerned, my mainline consists of k-tracks 2241, 2251 going from left to right starting under the bridge and on the other side (viaduct) it has 2274 and 2205 flexi track.

John

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline kbvrod  
#17 Posted : 16 July 2012 20:46:44(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,596
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
John,if you take any loks/trains off the layout to set up new ones,.....leave an area with no catenary,.....trust me!Wink

Dr D


I take your point, although my layout is designed what's on the layout this is what you see.
putting new trains onto the track is not an easy task and furthermore having Roco 4 pin electrical couplings they not alwys clip together so you have to take them in your hand (2 carriages) and do them manually and than try and put them on the track (606mm)Cursing

John


Back up John,...
Maybe time to build a TrainSafe type unit,so things can roll of and on,...

Dr D

Offline kimballthurlow  
#18 Posted : 16 July 2012 22:15:46(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,270
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi John and all,

My layout of 4 continuous circuits, was designed for catenary on 2 of them, and 2 without catenary, all un-powered, and just for show. I also have a staging track interconnecting with and without, where I can change a train from electric to non-electric locos, or vice versa. I really love my catenary, and get a lot of joy in seeing the electric locos running under the wire.

I purchased all Marklin components, starting with a starter catenary set. I can run electric trains with catenary up, with very few problems. Occasionally I get a panto caught, but a little adjustment (usually bending in or out) of the wire soon fixes that.

Regarding putting locos on an off, you definitely need a very accessible length of catenary track, at less than arms length, preferably close to the baseboard edge. That will make on and off easy, if there is no other scenery or masts between you and the track.

Another method which I have not used, is used by Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg, where the pantos are tied with thin cotton or nylon, so the panto does not actually touch the catenary wire. It still looks like operating pantos under the wire. This saves a lot of hassles on a big operation.

Here is an example of the two outer circuits on my layout. (For realism, these older locos should be running with BOTH pantos up. The drivers will be scolded when they get back to the depot).

http://www.qldrail.net/altkloster/e91-800.jpg

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline NZMarklinist  
#19 Posted : 17 July 2012 04:25:22(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,360
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
John,if you take any loks/trains off the layout to set up new ones,.....leave an area with no catenary,.....trust me!Wink

Dr D


I take your point, although my layout is designed what's on the layout this is what you see.
putting new trains onto the track is not an easy task and furthermore having Roco 4 pin electrical couplings they not alwys clip together so you have to take them in your hand (2 carriages) and do them manually and than try and put them on the track (606mm)Cursing

John


Back up John,...
Maybe time to build a TrainSafe type unit,so things can roll of and on,...

Dr D



John, at least a siding without wire at the front of your layout somewhere Wink
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline NZMarklinist  
#20 Posted : 17 July 2012 04:33:37(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,360
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi John and all,



Another method which I have not used, is used by Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg, where the pantos are tied with thin cotton or nylon, so the panto does not actually touch the catenary wire. It still looks like operating pantos under the wire. This saves a lot of hassles on a big operation.

http://www.qldrail.net/altkloster/e91-800.jpg

regards
Kimball


Lovely photo Kimball, give your elok fuhrers a break tho, its not QLD Rail Laugh

The MiWuLa thing, even seven years ago didn't look convincing to my, then, untrained eye, furthermore they didn't have the pantos tied up on a lot of their Eloks ThumbDown I'll see if I have a photo somewhere.
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline NZMarklinist  
#21 Posted : 17 July 2012 04:38:35(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,360
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: NZMarklinist Go to Quoted Post
Hi All
I deffinitely advocate combining M & V Catenary, the Viessmann wire tensioners are a must for realism as are a few other Viessmann items. ThumpUp

.


What I'm suggesting here is use M masts and wire but the V accesories where Marklin don't have them, ie the wire tensioners et al Wink ThumpUp
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline Marius in Africa  
#22 Posted : 17 July 2012 16:41:30(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 348
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
Originally Posted by: NZMarklinist Go to Quoted Post
Hi All
............. and the M wires have a dark anodising on them which looks way better than shiny silver wire............The Sommerfelt wire needs aging as of course does the V.......


Which method is best suited to age the Viessmann catenary wire?

Thanks in advance.

Marius
Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
Online RayF  
#23 Posted : 17 July 2012 18:04:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,979
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Nice photo, Kimball!

You can see the similarities and the differences with my photo showing Viessmann catenary. The Marklin wire is darker, and the masts seem to be a different shade of green.

I read somewhere that the Viessmann wire is also slightly thinner than the Marklin equivalent, but it's difficult to tell from the photo.
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Online RayF  
#24 Posted : 17 July 2012 18:13:37(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,979
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: NZMarklinist Go to Quoted Post
Hi All
....

The Marklin Catenery is made by Viesssman, and the parts are interchangeable. Differences are the M masts are a more pleasing/realistic, lighter green colour IMHO, and the M wires have a dark anodising on them which looks way better than shiny silver wire.

....



Glen, I have to dispute your statement about the "shiny silver wire". The truth is it's not actually shiny silver, but more of a light grey colour. It definitely does not reflect light.

I also believe the Viessmann wire is thinner in gauge than the Marklin wire, making it easier on the eye, in my opinion. If you compare my photo with Kimball's I think you can see what I mean.

Marklin recommend, in their catenary handbook, that their wire be painted a dark green colour, for realism. I guess this could be done for the Viessmann wire as well, but I have not felt the need.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Western Pacific  
#25 Posted : 17 July 2012 19:27:21(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 774
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Thanks Ray for the comparing arrangement of pictures.

Then about the colour of the overhead wire. The wire itself is made from a copper alloy, meaning that when it oxidizes it first becomes dark brown and then later light green (verdigris). So depending on age of the wire it could either be dark or light coloured. Perhaps it is this latter fact that is behind Viessmann's light grey on their wires. (I've actually studied the overhead wires - from a safe distance, for instance from bridges - at and around the Stockholm Central station).

Offline kimballthurlow  
#26 Posted : 17 July 2012 22:56:52(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,270
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post


......
I also believe the Viessmann wire is thinner in gauge than the Marklin wire, making it easier on the eye, in my opinion. If you compare my photo with Kimball's I think you can see what I mean.

Marklin recommend, in their catenary handbook, that their wire be painted a dark green colour, for realism. I guess this could be done for the Viessmann wire as well, but I have not felt the need.

.......



Hi Glen and Ray,

Thanks for the comment.

Same class of loco, good comparison. Your side-on photo earlier, has an even clearer view of the catenary.
What was that class number in Bavarian days?

Yes, the V wire seems to be thinner. For the record, I measured the diameter of the Marklin wire with my Vernier caliper set - it is 0.7mm, or 30/1000 of an inch.


regards
Kimball

Edited by user 17 July 2012 23:14:59(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline river6109  
#27 Posted : 17 July 2012 23:31:50(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,
John,if you take any loks/trains off the layout to set up new ones,.....leave an area with no catenary,.....trust me!Wink

Dr D


I take your point, although my layout is designed what's on the layout this is what you see.
putting new trains onto the track is not an easy task and furthermore having Roco 4 pin electrical couplings they not alwys clip together so you have to take them in your hand (2 carriages) and do them manually and than try and put them on the track (606mm)Cursing

John


Back up John,...
Maybe time to build a TrainSafe type unit,so things can roll of and on,...

Dr D



Kevin wrote:

Back up John,...
Maybe time to build a TrainSafe type unit,so things can roll of and on,...

You try to put 2 carriages (606mm) between masts of 500mm distance, I agree your back goes up.

carriages from Märklin (24 + 27cm long shouldn't be an impossible task to do and as I said some compromises have to be done, having an overheadsystem or you need to do a bit of fiddly work.
Another point is, who takes their trains off the track every night ? and if you do ok a Trainsafe roll on - off unit could be the answer but they are not cheap.

I'm not trying to score points, I'm just explaining my experiences over the last 20 years or so.

The whole matter about having an overheadsystem is: do you think it is warranted and it is a personal choice if the answer is yes or no.
I'm not shying away from it, it has its down points and everybody can weigh up the cons and pros for themselves and yes there are some inconveniences you will come across but I'm sure we are old enough to cope with them and if you don't want to put up with it, so be it.

Ray's & Kimball photos, I assume must give inspirations to some, hey this looks great.

John

Edited by user 17 July 2012 23:45:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#28 Posted : 17 July 2012 23:43:03(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi,

the colour of the wire:

Sommerfeldt wires are copper glazed and this does give a new and shiny appearance at or for the first 6 month or so however it doese weather over time like wood.
on another forum it was mentioned my soldering points are to bold and this is the same reason, you have tiny clips (cross span) with the vertical holding arm for the upper wire.
There are 2 cilps where the wire gets fed through and the same with thewse shiny bits and the solder will weather over a period of time and the contrast will diminish and therefore it will not stand out at all.
the soldering amount also depends on the type of soldering iron you use.

John

Edited by user 19 July 2012 09:47:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#29 Posted : 19 July 2012 09:52:14(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,777
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
hi everyone,

here is my complicated system
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Online RayF  
#30 Posted : 19 July 2012 10:27:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,979
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post


....

What was that class number in Bavarian days?

....

regards
Kimball


Hi KImball,

I believe these were classed as EG5 by the Bavarian railway authorities.
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#31 Posted : 19 July 2012 10:50:02(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 14,006
Location: New Zealand
I have catenary on the older half of my layout. It uses Electrotren masts with the old style Marklin wires from Marklin and Electrotren.

I haven't decided whether I will continue with the old style catenary for the newer part of my layout, or whether I'll use the new Marklin/Viessmann catenary.

Kevin's point about leaving a catenary free area to load and unload locos is very valid. It's a pain otherwise!
Offline Dreadnought  
#32 Posted : 19 July 2012 12:33:52(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 274
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I have had catenary on my layouts since my salad days. I use the old Marklin masts and catenary . It fits so well on my old M track. Right now I am rebuilding. So the catenary has not been put up yet. Never fear it will be put back up.
In the analog days I loved having catenary powered locomotives and lighting. I loved the realistic, to my mind, sparks that came off the catenary.
I agree it makes track cleaning more awkward, particularly in yards. Putting coaches and locomotives on is also a problem. Single arm pantographs seem more likely to snag, particularly if going so that the "elbow" is behind the wiper for jthat direction of travel.
Overall, I love the look of it. I love watching the pantographs move with the varying height of the wire. River's video says it all!

What do people recommend for tunnels, continue the catenary, or leave it out? I am afraid of in tunnel snags. How do you transition back to catenary at the tunnel exit when there is no wire in the tunnel?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dreadnought
Online RayF  
#33 Posted : 19 July 2012 12:49:46(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,979
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
I have had catenary on my layouts since my salad days. I use the old Marklin masts and catenary . It fits so well on my old M track. Right now I am rebuilding. So the catenary has not been put up yet. Never fear it will be put back up.
In the analog days I loved having catenary powered locomotives and lighting. I loved the realistic, to my mind, sparks that came off the catenary.
I agree it makes track cleaning more awkward, particularly in yards. Putting coaches and locomotives on is also a problem. Single arm pantographs seem more likely to snag, particularly if going so that the "elbow" is behind the wiper for jthat direction of travel.
Overall, I love the look of it. I love watching the pantographs move with the varying height of the wire. River's video says it all!

What do people recommend for tunnels, continue the catenary, or leave it out? I am afraid of in tunnel snags. How do you transition back to catenary at the tunnel exit when there is no wire in the tunnel?


A couple of manufacturers make special catenary for tunnels. It uses solid bar for the wire and chunky supports.

This is the Viessmann version:

UserPostedImage

Alternatively, you can leave the tunnel with no catenary, but then you need a ramp, or sloping wire, at the exit, to lead the pantograph onto the wire again.
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline petestra  
#34 Posted : 19 July 2012 13:25:10(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 26/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4,264
Location: washington,dc
Good video, John. The catenary is fabulous! PeterThumpUp
Offline cookee_nz  
#35 Posted : 20 July 2012 03:14:42(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,013
Location: Wellington
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I have catenary on the older half of my layout. It uses Electrotren masts with the old style Marklin wires from Marklin and Electrotren.

I haven't decided whether I will continue with the old style catenary for the newer part of my layout, or whether I'll use the new Marklin/Viessmann catenary.

Kevin's point about leaving a catenary free area to load and unload locos is very valid. It's a pain otherwise!


Agreed about a loading area. I LOVE Catenary, and the display layout is meant to have it but it was removed well before I acquired it.

It also makes the layout much more fragile if it is intended to be displayed or moved semi-regularly.

I thought I would make a start with the inner oval and yard on mine, and maybe the middle oval but it would need to be short-ish Eloks to look the best. That would leave the outer oval free for loading/unloading, although the idea of adding a branch off one side of the layout with an interface to the NZ modular layout specs holds some appeal - or a branch off both sides, a layout within a layout would be cool.

Height differences may be a challenge for that idea but.

And the problem of getting the middle oval to cross the outer for a double-through-line. Hmmmm, where's that thinking cap?

BigGrin
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline rhtastro  
#36 Posted : 20 July 2012 05:35:06(UTC)
rhtastro


Joined: 19/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,754
Location: Northern California,
Interesting discussion. I may put an overhead line in some day for a model of the 'California high speed train' that's now about to be built. It may be DC unless M gets their act together and actually produces a model. Otherwise it's steam and diesel for me. For those of you modelling European trains the overhead lines do add much more realism. I had a couple of overheads for a Z setup in the 70's when most of the stock was DB. It was all Marklin and worked quite well.

Sir Bob
Robert's trains insured by Colt 45--Marklin Club of NorCal, Founder and Sole Member--- Robert's photos may be used as public domain-all copyrights waved
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"-T.Jefferson
Offline NZMarklinist  
#37 Posted : 21 July 2012 07:34:16(UTC)
NZMarklinist

New Zealand   
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,360
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
I have had catenary on my layouts since my salad days.

In the analog days I loved having catenary powered locomotives and lighting. I loved the realistic, to my mind, sparks that came off the catenary.
I agree it makes track cleaning more awkward, particularly in yards. Putting coaches and locomotives on is also a problem. Single arm pantographs seem more likely to snag, particularly if going so that the "elbow" is behind the wiper for jthat direction of travel.
Overall, I love the look of it. I love watching the pantographs move with the varying height of the wire. River's video says it all!

What do people recommend for tunnels, continue the catenary, or leave it out? I am afraid of in tunnel snags. How do you transition back to catenary at the tunnel exit when there is no wire in the tunnel?


Me too Wink ThumpUp

My old childhood layout was not totally under wire and I had a siding at the front for loading and unloading, but I didn't have to change the trains as I only had three, with four Loks, the RailBus being one, and the siding mostly served as a Lok park for one of the three "main ones". ( Pacfic Steamer, V200 & E41)

For my new Layout, I puchased some "Noch" Tunnel Catenery from Lokshop when they were getting rid of the last of their stock, earlier this year, because I too am concerned about snags, especially where my E103 is concerned with those motorised Pantos. There will be a lot going on in my tunnels and mountains, including connections to the double track spiral going down to the Schatten Bahnhof where I do not want to bother with Catenery. I am thinking of bringing the trains up and around to the front of the layout where I will manually put the Pantos up and then let them run around the layout. When and if, I introduce some sort of computor control, I'm not sure what I'll do then to be honest. Maybe only steam and diesel on the Computor roster Wink
That said I have ELoks/Trains ranging from Era II - V Scared
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline old toot  
#38 Posted : 21 July 2012 10:50:43(UTC)
old toot

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 490
Location: christchurch, canterbury
hi all
some great comments from all
the marklin wire is mainly the differance is the anodising finish
which makes it look a little thicker.
The other point for the planning side is i find from the shop
that many look at the wire packs prices but often dont realise
most of the marklin packs have five wires where as most of the viessman
are three's
so for instance you can look as a marklin pack for say 20.00 which brings it back to 4.00 a section
this can make a big differance when working your costing out.
We are seeing more people adding overhead to their layouts
all the best
'bryan old toot
were we pickit, packit and postit
Online RayF  
#39 Posted : 21 July 2012 15:21:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,979
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: old toot Go to Quoted Post
hi all
some great comments from all
the marklin wire is mainly the differance is the anodising finish
which makes it look a little thicker.
The other point for the planning side is i find from the shop
that many look at the wire packs prices but often dont realise
most of the marklin packs have five wires where as most of the viessman
are three's
so for instance you can look as a marklin pack for say 20.00 which brings it back to 4.00 a section
this can make a big differance when working your costing out.
We are seeing more people adding overhead to their layouts
all the best
'bryan old toot


Hi Bryan,

What made the big difference to me price-wise was that Viessmann makes a starter set, whereas Marklin no longer makes one. With the starter set from Viessmann I made a saving of about 20-30% over buying all Marklin. If it hadn't been for the starter set the difference would have been quite small and I would have probably bought Marklin, even though Viessmann makes more parts and accessories for their catenary.
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline joyofmarklin  
#40 Posted : 21 July 2012 17:10:15(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 24/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: phoenix
Glare Excellent advise as I begin to assemble my train set. I am thinking of running the power to the catenary by a separate power transformer so that I can control it independently.
Great photos of train sets something to aspire to!!!!

Chris
Offline Marius in Africa  
#41 Posted : 21 July 2012 18:00:15(UTC)
Marius in Africa

South Africa   
Joined: 05/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 348
Location: Boksburg, Gauteng
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
I have had catenary on my layouts since my salad days. I use the old Marklin masts and catenary . It fits so well on my old M track. Right now I am rebuilding. So the catenary has not been put up yet. Never fear it will be put back up.
In the analog days I loved having catenary powered locomotives and lighting. I loved the realistic, to my mind, sparks that came off the catenary.
I agree it makes track cleaning more awkward, particularly in yards. Putting coaches and locomotives on is also a problem. Single arm pantographs seem more likely to snag, particularly if going so that the "elbow" is behind the wiper for jthat direction of travel.
Overall, I love the look of it. I love watching the pantographs move with the varying height of the wire. River's video says it all!

What do people recommend for tunnels, continue the catenary, or leave it out? I am afraid of in tunnel snags. How do you transition back to catenary at the tunnel exit when there is no wire in the tunnel?


A couple of manufacturers make special catenary for tunnels. It uses solid bar for the wire and chunky supports.

This is the Viessmann version:

UserPostedImage

Alternatively, you can leave the tunnel with no catenary, but then you need a ramp, or sloping wire, at the exit, to lead the pantograph onto the wire again.


Or you can make your own mounting / bracketing, depending on the construction methods used on your layout.

Edited by user 22 July 2012 17:43:06(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Marius in Africa attached the following image(s):
Tunnel catenary.JPG
Marius in Africa

HO, ECoS 2, Märklin C-track, any country, any design, any era & any brand which i like.
Offline Dreadnought  
#42 Posted : 21 July 2012 20:33:33(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 274
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I should perhaps be putting this in the layout construction area. I will try here however, and see if it gets an answer.

Reading this thread over, and the answers to my question, I think I want to not have catenary in tunnels. I prefer to do a transition to no catenary, and start again at the tunnel exit. How do you set this up so there are no snags? How do you transition from nothing to the right height evenly? What do you use?
Offline kimballthurlow  
#43 Posted : 22 July 2012 02:00:26(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,270
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post

..to do a transition to no catenary, and start again at the tunnel exit. How do you set this up so there are no snags? How do you transition from nothing to the right height evenly? What do you use?


Hi DN,

The wire is taken from the last normal post (perhaps just inside the tunnel entrance), to a higher post (made out of anything to hand**) so that as the loco enters the tunnel, the pantograph will spring to full height.

Then at the outgoing exit to the tunnel, the reverse applies. Again you set up the wire higher inside, so the pantograph will be gradually depressed to wire height as the loco exits the tunnel.

**I must say, that while this method sounds great, I myself used normal Marklin catenary and posts inside the tunnel. It is an additional small cost for a few metres of the necessary items. And I dont have any hassles.

Figuring how to mount the wire higher, so it stays above the centre of the track inside the tunnel, will take some ingenuity in my opinion.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Dreadnought  
#44 Posted : 22 July 2012 03:16:15(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 274
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Thank you for your help. You have hit the nail. The head, I keep puzzling over how to mount the higher wire. Not only keeping it centered over the track,, but how to get it to join the mast so as to not snag as the pantograph comes down to the level of the regular catenary. Your way may be the best in the long run.
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